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Born Bad
Posted on Wednesday, April 25 @ 08:00:47 PDT by Kent

Debate Calvinism forms the underpinning of much Protestant thought today, and a keystone for the rest of Calvinism's Five Points is the very first, the T in TULIP: Total Depravity. What is the exact meaning of this doctrine? Here are the points it generally offers, which one will find repeated in various forms throughout works in favor of TULIP:

Sin corrupts the whole person -- emotions, will, and intellect.

Although this is so, we are not as bad as we could be; we could be worse. We are, as Palmer puts it, not as intensively evil as possible; but we are as extensively evil as possible. [Palm.5P, 9] For example, while we as individuals may lie and cheat, this does not mean that we will go as far as murder.

We are incapable of a truly good act of our own selves. Any good deeds we do (outside of Christ) is merely a "relative" good deed. A truly good deed is done for the glory of God; unbelievers are incapable of this.

The supreme point following from these three: We are unable of ourselves to turn to Christ to be saved.

To read more go to: http://www.preterism-eschatology.com/Born Bad.htm

 
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Re: Born Bad (Score: 1)
by Ed on Wednesday, April 25 @ 10:22:49 PDT
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This article may seem to be an attempt by a Calvinist to tone down the rhetoric, but we must look at the facts of, first, what Calvinism actually teaches in its confessions, and secondly, how that relates to covenant eschatology.

First, the Westminster Confession states that "they...became...wholly defiled in al the parts and faculties of soul and body." (VI, 2) In the same section, it states "From the original corruption, whereby we are utterly indisposed, disabled, and made opposite to all good, and wholly inclined to all evil, do proceed all actual transgressions." (VI, 4).

In the Heidelberg Catechism, it asks in question 8, "Are we then so corrupt that we are wholly incapable of doing any good, and inclined to all wickedness?" The answer from the catechism is "Indeed we are, except we are regenerated by the Spirit of God."

The Second Helvetic Confession, section VIII, paragraph 2 proclaims, "And we take sin to be the natural corruption of man, derived or spread from our first parents unto us all, through which we, being drowned in evil concupiscence, and clean turned away from God, but prone to all evil, full of all wickeness, distrust, contempt, and hatred of God, can do no good of ourselves - no, not so much as think any..." (all references here are from "Reformed Confessions Harmonized" by Joel Beeke and Sinclair Ferguson, Baker House Books).

I don't think that more needs to be said concerning how Calvinists see humanity. Palmer is denying his own theology by stating that we could be worse than we are. Those of us who were elders in a conservative Reformed denomination know better than to believe that powder-puff claims of embarrassed Calvinists.

With that said, I'd like to take a look at what the logic conclusions of covenant eschatology are concerning what we find in Calvinist teaching.

I participate in a Yahoo group. This group is well known to most here, and I love them all. However, one man in particular doesn't seem to have a very good grasp of preterist thought. He states that we will not be "free from this body of sin" until we die. He refers to his human body as "the flesh." And he brings himself and others under great condemnation with his comments.

I propose that covenant eschatology/preterism demands an understanding of things differently. Jesus came to "finish transgression, put an end to sin." He appeared once to do away with sin. Sin's power was the Law, but Jesus fulfilled the Law. Believers are freed from "the law of sin and death." John states that "whoever is born of God cannot sin." How could he make such a claim? Because Jesus put away sin, nailing it to the cross, making a spectacle of its principalities and powers (pharisees and sadduccees).

Let's start living in the freedom bought by Christ. Let's stop condemning others with a Law that we cannot keep ourselves. And let's stop condemning ourselves, when God himself has declared us righteous.

ed


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  • Re: Born Bad by Virgil on Wednesday, April 25 @ 10:43:19 PDT
Re: Born Bad (Score: 1)
by Life14all on Wednesday, April 25 @ 10:24:05 PDT
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Kent,

Does being born make us incapable to love or to receive love? There are many Scriptures that address the conditions men are born into, both good and bad. Some are brought forth for one purpose and others are brought forth from the womb for quite different purposes. I believe the message of the gospel isn't universal love as much as it was universal truth. Truth teaches us to love honestly.

Here is a quote from the article;

"We are incapable of a truly good act of our own selves. Any good deeds we do (outside of Christ) is merely a "relative" good deed. A truly good deed is done for the glory of God; unbelievers are incapable of this."


My first thought after reading this was, "Yea, but God sure did love His harlot's":-)

Jos 6:17 "And the city shall be accursed, [even] it, and all that [are] therein, to the LORD: only Rahab the harlot shall live, she and all that [are] with her in the house, because she hid the messengers that we sent."

Other notable bible characters that played the harlot were Tamar, Judah's daughter in law, Samson sure loved his harlot's,Gomer who represented old covenant Israel who played the harlot, possibly Magdalene and of course, Jerusalem in the Revelation.

It seems God has a purpose for all His creation both good and bad. Although, I do believe it is only by grace through faith in Christ that we are saved I also believe I was drawn to this grace by no desire of my own. On this point I can agree with the Tulip crowd.

I guess I am the oddest sort of Christian in that I feel there is truth to be found in all of the church's history and her doctrines. And because of this I find it hard to cut anyone off because I don't understand what they believe. Christ victorious is all that should really matter. And on that truth alone is where I'll make my final stand!

Blessings,
Jim K.



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Re: Born Bad (Score: 1)
by Ed on Wednesday, April 25 @ 11:53:20 PDT
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It's stuff like this that brings out the worst in people. I posted a couple of times on this article before I got one of those insulting posts from a Calvinist. Here's what is so freaky about it.

MichaelB gave me a link to an MP3 by Gordon Clark. When I said I didn't care, he questioned my salvation. Now, think about this logic.

Is Gordon Clark god? Is MichaelB? But in Michael's opinion, to question Clark is to forfeit one's salvation. To question Michael is to question god himself. Oh, I know, Mike's got scripture - and he uses it so effectively. He slashes, slanders, and circumcises. But nowhere does he edify, or exhort, or even admonish, because none of it's done in love. It's all "agree with me or burn."

That's the problem. Plain and simple. We can't have discussions around here. We get slandered by the Calvinists. There can be no disagreement allowed in the Calvinist mind. It's all about proof-texting. But I'm not going to throw proof texts around. It proves nothing. I've shown that before, but when that's all you have.

And the kicker of it all is that Michael wants to accuse me of being a believer in free will, when I clearly said what a deficient system that is - just like Calvinism. It's God that matters, not calvinism or arminianism or universalism or stupidism. God does it all - I believe that, He is sovereign. But to codify that into a system developed by men and call it Christianity to the exclusion of everyone else; well we call that idolatry.

ed


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  • Re: Born Bad by MichaelB on Wednesday, April 25 @ 12:24:48 PDT
  • Re: Born Bad by Life14all on Wednesday, April 25 @ 12:42:10 PDT
"Paul, Augustine and Calvin" teach heresy - Jewish Website (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Wednesday, April 25 @ 12:55:12 PDT
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Paige and / or Ed wrote:
"We are created good, with the capacity to choose wrongly. But that's part of our humanity. It is not a thing to be feared, it is a joy to be embraced. We choose, God teaches, we learn. And if we don't learn, the cycle continues."

What scripture is this (above)? Does this one count below?

The totality of our rebellion is seen in Romans 3:9-10 and 18. "I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: None is righteous, no not one; no one seeks for God....There is no fear of God before their eyes."

In Romans 14:23 Paul says, "Whatever is not from faith is sin." Therefore, if all men are in total rebellion, everything they do is the product of rebellion and cannot be an honor to God, but only part of their sinful rebellion. If a king teaches his subjects how to fight well and then those subjects rebel against their king and use the very skill he taught them to resist him, then even those skills become evil.

Romans 5
19, "For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners"

Genesis 6
5 The LORD saw how great man's wickedness on the earth had become, and that every inclination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil all the time.

Heck even Jewish unbelievers say Paul the apostle was a heretic - why - they say because he taught ORIGINAL SIN.

Even they see it. Quotes from a Jewish website.

"This staggering problem did not escape the keen attention of Paul. Bear in mind, the author of Romans and Galatians constructed his most consequential doctrines on the premise that man is utterly depraved and incapable of saving himself through his own obedience to God. In chapter after chapter he directs his largely gentile audiences toward the cross and away from Sinai as he repeatedly insists that man is lost without Jesus"

"For Christian architects like Paul, Augustine, and Calvin, this declaration of man's capacity to restrain and govern his lust for sin is nothing short of heresy"


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Logic And God (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Thursday, April 26 @ 10:02:24 PDT
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http://www.gospelpedlar.com/articles/God/logic.html


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Pelagius, Calvin & Arminius: So where are all the Arminius Articles? (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Saturday, April 28 @ 17:00:26 PDT
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- Pelagius -
Probably A.D. 354 - after 418. Pelagius taught that even before the advent of Christ there were men who were without sin. Adam's sin harmed only himself, not the human race. In other words, you do NOT need Christ, to be saved, necessarily. A British monk and contemporary of Augustine, reacted against Augustine's views on grace and determinism. He observed that others often used these views as an excuse for loose living, so he preached that man should take more responsibility for his own actions. He denied original sin and affirmed unhindered human free will. He held that, in spite of the fall, man retained his innate goodness and could perform righteous acts if only he would choose to do them.


— Calvin —
All the parts of the soul were possessed by sin, ever since Adam revolted …. Paul … says that corruption does not dwell in one part only, but that no part is free from its deadly taint.… The whole man, from the crown of the head to the sole of the foot, is so deluged, as it were, that no part remains exempt from sin, and, therefore, everything which proceeds from him is imputed as sin. (Book 2, Chap 1, Sec 9) We are intoxicated with a false opinion of our own discernment, and can scarcely be persuaded that in divine things it is altogether stupid and blind.… When the Spirit describes men under the term darkness, he declares them void of all power of spiritual intelligence.… The flesh has no capacity for such sublime wisdom as to apprehend God, and the things of God, unless illuminated by his Spirit. (Book 2, Chap 2, Sec 19, italics in original)


— Arminius —
In his lapsed and sinful state, man is not capable, of and by himself, either to think, to will, or to do that which is really good; but it is necessary for him to be regenerated and renewed in his intellect, affections or will, and in all his powers, by God in Christ through the Holy Spirit, that he may be qualified rightly to understand, esteem, consider, will, and perform whatever is truly good. (Vol 1, p 252, italics in original) The free will of man towards the true good is not only wounded, maimed, infirm, bent, and weakened; but it is also imprisoned, destroyed, and lost. And its powers are not only debilitated and useless unless they be assisted by grace, but it has no powers whatever except such as are excited by Divine grace.… The mind of man, in this state, is dark, destitute of the saving knowledge of God, and, according to the Apostle, incapable of those things which belong to the Spirit of God.… To the darkness of the mind succeeds the perverseness of the affections and of the heart, according to which it hates and has an aversion to that which is truly good and pleasing to God; but it loves and pursues what is evil.… Exactly correspondent to this darkness of the mind, and perverseness of the heart, is the utter weakness of all the powers to perform that which is truly good, and to omit the perpetration of that which is evil …. He is altogether dead in sin. (Vol 1, p 526-528, italics in original)


- Calvin and Arminius -
Both Calvin and Arminius hold firmly to the total depravity of man, which makes man utterly incapable of doing any spiritual good without God's intervention.


- Arminius -
Because of Arminius' view of the effect of the fall on mankind, he should never be confused with Pelagius. In fact, Arminius worked hard to “keep at the greatest possible distance from Pelagianism” (Vol 1, p 300).


So those of you holding the Pelagius doctrine here on Planet Preterist, do you believe that there is more than one way to the Father, yes or no? Pelagius taught that there was. It is a logical conclusion from his theology on original sin. Also, stop blaming Calvin. I want to see you address Arminius also for once on this subject.


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