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Watch me! You watch me and this Mr. Cessna man here, I'll be the first preacher to buy a brand new, spankin' new, brand new jet that will fire all over this world. Get that sucker out of that glass hanger!...You can say all you want, Jack. I'll fly by your house and tip the wing. I'm gonna get something for Jesus. I'm gonna do something for God.
-- Jesse Duplantis Show, Trinity Broadcasting Network, October 8, 1997
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Preterism: Simmons Challenges Max King to Debate
Posted on Monday, June 18 @ 13:09:50 PDT by John |
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malachi submitted: "Kurt Simmons, author and president of Bimillennial Preterist Association, has challenged Max King to meet in debate next March at the Carlsbad Eschatology Conference to discuss the “corporate body” view of the resurrection. “It just seemed like it was time” Simmons said. “The connection between the “corporate body” view and Universalism, and the recent controversy surrounding the latter makes it important to get this issue out before the public for discussion” said Simmons.
The corporate body view holds that the eschatological resurrection consisted in raising the dead body of Israel under the law to spiritual life in Christ. According to Simmons, “King began by affirming only that the Jews and church were raised corporately, but in recent years this has been expanded by King and his followers to embrace all men, resulting in a type of Universalism.” “King needs to come clean and come out, front and center, and declare his position,” said Simmons. “The false gospel of Universalism is hugely irresponsible and King has done much to advance this notion among Preterists in recent years. It is time for Max to come forward and defend his views,” said Simmons. The challenge, emailed to King's Presence Ministries June 18th, read as follows:
I am writing to inquire about Max’s willingness to meet in debate next March at the Carlsbad Eschatology Conference. One of the undecided issues facing Preterism today is the question of the corporate body view as presented by Max in his books and articles. We feel this would be an interesting topic and one that is timely. This is the more true in light of the connection between the corporate body view and Universalism, and the controversy that has recently emerged regarding the latter. Although there are others who might be engaged to affirm the corporate body view that are not connected with Presence Ministries, it seemed appropriate to approach Max first, since he has furthered that view more than anyone else. If Max is unwilling to meet in debate, we would be open for someone else from Presence Ministries to take his place.
Sincerely,
Kurt Simmons
Carlsbad Eschatology Conference
preteristcentral@zianet.com
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Re: Simmons Challenges Max King to Debate (Score: 1)
 by Jhedges on Monday, June 18 @ 13:37:33 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | | Interesting... |
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Re: Simmons Challenges Max King to Debate (Score: 1)
 by Ransom on Monday, June 18 @ 14:17:09 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | | Good move, Mr. Simmons. With any luck (and according to all likelihood), the elderly Max will decline, and then Kurt can claim the victory nolo contendere! And everyone will know once and for all that Max is an eeeeevil universalist heretic. |
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Re: Simmons Challenges Max King to Debate (Score: 1)
 by Life14all on Monday, June 18 @ 15:08:14 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | First of all, welcome back Malachi. If I would of read this debate challenge last week I would of been all for it. The problem I now have is this, Max King is more than just a name to me. He is someone I now call my friend.
I was invited to the Presence Conference in Atlanta this past week. Mr. King, who didn't know me from Adam himself, took the time everyday we were there to answer our questions and share many things with us on a personal level. Granted, to debate this man would bring you (Kurt Simmons) much exposure but Max King is more than just a big name in our fulfilled view of Scripture. He is the most sincere and gracious man I have ever met in my life. I believe his most comfortable spot in the whole world is his office set against the backdrop of Pike's Peak and not in a debate setting any longer. He's been there and done that and he done it well.
Listen to your own words; “King needs to come clean and come out, front and center, and declare his position,” said Simmons. “The false gospel of Universalism is hugely irresponsible and King has done much to advance this notion among Preterists in recent years. It is time for Max to come forward and defend his views,” said Simmons."
It sure sounds like your assuming that Mr. King is hiding in the mountains of Colorado and that you believe he teaches a false gospel of redemption that goes beyond what the cross of Christ provided for "all" mankind. Max King doesn't have to come forward and defend anything that Scripture has already stated in God's Sovernity over His own creation.
Be patient and wait for his book on Romans to be published. I heard over three hours of lecture's by Mr. King this past week and I have never in my life heard a more learned and studied position of Paul's letters ever before.
Debate can be good and serves a useful purpose at times. If Presence Ministry decides to take up this challenge then so be it. But ask yourself and be honest. Is this debate more for the clarification of these issues or a platform where Mr.Simmon's can one day say I debated the great Max King. If it is truly about the issue's then don't make it like a prize fighter calling another one out to show how tough he thinks he is by saving a world from false teaching's that has already been saved through one's man's righteousness alone. Whoops, am I implying the U word in that last statement. I am, U for unconditonal love from God's perspective and not from our own limited view's clouded by our definitions of right or wrong.
Blessings,
Jim Kessler
www.InChristVictorious.com
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- by Jhedges on Monday, June 18 @ 15:58:16 PDT
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Re: Simmons Challenges Max King to Debate (Score: 1)
by Sam on Monday, June 18 @ 15:22:24 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Kurt,
I'll debate you. I doubt seriously that Max will debate you.
Samuel Frost |
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Re: Simmons Challenges Max King to Debate (Score: 1)
 by Ed on Monday, June 18 @ 18:56:11 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | I have been on this site for several years, and I never once saw Max here. Why is it then that, two weeks after Kurt declared emphatically that he was disassociating himself with Planet Preterist, does he show up HERE to challenge Max King to a debate.
Kurt: enough already. Get out of here. Leave us alone. Take your ball and go home.
enough is enough,
ed
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Re: Simmons Challenges Max King to Debate (Score: 1)
by Reformer on Monday, June 18 @ 22:02:54 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Hey Kurt, et al., what about a three-way debate?
Instead of just an either/or format, what about a third position that the reality of resurrection is a both/and proposition?
Re: the supposed connection with Universalism, what about another third position that this belief is not contingent upon or necessitated by either resurrection position?
Perhaps, some competent debater out there in preterist circles might see the wisdom behind this third approach and be willing to defend it ??? |
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- Shall We Dialogue? - (Score: 1)
 by davo on Monday, June 18 @ 22:34:21 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) |
Kurt, you recently wrote to me expressing: "Discussion can be profitable to the cause of truth, allowing others to hear opposing views, and decide for themselves the best view concerning contested questions." I agree. Now as I informed you, I am in Australia and thus traveling to your neck of the woods is a little prohibitive for a number of reasons, HOWEVER – is there any reason why our respective "inclusive/exclusive" views cannot be discussed here on PlanetPreterist between ourselves; for thus far your interaction with me on this subject, one you claim to be so ruinous, has been grossly minimal on your part – what say ye, shall we dialogue here?
davo – pantelism.com –
PS: As much as I respect and appreciate those mentioned, I do not speak for Max or PMI – they don't need me to.
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Re: Simmons Challenges Max King to Debate (Score: 1)
by Sam on Thursday, June 21 @ 00:27:45 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Kurt,
I am working on it. It takes some time. I work until 3:00 in the morning with my business. I have three children under 10. I am married. I sleep. Then I get up and work again. Sorry I don't have an article to you when you immediately want one.
Secondly, last I checked, I am not Max King. Your view is that the CORPORATE VIEW, regardless who holds to it, leads to Universalism. For you to say that my view, which is largely King's view, is "irrelevant" is lawyer-ese. I am currently writing an article proving, PROVING mind you, and Dubois, and Dennis, as FALSE. You are reactionists, and alarmists. You see a flimsy connection between things and yell FIRE when there is no fire. I am on my 12th page now.....and no where near finished. By next week I'll have it posted. Until then....put your gun back in your holster.
Sam |
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Debate proposition and rules (Score: 1)
by Malachi on Friday, June 22 @ 05:48:15 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Hi Sam,
Since we are engaging in a debate, it is seems appropriate that we adopt a proposition and some rules about length, etc.
I am affirming that "Universalism is a necessary consequence of Max King's "covenant eschatology" and "corporate body view", both as formulated by King, and adopted and synthesized by Sam Frost." (The last part has been added as a concession to you, since you want to vindicate you own views as they may differ from King's.) You are denying this. Normally, the affirmative would go first, but since you have already started writing we will let that go.
Naturally, you want to present your own version of "covenant eschatology" and the "corporate body view." That is fine, provided you first deal with King's version (which is the whole reason this debate arose in the first place. If you no longer endorse King's view, please say so.) If Jack Scott wants to write the part dealing with King's view for you, fine.
There should be a limit to the pages we write, just as in an oral debate there are limits to time. Fifteen, 12 pt., type-written pages should be more than adequate to state ones case. From my experience preaching, it takes about 5-6 minutes per page. Fifteen pages at 5 minutes a page is one hour. That is more than anyone is usually allowed in an oral debate to make their case (excepting response, of which I propose we each be allowed one). If you can't state your case in fifteen pages you need to edit superfluous material, and keep to the point. It is not my job to wade through a mass of confused and disorganized and irrelevant material to try to identify your main points and arguments. By keeping the page numbers to a reasonable limit, it helps ensure the clarity and precision of your writing. If for some reason fifteen pages is not enough, allowance can be made for additional pages upon request.
If these terms are not to your liking, please get back with me ASAP so we can settle upon them.
Kurt |
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Frost-Simmons Debate Trailer (Score: 1)
 by KingNeb on Friday, June 22 @ 21:01:07 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | | http://thereignofchrist.com/index.php?option=com_seyret&task=videodirectlink&id=14 |
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Re: Simmons Challenges Max King to Debate (Score: 1)
 by Believability on Sunday, June 24 @ 08:23:36 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | I do not pretend to speak on behalf of Max although I have known him, his wife and his sons now for many years.
As a young minister of the gospel just beginning to move in the direction of preterism about 20-years ago, I had the opportunity to discuss various aspects of eschatology with Max in a "one-to-one" setting. Even though he has studied this subject for 40+ years never once did he ever seek to persuade me in the direction of acceptance of the "corporate body view" of the resurrection. When I asked him questions his response was always respectful and amazing: "What did YOU find when you were studying this text? Let me know..." His interest was ever in the direction of allowing each student of the word explore the beauty and majesty of Scripture for himself and to stand before God in good conscience based upon the conclusions he had drawn.
Max has been challenged to debate hundreds of times through the years and with the exception of the one oral debate with Gus Nichols and the one written debate with Jim McGuiggan he has consistently declined, choosing instead to expend his energies in the direction of advancing in his study of the word.
Would Max King condemn the IBD (Individual Body at Death) view of the resurrection? Although his writings are a testimony as to his position of resurrection, he would still encourage each person to determine the answers for himself.
Having looked at both sides of the issue and knowing good, honest believers who disagree with each other, I would contend that the covenantal "corporate body view" is more consistent with the redemptive theme of Scripture in maintaining the connection with Israel (collectively).
Those who accept the CBV (corporate body view) are often misrepresented as believing that nothing pertaining to "resurrection" lies beyond the A.D. 70 consummation. The "collective" action of raising and transforming Israel, redeeming them from the power of the grave as manifested by the Law in its inability to save mankind is NOT mutually exclusive from saying that the one time event HAS everlasting consequences for those who are believers today.
The Cross was a "once-for-all-time" event with everlasting benefits and implications for everyone, not simply those living during the first century. Likewise, the resurrection concept in delivering Israel (collectively) has everlasting implications for individuals living beyond that event.
Acceptance of the CBV does not necessarily imply that one is forced into universalism because of that view. The one does not imply the other. When Paul and other inspired writers use terms such as "all Israel" it implies "all" within the scope of a certain category. The universal "all" of Scripture is not inclusive of every one "individual" but "all" within a certain, collective category.
I do not condemn Kurt Simmons for his zeal in nipping at the heels of one of the stature of Max, but I honestly believe his pursuit is misplaced and unfounded. I have discussed some of the concerns people have expressed directly with Max on several occasions within the past year and until I hear the words come directly from his mouth, or in print, I can only say that his view does not appear to have changed substantially from that which he held in his "The Cross and the Parousia of Christ" book written in 1987.
According to my understanding he will have a new book addressing Romans 9-11 sometime in the near future which should answer many of the questions surrounding this controversy.
I am not condoning or condemning Presence Ministries for their stance on a number of issues with which I may or may not disagree.
Each of us must pursue our own study of the resurrection to our own satisfaction. I do not believe that one can understand the concept apart from covenant Israel. Otherwise, our eschatology reverts in the direction of futurists who displace Israel in one way or another. What happ
Read the rest of this comment... |
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RESURRECTION VERSES - a must for any debate (Score: 1)
by JohnRiffe (prophecyandhistory@heavenlyjerusalem.net) on Monday, June 25 @ 12:10:02 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Romans 8:11-13
11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, [b]he that raised up Christ from the dead shall [future] also quicken your MORTAL BODIES [PLURAL, Greek="soma"] by his Spirit that dwelleth in you [plural].[/b]
12 Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh.
13 For if ye live [present] after the flesh, ye shall die [future]: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify [present] the deeds of the body (soma), ye shall live [future tense] .
Romans 8:22-23
22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth [present tense] in pain together until now.
23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan [present tense] within ourselves, waiting [present] for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body [soma].
Acts 24:15 ~ Paul ~58AD after arrest in Jerusalem
there shall [future to 58AD] be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.
Philippians 3:10-14
...the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death, 11 ; but I press on, that I may lay hold of that for which Christ Jesus has also laid hold of me. 13 Brethren, I do not count myself to have apprehended; but one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind [adherence to the Law of Moses] and reaching forward to those things which are ahead, 14 I press toward the goal for the prize of the UPward CALL of God in Christ Jesus, [1 Thess 4:16].
How did Christ die? How was Christ resurrected? How did Paul want to imitate Christ in His sufferings, His death & resurrection?
I respectfully request that the proposed debate on Resurrection effectively deal with the entire collection of passages dealing with the subject and not just cherrypick a few, Matt 4:4.
A collection of resurrection Scriptures is found here:
http://prophecyandhistory.com/?q=node/146 |
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