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"Adam committed high treason; and at that point, all the dominion and authority God had given tohim was handed over to Satan. Suddenly, God was on the outside looking in...After Adam's fall, God found Himself in a peculiar position...God needed an avenue back into the earth...God laid out His proposition and Abram accepted it. It gave God access to the earth and gave man access to God...Technically, if God ever broke the Covenant, He would have to destroy Himself."
-- Kenneth Copeland
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Symbolism of Heavens and Earth: National & Political, or Covenantal?
Posted on Friday, March 14 @ 08:15:06 PDT by Fred Gunther |
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Like the question which death was destroyed in AD 70 (Ans: Hadean), the proper interpretation of the symbolism behind use of “heavens and earth” in prophetic imagery is becoming more and more important to Preterism. In this article, we show that the prophets consistently use the imagery of the heavens and earth as symbols of thrones and dominions, and peoples and nations, and never in reference to the Old or New Testament.
The probable majority of Preterists interpret the “heavens and earth” of New Testament prophecy as symbolic references to Jerusalem, the temple, and the Mosaic law. This interpretation reflects apologetic attempts to harmonize passages like II Peter 3 with predictions tying Christ’s return to the fall of Jerusalem. The apostles sat upon the Mount of Olives and asked Jesus about the sign of his coming and the end of the world; he answered by describing events largely confined to the fall of Jerusalem. Add to this passages like Heb. 12:27, which describes a shaking of the heavens and earth in connection with the removal of the old law and the conclusion seems inescapable: The heavens and earth of New Testament prophecy should be understood as metaphors for Jerusalem and the old law.
This view has had notable proponents over the centuries. Names like John Owen, John Lightfoot, Jonathan Edwards, and Charles Spurgeon can be marshaled in at least partial defense of this position. Given the prominence the fall of Jerusalem and the temple receive in scripture, we feel it is natural – perhaps even unavoidable - for students to reach this conclusion early in their studies. Indeed, this was our view for almost 25 years. More recently, however, we have come to reject it as scripturally indefensible.
Established Usage
Consistent use of “heavens and earth” by the prophets shows that it was always used nationally and politically, never locally or “covenantally.”
There is not a single occurrence in the Old Testament where “heavens and earth” are used as symbols or metaphors for the law of Moses, temple service, or priesthood. Not one. All instances are strictly confined to instances of world-wide judgment upon men and nations.
Isa. 13:9-11 - Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine. And I will punish the world for [their] evil, and the wicked for their iniquity; and I will cause the arrogancy of the proud to cease, and will lay low the haughtiness of the terrible.
This is a classic Preterist proof text; it has been used innumerable times to show that there have been many comings and days of the Lord, and that the language of a collapsing universe is purely figurative. We call to your attention two additional points, generally overlooked:
1) There is no covenantal aspect to this prophecy. God’s wrath is based exclusively upon his moral judgments against the wickedness of man, not the Mosaic law. The especial object of judgment in this passage is Babylon, which was never in covenant relation with God. The figure of the heavens and earth in this passage is therefore easily seen to be national and political; it describes the overthrow of thrones and dominions, not the temple or its service.
2) This prophecy reflects a time of world-wide judgment. Isaiah specifically states that the fall of Babylon was merely part of a larger time of world-wrath at the hands of the Medes and Persians. The Mede-Persian Empire was like a great whirlwind of destruction that ranged from Elam in the North to Egypt in the West, and Arabia in the south to Europe in the north. No nation escaped; all felt the rod of God’s chastisement by their hand.
Isa. 34:1-4 - Come near, ye nations, to hear; and hearken, ye people: let the earth hear, and all that is therein; the world, and all things that come forth of it. For the indignation of the LORD [is] upon all nations, and [his] fury upon all their armies: he hath utterly destroyed them, he hath delivered them to the slaughter. Their slain also shall be cast out, and their stink shall come up out of their carcases, and the mountains shall be melted with their blood. And all the host of heaven shall be dissolved, and the heavens shall be rolled together as a scroll: and all their host shall fall down, as the leaf falleth off from the vine, and as a falling [fig] from the fig tree.
Here is another classic Preterist proof text. Its power and testimony to the figurative nature of prophetic imagery and language is unequaled. It corresponds perfectly with Matthew twenty-four, II Peter 3, and the imagery of Revelation. Despite the language of collapsing universe, the specific object of wrath named in this passage is Edom. However, in our haste we have overlooked several things:
1) The passage expressly describes a time of world-wrath by the Babylonian Empire; Edom would fall in the course of God’s judgment upon the nations.
2) Its language is clearly national and political, not covenantal. The judgments described had no connection to the Old Testament law.
Of course, there are passages identical to these, which describe judgment upon Old Testament Judea by the Babylonians; events that occurred within the very sweep of the prophecy concerning the fall of Edom, above. For example, Zephaniah describes God’s judgment upon Judah in similar language. However, the same book also describes simultaneous judgment upon numerous other cities and nations, including Gaza, Ashkelon, Ashdod, Ekron, the Cherethites, Canaan, the Philistines, Moad, Ammon, and the Ethiopians! Although judgment upon Judah necessarily involved the nation’s violation of the old law, the fact that identical language is used to describe judgment upon nations to whom the law did not apply proves that it is national and political, not covenantal; the fall of stars from the heavens and the dissolution of the earth describe the overthrow of thrones and dominions, and have no reference to the Old Testament at all.
Planting the Heavens & Founding the Earth
Isaiah fifty-one is another favorite text, supposedly affirming that “heavens and earth” carry a covenantal connotation. However, an objective reading of the text will show this is wrong:
“For the Lord shall comfort Zion: he will comfort all her waste places; and he will make her wilderness like Eden, and her desert like the garden of the Lord….Therefore the redeemed of the Lord shall return, and come with singing unto Zion; and everlasting joy shall be upon their head: and they shall obtain gladness and joy; and sorrow and mourning shall flee away…The captive exile hasteneth that he may be loosed, and that he should not die in the pit, nor that his bread should fail. But I am the Lord thy God, that divided the sea, whose waves roared: The Lord of hosts is his name. And I have put my words in thy mouth, and I have covered thee in the shadow of mine hand, that I may plant the heavens, and lay the foundations of the earth, and say unto Zion, thou art my people.” Isa. 51:3, 11, 14-16.
Reference to the sea is correctly identified with God’s parting the Red Sea for Israel at the exodus. This is then typically coupled with the language about “planting the heavens,” and “laying the foundations of the earth” as evidence that “heavens and earth” here refers to establishing the covenant at Sinai.
However, this is really very bad exegesis, and belies a fundamental lack of comprehension. The context of the passage is plainly to the Babylonian captivity and God’s promise to bring a remnant back to the land. Notice that reference to dividing the Red Sea is in the past tense. Note also that reference to “planting the heavens” and laying the “foundations of the earth” is in the future subjunctive (“that I may”). This shows that these two events are not connected in time; God is evoking the example of the Red Sea crossing from the past example as a demonstration of his ability to redeem his people out of captivity in the future. “Planting the heavens” is a poetic reference to repopulating the land by sowing it with the seed of men; “laying the foundations of the earth” describes the rebuilding of the waste and desolate places; the cities left uninhabited when their peoples were taken into captivity. This is easily seen by a simple comparison of similar passages. (Cf. Jer. 31:27; Ezek. 36:33, 36; Hos. 2:23)
Hebrews: Shaking the Heavens & Earth
It is true, of course, that Hebrews speaks about shaking the heavens and earth in the context of the destruction of Jerusalem (Heb. 12:22-28). This is cited by Preterists as evidence that the heavens and earth to be removed were covenantal, and referred to the Old Testament, and that the new heavens and earth refer, in turn, to the New Testament. Thus, Max King:
“The writer of the Book of Hebrews referred to this transformation as the shaking of heaven and earth, which signified the removing of the temporal Old Covenant world that was created at Mount Sinai (Hebrews 12:26-27)...The destruction of Jerusalem and the earthly temple in A.D. 70 provides the context for the passing of the old heaven and earth...He sums up the new creation in terms of the coming of the kingdom of God in power by writing, “since we are receiving a kingdom that cannot be shaken, let us give thanks, by which we offer to God an acceptable worship with reverence and awe” (Hebrews 12:28). Max R. King, Israel's New Heaven and Earth, Mar 26, 2005
However, this is plainly wrong. Shaking of the heavens and earth at the eschaton was in no wise limited to Jerusalem and the Jews. The eschaton was a time of world-wrath, reaching from Italy, Spain, Germany, and Gaul, to Armenia, Asia, Egypt, and Palestine. One would have to be ignorant of world history at the time of Jerusalem’s fall not to see this. He would also have to be willing to overlook numerous passages of scripture that plainly signify the world-wide nature of the eschaton. Haggai, whom the writer of Hebrews quotes, provides its own best refutation of the “local” and “covenantal” eschaton model.
Hag. 2:6, 7; 3:21, 22 – For thus saith the Lord of hosts; Yet once, it is a little while, and I will shake the heavens, and the earth, and the sea, and the dry land; and I will shake all nations, and the desire of all nations shall come: and I will fill this house with glory, saith the Lord of hosts…I will shake the heavens and the earth; and I will overthrow the throne of kingdoms, and I will destroy the strength of the kingdoms of the heathen.”
As Preterists, we have interpreted this passage as quoted by the Hebrew writer in terms of Jerusalem’s fall, but, as we see, its actual, original, and intended scope was universal – the eschaton would be a time when all nations of the greater Roman world were shaken and the throne of heathen kingdoms overthrown. We should also note that the heavens and earth in this context point to higher powers and earth’s governments; they have no covenantal significance whatever.
The number of passages proving the eschaton was in no way localized to Judea and Galilee are so many it is almost tedious to read and recount them. Nevertheless, we provide here a few. Dan. 2:28-45; 7:1-28; Ps.2:8, 9;. 96:11-13; cf. 98:9; 110:5, 6; Ezek. 38, 39; Joel 3; Mic. 4:3, 11-13; Zech. 12:3; 14:12; Matt. 25:31, 32; Rom. 1:18; Rom. 2:8, 9; I Cor. 7:29, 31; II Thess. 2:8; II Tim. 4:1 Acts 17:30, 31; Revelation. It is axiomatic that if the eschaton involved the whole Roman world, then the heavens and earth dissolved at Christ’s coming was much more than Judea.
Isaac Newton: Heavens & Earth National and Political
We noted above that many great names down through the centuries have interpreted the heavens and earth of II Peter three and Hebrews twelve in reference to the fall of Jerusalem, while overlooking Christ’s wrath upon the rest of the Roman world. However, with the possible exception of Lightfoot, none of those cited interpreted the heavens and earth in “covenantal” terms, so far as we are aware. And even Lightfoot interpreted only the “elements’ in reference to the Mosaic law, not the “heavens and earth.” Hence, even these great commentators would agree that “heavens and earth” refer to thrones and dominions, not the Old or New Covenants. The following explanation by Isaac Newton we submit is the correct one.
"The figurative language of the prophets is taken from the analogy between the world natural and an empire or kingdom considered as a world politic. Accordingly, the world natural, consisting of heaven and earth, signifies the whole world politic, consisting of thrones and people, or so much of it as is considered in prophecy; and the things in that world signify the analogous things in this. For the heavens and the things therein signify thrones and dignities, and those who enjoy them: and the earth, with the things thereon, the inferior people; and the lowest parts of the earth, called Hades or Hell, the lowest or most miserable part of them. Great earthquakes, and the shaking of heaven and earth, are put for the shaking of kingdoms, so as to distract and overthrow them; the creating of a new heaven and earth, and the passing of an old one; or the beginning and end of a world, for the rise and ruin of a body politic signified thereby. The sun, for the whole species and race of kings, in the kingdoms of the world politic; the moon, for the body of common people considered as the king's wife; the stars, for subordinate princes and great men; or for bishops and rulers of the people of God, when the sun is Christ. Setting of the sun, moon, and stars; darkening the sun, turning the moon into blood, and falling of the stars, for the ceasing of a kingdom." (Observations on the Prophecies, Part i. chap. ii)
If the heavens and earth put down at Christ’s coming were the throne and dominions of Nero Caesar, the Sanhedrin and rulers of the Jews, together with other temporal power who rejected the gospel and persecuted the church, then the new heavens are earth are best understood as the government of Christ, ruling the nations in righteousness with an iron rod.
Covenantal Heavens & Earth: All the Rage among Universalists
It is no secret that Presence Ministries of Max R. King, who has built his built his writing career on the covenantal heavens and earth model, has gone over to Universalism. The number of articles and quotes that may be marshaled in support of this charge make it beyond successful refutation. Indeed, Presence Ministries feels no need to even deny the accusation by issuing a statement or disclaimer. We here provide quotes from Universalists of varying shades and colors, all of whom make happy use of the covenantal heavens and earth concept to advance their cause. The last quote is by Tim Martin; although not a Universalist, his theology nevertheless bears an obvious logical connection thereto. All the people quoted accept the basic covenantal heavens and earth model of King. Please note the progression of thought:
Tim King - “Simply stated, man is changed because his world changed. Man is reconciled to God because he no longer lives under the rule of sin and death as determined by the Mosaic world. Through the gift of Christ he dwells in a world of righteousness and life. The issue is cosmic and corporate, not individual and limited.” Tim King, Comprehensive Grace, 2005
Kevin Beck - “There’s no sin and no sin-related death in a world that has the New Jerusalem in it’s midst.” Kevin Beck, The Creation of Jerusalem, Feb, 08
David Timm - The second Adam (Christ) reversed all the spiritual separation brought by the first Adam, not just part of it…in the new world people are reconciled to God without any say in the matter. God loves all those that He has made in His image equally. David Timm, Grace Upon All, Oct. 2006
David Embury - "A man was who he was according to his 'world', and for the Jews their world centred around Yahweh - they were His people and He their God, and so by covenant. Who were the first-fruit believers in Paul's eyes? None other than the 'Body of Christ'. Having been crucified, buried and raised in Christ they were thus delivered out of the body of sin and death i.e., the Old Covenant world, or what we might call the 'Body of Moses' – Paul having spoken of "the fathers" being "baptized into Moses" etc. [can you see the train of thought?] The designation "the flesh" is not one facet of man as opposed to another part of man i.e., "the spirit", but rather "the flesh" speaks of man as a whole in a given mode or realm of existence, as does likewise the spirit. So Paul's spirit/flesh language was indicative of life under covenant, either of the "flesh" as in OC or of the "spirit" as in NC – reading Gal 3 and Phil 3 bears this out." David Embury, Plantet Preterist post, Friday, December 05 @ 20:23:16 PST
Ed Burely – “In spite of the fact that I do not believe that the first chapters of Genesis have anything to do with the physical creation (but instead with a covenant creation), I still will not buy an argument that says "young earth" but not with biblical evidence. A covenantal view of the bible's beginning, along with scientific data, speaks to me that this earth, and this universe is old." Ed Burely, Planet Preterist, Tuesday, November 13 @ 10:56:06 PST
Tim Martin - "Just as the formation of Israel and giving of the Law was the metaphorical creation of “heaven and earth,” so the destruction of the Judaic society, the Law, the priesthood, and temple would be the passing away of Israel’s “heaven and earth.” Tim Martin, Beyond Creation Science (unpublished manuscript version)
“Do you believe that there were any people outside of the garden at creation? If all were in the garden in God's first (what you take to be physical) creation, wouldn't that have implications for God's redemption?...As you can see, it could be that it's never been about us doing anything (right or wrong); it's always been about God redeeming his creation; not just small parts of it.” Tim Martin, Planet Preterist Post, Thursday, February 21 @ 09:48, 52:05 PST
“Redeeming all of his creation” means all in the “covenant creation” (“covenantal heavens and earth”). Thus, to avoid the Universalism inherent in placing all men in Revelation’s new heavens and earth (where these are interpreted as the New Testament), Martin is forced to place other men outside of his “covenantal garden of Eden.” Tim King and Kevin Beck, on the other hand, make no qualms that all mankind is redeemed in the new heavens and earth. Such is the mischief the covenantal heavens and earth model has wrought.
Conclusion
Established usage shows that “heavens and earth” were metaphors for thrones and dominions, peoples and nations. They have never had any covenantal signification in scripture. Preterists need to disabuse themselves of this erroneous idea.
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Re: Symbolism of Heavens and Earth: National & Political, or Covenantal? (Score: 1)
 by MichaelB on Friday, March 14 @ 13:14:25 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | | Fred - nicely thought out article - you make a very good point. If every time "heaven and earth" passing, meant covenant passing in the OT then we would have to say that there was no Mosaiac law anymore, even back then. Anyways - wandered if you could email me. Would like to get some thoughts. steel_saint@yahoo.com |
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- by JL on Monday, March 17 @ 18:41:36 PDT
- by MichaelB on Monday, March 17 @ 22:40:24 PDT
- by JL on Tuesday, March 18 @ 08:20:13 PDT
- by Malachi on Tuesday, April 15 @ 17:41:17 PDT
Re: Symbolism of Heavens and Earth: National & Political, or Covenantal? (Score: 1)
by Barry on Friday, March 14 @ 15:18:29 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Where is MY NAME? LOL ROFL
Has Tim Martin ever been in such great company?
LOL ROFL
Blessings to all in the Love of Christ.
Barry |
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- by MichaelB on Friday, March 14 @ 16:34:54 PDT
- by Barry on Friday, March 14 @ 17:23:54 PDT
Re: Symbolism of Heavens and Earth: National & Political, or Covenantal? (Score: 1)
 by Ed on Friday, March 14 @ 17:23:28 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Fred,
Since my last name was given to me by my father, I feel it imperative that if you are going to bring me into this, you would at least respect my name by spelling it correctly. If you could take the time to find out what it is, you could find out how to spell it.
It's BURLEY.
I don't know anyone named Ed Burely.
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- by Virgil on Friday, March 14 @ 17:36:43 PDT
- by Ed on Friday, March 14 @ 18:22:25 PDT
- by tom-g on Saturday, March 15 @ 08:53:57 PDT
- by plymouthrock on Monday, March 17 @ 14:03:59 PDT
Hey Kur... uhh... I mean Fred. Yeah, Fred! (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Friday, March 14 @ 22:38:04 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | What a remarkable coincidence!
This article is essentially the material in Kurt Simmons' presentations at the ongoing Carlsbad Eschatology Conference. The detail is absolutely amazing. Even down to the specifics of defining "the death" destroyed in A.D. 70 as "Hadean death" and the specific details of citing Newton, Lightfoot, Owen, etc. as Kurt did in his presentations!
I guess we are all supposed to just "get it" now that the Kingdom is national and political, NOT COVENANTAL as Kurt affirmed yesterday.
What are the chances of these most remakable coincidences all happening completely at random?
Hi Kur... uhhh, Fred. Thanks for your article that shows the stark contrast between your new eschatology and covenant eschatology.
Blessings,
Tim Martin
www.beyondcreationscience.com
P.S. Like I mentioned to you earlier today in person, you really should read Jordan's commentary on Daniel before making the statement that Isaiah 13 (referring to Babylon's judgment at the hands of the Medes) is not covenantal in any way whatsoever. Jordan points out that Babylon became the new temple in which the Jews would serve as God's priests. You know that metal sequence: gold, silver, bronze, and iron. Those are Temple materials (see 1 Chron. 22:2-16). Jordan points out that God built a new Temple for his people in Babylon BEFORE he destroyed the old one in Jerusalem. This is also what happened in the 1st century - God completed the new Temple before tearing the old one down.
Got that? Babylon is God's new Temple for his covenant people according to the metal sequence in the parallel texts. That makes Isaiah 13 entirely covenantal!! (See Jordan, Handwriting on the Wall, pp. 174-182 for a full exposition of Nebuchadnezzars conversion making him one of God's covenantal people and placing Babylon in covenant with God) Like I said, you really, really need to check out Jordan's commentaries to avoid glaring oversights like this in the future.
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- by Barry on Saturday, March 15 @ 08:17:06 PDT
- by tom-g on Saturday, March 15 @ 08:49:02 PDT
- by Barry on Saturday, March 15 @ 08:58:15 PDT
- by JL on Saturday, March 15 @ 17:59:57 PDT
Re: Symbolism of Heavens and Earth: National & Political, or Covenantal? (Score: 1)
 by davo on Saturday, March 15 @ 00:23:58 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) |
The figure of the heavens and earth in this passage is therefore easily seen to be national and political; it describes the overthrow of thrones and dominions, not the temple or its service. You guys always seek to force these things into either/or arguments for sake of your positions – surely one becomes indicative of the other, i.e., the temple service etc WAS at the heart of the national/political scene – THAT'S how it was in those days.Shaking of the heavens and earth at the eschaton was in no wise limited to Jerusalem and the Jews. The eschaton was a time of world-wrath, reaching from Italy, Spain, Germany, and Gaul, to Armenia, Asia, Egypt, and Palestine. One would have to be ignorant of world history at the time of Jerusalem’s fall not to see this. He would also have to be willing to overlook numerous passages of scripture that plainly signify the world-wide nature of the eschaton. … As Preterists, we have interpreted… the Hebrew writer in terms of Jerusalem’s fall, but, as we see, its actual, original, and intended scope was universal – the eschaton would be a time when all nations of the greater Roman world were shaken and the throne of heathen kingdoms overthrown. Again, splitting hairs for argument's sake – surely such turmoils were in kind with the temporal effect of Jerusalem's fall, INDICATIVE OF the covenantal reality focused in Israel's conflagration etc. Literally one lonely Jew among many in Israel crucified, YET the intended scope of His all atoning sacrifice was universal.It is axiomatic that if the eschaton involved the whole Roman world, then the heavens and earth dissolved at Christ’s coming was much more than Judea. Possibly… but the focus of God's redemptive dealings with that world centred in the world of Israel, i.e., Israel was the centre of God's universe.
davo
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Re: Symbolism of Heavens and Earth: National & Political, or Covenantal? (Score: 1)
 by JL (j.l.preterist@gmail.com) on Saturday, March 15 @ 17:53:21 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Kurt,
It was great to finally meet you. Too bad you didn't have more time to talk.
Blessings,
JL |
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Re: Symbolism of Heavens and Earth: National & Political, or Covenantal? (Score: 1)
by JL (j.l.preterist@gmail.com) on Saturday, March 15 @ 21:24:52 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Kurt's quote from BCS comes from about 2/3rds of the way through Chapter 4. We reference Scripture, Preston, and Noe, but no Max King.
The “Heavens and Earth”
Some might see the logic of that portion of Peter’s prophecy in reference to the passing away of the old covenant economy. But what about Peter’s previous statement:
By the same word the present heavens and earth are reserved for fire, being kept for the day of judgment and destruction of ungodly men. (2 Peter 3:7 NIV)
Surely, this must reference our entire universe? That is how many read it. But did Peter change subject midstream? No, he is making a symbolic reference to the Law of Moses and old covenant order defined by Israel. He is speaking along the same lines as the prophet Isaiah who communicates in much the same way:
But I am the LORD your God, Who divided the sea whose waves roared— The LORD of hosts is His name. And I have put My words in your mouth; I have covered you with the shadow of My hand, That I may plant the heavens, Lay the foundations of the earth, And say to Zion, “You are My people.” (Is. 51:15-16 NKJV)
Isaiah uses prophetic poetry to recount the crossing of the Red Sea as Israel left Egypt. God placed his words in Israel’s mouth at Sinai with the giving of the Law. Yet notice how the prophet alludes to Israel’s history as a creation of “heaven and earth.” Israel became God’s new creation at the time of the Exodus. Author Don Preston explains:
God gave His word to Israel to establish their world. Their world was spoken of here as the heavens and earth. This is confirmed when Jehovah says He gave the Word to Israel, not only to establish the heavens and earth but to make them His people. Isaiah places the establishing of the heavens and earth, and the entering into covenantal relationship as when God gave His law to Israel. This was at Sinai. Therefore, in the eyes of God and Israel, the heaven and earth were established at Sinai. Obviously not the physical creation, but the world of Israel.
Peter is speaking about the passing away of the heavens and earth in terms symmetrical with the prophet Isaiah. The difference is that, in Peter’s day, the Law and temple system had reached their designed end with the coming and work of the Messiah. Just as the formation of Israel and giving of the Law was the metaphorical creation of “heaven and earth,” so the destruction of the Judaic society, the Law, the priesthood, and temple would be the passing away of Israel’s “heaven and earth.”
Author John Noē also explains why 2 Peter 3 references the fiery destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in AD 70 by saying ...
It's pretty clear that Tim and I have the same covenantal view that Don Preston has and John Noe had before turning idealist, not universalist.
Kurt missed Don and John in his little list of universalists. It also isn't hard to find similar statements in Sam Frost's work. Is this an oversight? Afterall, we supplied the quotes Kurt needed to hang them both Don and John on pp 76-77. Or is this some sort of "game" Kurt is playing with what is ultimately his own form of universalism?
Kurt can't allow anything less than a universal destruction in AD 70, because he knows that anything less implies a covenantal flood and a covenantal creation.
So he'll do anything to scare people away from a covenantal understanding including false threats with the universalist boogey-man.
Covenantal denies universal. Covenantal implies some are in and some are out.
JL |
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- by davo on Sunday, March 16 @ 07:32:08 PDT
- by tom-g on Sunday, March 16 @ 10:11:10 PDT
- by Starlight on Sunday, March 16 @ 13:41:24 PDT
- by tom-g on Sunday, March 16 @ 15:15:41 PDT
Re: Symbolism of Heavens and Earth: National & Political, or Covenantal? (Score: 1)
by Starlight on Sunday, March 16 @ 20:47:10 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Kurt,
I just wanted follow up with you concerning the mention of Jim Jordan’s new commentary “The Handwriting on the Wall” at your conference. This is one of the most informative OT books that one can lay their hands on. I am a very strong backer of much of Jordan’s work except in early Genesis and late Revelation and even there he has much insight. His Daniel work is extraordinary because of his overall grasp of OT history and events. Don’t let the cost keep one from getting this book plus if you get it from American Vision you are helping Gary DeMar and his ministry which many of us recognize as one who agrees with much of our Preterist understanding.
Kurt unfortunately Jordan’s work does not support your total analysis of the reason for judgment upon many of the nations that you mention. There are parts of your observation that are ok and there is much where you have misapplied. Jordan actually validates Tim and Jeff’s Covenantal view while damaging yours. None of us validate Universalism which in many cases doesn’t care whether it appropriates a covenantal view of God’s people or your universal world wide view for their own purpose.
As one reads these following excerpts from Jordan’s book it will become quite obvious that the nations that received judgment were under the auspices of God’s covenantal oversight at the times. This is just a smidgen of his discussion and doesn’t do justice to his comprehensive treatment in which he demonstrates that you have misapplied an erroneous understanding to bolster your position.
The bottom line is that the Covenantal viewpoint stands validated as the correct one and causes the straightforward biblical expositor no injury when rightly applied and understood. .
Begin quotes:
Pg 39 &40
Assyria dominated the ancient world in the centuries before the exile of Judah. Sometime during the reign of Jeroboam II of Israel (832–792 bc), and probably toward the latter part of that reign, the Israelite prophet Jonah had been used by God to convert the city Nineveh and all its citizens to the worship of the true God. Jonah 3:5 and 4:11 indicate that God showed His mercy to the children of the city, so that we are entitled to assume that there were God-fearing people alive for the next seventy or so years in Assyria. … For some time, Assyria was relatively peaceful. This is the same as the period of time during which the generations converted by Jonah were having influence in Assyria.
Pg 39 & 40
Pg 42
Since Nahum has little to say about the sins of Judah, Judah may have been in a period of reform; though possibly this is because Nahum is preaching against Assyria, which had apostatized from her conversion under Jonah (“Dove”).
Pg 52 & 53
For three years Jehoiakim served Neco of Egypt, but then inthe spring of 605 bc, in Jehoiakim’s third year, Nebuchadnezzar defeated Egypt at Carchemish and conquered Palestine. Shortly thereafter, in the fourth year of Jehoiakim (which began in October of 605 bc), JEREMIAH TOLD THE PEOPLE THAT GOD HAD APPOINTED NEBUCHADNEZZAR KING OF KINGS, AND THAT ALL THE NATIONS INCLUDING ISRAEL WERE TO SERVE BABYLON’S KINGS FOR 70 YEARS (JEREMIAH 25).(my emphasis) He began his message by telling the people that he and other prophets had been preaching to them for 23 years, but that they had not listened. As a result, they were going to be given to judgment. Now, we have seen
Jeremiah lists the nations that would be given to Nebuchadnezzar in 25:18–26. Jeremiah 46–49 records letters sent to all these nations at this time. Egypt he mocks for their recent defeat at Carchemish, and he tells them that they will not be able to escape a full conquest by Nebuchadnezzar (Jeremiah 46). This message is discussed more fully below. He sends a letter to the Philistines also (Jeremiah 47). In a few years, in 601 bc, Pharaoh Neco will temporarily hold off Nebuchadnezzar and will conquer Gaza. But he will not hold it, and then the
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