You are hereHistorical Parousia vs. Theological Parousia
Historical Parousia vs. Theological Parousia
by Roderick Edwards
It is easy enough to make the case from the Bible for the 1st century Parousia, but there is a much more difficult task when it comes to making the case from history. Indeed, even when futurists almost admit the biblical text leads to an understanding of a 1st century fulfillment of Christ’s Return, they will instead run for the foxhole of history where they can bunker down and seem safe. Why then, is there this seemingly great distinction between the historical parousia versus the theological parousia?It is easy enough to make the case from the Bible for the 1st century Parousia, but there is a much more difficult task when it comes to making the case from history. Indeed, even when futurists almost admit the biblical text leads to an understanding of a 1st century fulfillment of Christ’s Return, they will instead run for the foxhole of history where they can bunker down and seem safe. Why then, is there this seemingly great distinction between the historical parousia versus the theological parousia?This has been the discussion hidden away in the comment threads of the article: Jesus’ Promise of a First Century ‘Parousia’ – Not Clear? -- by Walt Hibbard
The excellent and honest question is posed by a Roman Catholic Preterist and PlanetPreterist columnist named Parker. Parker offers five options as to the question, but first he gives us an honest admission.
"I am honest enough to admit that the Parousia never took place in any way recognizable to the people to whom Jesus "returned." I am honest enough to admit that God did not secure the knowledge of the event for the people to whom it happened or for the following generations. Therefore, we can only guess that the return of Jesus Christ" --
(1) wasn't a big deal
(2) wasn't to be personally experienced or remembered by anyone
(3) wasn't a key part of the faith
(4) wasn't to be recorded for later generations to know about
(5) it just never happened at all
"The history of the Parousia is problematic to preterists, futurists, and Christianity. There is no way around it."
I want to applaud Parker for this honest admission. He is not the first to wrestle with this question. I believe J. S. Russell (author of “The Parousia”), Ernest Hampden Cook (editor of the Weymouth Bible translation), and recently Ed Stevens (President of the “International Preterists Association”) have grappled with the issue by coming to the conclusion of a 1st century Rapture. By supposing there was a Rapture, they can assume that the “first rank Christians” were removed from the earth while the “second rank Christians” remained. Now, the so-called “second rank Christians” would supposedly not be as spiritually aware and would instead miss the true nature and impact of the Parousia. Whereas, the Raptured first rank Christian would have completely understood its nature and impact, but they were no longer on earth to tell the tale so it was left up to centuries of second rank Christians who have passed down their confusion from century to century. Thus, their answer to Parker's question.
Now, this article isn’t about the 1st century Rapture theory, so for right now we’ll file the Rapture theory under Parker’s options 2 and 4, but I wanted to go over it to show how some preterists have dealt with Parker's question.
As 21st century Christians we are far removed from what seems like ancient history and thus theological points that are now taken for granted aren’t seen as the almost progressive stepping stones they were. For instance, it may be easy enough to make a theological case for the deity of Christ, or the trinity or justification by faith alone but these widely accepted theological points were not always common. We can look back retrospectively in the texts of the Bible and say, “ah-ha, here is the Deity of Christ!” and “here is the trinity!” and “here is justification by faith alone!” but these things were not always so clearly understood by the Christian community.
As to Parker’s first option, could the same thing be said about the Crucifixion and Resurrection? Those events didn’t seem like big deals to the Jews that just killed Jesus, and definitely not so much to the surrounding Gentiles. The Christians appeared to be just another aberrant Jewish cult. It took many years before it would have a great impact on the world. And according to Roman Catholics, it would be nearly 300+ years before this new “cult” would codify its sacred books (the New Testament). So, why would someone think it so strange that it took another 1700 years for the Christians to catch up with the reality of Christ’s victory? (Though, we can show that throughout history there have been people who have inconsistently understood Christ’s victory)
But perhaps it wasn’t such a “big deal” in the sight of those still confused by a physical mentality. I mean, even in Jesus’ day people were let down by His concepts. They had specific ideas about how the Messiah would come (being preceded by Elijah, conquering the Romans, establishing a physical kingdom), yet Jesus didn’t seem to live up to their expectations. (I submit He surpassed them)
His own disciples seemed to misunderstand Him even after 3.5 years with Him. They asked Him in Acts 1:6 if He was going to now “restore the kingdom to Israel”. Was that ever the plan?
For those expecting fireworks, the transition between the Old and New Covenant seemed to pass rather quietly (if you don’t consider the destruction of God’s typological & geographical symbols – Jerusalem & the Temple as being significant). – So, looking at it that way, maybe it was no big deal.
Next, Parker’s option 2 is much like option 1, that is if it was no big deal no one would really experience it. They would simply seem to pass from life to life in the twinkling of an eye – Hmmm, something to consider when thinking about those verses. Consider your own conversion. Did you see a remarkable change in an instant or did it take a while for it to sink in as to what actually happened to you (being made alive)?
As for option 3 we can easily agree, that at different junctures in Christian history various elements have been more of less “key to faith”. For example, there have been eras where ecclesiastical concerns were thought important. At other times it was important to have all of your soteriological ducks in a row. It was even once a “big deal” as to if you were “baptized correctly” with the correct method of dunking or sprinkling (depending upon your view) and performed by the correct clergy. So, perhaps in this time, eschatological understanding will be “key to our faith” (not so much in the salvific sense but in the relationship with Christ sense).
Option 4 leads the reader to believe there is not much record of the Parousia. Well, it has already been admitted by Parker that we can make a theological (biblical) case for the Parousia at least as an imminent expectation of the 1st century Christians. But we might wonder why right after the Fall of Jerusalem and the Destruction of the Temple we don’t see scores of Christian writers touting those events as proof that Christ was successful and had indeed returned. Would it undermine the faith, validity of the Bible and Sovereignty of God to say the 1st century Christians really didn’t quite understand how these things did really impact Christianity? Were they supposed to suddenly understand everything? Did it undermine the validity of Jesus’ message when the Pharisees and Scribes rejected Him because He didn’t fit their template? (No prophet comes out of Galilee -- John 7:52 or The Messiah will be the [phyiscal] son of David -- Mt 22:42-44) Did it undermine His Kingdom because He seemed to fail to make those people... His very own people understand that HE was the fulfillment of everything they had been reading and doing for thousands of years? This is what the dispensationalists claim, so much so that they say since the Jews failed to accept Jesus as their King, He had to resort to plan B and start the “church”, postpone the kingdom and will at a later time restore the kingdom (as in Acts 1:6) and even the Temple and its rudimentary sacrifices. Is this what we are to believe?
Rather, the Bible itself screams a 1st century fulfillment. History (especially historians like Josephus & Tacitus) unwittingly testify to the fulfillment of these things. Yes, people in general are often unwitting participants in fulfillment of things to which they are unaware of the impact. Perhaps this is what has been happening in history.
This option is the most depressing of them all. If we admit the Bible seems clear about the imminent expectation of the Parousia, and then we say it never happened at all we shall become either confused futurists who twist clear time texts to fit a convoluted paradigm, or we might throw our hands up and become agnostics, or worse atheists.
Instead, I choose to believe that the plan of God continues to unfold. It is like the sails of a ship the moment they are caught by the wind, they come to life but it doesn’t end there – the journey just begins as the vessel moves forward. Far from a deists concept that God brought us to the consummation then dropped out of the scene, instead history is exciting in the now as it is being made. Do I understand all the impacts of it? No. Can I read God’s Word on it? Yes. So the historical realization is often different than the theological realization. History (and our understanding of it) is constantly playing catch up to the theological reality.
Thank you for bringing these important points up Parker.
Standing on the Word of Lord,
Roderick




So...what? Roderick who renounced Preterism and mercilessly attacked Preterists as heterodox and heretics is now back in the fold? And not just back in the fold, but a columnist for, what was it he called this site? Planet Puke?! A columnist for Virgil, the one he complained so loudly was a closet Universalist and who sabotaged peoples computers with viruses? My, my! This is surprising!
**************
Good to review issues from this re-posting of the '04 article.
The internal link to Hibbard's "‘Parousia’ – Not Clear?" article opens to current article listings page.
Search is also redirected.
What gives?
................
G-Juan Wind
Fixed the bad link.
I think my article on the 1st & 2nd Coming gave the answer to this delimna. From Danie's 70 weeks, it easy to see that the first coming of Jesus was the 3 1/2 years of his ministry. I go on to show that the Second Coming of Jesus was the 3 1/2 years that Rome spent destroying of Jerusalem. The Christians knew that Jesus was coming because the events that occurred in 66 AD fulfilled Matthew 24. That's why the Christians got out of Jerusalem before Vespasian came with the Roman armies in 67 AD. I will write another article soon that will show how Matthew 24 was a time table to alert the Christians as to when to get out of Jerusalem before he came. The trumpets were the Feast of Trumpets and the gathering of the elect was in reference to the Feast of Ingathering (Tabernacles).
Eric
Eric Fugett
I am of the opinion that the Kingdom was hidden from those who were never
truly born from above St
I am of the opinion that the Kingdom was hidden from those who were never
truly born from above St. John 3. As a result many who followed Christ never
really did fully see Him. We refer to the Church, to Church History, and the
like as being "The Church." We champion many who may not have
even been true Christians. There is to be a number in the Kingdom likened to the
number of the stars in heaven. That number is still growing. We are still in the
early Church. In this day many marvelous things happen among those who call
themselves Christian. Try to find records of things that have happened over the
last 100 years. I am comparing the printing press and mass communication with
hand written documents from the First century. If we cannot see Christ's Kingdom
today, why should we expect to find any 2000 year old records of it having
arrived.
It is my testimony that I can see Christ and His kingdom in the now. Can you?
We all know about these verses, but do they project a dynamic physically
evident Church?
Luke 12:32 "Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has been pleased to give you the kingdom.
(NIV)
Matt 7:21 "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord,
did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many
miracles?' 23 Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
24 "Therefore everyone who hears these words of mine and puts them into practice is like a wise man who built his house on the rock.
(NIV)
History tells us there were marvelous things happening under the direction of
magicians after this time.
John 10:24 The Jews gathered around him, saying, "How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Christ, tell us plainly."
25 Jesus answered, "I did tell you, but you do not believe. The miracles I do in my Father's name speak for me, 26 but
you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.
(NIV)
James 2:5 Listen, my dear brothers: Has not God chosen those who are poor in the eyes of the world
to be rich in faith and to inherit the kingdom he promised those who love him? 6 But you have insulted the poor.
(NIV)
Matt 23:38 See! Your house is left to you desolate; 39 for I say to you, you shall see Me no more till you say, 'Blessed is He who comes in the name of the LORD!'"
NKJV
John 14:19 "A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also. 20 At that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you. 21 He who has My commandments and keeps them, it is he who loves Me. And he who loves Me will be loved by My Father,
and I will love him and manifest Myself to him." NKJV
2 Tim 1:15 You know that everyone in the province of Asia has deserted
me, including Phygelus and Hermogenes. (NIV)
2 Tim 4:16 At my first defense no one stood with me, but all forsook me. May it not be charged against them.
The Church was elevated, we call it raptured, before the world. They saw it,
yet did not see it. It appears they may have seen it in some sense, and it may
have produced insanity in many, for they ran from acknowledging it and set out
to prove Christianity wrong.
Where is there scriptural evidence of a dynamic, earth moving,
headline making, Church toward the end of the first century? The "True
Israel." There were visible, notable things happening, but they had
to do with Jesus Himself, His earthly ministry. The Church would soon appear to
go underground and even fade from view, giving way to a physical entity we have
since referred to as being "The Church." Christ's Kingdom was not of
that world and it will never be of any earthly situation.
There is reason to believe His Church is present in some sense in what we
call "The Church." There is also some evidence that His Church is not
always in "The Church." This is why we get stuck on the thought of
what Paul's tradition is referring to. WE should know it is an in heart
situation. "The Church" very often has to be called back to following
Christ. It has often been antagonistic toward Christ's kingdom. However, The
true Church always follows Him. It is made up of lively stones. Those
stones have dynamically effected this world for good over and over. Again
- Many true Christians have been persecuted by "The Church."
The positive evidence is there and should be obvious to those who can see
Him.
(My opinion?)
Dear BillyVern, Some excellent points!! Obviously, Parker and others need a historical validation that Jesus is faithful to His Word.
The question posed in Matt.24 has to do with the end of the Jewish Old Covenant age at the return/coming/presence of the Lord in Power and Glory. The disciples asked this question directly after Jesus told them the temple was to be destroyed.
These three events, temple, age and return were to happen simultaneously.
As repentance and saving faith are inseparable, these likewise cannot be divided.
It is interesting to note that at my very first introduction to futurist teaching on the Covenants,after being born again for about 6 mos., and spending every non-working hour in the Scriptures, I recognized and stated that what the pre- mil dispys were waiting for,the New Covenant, had already happened to me. Needless to say the brothers quickly "corrected" me.
Jesus gave us everything we need to walk in His Truth. Our God reigns!
Dave,
I am glad for you. It took me a lot longer to get into this and to
understand that I must see His kingdom in the now. However, I did so not knowing
any others who had seen this. I finally found the www.preteristarchive.com
and was I glad. That was in the early 90s' or late 80s'.
Like Eric said in another thread,
"Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"
"The Kingdom does not come with YOUR careful observation"
"My Kingdom is not of THIS world"
"This WORLD sees me no more."
That's going to be hard for people to document, don't you think?"
I would add another -
Matt 24:26"So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it. 27 For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man
(NIV)
It is hard to visualize a physical body being observed at such distances, yet
so many believe that is yet to be the case.
The Bible is more then sufficient. It is not perfect like some think it should be, and some believe as the Jews did that they, or rather, their particular fellowship were the authors.
It is to easy to become trapped in some aspect of the details and forget the
body of evidence.
The historicity of Jesus as the Messiah or as a prophet is probably no more established then His return in Judgment.
Some of those early Church fathers spoke in places as if He had returned and then
they or others contradicted that view with other statements.
Please do not ask me for the texts.
The seeming lack of historicity in support of Christ's return is no where
near as problematic as not accepting the fact that this was what Jesus projected
and was how his followers viewed what He had said, and saying they were
obviously mistaken.
If other religions can blindly and enthusiastically, and fervently accept
their weird nonsensical religious tenants we should be able to accept the
reasonableness of the Bible and not be taken back by what we perceive as being a
lack of historical support. One of the biggest problems the secular, anti-moral,
part of society has with Christianity is not with it's lack of historical
support, but is with it's reasonableness, for that builds a fire under their
conscience. They then point to areas where we do not even believe our own bible
and use this as a way of discrediting our faith. If we would just admit
that Jesus did return and is here and stand on that it would produce a
tremendous positive effect.
Roderick, I commend you on your willingness to look at the historical problem. I must say, however, I am disappointed in the responses so far--they do not even begin to touch the seriousness of the charge. The mighty King returned to his people in glory, as promised, and his elect ones did not even know it--they continued to die as martyrs in devout expectation of that event. God failed to ensure that his glorious return would be recognizable by his elect ones for whom the return was guaranteed.
The dilemma is grave and has no good answer. The very people to whom the return of Jesus Christ pertained did not experience that return in any way recognizable to them. If He came to them as had been promised in every NT letter, they never experienced it, nor was it revealed to them. Yet they continued to defend their Lord's doctrine and submitted to the wild beasts in faith. They were torn limb from limb, ever hoping for the coming of their Savior as was promised them by their shepherds, the apostles.
People ought to think long and hard about this historical dilemma before responding with glib answers that collapse upon further review.
http://www.preteristvision.org
Yeah, Parker,
You stated:
"The mighty King returned to his people in glory, as promised, and his elect ones did not even know it--they continued to die as martyrs in devout expectation of that event. God failed to ensure that his glorious return would be recognizable by his elect ones for whom the return was guaranteed."
So, it sounds like the Kingdom and Presence that you are hoping for, and suggest that the martyrs were too, is one in which Jesus comes down from the atmosphere and sets up a gloriously carnal Kingdom where He will sit on an earthly throne or maybe on a cloud for all to see, so that He can be a global dictator over the whole planet.
If that's what you're hoping for, you may be waiting for all eternity.
Jesus told His disciples (and us too), "Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also." John 14:19
What more do you want?
Are you looking for a future occurance or a historical record of an event in which Christ will be geographically located in a petty palace on a strip of Middle Eastern sand? If so, the Bible records that Christ refused an earthly throne when the Jews were ready to put Him on one.
Are you looking for something/someone tangible?
And if you had something tangible, where would your faith be?
We know that generations of early Church martyrs were slaughtered at the hands of the State because they fearlessly testified that Jesus Christ was LORD (in contradistinction to Caesar) and that was reigning in His Kingdom on Earth, even though it meant their death.
Theirs was not the testimony of people who wondered why their King was absent from His throne. Even Stephen, at his martyrdom saw and said some remarkable things: "But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing at the right hand of God."
So, I think your characterization of them being martyrs in spite of their supposed curiosity about why God failed on His guarantee to them is to misunderstand the martyr-mentality, and it carries a little contempt for God too. However, I'm no expert on the Martyrs, and have only read Eucebius's Ecclesiastical History once, and not much else.
Don't get me wrong, I think God can take the criticism, and your concerns are valid, for you. But I think you could be less glib too. If you really want them, I'm sure God will help you find good answers to your questions.
Peace to you,
C. Livingstone
Hello Chrisliv:
What I am expecting is that the very people to whom the Parousia pertained would know it happened once it did. If Christ indeed returned to and for them, they would have known. As it turns out, God kept it a secret from even his elect ones, the flocks of the apostles. This is a grave dilemma. They did not experience it or recognize his glorious return to them. They did not realize their blessed hope. The idea that God came to them and yet kept it a secret so they would not know or recognize is disturbing. It's unthinkable. Yet we know the first-century elect continued to die waiting for Him.
I am not at all suggesting that futurism is the answer. I hate to say it, but even partial preterism can't solve the dilemma. It can only put a band-aid on things. It doesn't solve the problem.
http://www.preteristvision.org
Parker,
Read my book, brother. Even the critics of Preterism (chuck hill, jay adams, thomas ice) noted it for its scholarly answer. I understand that the historical question is an issue. That was my biggest hurdle to accepting preterism. However, from the tools I received from seminary training, and from the sources I read during those years, the argument was already made for me in James Bannerman, William Goode, John Daille, and William Cunningham, not to mention the Westminster Confession of Faith and the doctrine of Sola Scriptura, and Gordon Clark masterpiece, "Historigraphy." In other words, to logically answer the question, I did not have to concoct a wild notion of disappearing Christians in A.D. 70 and I did not have to travel very far to find a reasonable response that proves the plausibility of our position. My book does not quote preterists, but Reformed scholars, for they, too, had to deal with the issue of 'legitimacy' in light of 1500 years of Catholic theology. And they did deal with it. The Westminster Confession is correct: "The SUPREME JUDGE in religious controversy is SCRIPTURE." Ask yourself this: is there any "historical" evidence that the Babylonian Whore is Jerusalem in the "fathers"? None whatsoever. But, Gentry gets away with it. The earliest references to the date of Revelation is Domitian (A.D. 95). But Gentry gets away with an early date. Many Evangelicals today think that we are living in the "age to come," but the Creeds all flatly contradict this. In other words, historical veracity offers no proof in and of itself as to the truth of the matter, only God's revelation does. God stopped "inspiring" absolute truth, unless, of course, Scriptures are being written today, too. Of the multifaceted Christian movements in the second century, which one was apostolic in origin? Montanism? Docetism? Valentianism? Chiliasm? Platonic allegoricism? Each claimed an unfaltering link to Paul. How do you know which one is right?
Samuel Frost
Hi Sam. Glad you understand that the historic question is serious. I am certain that it will continue to be thorn in the side of preterism, futurism, and all Christianity.
The attempt by many preterists to narrowly define the return of Jesus as strictly the desolations of Jerusalem, etc. doesn't work. Jesus was returning to and for his elect ones. This was indeed their blessed hope, one they eagerly anticipated as they accepted their fate in the Lions' mouths. Yet, so far as those very elect ones knew, their blessed hope did NOT materialize at AD 70. Their writings reveal a tragedy: the first Christians knew of a "secret return," but they were taught it would only be a secret to the ungodly and unbelieving. Turns out, it was a secret God kept from all his people (until now?)
The apostles' flocks to whom the Parousia pertained never experienced His return in any way they could understand. There is no good excuse for this, and it will continue to be thorn in the side of Christianity. The notion that Jesus "came as a thief in the night" to all men is just untenable, both historically and biblically.
http://www.preteristvision.org
Parker,
As a student of patristical studies, I would like to know the sources you are using that prove what "they" knew in A.D. 70 and what "they" experienced. I am sure the rest of the Christian scholarly world would like to have a peek at these sources as well!
Samuel Frost
Parker,
As a student of patristical studies, I would like to know the sources you are using that prove what "they" knew in A.D. 70 and what "they" experienced. I am sure the rest of the Christian scholarly world would like to have a peek a these sources as well!
Samuel Frost
Hi Sam. You know the usual sources:
Ignatius Bishop of Antioch (read his seven epistles to biblical churches)
Polycarp (Bishop of Smyrna)
Clement of Rome (letter to Corinthians)
Papias (fragments)
Epistle of Barnabas (author unknown)
Didache (author unknown)
Irenaeus
Justin Martyr
There are others, but these suffice to show that the return of Jesus never took place so far as the first Christians knew. Also, Eusebius and others gave historical lists of bishops in succession from the apostles (for various of the biblical churches). The disciples of the apostles were certainly present and accounted for, but no Jesus (at least, so far as anyone knew).
http://www.preteristvision.org
Ignatius' letters were probably sent around AD 70. Onesimus was Bishop of Ephesus before John. The traditional dating of Ignatius' letters makes no sense.
Therefore Polycarp was probably a lot earlier than is given credit. His letters were about the same time as Ignatius'
Clement of Rome probably wrote about AD 70. Peter appointed him Bishop of Rome.
The Didache is traditionally dated around AD 80. Given how late most traditional dates are, it's also probably much earlier.
All of these, plus The Shepherd, by another of Paul's associates and the Apostle's Creed could very well have been written before the Parousia.
Irenaeus had no credibility among many in the early church, especially for his dating, and especially by Eusebius.
In the Nicene Creed, Eusebius wrote of a future coming. In his History, Eusebius attached the entire Olivett discourse to the AD 70 events, yet talked of a future coming. But in his Defense, he's decidedly Preterist.
That leaves Justin, pseudo-Barnabas (who was the favorite of dispys back in the '70s), and Papias' fragments.
History is not kind to any eschatological view.
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
JL,
I humbly submit that you might be grasping at straws. There is no way to date all those writings before AD 70. For certain, these people lived beyond AD 70 and did not know of any return of Christ. They were still waiting for it, according to the historical record.
But even if, for sake of argument, we date all those writings prior to AD 70, it still wouldn't explain why the Church unanimously continued to look for the second coming in their future. Can anyone imagine that Christ returned to them but they failed to pass on that information to their disciples? Would not SOMEONE among the elect have written about it? How could St. John, Ignatius, Polycarp, Papias, and others have lived through the event but never record it or pass on the knowledge of it??? And, of course, we cannot place all those writings prior to AD 70, so it brings us back to the stubborn dilemma of history: the very christians to whom Jesus returned didn't know he returned.
http://www.preteristvision.org
Parker,
There's another issue to consider. When I read the early church writers, I tended to see them discussing the world as created in 6 literal 24 hour days. Yet, Hugh Ross demonstrated that my preconceived view was being read into their words. Very few of them actually believed such a thing.
A lot of the statements they make on that issue are actually very tentative and noncommital.
Could it be we're doing the same with eschatology? We need to seriously consider this. Especially since sometimes some of them did get it right.
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Parker,
You clearly didn't understand what I said. If you had, you wouldn't have put Ignatius in your list. Ignatius was martyred soon after he wrote his 7 letters. If his letters were pre-parousia, then his martyrdom was also.
I understand the problem. I'm only pointing out that the evidence you claimed demonstrates the problem is not as good as you think it is.
There are other issues that complicate this.
Consider John. According to Clement of Alexandria, the spirit of prophecy left the church before the death of Paul. If Clement is correct, then John would have known this. And knowing this, John wouldn't have dared to write a grocery list post-parousia for fear that the church would call it inspired.
Clement of Rome could well have been in the same position. His letter was considered canonical from the time it was written until sometime after Nicea.
This sort of view in the church would have created an aversion to writing by those of "first rank."
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
JL,
I'm not sure you're getting it. The first century Christians taught the second century Christians, and all their written records show that the people of the Parousia never knew it took place. That's the historic fact. The best and most honest reason for this is that it did not take place. If it had taken place, SOMEONE would have known it and taught this. As it stands, the historic record is non-occurence. The Christians, the very people of the Parousia, didn't recognize their "blessed hope." This dilemma is critical.
http://www.preteristvision.org
Parker,
Which Christians wrote late first century? Which Christians wrote early second century?
Is there a single document you can point to that was written after AD 70 but before AD 135? There isn't. There are only documents that late date historians claim are from that period.
Those historians are wrong about the dates of the Gospels, the Acts, and John's writings. They are probably wrong about the rest.
Show me a document by someone who lived through AD 70, who wrote after AD 70, who talks of a future coming. You can't find one.
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Dear Parker, here's another glib answer...How about; "Jesus said it, That settles it, and I believe it"?
We understand Spiritual Truth thru the vehicle of faith. It is the task of the "unbeliever" to disprove the doctrine. I do not need an 100%, totally agreeeable, historical sign/letter to validate the word of the King.
He promised to come in that generation in Power and Glory to render judgement and reward.That settles it, or you must believe He is NOT the perfect Son of God.
The Bible supplies an abundance of evidence and signs for the 1st century Parousia, and also the nature of the Kingdom---Spiritual and coming without observation.
Is is possible that they were already obeying the instruction " that if ye be raised with Christ, seek the things above" or already living out Pauls declaration of the exchanged life;" Not I, but Christ lives in me"
Is it possible that they were already walking so close to Jesus that on that Day, there was no big change?
In the absence of an inspired letter after the Return, their understanding and experience remains conjecture and speculation...But the Word of the Lord stands forever... That settles it for me!Glibly,dave
DAVE COLLINS:
Dear Parker, here's another glib answer...How about; "Jesus said it, That settles it, and I believe it"?
PARKER:
That's nice, but the people of the Parousia didn't know it took place. The Lord's return was to them and for them, and yet the first-century Christians simply never experienced or recognized his glorious coming.
Believing Jesus' words doesn't change the historic reality that he didn't ever come back (so far as the Elect ones knew). The first-century Parousia may have been a theological certainty, but it was NOT a historic reality so far as the first-century Christians knew. And that's a problem.
http://www.preteristvision.org
Fallacy: Appeal to Tradition
APPEAL TO TRADITION
Also Known as: Appeal to the Old, Old Ways are Best, Fallacious Appeal to the Past, Appeal to Age
Description of Appeal to Tradition
Appeal to Tradition is a fallacy that occurs when it is assumed that something is better or correct simply because it is older, traditional, or "always has been done." This sort of "reasoning" has the following form:
X is old or traditional
Therefore X is correct or better.
This sort of "reasoning" is fallacious because the age of something does not automatically make it correct or better than something newer. This is made quite obvious by the following example: The theory that witches and demons cause disease is far older than the theory that microrganisms cause diseases. Therefore, the theory about witches and demons must be true.
This sort of "reasoning" is appealing for a variety of reasons. First, people often prefer to stick with what is older or traditional. This is a fairly common psychological characteristic of people which may stem from the fact that people feel more comfortable about what has been around longer. Second, sticking with things that are older or traditional is often easier than testing new things. Hence, people often prefer older and traditional things out of laziness. Hence, Appeal to Tradition is a somewhat common fallacy.
It should not be assumed that new things must be better than old things (see the fallacy Appeal to Novelty) any more than it should be assumed that old things are better than new things. The age of something does not, in general, have any bearing on its quality or correctness (in this context). In the case of tradition, assuming that something is correct just because it is considered a tradition is poor reasoning. For example, if the belief that 1+1 = 56 were a tradition of a group of people it would hardly follow that it is true.
Appeal to Tradition is a fallacy
Tell that to St. Paul when he taught the church to 'follow the traditions he had taught them.'In the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, we command you, brothers, to keep away from every brother who is idle and does not live according to the traditions you received from us.
http://www.preteristvision.org
Those traditions were new then. Not old.
I suspect you don't know what those traditions are.
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Zorro,
It certainly was not Paul's tradition that the Lord was coming back the Second time outside of the lifetime of every Christian who lived in the first century. You seem determined to miss the fact that the New Testament, on its own terms, demands a first century Second Coming of Christ And Christians don;t your or anyone else's permission to either believe it or teach it.
~Markos
atavistchristian.com
Markos Mountjoy
MichaelB, you sir are absolutely correct. Thanks.
Zorro - apparently I am not alone.
Chrysostom 300 AD
(John of Antioch)
"O God of spirits and of all flesh, who hast trampled down death and overthrown the devil, and given life to thy world, do thou, the same Lord, give rest to the souls of thy servants, names, who have fallen asleep, in a place of light, in a place of verdure, in a place of repose, whence all sickness, sorrow and sighing are fled away. Pardon every sin committed by them in word or deed or thought, for thou art a good God and Lover of man, for there is no man that liveth and sinneth not, for thou only art without sin and thy righteousness is an everlasting righteousness, and thy word is truth."
[2] "Remembering this saving commandment and all those things which came to pass for us: the cross, the grave, the resurrection on the third day, the ascension into heaven, the sitting down at the right hand, the second and glorious coming again."
Apparently the early church was "stupid and blind" regarding being saved by faith alone for 1500 years...
Were the reformers wrong about that too Zorro?
According to your logic they were wrong because ... after all ... the Holy Sprit would never let that happen.
Luke 21
20"When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written.
ALL WHICH WAS WRITTEN was FULFILLED in the destruction of Jeusalem.
Michael Bennett
Apparently the early church was "stupid and blind" regarding being saved by faith alone for 1500 years...
Were the reformers wrong about that too Zorro?
According to your logic they were wrong because ... after all ... the Holy Sprit would never let that happen.
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You error in this - Luther got the idea from Augustine. Lutheran theologians have always been very careful to show that they are NOT bringing innovations into the church. Are you?
What!!!
Can you make some sense!?
Seeker
Seeker
The Lutheran church has always been the source of the most anti-Christ of innovations. Liberal theologian and Lutheran have always gone together. The whole God is dead movement. The late dating of the Bible. The P and Q sources and redactors. The perversion that allowed the Lutheran church to embrace Hitler.
You are too funny.
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
'Yes, people in general are often unwitting participants in fulfillment of things to which they are unaware of the impact.'
The sacraments of baptism and communion are examples of that.
The problem with your argument is suggesting that Christ is playing a cat and mouse game with His church - that the Holy Spirit remained silent until He illuminated a modern group of so-called full-preterists to attack the church and the faith on nearly every point. That is not the work of the Holy Spirit, but some other.
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'But we might wonder why right after the Fall of Jerusalem and the Destruction of the Temple we don’t see scores of Christian writers touting those events as proof that Christ was successful and had indeed returned.'
The FACT is, scores of Christian writers DID report on the destruction of the temple and its meaning for the church in generations to come. The weren't unaware the events of 70AD. But because they didn't see what you want them to see - you declare them (2000 years later) stupid and blind. A "theological parousia" is fictional when it does not jive with history.
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Just exactly who are the scores of Christian writers who "DID report on the destruction of the temple and its meaning for the church in generations to come?" Were these folks contemporary with that event?
James M. Brewster
'Just exactly who are the scores of Christian writers..?'
The pre-nicene fathers - beginning with Clement, a contemporary of Peter and Paul. '...our people seemed to be outcast from God, but now, through believing, have become more numerous than those who are reckoned to possess God.'
I found the passage in the so-called 2nd Epistle of Clement. Clement didn't write it.
The context of the letter is renewed persecution (Chap. 5-7). This is what has caused the fruitfulness of the Church mentioned in Chap 2.
Whether this persecution is from the Jews during the tribulation, from Nero, or from some later Roman tyrant, I can't say. But if it was written during the first two periods, it confirms Preterism. If it wasn't, then it was written 100 years later and confirms nothing.
What's written in Chap. 12 and 13 is just wierd. We all share the same soul. But then he seems to deny a bodily resurrection. Only a soulish one.
Thank-you for this illuminating example.
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Great article Roderick (and Parker). I often hear similar arguments from folks when I present them with the preterist understanding (i.e. that there is no historical evidence, therefore it is not true). This reasoning is chock full of logical and Scriptural fallacies, here are only a few:
1) There IS (as you pointed out Josephus et. al.) historical evidence for many of the events surrounding the coming of Christ. Also, as Frost demonstrates in his book, it is possible to see where and why some (not necessarily all) in the early church erred in their understanding of the resurrection et. al.
2) Though the surrounding events/signs were, the actual appearing of Messiah was not necessarily a physical/earthly (therefore historically verifiable) event.
3) It is fallacious to say there are no documents from first century Christian witnesses; it is quite possible we just haven’t discovered them YET. We know from history that God has a way of leaving His people archeological clues at just the right time, so perhaps a discovery is only a matter of time.
4) In a strange way the book of Revelations is imminent HISTORY. John was a first century witness of the first century coming of Christ (only a few years earlier, but this he mentions with “soon” etc.)
5) Does a holy remnant fleeing for dear life to the mountains (without extra household goods or even spare clothes Mt. 24:17,18) while thousands are being slaughtered around them have much time to buy paper from their local Staples, have quiet eschatological reflection, journal, publish, and widely circulate their magna cartas? It’s not a “rapture” off the earth, but a “departure” from the Land.
6) Moreover, if Christ told His people to flee from the very scene of His greatest wrath, then how would they see what took place there? His coming in general was said to be “as lightning” but the central location (where the lightning struck, if you will) was Jerusalem and the Temple. Why did no Christian record what went on there? Because they fled (and didn‘t have a T.V. camera pointed at the Mt. of Olives like TBN).
7) I know Ed Steven’s theory is debatable, but the futurist certainly can’t refute it without being hypocritical, for it is often a part of their own scheme. Maybe the Church was raptured! It is far more absurd for futurists to contemplate such an event 2000 after the fact than preterists contemplating it happening at the specified time.
Last, but certainly not least…
8) Uninspired historians (even if Christian) are not infallible, and it would likely not make a difference even if we had such first century witnesses. If they will not listen to Moses, the Prophets, and Christ, then they will not listen even if some document “rises from the dead” to tell them.
Therefore, it was a big deal, it was personally experienced (and I’m sure remembered by some who “got it“), it was (and is) a key part of the faith, and as we can see it may or may not have been recorded for various good reasons.
P.S. I read Frost’s book “Misplaced Hope,” and it was excellent. I highly recommend it.
'Though the surrounding events/signs were, the actual appearing of Messiah was not necessarily a physical/earthly (therefore historically verifiable) event.'
In other words, a non-event. Not much of a 'return'.
Dear Zorro, You are absolutely right! Not much of a return, a non-event...unless,of course, you think the dissolution of a nation/age and the establishment of the New Covenant Eternal age could possibly be significant..... kinda along the lines of a new born baby wrapped in a manger in a little insignificant village.
No - it's kinda along the lines of an invisible baby that no one reported and no one saw - that's a non-event. The invisible 'return' of Christ and the invisible 'resurrection' are dreamed up non-events to explain the total lack of Christian reports from that period. To explain that, the next hole is dug that says the church was 'raptured' and so couldn't report it. Now, somehow you call all this an example of good thinking, when it is laughable.
Markos Mountjoy
"Most assuredly I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God"
"The Kingdom does not come with YOUR careful observation"
"My Kingdom is not of THIS world"
"This WORLD sees me no more."
That's going to be hard for people to document, don't you think?
Read my book, Misplaced Hope, which deals, technically, with this very problem. I do not opt (and think is rather absurd) Ed Stevens view of a "rapture" in A.D. 70. Logically and historically, as I show in my book (with favorable reviews from critics), that the early church "got more right" than they got wrong. It is one of the only preterists books from a scholarly analysis which deals with this very matter and offers a logical plausibility of what supposedly "went wrong." It is either this, or all Christians dissappeared in A.D. 70....take your pick.
Samuel Frost
Sam,
I read your book, but, like most other preterist books, it fails to account for the unqualified language of completion and totality that characterized the apostolic view of the parousia event. If the apostles got the "time statements" right, then how can one miss the probability that they also got the time of the "end of all things" right as well.
For example, Paul directly stated in many different ways that the God would be completely finished with all redemptive activity by the time of the parousia. I think this is why there hasn't been any manifestations of God since the parousia.
A few examples of this language include "the COMPLETION" (1 Cor 13:10), the "CONSUMMATION of THE AGES (plural)" (1 Cor 10:16), and "then comes THE END" (1 Cor 15:28) when God became "ALL IN ALL" (1 Cor 15:28). This kind of language doesn't leave any more room for any on-going post-AD 70 application of prophecy than do the time statements leave any room for post-AD 70 fulfilment of prophecy!
Paul also uequivocably stated that "ALL Israel" and "the FULL NUMBER of gentiles" were to have come into the vine for salvation by the time of the parousia (Romans 11:26-27). Jesus also stated that "EVERY person" (Matt 16:28; Rev 20:13) would be raised and judged at the parousia.
If we take this unqualified language at face value (like we do the time statements), then there is no exegetical basis for thinking that apostles expected anyone else to be included in the fulfillment of God's redemptive program for either Jews or Gentiles. The words "EVERY" and "ALL" and "END" and "CONSUMMATION" and "FULL NUMBER" and "COMPLETE" are even conclusive than words like "NEAR" and "SOON" and "THIS GENERATION."
With all due respect, if you are expanding the scope of God's people or Kingdom beyond the definite prophetic time limit of the parousia, then how can you be critical of other scholars who expand the time statements beyond AD 70? If "all" doesn't mean "all", then how can you judge those who say that "soon" didn't really mean "soon"?
As a preterist myself, I've had to come to grips with the reality that this problem effects dozens of key OT and NT prophecies pertaining to the meaning of the parousia.