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“Russia is unquestionably the nation identitfied in the prophecies of Ezekiel 38 and 39” (God will destroy Russia?, p. 259
-- Tim LaHaye
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Re: An Exegetical Basis for a Preterist-Idealist Understanding of the Book of Revelat (Score: 1)
 by Sam on Tuesday, March 20 @ 12:34:28 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Noe's view comes closer to our own and is certainly a step away from Dennis' view. The main difference between Noe and myself, and this will be covered in April at Truth Voice, is that the biblical FP framework has built within it the Age to Come (our age) in which the prophets speak a great deal about. One does not need to continually reapply locusts, antichrists, satan, demons, beasts for all eternity. A truly biblical FP framework incorporates an Age to Come life and speaks a great deal about it. I think that Noe and Dennis both want "relevancy" today and have been reading too much hyper-full preterist material (universalism and the hyper cessationists or everything ceases-ism) in opposition. The desire for relevancy today is fine, but a fulfilled prophecy is a fulfilled prophecy, and how that ceases to have relevancy even though it has not personal experiential application to you is beyond me. Take the prophecy concerning Judas. Is that being reapplied and fulfilled over and over again? And, is the fact that those prophecies about Judas are fulfilled once and for all time, does that mean that those passages of Scripture cease to have any meaning? This would be an anti-historical (anti-history) view. King David, a historical person, ceases to have any meaning in term of story and narrative simply because we cannot apply everything of his life to our own in every detail. Why not sit back, read the story of David and marvel at the grace of God in David's life? If God has grace like that, then what does that say about the grace of God in Christ to you? Whatever happened to reading the story and enjoying it for what it is? Why this lust to apply everything in the Scriptures to my own experience today, and if I can't, then it is "meaningless"?
This is not to take away from Noes otherwise excellent article (I am a member of ETS and get the journal, and was quite proud to see his article appear there. John is to be congratulated on this and his work at ETS to create more exposure for our view).
Sam |
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- by mazuur on Tuesday, March 20 @ 13:41:40 PDT
- by Fredrico on Tuesday, March 20 @ 14:10:38 PDT
- by Starlight on Tuesday, March 20 @ 15:02:02 PDT
- by plymouthrock on Tuesday, March 20 @ 16:57:19 PDT
- by MichaelB on Sunday, March 25 @ 10:18:06 PDT
Re: An Exegetical Basis for a Preterist-Idealist Understanding of the Book of Revelat (Score: 1)
by Islamaphobe on Tuesday, March 20 @ 18:26:17 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | In 3.4, John N. states that Revelation's prophetic significance "is not limited to a one-time, historic, and static eschatological fulfillment for its own day" but "goes beyond AD 70--but with its AD 70 fulfillment serving in a typological manner." I find this to be very interesting. What I would like to know is how he applies this statement specifically to the case of Revelation 20:3 and 7. I would also very much like to know how John N. now understands the thousand years.
John S. Evans
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Re: An Exegetical Basis for a Preterist-Idealist Understanding of the Book of Revelat (Score: 1)
by ThomasS on Wednesday, March 21 @ 00:32:45 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Noē's article is very interesting. He does not try to hide problems with an identification of "Babylon the great" with Jerusalem -- I like that. The readers are able to figure out what the problems are in order to decide for themselves.
I am, however, not sure that I am able to take his syllogistic reasoning seriously. I also wonder if he would use the same logic principle in order to identify the "little horn" in the Book of Daniel.
Th.S. |
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- by Virgil on Wednesday, March 21 @ 06:05:36 PDT
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Re: An Exegetical Basis for a Preterist-Idealist Understanding of the Book of Revelat (Score: 1)
by Reformer on Wednesday, March 21 @ 17:33:54 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Dear Gentlemen,
I must say, that to date, I have been most disappointed with the quality of response on this website to this article, that has been published in one of, if not the most, prominent theological journal.
John Noe |
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- by ThomasS on Thursday, March 22 @ 04:09:55 PDT
- by Starlight on Thursday, March 22 @ 07:11:58 PDT
- by mazuur on Thursday, March 22 @ 08:27:08 PDT
- by PreteristAD70 on Thursday, March 22 @ 09:55:03 PDT
- by Sam on Thursday, March 22 @ 16:12:48 PDT
- by Reformer on Thursday, March 22 @ 16:33:38 PDT
Re: An Exegetical Basis for a Preterist-Idealist Understanding of the Book of Revelat (Score: 1)
 by davo on Thursday, March 22 @ 10:04:29 PDT
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John Noē: In contrast, I submit the better understanding is one specific fulfillment, but many general applications. I'm not so sure too many preterists would actually disagree with this – you quote Max King on the fulfillment of the prophetic as saying: "It is full, complete and everlasting. – one could easily read King's "everlasting" in terms of "ongoing", and thus conclude the repetitive nature of the principles, commendations, and warnings contained therein.
But seeking to make relevant "application" post fulfillment is vastly different from saying that such application is in fact a proper "…interpretation of the entire book". Interpretation and application are not one and the same thing – correct interpretation is vastly helped by understanding and acknowledging its historical relevance, only then is it possible to make certain application, which in its very nature is incredibly "subjective", so of itself likewise open to "interpretation" – thus it can become an endless loop losing all touch beyond its intended end – of which is "historical", IF such is prophetic, i.e., if the said prophecy failed to materialise then such indicated the falseness of that claimed.
davo
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- by DougShuffield on Thursday, March 22 @ 10:29:51 PDT
- by davo on Thursday, March 22 @ 10:42:04 PDT
Re: An Exegetical Basis for a Preterist-Idealist Understanding of the Book of Revelat (Score: 1)
by DougShuffield on Thursday, March 22 @ 10:12:34 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Mr. Noē,
You state in your article:
Secondly, and in graphic fashion, John was also told to “eat” the little scroll and that he “must prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages and kings” (Rev 10:9-11). Clearly, as Osborne has pointed out,[219] these “peoples, nations, languages, and kings” are a different and broader group of recipients of this prophecy than John’s original group, the area of the seven churches (Rev 1:4, 11).
My question:
Why is the assumption made that John being told that he must "prophesy again about many peoples, nations, languages, and kings" mean that they become "recipients" of the prophesy? Would it not simply mean that the content of the remaining portion of prophesy is about "many peoples, nations, languages, and kings"?
- Doug |
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