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The "mark" itself is at once a number and a name. The Apostle tells us what it is. As he gives it, it is made up of two Greek characters which stand for the name of Christ, with a third, the figure of a crooked serpent, put between them, the name of God’s Messiah transformed into a Devil sacrament.
-- Joseph Seiss, The Apocalypse, 1865
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Preterism: A Preterist Exposition of 1 Corinthians 15
Posted on Monday, May 05 @ 06:52:03 PDT by Norman Voss |
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by Kurt Simmons
1 Cor. 15 is among the chief eschatological passages - any discussion on Christ's second coming sooner or later will end up here. Not surprisingly, there is a fair amount of disagreement about its meaning among Preterists. This article will attempt to help clear things up.
I Cor. 15 is divided into three parts: vv. 1-34 deal with the fact of the resurrection and consequences of its denial. Verses. 35-50 deal with the nature of the resurrection body – natural and corruptible vs. spiritual and incorruptible. Verses 50-57 deal with the “mystery” of the eschatological change. Let’s look briefly at each of these.
Fact of the Resurrection
I Cor. 15:1, 2 - Moreover brethren I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand, by which also ye are saved.
We think of I Cor. 15 as being predominantly eschatological, but we see here that soteriology and eschatology are inexorably bound together up. Last things grow out of first things, and first things are completed in last things. The gospel that begins with the birth of the savior, culminates in his resurrection from the dead. This resurrection – its authenticity, its historicity, its gospel verity – is the message by which God has chosen to save man.
Definition of the Resurrection
I Cor. 15:19 – If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable.
This verse is central to our purpose. In fact, I wonder if the whole exposition of the chapter does not turn upon this one verse: If in this life only we have hope in Christ, we are of all men most miserable. Resurrection is the hope and assurance of the next life – the life that awaits man in heaven. We do not receive, we do not experience, we do not partake of that resurrection here, but here after. As we will see, this is the major weakness of that view, which holds that the resurrection is justification and restored fellowship with God; which places the resurrection on the wrong side of eternity, making it something men enjoy in this life, rather than the next as taught by Paul and Christ. Jesus is very plain that resurrection belong to the next world, not this world:
Click here to read the entire article (PDF FORMAT!!)
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Re: A Preterist Exposition of 1 Corinthians 15 (Score: 1)
 by Starlight on Monday, May 05 @ 08:02:19 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | The purpose of my submitting Kurt’s article for discussion is to allow for examination and critique of Kurt’s view of 1 Cor 15 and his handling of “the death” and of his disavowing of the related “body” metaphor that many Preterist are convinced of.
I consider this article by Kurt to be a continuation of his recent retrenchment efforts towards Preterism to modify it so that it will fit more comfortably into Kurt’s biblical worldview.
My concern is that Kurt is simply presenting a more sophisticated hybrid form of partial Preterism while ignoring the complete “body” of scripture that seems to speak against his conclusions. While reading his article I find things that I agree with while at the same time feel that there are gaping holes in his overall viewpoint and conclusions.
Norm
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Re: A Preterist Exposition of 1 Corinthians 15 (Score: 1)
 by Virgil on Monday, May 05 @ 08:56:41 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | I should point out that I contacted Kurt and asked him to remove the misleading information he posted about me and he failed to respond. His website continues to misrepresent my position on 4 out of 6 categories posted on his site.
So Norm, I am not sure if Kurt is interested in any exchange; he likes to shout out what his perception of others is while he is covering his ears going "la la la la." My kids do that sometime too. :) |
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- by Starlight on Monday, May 05 @ 09:45:04 PDT
Re: A Preterist Exposition of 1 Corinthians 15 (Score: 1)
by Fizzbin on Monday, May 05 @ 10:11:19 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | I'm confused as to what the "dissagreement amoung Preterists" would be. It all seems fairly straight forward:
22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.
45So it is written: "The first man Adam became a living being"[e]; the last Adam, a life-giving spirit.
49And just as we have borne the likeness of the earthly man, so shall we[f] bear the likeness of the man from heaven.
50I declare to you, brothers, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
And here's the 70AD Pretersit clincher:
52in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
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- by Virgil on Monday, May 05 @ 19:16:22 PDT
- by JL on Wednesday, June 04 @ 15:05:42 PDT
Re: A Preterist Exposition of 1 Corinthians 15 (Score: 1)
by Starlight on Wednesday, May 07 @ 04:39:53 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | It appears to me that Kurt in this article is creating a false dichotomy between an understanding of the use of the individual and the collective “Body” metaphor utilized by Paul in his letters. As in many writings I find things I agree with and positions that I disagree with. I find that Kurt comes to the conclusion that the “mystery change” which Paul speaks of in 1Cor 15:51 is a legal change in status for believers at AD70. This position I whole heartily agree with Kurt on but part of the premise of Kurt’s article is that this legal status can only be obtained after individual death of the faithful believer. This is where Kurt and I part company, as I believe Kurt has only gotten it partially correct.
I don’t believe Kurt would deny that there is a collective “Body of Christ” that composes all believers today which was consummated at AD70. What Kurt fails to remember is that the “Body” of believers is a covenant group with origins from God’s original covenant with Adam. That original covenant established as the Old Heavens and Earth of Adam became legally the “body of Death” when Adam broke the first Law/commandment. Christ transformed that corrupted covenantal body of Death into the body of his glory (Phil 3:21). There was then an original “legal” separation when Adam opened his eyes at that “legal” loss of relationship with God and in like manner Paul says the mystery would be the “legal” change that happens again in the twinkling of an eye.
Now I do not ascribe that there is a legal opening for those outside the covenant so in a way Kurt and I agree somewhat as this legal status is only for those within the collective “body of Christ”. One must seek and enter into covenant with God and must remain faithful to the end to receive ones eternal reward. Man is given free moral choice and can remove themselves from this relationship while in the physical realm if they so choose.
I now want to explore more in-depth an understanding of how the Body of Death was transformed into the Body of Christ. I believe it is imperative that when introducing the “body” corporate understanding that we first define it in a manner that people can get their heads around and then venture further.
When we talk “corporate” we should all understand the corporate meaning of the “body of Christ”. It is a group description that most of us should comprehend the meaning of. We know that the individual enters into the “body” through faith and therefore belong to the “corporate body of Christ”.
Next we have the “body of death”. What is the difference? It is simply the covenant body which finds its origins in Adam and his failure to obey God’s first Covenant command. How are all men under that condemnation? Well it is because we sin, we are no better at perfection than Adam was and so all men are under the condemnation of the “body of death” even those who do not sin in the same manner as Adam did. In other words those outside of Adam’s covenant could not access Godly perfection on their own either (Rom 2:15) nor can they still.
So how does that translate into a “corporate rising”? It means that the corporate body of death could not enter into the presence of God and thus we have the entire Old righteous not able to enter into God’s presence and therefore remained in the Hadean realm, this is the essence of the “Hope of Israel” that Paul often alludes to. Now when Christ comes along and atones for Sin at the Cross and is resurrected he paves the way for those Old worthies and the rest (those alive) to enter into God’s spiritual presence through His “body” at the Parousia.
This is what Paul is stating in Romans 7: 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this BODY OF DEATH? 25 Thanks be to God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!
I had always previously taken this as a personal description of Paul concerning his own physical body and it never dawned on me to read the previous 3 chapters for the proper context. L
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- by davo on Wednesday, May 07 @ 19:18:37 PDT
- by Starlight on Wednesday, May 07 @ 19:56:55 PDT
Kurt Simmons, Max King & Sam Frost (Score: 1)
by Starlight on Wednesday, June 04 @ 12:13:13 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Recently Kurt Simmons posted a response on his web site to my post here on Planet Preterist. He takes Max King, I and all others taking the “corporate body” of resurrection viewpoint to task for fostering an idea that leads to biblical universalism. This is not a new idea from Kurt as he has been on this point for quite a while now. The irony of this discussion is that I agree with Kurt on some points about the “CB” viewpoint encouraging some into biblical Universalism. I also happen to believe that it is compounded when one attributes “earthy Adam” described by Paul in 1 Cor 15 to mankind in general. Kurt really gets to the heart of the matter with his latest post to Sam Frost web site where there is an ongoing discussion about Kurt’s response to my original post here on PP. Here is an excerpt from Kurt’s response to Sam.
Kurt Simmons stated on Sam Frost web site … “So my question is, which is it? Was the Adamic/Mosaic body raised? If so, where are unbelievers today? To what body do they belong? If unbelievers are part of the risen body of Christ (as per the corporate body view) does this not lead to Universalism? Or are unbelievers "bodiless?"”
The full discussion between Sam and others interacting with Kurt can be found at the following link. If one wants to follow all the comments you need to go to the bottom and select the next page.
http://preterism.ning.com/profiles/blog/show?id=1632544%3ABlogPost%3A9855
Here is the link to Kurt’s full article on his web site.
http://www.preteristcentral.com/pres-vossresponse.htm
My response to Kurt begins with a quote from Romans 3.
(Rom 3:21 NIV) But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify.
22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ TO ALL WHO BELIEVE. There is no difference,
23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God,
24 and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
My overall response to Kurt is going to be built around this Premise “The Body of Christ” is made up entirely of believers in God Almighty. The Body of Christ was transformed out of the first Adam’s “Body of sin and Death” by the faithfulness of the second Adam (Christ). Here is the elephant in the room for Kurt, namely that since the body of Christ was composed of believers it is absolutely impossible for those who comprised the “body of death” to have any other attribute themselves but faith in God almighty. Paul tells us as much in Romans 9:6-8.
(Rom 9:6 NIV) It is not as though God's word had failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. 7 Nor because they are his descendants are they all Abraham's children. … 8 In other words, it is NOT THE NATURAL CHILDREN who are God's children, but it is the children of the promise who are regarded as Abraham's offspring.
I will repeat this point as it is foundational to this discussion. “Since the body of Christ was composed of believers it is absolutely impossible for those who comprised the “body of death” to have any other attribute themselves but faith in God almighty”.
(Rom 4:1 NIV) What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? … 3 What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
The questions that I must answer concerning Adam and his faithful descendants; were they believers in God.
(Gen 4:25 NIV) Adam lay with his wife again, and she gave birth to a son and named him Seth, ….26 … . At that time men began to call on the name of the LORD.
5:1 This is the written account of Adam's line. When God created man, he made him in the likeness of God. … 3 When Adam had lived 130 years, he had a son in his own likeness, in his own image; and he named him Seth.
Here we have scriptural verificati
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- by Virgil on Wednesday, June 04 @ 12:26:48 PDT
- by Starlight on Wednesday, June 04 @ 12:49:25 PDT
- by MiddleKnowledge on Wednesday, June 04 @ 15:40:34 PDT
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