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News: New podcast episode: Jesus, Heaven and Hell
Posted on Sunday, July 29 @ 14:45:58 PDT by Virgil

Preterism A couple of weeks ago I spoke at Miami Valley Church on the parable given by Jesus in Luke 16 about Lazarus and the rich man. We turned this into a podcast episode and I am hoping it will make sense to most folks.

You can download the MP3 file here: http://planetpreterist.com/...

If you are a subscriber, you should already have it in iTunes.


 
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1st century Judaism held belief in Hadean netherworld (Score: 1)
by Parker on Tuesday, July 31 @ 06:32:36 PDT
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Hi Virgil.

I think the easier answer is simply to recognize that 1st century Judaism widely held the belief in an Hadean afterlife/underworld--like the one Jesus described in Luke 16 and which also appears in Revelation. It is a fact that the 1st century Jews had fully embraced this understanding of the underworld. To attempt to make Luke 16 about something else, therefore, is an almost impossible task. The original audience was fully familiar with Christ's description of the Hadean realm--they were raised with the view and had themselves held the belief.

Best,



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Re: New podcast episode: Jesus, Heaven and Hell (Score: 1)
by OSTRALOA on Friday, August 03 @ 04:27:52 PDT
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Parker,

The whole jest of the matter is that Virgil, Jeremy & Ed are attempting to prop up their false theory of “mythical Hades” borrowed from a “false Greek myth” to support their annihilationist ideas. Without Hades or any lake of fire their is no punishment, no punishment and there you have their end goal, annihilationism of the wicked.

Problem is for them, there is no support of this in Scripture. The Bible never, I repeat never says any soul is annihilated in the past or future i.e. pass out of existence. They will bring O.T. words like destroy, cut off and so on and so forth to support this notion, but these words in Hebrew and their complimentary words in Greek never support such a thing as annihilationism. Universalism it’s twin brother it too is simply unsupported in Scripture. If they can’t deal with the Greek and passages which slam the door on this error I suggest for them to split off into their own version universalist-annihilationist preterism. It will divide us in the end anyway as it is currently now doing.

Of course the “Greek Hades” had compartments or divisions between receptacles for the evil and the righteous. They simply were not thrown into the same boat prior to A.D. 70. Virgil’s defense begs the question. I could also say that the Hindu notion of Krishna has myth in his story. Yes, but that doesn’t answer the facts that Krishna was not a real person as history shows he was. Same thing for Hades of the Christians. Greeks knew their was a Hades or a receptacle under the earth for the souls of the dead. It was not the grave or some annihilationist state. If the Gospels use the word Hades for this place, that does not mean it didn’t exist. Virgil, Ed and Jeremy say well, since they allegedly borrowed words in current usage by pagans that means the “truth” behind the notion is not correct. This is simply cut and past theology to attempt to bolster their notions.

I would be so bold as to proclaim evangelical futurists would do well to criticize this preterist movement for upholding such unscriptural doctrines. In the end it will fail if it reverts to such errors and rightly so. Was Hades a Greek myth? Did Jesus use non-truths based on Greek myth to prop up his teaching? Wrong! One error leads to another.

In conclusion, I suggest everyone out there read Alan Gomes' two part article entitled, “Evangelicals and the Annihilationism of Hell” for a correct biblical perspective on the subject. A futurist, yes, and radical? No. A hater of grace and love? No. Alan Gomes is a solid Christian scholar. Finally, Let’s get back to Scripture and stop this post-modern notion of this false gospel of universal love and annihilationism.

For Christ & Kingdom,


Paul Anderson
Planalmira, Brazil


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Re: New podcast episode: Jesus, Heaven and Hell (Score: 1)
by OSTRALOA on Sunday, August 05 @ 06:11:13 PDT
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Norm,

This response is addressed to you. I was out of the office now I can respond. This issue is really quite simple all one has to do is turn to Scripture again for the answer without presupposition.

You asked me if Hades i.e. Sheol was a real literal place under the earth. Yes it was. That's not what I say that's what Scripture says. Notice the verse in Philippians 2:10. "That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow in heaven and on earth and under the earth". Mind you this being pre-A.D. 70, the Greek word kataxthoniwn is correctly translated for those "in the subterranean realm."

The above verse could be coupled with Rev. 5:3 for those "under the earth". Was this the grave? Hades or Sheol was always said to be down in the earth and heaven above. So where is this under the earth? I would have you locate a book written around 1911 by a Christian pastor Rev. Marshall Gardner (not a crazy new age nut)entitled, "Journey to the Earth's Interior" for more details. Notice from where Samuel ascended out of in I Sam. 28. It wasn't the grave either.

The truth of the so called "Hollow" or caverness Earth was also advanced by Sir Edmund Halley and Leonard Euhler. The Book of Enoch also verifies the location of former compartments of Sheol as being in the far midddle of the earth. I know, Jeremy, Ed and Virgil, you'll say that's that book borrowed from Greek myth won't you?

What I want to ask the naysayers out there is. Okay, so you don't believe in a literal location for Sheol. So where did the souls of the departed go pre-A.D. 70? Soul sleep? Wrong! Did the reprobate and blessed get thrown into the same boat? No. So if the earth is solid to the center or nothing but molten lava or solid nickel as suggested by secular science what of the caves? Are there more or other deeper? Notice that science in their main articles say, We think the earth is this or that at the center. You mean they can go to the moon and can't tell what's at the center of our own earth for sure? Come on who are they try kid. I'll also suggest having you ask your airlines why are the coordinates 141 East 84 North are prohibited flying zones?

Regarding Norm your question on the sea in Rev. 20:13. We are dealing with a time where many people died at sea. Look at the next verse in 20:14, the sea was not thrown into the lake of fire only "the death and the hades" The sea was not the sea does not and never was a place in Scripture where the departed went. Only sheol or hades. Souls did not go to the grave. Annihilationists also confuse the destiny of the pneuma (spirit) or (breath of God) with the (psuche)soul. Of course the spirit is eternal, but the soul depends it's eternalness upon the pneuma. Notice in Gen. that God breathed into Adam the (Ruach or spirit) and made him a living (soul, Nephesh). Scripture categorically states that whether this side of eternity or the heavenly side our psyches are never "disembodied".

The pneuma or spirit only describes the eternal etheral nature of the soul. The soul or individual psyche is the continuation of the individuality on passing from death in mortality to our eternal immortality in heaven. Please review the words pneuma spirit and psyche soul in a word study. It will more than clearify this issue.

This subject of sheol, hades and the the location of it's proper place within the caverns of the middle earth should be studied more and dealt with more in preterism and seminary study. The problem being they both believe in the secular science model that tell them what is exactly there so thet are really in the same sides on this subject. I suggest word studies in Greek, the Book of Enoch and questioning the accepted scientific model of the earth for the correct answer. Until this is done there will be only confusion on the subject or ignoring it all together. Blessings.

For Christ & Kingdom,

Paul Anderson
Planalmira, Brazil

P.S. Rich, by the way p

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Re: UFOs? (Score: 1)
by Jer on Sunday, August 05 @ 09:49:29 PDT
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Ostraloa (A.K.A Paul Anderson) writes: I'll also suggest having you ask your airlines why are the coordinates 141 East 84 North are prohibited flying zones?

From UFO ROUNDUP Volume 8 Number 50 December 31, 2003:

"The most plausible location for a north polar opening that leads into the interior of the Earth is located at 84 degrees North latitude and 141 degrees East longitude," the Web site stated, "Don't miss this chance to personally visit that paradise within our Earth via the North Polar Opening and meet the highly advanced, friendly people who live there. We are of the opinion that they are the legendary Lost Tribes of Israel who migrated into the North Country over 2,500 years ago and literally became lost to the knowledge of mankind."


http://www.ufoinfo.com/roundup/v08/rnd0850.shtml


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  • Re: UFOs? by Ed on Sunday, August 05 @ 09:59:01 PDT
Re: New podcast episode: Jesus, Heaven and Hell (Score: 1)
by OSTRALOA on Sunday, August 05 @ 11:32:52 PDT
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For Tami, Virgil, Ed & others who responded,

For Virgil I would say. Now just how far has man dug? Not to the center? Why not? Anyone wanna guess how far man has dug down? 5 miles, 7 miles not more? Really?? Don't have the technology? Virgil, just how far does all that molten lava go down 400-800 miles are you sure? All wager with you no more than 100 at most.

Ed for you, hellfire, UFO's, eternal punishment so on and so forth? You can't more? Surely if you can you'll come up with those wacky futurists bent on all that torture and hellfire cause God is such a bad God according to us hellfire people right?? After all, why wouldn't he have put Jerusalem good old Babylon through such torture during it's seige since he had all that luuv. Oh, and your exegesis I would not recommend. Grave=Sheol? UHH!! SDA or what? Where's your Greek from?

Seriously, I see that this has turned up some steam, I will leave off here and suggest that the responders follow thorough on goood ole' John Bray's maxim, Keep digging. You just may find your answer! Blessings.

For Christ & Kingdom,

Paul Anderson
Planalmira, Brazil

P.S. No one answered why 141 East and 84 N is forbidden overflight. Critical comments of a couple on the expedition doesn't answer why. Couldn't get an answer? Keep trying.


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Re: New podcast episode: Jesus, Heaven and Hell (Score: 1)
by Ed on Sunday, August 05 @ 12:02:07 PDT
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Paul has challenged my GREEK. Funny thing is: Sheol is HEBREW. But, let's not get confused with the facts here. That aside, let's talk Hebrew for a moment.

The Hebrew words used for grave include qĕbuwrah (5 times), qeber (25 times), and Sheol (35 times). The former two words both mean the physical place of burial. Sheol, on the other hand, is used 31 times to signify the "abode of the dead."

Now, since Paul said, I think, that my Greek was bad, let's look at the NT. The Greek words for Grave include: mnēmeion (which is translated Grave or sepulchre), and Hades. The most notable use of Hades as Grave is 1 Cor 15:55, where it says "O death, where [is] thy sting? O grave, where [is] thy victory?"

So, as I said in my previous post, the use of the word GRAVE, when meaning post-mortem life, is always a translation of the word Sheol or Hades, which we know, from the Septuagint, are the same.

I would ask that Paul, in the future, stick to biblical arguments, and cease from his rantings that have no basis in biblical truth.

ed


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Re: New podcast episode: Jesus, Heaven and Hell (Score: 1)
by Ed on Sunday, August 05 @ 12:12:32 PDT
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I forgot one other point that I wished to make. Paul, as others have, continues to MOCK God for loving people. He mocks me for saying that God is love, when it is certain that He brought judgment upon Israel in AD70. Well, DUH! I'm a preterist, aren't I?

Let's look at this logically. Had Paul bothered reading the article by Sam Dawson that I referred him to countless eons ago (would forever be appropriate here?), he would know that his use of Jerusalem's destruction does not help his case, but in fact, helps mine. Let me 'splain.

Paul says that God can't be loving, because He destroyed Jerusalem. My point has always been against the claim that God will TORTURE people endlessly. In using Jerusalem's DESTRUCTION, he misses the point. DESTRUCTION is just that - destruction. It is NOT endless torture. Is Jerusalem still burning? Are the unbelievers trapped there by the Romans still suffering in the physical city? We know that they are not.

However, as annihilationism teaches, the souls of the wicked would be destroyed. Just as the wicked in Jerusalem were destroyed in AD70. No contradiction here. Even in the non-annihilationist position that I embrace, any punishment that occurs is temporary, as it was in Jerusalem. The punishment comes, causes the suffering intended, and then ceases.

Nowhere in scripture is there found an example of endlessly torturing someone for their sins. Only in the minds of men can such a thing be found. In fact, as I've pointed out numerous times, and never received an answer from Paul or anyone else who agrees with him (don't want to use the word "ilk" here for fear of another round of pugilism), if endless torture is THE God-ordained punishment for sin, why didn't Jesus have to suffer endless torture? He "became SIN for us" didn't he? No, he conquered death. In his physical death, he conquered the spiritual death that Israel suffered. He rose from the dead, so that Israel might rise from the dead. Those who did not believe in him PERISHED; i.e., were destroyed in Jerusalem's destruction. This was the Curse of the Law. Jesus removed it for those that believe.

ed


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Re: New podcast episode: Jesus, Heaven and Hell (Score: 1)
by OSTRALOA on Thursday, August 09 @ 12:50:23 PDT
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Greetings Planet Preterist readers,

INTRODUCTION

I have decided to address an issue apparently drawing much attention with Planet Preterist not only on this site, but as a defining issue for the future of preterism in general. Instead of going back and forth with Ed, Jeremy, Virgil and others on this subject, I have been led to make a more defining argument for the biblical position for the truth and reality of Hades, eternal punishment against the errors of annihilationism. A sound biblical argument can also be effectively made against the current preterist brand of universalism, yet since Kurt, Sam, Don. P. and others have dealt with this somewhat and it’s ramifications, my scope will be more limited to a discussion of annihilationism, Hades and other related topics.

It can be demonstrated that annihilationist doctrinal error for certainty was first entertained by the 4th century Latin apologist Arnobius of Sicca.(1) Within current mainstream futurist evangelicals adhering to the annihilationist position include John Stott of All Soul’s, Clark Pinnock, Stephen Travis and various SDA and of course our JW and Mormon friends. On the other side stand scholars including Robert Morey, Greg Beale, and Alan Gomes among many other mainstream evangelicals. Consistent preterism seems to be increasingly divided on this issue and its related issues.

Within preterism more specifically,it is the universalist doctrinal error that has captured more attention, however among many preterists, the annihilationist view has been held as a more merciful way of dealing with the reprobate while not totally embracing the notion of comprehensive grace as it is often termed i.e. universalism.

To address this issue I will be proposing a formula of sorts demonstrated through equations addressing the annihilationist error followed by an equation illustrating the biblical reality of Hades and the eternal lake of fire. I will then proceed to give a list of various points with verse counts to prove the inconsistency of the annihilationist view as opposed to the biblical truth on the subject.

I would also like to state that consistent preterism which has generally opposed annihilationism and its ramifications has thus far not effectively countered this doctrinal error due to its own weaknesses in textual exegesis of related biblical texts. Adherents among preterism that post on PP such as Jeremy, Ed, and even our own Virgil are well equipped to deal with any weak arguments against this viewpoint. This does not make the error correct though as I will later demonstrate. I do suggest for the future that consistent preterists be better equipped in the Scriptures and in other ways such as direct or indirect debates to counter this growing error within preterism.

Before turning to more specifics on annihilationism and scriptural evidence to the contrary, I have been asked in various replies to posts I have made on PP to deal more with the background on Hades, the place of departed souls in the underworld. I require this though to include a brief background on hell in world cultures to make this article complete. This I will do in my following first section.

HADES IN HISTORY & CULTURE

It has been suggested by several contributors on PP that Hades or the place of torment of the wicked was a borrowed from Greek mythology. I would say right off that no solid evidence on this has been provided by anyone on PP. Let the following shed some light on falsity of such a notion.

The word hell comes from Hel of Old English and Old Norse Hell was and remains historically and culturally a belief of a place of torments in the subterranean realm of departed souls. This has been believed in by many cultures that antedate Greek culture by millennium. Many of these cultures and religions picture the concept of Hell as a place of conscious torments of the wicked dead temporarily in a purgatorial role others as an eternal in dura

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