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"Procreation still takes place during this era of time because those who survived the tribulation hour enter the Millennium with human bodies. The believers upon the thrones possess resurrected bodies and do not bear children, but the others do." -- Jack Van Impe |
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Preterism: Dogmatizing about Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell
Posted on Tuesday, October 23 @ 08:11:05 PDT by Valensname |
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by Kurt Simmons
We were recently forced out of the Mathison Response (together with several other writers) in a power play that attempted to compel all contributors to sign a doctrinal statement affirming their belief in Eternal Conscious Torment (ECT). We have made it our policy for years not to be drawn into this debate. We have regularly turned away inquiries with the answer that we are not expressing opinions on the topic. It is Preterism we are preaching and would prefer not to be distracted with this question, or see the movement further divided by it. Our conviction is that this is not an essential of the gospel and should not be made a test of fellowship or orthodoxy.
We believe that every man should be persuaded in his own mind and conscience, without fear of reprisal or retaliation. We want to maintain our policy of not being identified with either camp in this issue. However, in order to demonstrate the weakness of ECT and why it should not, indeed, cannot be made a test of fellowship, we offer the following points in evidence:
1 – There are only about 4-6 passages in the New Testament that directly speak to the idea of ECT. Of these, FOUR occur in Revelation amongst much symbology. (Rev. 14:10; 19:3, 21; 20:10) Sound principles of hermeneutics prohibit establishing any essential teaching of the church upon difficult or obscure passages, which cannot first be demonstrated elsewhere in passages that are obvious or plain. Because the symbolic language of Revelation is “difficult and obscure,” it cannot properly serve as the foundational source for the idea of ECT. That leaves only about two passages outside of Revelation that suggest the idea of ECT. The first is Matt. 25:46, where the Lord says that the wicked would go away to “everlasting punishment.” This passage is susceptible of numerous interpretations and we feel it is sufficiently ambiguous to prohibit dogmatizing about ECT. Heb. 6:2 speaks of “eternal judgment.” The same word occurs in both places (aionion).
The sense of aionion in Heb. 6:2 is “irreversible;” the judgment happens once for all. It is not pronounced again and again for all perpetuity. Likewise, the execution of a criminal happens once for all; it is eternal (aionion). This appears to be the meaning of aionion as used in Matt. 25:46; the translation there of aionion as “everlasting” punishment probably reflects the doctrinal bias of the translators. The sense and import of the term is eternal, not ceaseless or perpetual. The other passage is Jude 7 where Sodom and Gomorrah are said to have suffered the vengeance of “eternal fire.” Again, the same word is used (aionion). We ask “are the fires that enveloped Sodom and Gomorrah still burning?” Obviously not; the language is plainly poetic, like we see in so many passages of the prophets. Besides, even if it were granted that the fire is somehow eternal and unquenchable this would not be evidence that those it consumes are eternal and suffer endlessly. Concerning Rev. 19:3, David Chilton said: “The phrase [her smoke rises up forever and ever] cannot be pressed into service as a literal description of the eternal state of the wicked in general. The actual flames that consumed ‘Babylon’ burned out long ago; but her punishment was eternal. She will never be resurrected.”[1] We think this is equally true of Matt. 25:46 and Jude 7 – the idea is that the punishment is eternal, not ceaseless or perpetual. Perhaps there are one or two verses more the advocates of ECT can marshal. However, these are the main texts and, as we have seen, at best they are questionable. Can we in good conscience make ECT an “essential” of the gospel upon such equivocal evidence?
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Re: Dogmatizing about Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell (Score: 1)
by Virgil on Tuesday, October 23 @ 08:16:10 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Kurt, actually I agree with your article; it's excellent and you are making the same case I have been for a while now. However, what I am baffled by is this: you think it's a bad thing to "dogmatize" about ETC but it's not a bad thing to dogmatize about the age of the universe?
There are several passages that CAN be taken as advocating an eternal conscious punishment in the Scripture, but there are exactly zero passages talking about how old the Universe is. So what gives? How can something about the eternal purpose and destination of mankind NOT be a matter of orthodoxy, but something about the creation of the universe and its age be?
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Re: Dogmatizing about Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell (Score: 1)
by chrisliv on Tuesday, October 23 @ 09:41:17 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Yeah,
I like your policy and attitude about ECT, too. And for others to try to compel people to adhere or affirm as much seems very unreasonable, even if ECT is a reality.
I mean, in a similar fashion, most of the passages that are taken to be referring to full-memory consciousness in Heaven (FMCH) after physical death are mostly talking about life on Earth in a dimension of the Holy Spirit. In both cases, ECT & FMCH, I think there may be a known loss after death for those who reject Christ and a known gain for those who don't. But, when I see people with Alzheimer's, I wonder if the individual human spirit really has that great of a connection to the memory's stored in the physical brain, since major memory stores are often lost even before death.
So, yeah, dogmatizing about ECT seems unreasonable, if not slightly untenable from the Bible (the OT even seems to deny the immortality of the soul), and it doesn't seem to be a central part of the Gospel, either, even if it does exist.
Peace to you,
C. Livingstone |
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Re: Dogmatizing about Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell (Score: 1)
by valensname on Tuesday, October 23 @ 16:23:16 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | It just seems to me that passages that compare and contrast such as Daniel 12:2 that for some to be resurrected (after physical death) to everlasting life (a conscious existence forever in the spiritual plane of Heaven) while the others to everlasting abhorrence (LITV) that for the saved to have an eternal non-ending existence in "life" then for that to be true the opposite if you will - "abhorrence" also has to be everlasting. Or to say the unsaved cease to exist then so must the saved after life in this physical plane of existence - thus denying a afterlife, a Heaven - which is what non-preterist have been accusing some preterists of doing.
If one wants to take all these passages to only mean the judgment/resurrection at the Parousia and that is past, then I don't see how everlasting life could apply to anyone after the AD 70 events. Thus again denying Heaven for anyone past the AD 70 events or any type of Heaven for that matter. However, I see the application, the principal, the way as those that are saved to live eternally in the hereafter ("everlasting life" in Heaven) and those unsaved to live eternally ("everlasting abhorrence" in Hell, Lake of Fire, etc...).
I know people don't want to judge others now days but don't we preach that the only way to eternal life is through the Son of God, Jesus Christ? Is that not what the Bible plainly states? Then those not in the Son, do not have eternal life (also an unending conscious existence in the next realm after this physical one) and the Bible seems to plainly describe this as an eternal death. If one is eternal (life) then how can the other (death) not be eternal as well?
It would seem to me to say that if the unsaved cease to exist, then that is like saying the saved won some prize so to speak for a very brief space of time and that is it, they cease to exist just as the unsaved, the looses, don't get a prize and then they cease to exist.
Glenn |
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Re: Dogmatizing about Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell (Score: 1)
by judge on Tuesday, October 23 @ 17:55:14 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | | They've probably done you a favour. Thank them. |
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Re: Dogmatizing about Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell (Score: 1)
by Dana_Nathan_Salsbury on Tuesday, October 23 @ 22:31:41 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | I recently published a book called 'The Afterlife: A Biblical Journey to our Future Home'. My goal of the book -- to go beyond conjecture to the reality of what the Bible promises us when we die, and completely debunks ETC. It's a powerful, life-changing read (250 pages).
You can order it on Amazon or directly through my blog.
-Dana Salsbury
legacyhdv.com |
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Re: Near Death Experiences (Score: 1)
by Kyle Peterson (peterson.kyle@gmail.com) on Wednesday, October 24 @ 10:26:12 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Just for fun I've dabbled in reading the occassional testimonial and science behind near death experiences. So far, none of the accounts mention feeling anything but pure love after death. Now, I believe a few to have embelished their experience/s, and I don't know exactly how much we can rely on such data; but you'd be surprised at how similar each story is, one account after another, both christian and non.
I realize this isn't a biblical approach, but after doing a bit of reading on the topic it provides some insight. |
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Is there a forever conscious afterlife in Heaven? (Score: 1)
by valensname on Wednesday, October 24 @ 16:53:36 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Before discussing if ETC is true, what are people's views on any conscious existence after this physical life? Is there an afterlife? If there is how is this supported from Scripture? How does Scripture describe this afterlife, if at all?
My point is that preterists have not, in my opinion said much about what most Christians believe in, that is a Heaven, an afterlife that lasts forever and they see this as a better place to exists besides here on Earth in the physical realm.
So what is it? Is there a Heaven or not? Does one experience it in a conscious form as most Christians believe or all those that believe this completely wrong?
If we agree there is a conscious forever afterlife for believers, then maybe we can start discussing what happened, and now happens to unbelievers post-Parousia in light of Scripture such as Daniel 12:2, which Don Preston for one has debated well that this passage is dealing with the resurrection of spirits/souls/etc...of those that were physically dead pre-Parousia.
Glenn |
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Re: Dogmatizing about Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell (Score: 1)
by davo on Thursday, October 25 @ 04:23:19 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) |
The sense of aionion in Heb. 6:2 is “irreversible;” the judgment happens once for all. It is not pronounced again and again for all perpetuity. … This appears to be the meaning of aionion as used in Matt. 25:46; the translation there of aionion as “everlasting” punishment probably reflects the doctrinal bias of the translators. …the idea is that the punishment is eternal, not ceaseless or perpetual. The above accords with what I have noted many times here on PP and HERE – that "eternal" has strong QUALITATIVE connotations as opposed to the more fundamentalist quantitative expectations placed upon aionion.Rom. 6:23 says the wages of sin is death. Death, not ECT, was what God warned our first ancestors would be the penalty for their sin. Exactly… and with "the death" defeated and destroyed in the Parousia grace has much more abounded, to all. II Cor. 4:16 - But though our outward man perish – This verse is particularly on point. The outward man will utterly perish, and molder in the grave, and be no more. This again is an important point to consider – "annihilation" is relative to "this life" and this life ALONE, it has naught to do with post-mortem. The perishing [annihilation] of the outward man had no impact on the continuance of the inward man – Eccl 12:7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was, and the spirit will return to God who gave it.
For post-mortem annihilation to become a reality post-Parousia would have been an imposition by God of something different and something new. We know that prior to Hades being destroyed in the Parousia, wherein were ALL the departed, and thus out of which ALL were raised, that Jesus spoke of the death of a certain rich man, who in Hades "looked up…" – no pre-Parousia annihilation. As per the life/death cycle under the old covenant as recorded in the OT, no POST-MORTEM annihilationism here either.
Surely then, "biblical" annihilation is pertinent ONLY to the physicality of man, in other words – where destructive language is used in the Scriptures it describes the permanence of one's temporal and corporeal end; referencing the TOTALITY of PHYSICAL demise, and NOT looking beyond the grave as such. So no, the so-called unrighteous did not cease to exist – as Paul also makes plain in Act 24:15.
valensname: I know people don't want to judge others now days but don't we preach that the only way to eternal life is through the Son of God, Jesus Christ? Is that not what the Bible plainly states? Then those not in the Son, do not have eternal life (also an unending conscious existence in the next realm after this physical one)…
Yes the bible does plainly state that eternal life is found ONLY in the Son – when will we as believers also plainly state what the Bible, and in fact Jesus himself states "eternal life" to be – a RELATIONSHIP with God in this life, and NOT a spatial destiny post-mortem: Jn 17:3 And this IS eternal life, that they may KNOW You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. There is NO text of Scripture that purports "eternal life" to be the traditional fundamentalist teaching of "going Heaven when you die" – this is NOT discounting nor disputing what we commonly call "going Heaven when you die" it's just that there in NO text that says THIS is what "eternal life" is – Jesus plainly states WHAT IT IS and it is clear that it is qualitative and not quantitative, this life as opposed to the next; again not to deny life after life after death, but that's NOT what the text of Scripture say eternal life is.
davo – pantelism.com –
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Re: Dogmatizing about Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell (Score: 1)
by Sam on Friday, October 26 @ 15:34:07 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Science is God! The Bible is a ridiculous fable!
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Re: Dogmatizing about Eternal Conscious Torment in Hell (Score: 1)
by OSTRALOA on Saturday, October 27 @ 06:56:22 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Planet Preterist readers:
On the subject at hand. If one considers Ed, Jeremy & Virgil's "mythical" Book of Enoch it would seem to slam the door on this subject of conscious eternal punishment or rewards for the elect. However, since they will let the Christian persecutor Rabbi Akiba determine what "accepted Christian canon" should be and Julius Africanus' and his false "Sethite doctrine" that spread like wild fire through the Church in order to ban this book we are left with what we have today on the subject.
Regarding Kurt and his original posting. Seems he's finally jumped to more or less your side Virgil. It's not full universalism, but he's getting there to your joy as annhililationism is just a breath away be it neo-Arnobianism. His posting included the Revelation passages which he stated that only Satan was thrown into eternal punishment and no man, oh what of the beast and the false prophet??
What about evil souls today such as the Jewish Bolsheviks like: Yakov Yurovsky, Yakov Sverdlov i.e. Yankel Eiman or Lev Kamenev not to mention Gregory Zinoviev alias Hirsch Apfelbaum who murder 66 million people in Russia while their murdeous Cheka practiced and ordered the following on Christians priests & nuns simply because they were Christians. Victims were skinned alive, scalped, "crowned" with barbed wire, impaled, crucified, hanged, stoned to death, tied to planks and pushed slowly into furnaces or tanks of boiling water, and rolled around naked in internally nail-studded barrels. Chekists poured water on naked prisoners in the winter-bound streets until they became living ice statues. Others beheaded their victims by twisting their necks until their heads could be torn off. The Chinese Cheka detachments stationed in Kiev reportedly would attach an iron tube to the torso of a bound victim and insert a rat into the other end which was then closed off with wire netting. The tube was then held over a flame until the rat began gnawing through the victim's guts in an effort to escape. Denikin’s investigation discovered corpses whose lungs, throats, and mouths had been packed with earth.
Women and children were also victims of Cheka terror. Women would sometimes be tortured and raped before being shot. Children between the ages of 8 and 16 were imprisoned and occasionally executed.
Your going to give these people a little discomfort and then simply vanish their evil souls into non-existence. Come on Kurt et all, you gotta be kidding. Do you really believe annhilationism provides this God of love you say? Not.
Well, I posted a long article on this subject so I won't go on. I just ask, where where you Kurt when I ran that article? I only got a response from Ed and he didn't even deal with the issues raised. He just critized me once again and said I should have posted it as a lead article. Well, thanks for once for the compliment Ed. Surprises never cease. Anyway, that's my two centavos on this subject. Blessings.
For Christ & Kingdom,
Paul Anderson
Planalmira, Brazil
PS. Norm, I disagree and think it is Sam who hit the home run and Ed is the one who struck out. |
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Apology (Score: 1)
by Ed on Saturday, November 03 @ 09:26:54 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | I'd like to apologize to Rich for my response to him.
ed
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