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What was the appearance of God the Father? Like that of a man...God has the likeness of fingers and hands and a face. -- Good Morning Holy Spirit, (Benny Hinn, Word, 1991) p. 82 |
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by Albert Persohn Today, there are a few people who are pushing for a pre-70 AD date for the writing of the Apocalypse of St. John. Mostly these voices come from Protestant sectors and is due mainly to their presuppositions on how the Apocalypse is supposed to be interpreted. They claim that the “internal evidence” of the Apocalypse points to a pre-70 AD date. That conclusion, of course, is based on their idiosyncratic interpretations of Scripture, which are often at odds with Catholic interpretation. The bigger problem, however, is that the so-called “internal evidence” for an early dating of the Apocalypse runs smack into the patristic consensus which says it was written after 70 AD.
I found this interesting, apologies in advance to the many RC friends of Planet Preterist
The reason this is of concern for us is that some Catholics today have decided they are going to depart from the patristic consensus and not only push for a pre-70 AD date, but they do so because they also want to depart from the patristic consensus regarding the place and time of the Millennium of Apocalypse 20:1-6. The two ideas go hand-in-hand. They have decided that the Fathers were wrong in placing the Millennium during the Christian era, from the First Coming of Christ to the Second Coming. These new “theologians” claim that the Millennium should be in the Old Testament. In essence, instead of a Christian millennium that we have always believed, they now want a Jewish millennium. This is just another indication how Catholic teaching today is being Judaized, the very warnings I have given many times in the last five years.
Here is the upshot. There is no Father that supports a pre-70 AD dating for the Apocalypse. There isn’t a Father within 500 years that gives any explicit mention of Nero and Patmos in the same sentence, much less says Nero exiled John to Patmos prior to 70 AD, including the attempts of modern scholars to make Epiphanius depart from the consensus. Not until well into the Middle Ages does anyone suggest a pre-70 AD date for the Apocalypse, and they are few and far between (e.g., Theophlact, Andreas of Cappadocia).
There were only two Roman emperors who persecuted Christians on a massive scale, Nero and Domitian. In 67 AD, Nero killed St. Peter and St. Paul in Rome. But there is no record of Nero banishing any Christians to Patmos. Nero preferred to torture Christians by burning them and throwing them to lions.
Again, all the Christian and secular sources in the patristic era place the banishment of Christians to Patmos at the reign of Domitian (81-96 AD). No one places the banishment of John, or any Christian, under the reign of Nero.
Eusebius is one of our greatest sources, since he lived only two hundred years after Domitian’s reign. Every source that Eusebius could gather said that John was exiled to Patmos during the reign of Domitian. Eusebius’ earliest source was Irenaeus.
It is said that in this persecution the apostle and evangelist John, who was still alive, was condemned to dwell on the island of Patmos in consequence of his testimony to the divine word. 2. Irenaeus, in the fifth book of his work Against Heresies, where he discusses the number of the name of Antichrist which is given in the so-called Apocalypse of John, speaks as follows concerning him 3. “If it were necessary for his name to be proclaimed openly at the present time, it would have been declared by him who saw the revelation. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian.” (Church History, Book 3, Ch. 18).
Eusebius used other sources to confirm the same truth:
It is said that in this persecution [Domitian’s] the apostle and evangelist John, who was still alive, was condemned to dwell on the island of Patmos in consequence of his testimony to the divine word. Irenaeus, in the fifth book of his work Against Heresies, where he discusses the number of the name of Antichrist which is given in the so-called Apocalypse of John, speaks as follows concerning him: ‘If it were necessary for his name to be proclaimed openly at the present time, it would have been declared by him who saw the Revelation. For it was seen not long ago, but almost in our own generation, at the end of the reign of Domitian.’ To such a degree, indeed, did the teaching of our faith flourish at that time that even those writers who were far from our religion did not hesitate to mention in their histories the persecution and the martyrdoms which took place during it. And they, indeed, accurately indicated the time. For they recorded that in the fifteenth year of Domitian Flavia Domitilla, daughter of a sister of Flavius Clement, who at that time was one of the consuls of Rome, was exiled with many others to the island of Pontia in consequence of testimony borne to Christ (Church History, Bk. III, ch. 18).
Eusebius adds:
Tertullian also has mentioned Domitian in the following words: ‘Domitian also, who possessed a share of Nero’s cruelty, attempted once to do the same thing that the latter did. But because he had, I suppose, some intelligence, he very soon ceased, and even recalled those whom he had banished.’ But after Domitian had reigned fifteen years, and Nerva had succeeded to the empire, the Roman Senate, according to the writers that record the history of those days, voted that Domitian’s horrors should be cancelled, and that those who had been unjustly banished should return to their homes and have their property restored to them. It was at this time that the apostle John returned from his banishment in the island and took up his abode at Ephesus, according to an ancient Christian tradition (Church History, Bk. III, ch. 20)
Victorinus also holds to the same date. His information is independent of Eusebius. He writes:
“And He says unto me, Thou must again prophesy to the peoples, and to the tongues, and to the nations, and to many kings.” He says this, because when John said these things he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the labour of the mines by Caesar Domitian. There, therefore, he saw the Apocalypse; and when grown old, he thought that he should at length receive his quittance by suffering, Domitian being killed, all his judgments were discharged. And John being dismissed from the mines, thus subsequently delivered the same Apocalypse which he had received from God. This, therefore, is what He says: Thou must again prophesy to all nations, because thou seest the crowds of Antichrist rise up; and against them other crowds shall stand, and they shall fall by the sword on the one side and on the other. (Commentary on the Apocalypse, 11)
The time must be understood in which the written Apocalypse was published, since then reigned Caesar Domitian; but before him had been Titus his brother, and Vespasian, Otho, Vitellius, and Galba” (Commentary on the Apocalypse, XVII).
Clement of Alexandria gives the same information:
And that you may be still more confident, that repenting thus truly there remains for you a sure hope of salvation, listen to a tale, which is not a tale but a narrative, handed down and committed to the custody of memory, about the Apostle John. For when, on the tyrant’s death, he returned to Ephesus from the isle of Patmos, he went away, being invited, to the contiguous territories of the nations, here to appoint bishops, there to set in order whole Churches, there to ordain such as were marked out by the Spirit. (The Rich Man, XLII)
The “tyrant’s death” could only refer Nero or Domitian, since they were the only ones who severely persecuted Christians. Lactantius confirms this:
After an interval of some years from the death of Nero, there arose another tyrant no less wicked (Domitian), who, although his government was exceedingly odious, for a very long time oppressed his subjects, and reigned in security, until at length he stretched forth his impious hands against the Lord. Having been instigated by evil demons to persecute the righteous people, he was then delivered into the power of his enemies, and suffered due punishment. (Address to Donatus, Ch 3).
Clement refers to the release of those exiled and this matches Eusebius reference to the same at the death of Domitian. The emperor in view cannot be Nero because Clement refers to John as a very old man, which would not have been the case in 70 AD.
Clement quotes John as saying to an apostate thief:
“Why, my son, dost thou flee from me, thy father, unarmed, old? Son, pity me. Fear not; thou hast still hope of life. I will give account to Christ for thee. If need be, I will willingly endure thy death, as the Lord did death for us. For thee I will surrender my life. Stand, believe; Christ hath sent me….And he, when he heard, first stood, looking down; then threw down his arms, then trembled and wept bitterly. And on the old man approaching, he embraced him, speaking for himself with lamentations as he could, and baptized a second time with tears, concealing only his right hand. The other pledging, and assuring him on oath that he would find forgiveness for himself from the Savior, beseeching and failing on his knees, and kissing his right hand itself, as now purified by repentance, led him back to the church.” (The Rich Man, XLII)
We also know that John lived until after Domitian from Irenaeus’ references to Polycarp, John’s disciple. Polycarp was born in 65 AD and died in 155 AD. This makes him two years old when Nero died and five years old when Jerusalem was destroyed. Since Polycarp was taught by John, it must have been several decades after the destruction of Jerusalem.
Jerome testifies to the same, and also mentions Irenaeus and Justin Martyr as writing commentaries on the same connection between Domitian and Patmos. Notice how Jerome mentions Nero, but bypasses him to make the connection between Domitian and John’s exile to Patmos:
In the fourteenth year then after Nero, Domitian having raised a second persecution he was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse, on which Justin Martyr and Irenaeus afterwards wrote commentaries. But Domitian having been put to death and his acts, on account of his excessive cruelty, having been annulled by the senate, he returned to Ephesus under Pertinax and continuing there until the tithe of the emperor Trajan, founded and built churches throughout all Asia, and, worn out by old age, died in the sixty-eighth year after our Lord’s passion and was buried near the same city. (Lives of Illustrious Men, Ch IX).
Jerome testifies to the same truth in another work:
We maybe sure that John was then a boy because ecclesiastical history most clearly proves that he lived to the reign of Trajan, that is, he fell asleep in the sixty-eighth year after our Lord’s passion, as I have briefly noted in my treatise on Illustrious Men. Peter is an Apostle, and John is an Apostle – the one a married man, the other a virgin; but Peter is an Apostle only, John is both an Apostle and an Evangelist, and a prophet. An Apostle, because he wrote to the Churches as a master; an Evangelist, because he composed a Gospel, a thing which no other of the Apostles, excepting Matthew, did; a prophet, for he saw in the island of Patmos, to which he had been banished by the Emperor Domitian
As a martyr for the Lord, an Apocalypse containing the boundless mysteries of the future Tertullian, moreover, relates that he was sent to Rome, and that having been plunged into a jar of boiling oil he came out fresher and more active than when he went in (Against Jovinianus, Book 1, 26).
Sulpitius Severus says:
Then, after an interval, Domitian, the son of Vespasian, persecuted the Christians. At this date, he banished John the Apostle and Evangelist to the island of Patmos. There he, secret mysteries having been revealed to him, wrote and published his book of the holy Revelation, which indeed is either foolishly or impiously not accepted by many (The Sacred History, Ch 31).
Testimony to these Fathers is noted in one of the more detailed commentaries on this issue:
“The same is the recorded judgment of Jerome; the same of Augustine’s friend, Orosius; the same of Sulpitius Severus. Once more, we find an unhesitating statement of similar purport in Primasius; an eminent Augustinian commentator on the Apocalypse, of the sixth century. In his Preface to this Commentary, he speaks of the Apocalyptic visions having been seen by St. John when banished and condemned to the mines in Patmos by the Emperor Domitian” (Horae Apocalypticae, E. B. Elliott, vol. I, p. 36).
Hippolytus says:
John, again, in Asia, was banished by Domitian the king to the isle of Patmos, in which also he wrote his Gospel and saw the apocalyptic vision; and in Trajan’s time he fell asleep at Ephesus, where his remains were sought for, but could not be found (The Twelve Apostles, XLIX).
Regarding lone testimony of Epiphanius, Elliott states: “Nor can it be wondered at: seeing that as to any contrary statement on the point in question, there appears to have been none whatsoever until the time of Epiphanius, Bishop of Salamis in Cyprus, in the latter half of the fourth century: ...whose chief work, On Heresies, is decried ... as ‘full of blots and errors, through the levity and ignorance of the author:’ ...For he speaks of St. John having prophesied when in the isle of Patmos, in the days of the Emperor Claudius: --a time when... it does not appear from history that there was any imperial persecution of the Christian body whatsoever...” (Horae Apocalypticae, vol. I, p. 37).
He adds: “ ...another testimony to the early date of the Apocalypse. The subscription to a Syriac version of the book, written about the beginning of the sixth century, is thus worded; ‘The Revelation which was made by God to John the Evangelist in the island of Patmos, whither he was banished by the Emperor Nero.’ But of what value is this opinion, then first broached, as it would appear?” (Horae Apocalypticae, vol. I, p. 38-39).
Elliott also states that Domitian was often known by the name Nero, thus the confusion some scholars have with Nero and Domitian.
May not the mistake have arisen from Domitian having sometimes the title of Nero given him; and in fact the original writer of the Syriac subscription have meant Domitian, not Nero?” He includes in this footnote further proofs given in Latin of this title applying to Domitian (Horae Apocalypticae, vol. I pg. 39, footnote 1).
The Acts of John reports that John was indeed exiled under Domitian:
And the fame of the teaching of John was spread abroad in Rome; and it came to the ears of Domitian that there was a certain Hebrew in Ephesus, John by name, who spread a report about the seat of empire of the Romans, saying that it would quickly be rooted out, and that the kingdom of the Romans would be given over to another. And Domitian, troubled by what was said, sent a centurion with soldiers to seize John, and bring him. And having gone to Ephesus, they asked where John lived.
And when all were glorifying God, and wondering at the faith of John, Domitian said to him: I have put forth a decree of the senate, that all such persons should be summarily dealt with, without trial; but since I find from thee that they are innocent, and that their religion is rather beneficial, I banish thee to an island, that I may not seem myself to do away with my own decrees. He asked then that the condemned criminal should be let go; and when he was let go, John said: Depart, give thanks to God, who has this day delivered thee from prison and from death.
And having prayed, he raised her up. And Domitian, astonished at all the wonders, sent him away to an island, appointing for him a set time. And straightway John sailed to Patmos, where also he was deemed worthy to see the revelation of the end. And when Domitian was dead, Nerva succeeded to the kingdom, and recalled all who had been banished; and having kept the kingdom for a year, he made Trajan his successor in the kingdom. And when he was king over the Romans, John went to Ephesus, and regulated all the teaching of the church, holding many conferences, anti reminding them of what the Lord had said to them, and what duty he had assigned to each. And when he was old and changed, he ordered Polycarp to be bishop over the church. (Acts of the Holy Apostle John, Exile and Departure).
This agrees with Eusebius’ account:
But after Domitian had reigned fifteen years, and Nerva had succeeded to the empire, the Roman Senate, according to the writers that record the history of those days, voted that Domitian’s honors should be cancelled, and that those who had been unjustly banished should return to their homes and have their property restored to them. 11. It was at this time that the apostle John returned from his banishment in the island and took up his abode at Ephesus, according to an ancient Christian tradition. (Church History, Book 3, Ch 20).
At that time the apostle and evangelist John, the one whom Jesus loved, was still living in Asia, and governing the churches of that region, having returned after the death of Domitian from his exile on the island. 2. And that he was still alive at that time may be established by the testimony of two witnesses. They should be trustworthy who have maintained the orthodoxy of the Church; and such indeed were Irenaeus and Clement of Alexandria. 3. The former in the second book of his work Against Heresies, writes as follows: “And all the elders that associated with John the disciple of the Lord in Asia bear witness that John delivered it to them. For he remained among them until the time of Trajan.” 4. And in the third book of the same work he attests the same thing in the following words: “But the church in Ephesus also, which was founded by Paul, and where John remained until the time of Trajan, is a faithful witness of the apostolic tradition.” 5. Clement likewise in his book entitled What Rich Man can be saved? indicates the time, and subjoins a narrative which is most attractive to those that enjoy hearing what is beautiful and profitable. Take and read the account which rims as follows: 6. “Listen to a tale, which is not a mere tale, but a narrative concerning John the apostle, which has been handed down and treasured up in memory. For when, after the tyrant’s death, he returned from the isle of Patmos to Ephesus, he went away upon their invitation to the neighboring territories of the Gentiles, to appoint bishops in some places, in other places to set in order whole churches, elsewhere to choose to the ministry some one of those that were pointed out by the Spirit. (Church History, Book 3, Ch 23).
The Original:
http://www.catholicintl.com/catholicissues/Late_Date_for_Apocalypse.pdf
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Albert Persohn is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com. Albert Persohn is the senior pastor of Botany City Church in Sydney, Australia, a church of two congregations, one English and one Indonesian. Albert has a heart for small churches and a desire to plant churches in Australia. He was born in Canada in '58, served with Wyclife Bible Translators in Equador, the Philippines and Australia as an Electronics tech.
View Albert Persohn archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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Re: Catholic Dating Of The Apocalypse (Score: 1)
by judge on Wednesday, October 17 @ 21:26:04 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Most of the patristci evidence may point to a later date , but then again most of the patristic evidcne is wrong WRT eschatology also.
Secondly, the very forst verse tells us these things were to "soon take place".
What might this refer to if it was written after 70 AD? |
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- by ThomasS on Tuesday, October 23 @ 00:52:18 PDT
Re: Catholic Dating Of The Apocalypse (Score: 1)
by Duncan2 on Tuesday, October 16 @ 08:51:56 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Here is a little something I wrote that pertains to this issue:
Here are the first twelve Caesars (Julius Caesar to Domitian) to show the likely possibilities of where “five have fallen, one is” puts the date of Revelation.
1. Julius Caesar (49-44 BC)
2. Augustus (31BC- AD 14)
3. Tiberius (AD 14-37
4. Gaius a.k.a. Caligula (AD 37-41)
5. Claudius (AD 41-54)
6. Nero (AD 54-68)
7. Galba (AD 68-69)
8. Otho (AD 69)
9. Vitellius (AD 69)
10. Vespasian (AD 69-79)
11. Titus (AD 79-81)
12. Domitian (AD 81-96)
With the solution that I (and most other conservative preterists) propose, that one starts with Julius Caesar, the five fallen are Julius, Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius, Claudius, the one reigning is Nero (AD 54-68). This fits perfectly the preterist contention that the book of Revelation was written near the end of Nero’s reign (c. AD 65) right before the Jewish war of AD 66-70.
The latest one can legitimately make the “five have fallen one is” of Revelation 17:10 would be to start the count of the emperors with Augustus instead of Julius. If one then doesn’t count the short lived emperors (Galba, Otho and Vitellius) this would make the five that had fallen, Augustus, Tiberius, Gaius, Claudius, Nero, the one reigning would be Vespasian (69-79). Notice that even using this late date method of counting, one comes up with Revelation being written in the decade of the 70’s. This is approximately two decades short of the proposed time of AD 95 that the late date advocates maintain.
If Revelation were written during Domitian’s reign then Revelation 17:10 should either read, “eleven have fallen one is” (if one starts the count with Julius Caesar and includes the three short lived emperors in the list) or “ten have fallen one is” (if one starts with Augustus and includes the three short-lived emperors), or “eight have fallen one is” if one starts with Julius and excludes the three short lived emperors or “seven have fallen one is” (if one starts with Augustus and excludes the three short lived emperors). Saying that Revelation was written during Domitian’s reign simply can not legitimately be made to fit Revelation’s text of “five have fallen one is.” As Ladd noted, “no method of calculation satisfactorily leads to Domitian as the reigning emperor…” [Ladd, Commentary on Revelation 229]
If one wants to see what a book written during the reign of Domitian looks like, one should look at 2 Esdras (a.k.a. IV Ezra). In that book, the beast (an eagle, a symbol of Rome) has twelve wings, representing twelve emperors (Julius-Domitian) and three heads, which are the last three of the twelve emperors (Esdras 11:1-9). The three heads represent the Flavian dynasty, Vespasian, Titus and Domitian, (2 Esdras 12:10-30). The writer of 2 Esdras thought that Rome would fall in his day during the reign of Domitian, the twelfth Caesar.
To summarize: Depending on whether one starts with Julius or Augustus and includes or excludes Galba, Otho, and Vitellius, then Domitian is either the 8th, 9th, 11th, or 12th ruler of Rome. There is no legitimate way to make him the 6th ruler (as Rev. 17:10 requires).
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Re: Catholic Dating Of The Apocalypse (Score: 1)
by Starlight on Tuesday, October 16 @ 05:21:52 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Al,
By equating Revelation to a Post 70AD date you are rendering it as uninspired scripture according to Daniel.
(Dan 9:24 NRSV) "Seventy weeks are decreed for your people and your holy city: to finish the transgression, to put an end to sin, and to atone for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, TO SEAL BOTH VISION AND PROPHET, and to anoint a most holy place.
Daniel is clearly prophesying that there will be no more visions of prophets after Jerusalem’s destruction.
(Dan 12:6 NRSV) … "How long shall it be until the end of these wonders?" … that when the shattering of the power of the holy people comes to an end, all these things would be accomplished.
Blessings
Norm
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- by EWMI on Tuesday, October 16 @ 06:26:37 PDT
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Re: Catholic Dating Of The Apocalypse (Score: 1)
by chrisliv on Monday, October 15 @ 23:13:42 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Well,
Most every Preterist will know, that besides the internal evidence (which references a still standing Jerusalem) for a pre-70 AD writing for the Book of Revelation, there is one known ancient manuscript that actually begins its first verse stating the time of its writing as during the "reign of Nero".
It's not the oldest manuscript, but it is well-known and didn't surface recently, I''m pretty sure.
Peace to you,
C. Livingstone |
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- by mazuur on Tuesday, October 16 @ 05:18:29 PDT
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Re: Catholic Dating Of The Apocalypse (Score: 1)
by ThomasS on Tuesday, October 16 @ 00:30:22 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | There are few compelling arguments for a pre-70 Date of the Apocalypse; most of these arguments are based on assumptions rather than facts. Unfortunatley, we cannot know for sure when the Apocalypse was written. Thus, we have to accept the possibility that it was written before, during or relatively long after 70 CE. This will have to have som impact on our interpretation.
Several Catholics have advocated an early date. The majority of scholars thinks the text was written after 70 CE. Both dates are in harmony with the classic, conservative preterist position.
Regards
Th.S. |
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