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[The Spirit of God]...declared in the earth today what the eternal purpose of God has been through the ages...that He is duplicating Himself in the earth -- John Avanzini, "The End Time Manifestation of the Sons of God |
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by Samuel Frost When I initially finished this piece, the debate with Kurt Simmons was not in the forefront. Recently, however, it has come to the forefront. The basic charge is laid out that the "corporate view" necessarily leads to Universalism. Now, I am a student of Logic proper, and I use the term "necessarily" in the logical sense. That is, like math, 4 necessarily follows 2+2. What Simmons alleges is that Max King's view as outlined in The Cross and the Parousia necessarily leads to Universalism, even though Universalism is explicitly denied in that book.
Now, it is true that King may have changed his views. I believe that he has changed his understanding of "all" in passages like Rom 5.18; I Co 15.22 and "all Israel shall be saved." I believe, also, that passages like "every knee shall bow to the glory of the Father" are taken quite literally. However, on pages 485-486 in King's book, he decidedly rejects Universalism and shows convincingly that it is the biological definition of death that leads to Universalism.
Now, King may have changed his views on such passages, but the point to notice is that his view of covenant eschatology and corporate identity between Adam and Christ is not affected in the least. It is not the point of contention that Simmons is making it out to be. In other words, Beck, King and Tim King may in fact be Universalists, but they did not get there because of the corporate view. They allegedly got there through another route, most notably upon a reflection of the grace of God, who God casts out and who he keeps in, and upon what basis does he do so. This hardly has anything to do with the corporate view and it is Simmons' full responsibility to show that the corporate view necessarily leads to Universalism. If he merely argues that some who have come to accept the universalist concept also accept the corporate view, then he has merely argued ad hominem. Or, more logically, propter hoc. That is "after this, therefore because of this", which every logician will tell you is a fallacy. No, what Simmons must prove is that it is no mere coincidence that some who hold to the corporate view have also come to accept the universalistic view because it is the necessary, logical step. That it is, in fact, the corporate view itself that leads to universalism. Finally, he must also show not from his own exegesis, but from the exegesis of King and myself (who he has consistently lumped together) that we lead to Universalism.
Now, with the above being said, this first part will deal with the framework of Full Preterism. My second part will then deal with the corporate view which I fit into this framework. It is the framework, however, that dictates to me that the swallowing up of "the Death" for "all peoples" does not, and cannot, lead to Universalism.
http://thereignofchrist.com/...
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Samuel Frost is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com. Samuel is a MA Pastor of Christ Covenant Church in Tampa Florida. He is the author of Misplaced Hope and Exegetical Essays on the Resurrection of the Dead, both available in the PlanetPreterist bookstore.
View Samuel Frost archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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Re: Debate with Kurt Simmons, Part 1 (Score: 1)
by gfl46 on Friday, June 29 @ 07:43:28 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | The swallowing up of death is conditional. It applies only to those who are CHRISTS.
John 3:16 ...... Whosoever believeth in HIM should not perish, but have everlasting life.
John 3:3-8 ........except a man be born again......
Those who die without CHRIST are dead!
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- by Virgil on Friday, June 29 @ 08:00:50 PDT
- by gfl46 on Friday, June 29 @ 11:39:14 PDT
- by Virgil on Friday, June 29 @ 13:40:47 PDT
- by Sam on Friday, June 29 @ 09:37:49 PDT
- by MichaelB on Friday, June 29 @ 09:41:03 PDT
- by MichaelB on Friday, June 29 @ 10:29:18 PDT
- by Virgil on Friday, June 29 @ 10:54:02 PDT
- by tom-g on Friday, June 29 @ 12:22:44 PDT
- by thebigbus on Friday, June 29 @ 12:44:44 PDT
- by MichaelB on Friday, June 29 @ 14:29:33 PDT
Re: Debate with Kurt Simmons, Part 1 (Score: 1)
by thebigbus on Friday, June 29 @ 12:46:19 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | A great article, Sam. I posted some tangential questions on your forum as well, regarding "the sin" and how Christ's atonement affected that for Gentiles...
Hope you are well,
Jordan |
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Re: Debate with Kurt Simmons, Part 1 (Score: 1)
by JohnRiffe (prophecyandhistory@heavenlyjerusalem.net) on Friday, June 29 @ 17:52:03 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | From: http://prophecyandhistory.com/?q=node/146
I respectfully request that a debate regarding the Resurrection take into account all verses pertaining to the Resurrection that Paul was yearning to attain, especially these below:
Here are the Words of holy men of God as they were moved by His Spirit:
Hebrews 9:27 ~ penned in around 62AD
It is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the Judgment.
Romans 8:11-13 ~ penned around 56AD
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall [future to 56AD] also quicken your MORTAL BODIES [PLURAL, Greek="soma"] by his Spirit that dwelleth in you [plural].
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live [present, 56AD] after the flesh, ye shall [future to 56AD] die: but if ye through the Spirit do [present, 56AD] mortify the deeds of the body [soma], ye shall [future to 56AD] live.
Romans 8:22-23 ~ penned around 56AD
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth [present, 56AD] in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan [present, 56AD] within ourselves, waiting [present, 56AD] for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body [soma].
Matthew 10:28
28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear Him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.
Mark 9:43-48
43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:
46 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
47 And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out: it is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire:
48 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
John 5:28-29
28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear His voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the Resurrection of Life; and they that have done evil, unto the Resurrection of Damnation.
Daniel 12:2
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Acts 24:15 ~ Paul, around 58AD, after being arrested in Jerusalem
there shall [future tense] be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Philippians 3:10-14 ~ penned between 57-63AD
The fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 if, by any means, I may attain to the Resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already attained, or am already perfected; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind [adherence to the Law of Moses] and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the UPward CALL of God in Christ Jesus.
NKJV
1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 ~ penned around 51AD
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus WILL [future to 51AD] God bring with him.
15
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- by tom-g on Saturday, June 30 @ 06:36:05 PDT
Re: Debate with Kurt Simmons, Part 1 (Score: 1)
by flannery0 on Sunday, July 01 @ 03:44:18 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | from the article:
"Paul's reasoning is causal, and this is often missed. In 5.12 he used the phrase "so also" which is causal. The effect was that "the death passed to all" of whom Eve is the mother. Stick with Genesis 3 when reading Romans 5."
I have no problem with saying that the all to whom death passed (Romans 5) is the same all of whom Eve is the mother. The problem I have is with applying either to all mankind. Eve being the mother of "all the living" is not addressing the entire human race any more than Paul is addressing the entire human race in Romans 5.
This article is helpful in seeing the context of all in Romans 5:
http://eschatology.com/romans5.html
What is interesting is how many "Calvinists" would agree with above article, and yet inconsistently apply "all the living" in Genesis to the entire human race.
This is perhaps a small point, but it is foundational to many other points of this debate.
Tami |
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- by Sam on Sunday, July 01 @ 19:17:13 PDT
- by Sam on Sunday, July 01 @ 19:20:27 PDT
- by MiddleKnowledge on Sunday, July 01 @ 20:00:05 PDT
- by Starlight on Sunday, July 01 @ 20:53:58 PDT
- by MiddleKnowledge on Sunday, July 01 @ 21:14:59 PDT
- by Believability on Monday, July 02 @ 07:09:49 PDT
- by Starlight on Monday, July 02 @ 09:01:56 PDT
- by flannery0 on Monday, July 02 @ 07:25:40 PDT
- by dwhochner on Monday, July 02 @ 12:42:46 PDT
Re: Debate with Kurt Simmons, Part 1 (Score: 1)
by flannery0 on Sunday, July 01 @ 04:50:27 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | a question about this:
" Everything that follows this story is to be seen in light of this story. From Noah to Abraham to Moses to Christ, all of these stories illustrate these opening scenes of Genesis. They are all patterned after the Exile and Promised Restoration motifs. Abraham "goes down" to Egypt, and so does Jacob. Moses leads them "out of" Egypt and "into" a land much like the description of Eden. They break God's laws and are "exiled". Jesus goes "down to" Egypt and crosses the Jordan. David did, too. David "ascends" a "second time" to the throne of Jerusalem and as a result, "unites Judah and Israel", and then comes the glory of Solomon. All of these stories have the same patterns to them. They each illustrate the Story to Come, the one Story that will end all stories and wrap them up into one. It is within this framework that we must read Paul."
Every one of these examples is 'covenantally' contextualized: that is, every one of them applies only to Israel....except one apparently: Noah's flood. That one was global, universal, 'planetary'. So, when you write, "it is within this framework that we must read Paul": which framework? The global one, like Noah, or the covenantal one, like in all the other examples you gave?
Tami
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- by Starlight on Sunday, July 01 @ 05:16:17 PDT
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Re: Debate with Kurt Simmons, Part 1 (Score: 1)
by OSTRALOA on Tuesday, July 03 @ 05:33:45 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Sam,
I would like to thank you from down here in Brazil for your excellent article you posted on your website.
Misguided assumptions and opinions of man suggest that that the covenantal view excludes any relevancy to what happens to the individual at biological death. Yet biological death is not all she wrote. Obviously there is the covenental importance to the anastasis as well in A.D. 70.
Yet the annihilationst would have us believe the reprobate all go into the wild blue yonder of annihilationism. This is unsriptural as I believe you could show too. Universalism is related to annihilationism in many ways in it's errors.
I would like to see the universalist and the annihilationists leaners and advocates out there in preterism to challenge you to debate or vice versa. Just look where Todd has fallen off too unfortunately. I think following this debate you should challenge their spokesman and put these two unblblical positions to rest in preterism for good. The Lord might just use you to save what's left of the face of preterist scholarship. Blessings.
For Christ & Kingdom,
Paul Anderson
Planalmira, Brazil |
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Re: Debate with Kurt Simmons, Part 1 (Score: 1)
by mazuur on Wednesday, July 04 @ 12:24:36 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | ok Sam I need some help.
I am in Genesis 4 verses 11-16. Is this not a repeat. Like Adam, Cain sinned and 1) the ground is curse for him vs. 11-12, 2) like Adam, Cain is banished from the Presence of God vs. 16.
That is too strange.
Also, if Cain, because of Adam, was already banished from the Presence of God, how can it be said in 4:16 that he is banished from God's presence? Surely one can't be banished twice.
I am really starting to find many things in Genesis that before I never considered.
-Rich |
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