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April 5, 2000. "This day begins with plague, bloodshed and all type of pestilences..." -- Michael Rood |
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Exclusive: Why Simmons Is Wrong: A Tour de Force Written During le Tour de France
Posted on Wednesday, July 11 @ 21:04:44 PDT by Samuel Frost |
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by Samuel Frost My first argument is the easiest to reveal the incompetence of Simmons. I had a good laugh over this one. Simmons wants his readers to think that the Greek article is of no real importance. Yet, anyone can read any grammar (I have about seven of them) to see that this is false. He notes that the Greek article appears before names, like, "the Jesus said..." Why the article? Simple. It is specific. Names are very limited and specific, and thus the article often accompanies them. It's just the Greek way.
His second clumsy mistake was to note that "not one" (italics his) translation agrees with my translation. All I have to do here is produce one translation to prove Simmons false. Young's Literal Translation: "because of this, even as through one man the sin did enter into the world, and through the sin the death; and thus to all men the death did pass through, for that all did sin." Notice the articles. Romans 5.14 shows that Young translates, "the death." I could go on, but if you happen to have a Young's, read Romans 5.12-21. Score one for Frost, 0 for Simmons.
His next very bad comparison is to make me sound like I am inventing a translation akin the New World Translation (NWT) of the Jehovah's Witnesses. False. Since Simmons has not been schooled in Greek, and since he does not teach Greek, his "knowledge" here is deficient. The NWT makes a case that "a" god in John 1.1 is a legitimate grammatical point. Fact of the matter is Greek has no indefinite article (no "a"). The second fact of the matter is that my translation is a literal rendering of the Greek. Why, then, does English not bring out "the"? Simple. When we learned translation under the rigors of seminary training (which Kurt has none), we heard the concept of "smoothing out" the Greek to make it readable in English. To the Greek, "the death" was perfectly readable because it's Greek to the Greek! To the English reader, "the Jesus said" is not "smooth English." But, amazingly, Simmons is trying to make the point that since "the" is not in most of our English translations, then it is not really there, and of not much importance to exegetical considerations! If Simmons tried to sell this line of garbage to any Greek professor, they would laugh him out of the class and tell him to continue pursuing law. Score: Frost, 2; Simmons, 0.
Finally, I'll leave the reader with a quote from someone who actually knows Greek, wrote a well-received textbook on the subject, and should put this baby to rest. "There is no more important aspect of Greek grammar than the article to help shape our understanding of the thought and theology of the NT writers." And, "...[T]he article is able to turn just about any part of speech into a noun and, therefore, a concept. For example, "poor" expresses a quality, but the addition of an article turns it into an entity, "the poor." It is this ability to conceptualize that seems to be the basic force of the article" (Greek Grammar Beyond The Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament, Daniel B. Wallace, Zondervan, 1996, pp. 208,209). Now, Paul consistently used "the death" and "the sin." "Sin" is just a quality. "The Sin" is an entity, a concept. Paul is not, then, talking about individual sins, but the very concept and definition of the Sin. If Simmons would actually read technical commentaries that deal with the Greek text, he would see that they talk about the article and the concept of "death." Frost, 3; Simmons 0.
Click here to read the entire article
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Samuel Frost is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com. Samuel is a MA Pastor of Christ Covenant Church in Tampa Florida. He is the author of Misplaced Hope and Exegetical Essays on the Resurrection of the Dead, both available in the PlanetPreterist bookstore.
View Samuel Frost archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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Average Score: 3.66 Votes: 6
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Re: Why Simmons Is Wrong: A Tour de Force Written During le Tour de France (Score: 1)
by OSTRALOA on Thursday, July 12 @ 04:54:23 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Sam,
Great response and reply. I feel though after seeing Jeremy Lile's theories coming up again, Davos' along with Virgil and Ed's ideas your next step would logically to be to debate these universalist "comprehensive grace" people and add a rebuttal to the Arnobian error of Annihilationalism as well. Just a thought. Again, you and Kurt are both solid and had great points from both sides.
Blessings from Brazil
For Christ & Kingdom,
Paul Anderson
Planalmira, Brazil |
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Re: Why Simmons Is Wrong: A Tour de Force Written During le Tour de France (Score: 1)
by jaredcoleman (jaredcoleman@gmail.com) on Thursday, July 12 @ 05:52:42 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | | Nice response, Sam. There's lots of helpful information in there. Thanks! |
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Re: Why Simmons Is Wrong: A Tour de Force Written During le Tour de France (Score: 1)
by SuperSoulFighter on Thursday, July 12 @ 12:59:17 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | "There is no more important aspect of Greek grammar than the article to help shape our understanding of the thought and theology of the NT writers." And, "...[T]he article is able to turn just about any part of speech into a noun and, therefore, a concept. For example, "poor" expresses a quality, but the addition of an article turns it into an entity, "the poor." It is this ability to conceptualize that seems to be the basic force of the article" (Greek Grammar Beyond The Basics: An Exegetical Syntax of the New Testament, Daniel B. Wallace, Zondervan, 1996, pp. 208,209).
Good quote and insights, Sam! I'm reminded of the obscurity of Irenaeus' statement concerning the date of the Book of Revelation's composition - OR the date of the author's having been seen publicly. The Greek article is the point of contention in Irenaeus' statement and is, indeed, a matter of great importance in evaluating the original text. Good points.
JM |
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Re: The Personification Of Sin And Death: Nice To Meet You Mr. Sin, Mr. Death! (Score: 1)
by chrisliv on Thursday, July 12 @ 18:03:24 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Well,
I'm not picking sides here, but I will mention a middle way on a main point Sam uses for his argument.
The "the" isn't really helpful in English, in my opinion, and is obviously why virtually all English translations don't include it.
I mean, "the death" and just "death" are not an elegant solution at Romans 5:14-21. Same thing with "the sin" and "sin".
Even using capitals on both "the" and "sin" or "death" ("The Sin" or "The Death") don't work well as that implies one supreme or particular type.
What I think works best, in English, is just the capital "S" or "D", without the "the" or the "The", rather than just "death" or "the death" to demonstrate the condition or personification of Sin and Death.
So, even in English, however inelegantly, we can easily see from the context that a "Reign of Sin and Death" is contrasted with a "Reign of Grace" at Romans 5:21.
Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone |
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- by Sam on Thursday, July 12 @ 23:45:55 PDT
- by chrisliv on Friday, July 13 @ 04:08:43 PDT
- by tom-g on Friday, July 13 @ 06:19:10 PDT
- by Believability on Friday, July 13 @ 07:39:14 PDT
- by tom-g on Friday, July 13 @ 09:00:44 PDT
- by Believability on Friday, July 13 @ 19:53:46 PDT
- by tom-g on Saturday, July 14 @ 07:05:36 PDT
Re: Why Simmons Is Wrong: A Tour de Force Written During le Tour de France (Score: 1)
by Malachi on Saturday, July 14 @ 06:32:20 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Sam et al,
Virgil is tardy in posting my final contribution in this debate. I sent it to him Friday morning, but he has not got around to posting it yet. I will post it at my website this morning. |
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