You are hereBREAKING: Mammoth Young-earth Organization Takes on Old-earth Writer and Planetpreterist Columnist on His Home Turf

BREAKING: Mammoth Young-earth Organization Takes on Old-earth Writer and Planetpreterist Columnist on His Home Turf

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By Virgil - Posted on 15 March 2007

Planetpreterist has just learned that the young-earth creationist organization known as Answers in Genesis just placed a huge billboard outside of Whitehall, Montana, home of Tim Martin. Tim Martin was the original author of the 2005 edition of Beyond Creation Science: How Preterism Refutes a Global Flood and Impacts the Genesis Debate. Tim is also a columnist here at Planetpreterist.com. Let’s go live to Whitehall, Montana to get the latest on this breaking story.

Virgil Vaduva: Hi, Tim. What’s going on out there?

Tim Martin: Well, Virgil, I’m not really sure. But it does seem strange. I was driving home from work yesterday when I saw it. I brought my camera today. I think you can see from the picture that the sign is a real attention-grabber. I was so surprised to be looking down the barrel of a gun, that I almost missed the ad for answersingenesis.org. But sure enough, there it was.

VV: So AiG bought advertising on the sign? Where is this sign?

TM: Oh, it’s about 3 miles outside of Whitehall. It’s a new sign. Probably the biggest sign in the county now, right on Interstate 90 which runs through Whitehall – where I live.

VV: Why would AiG buy advertising in Montana?

TM: I can only assume to get their message out. What’s weird is that I-90 isn’t all that busy except for the tourist part of the year. Lots of people go this way to Glacier National Park during the summer, but during the winter it dwindles to normal traffic and locals.

VV: So they bought the sign for the travel season?

TM: I don’t know how long they bought it for. I don’t even know who, exactly, bought it, to tell you the truth. What seems strange to me is that they bought the sign 3 miles from Whitehall where I live. I’ve never seen AiG advertise in Montana before. As you know, my writing work has been dedicated to refuting a global flood in Genesis which is a big part of young-earth creationist belief. I think Preterism shows how the biblical flood was local, and that pretty much puts an end to the stuff AiG teaches about flood geology, etc. Maybe it was entirely coincidental. Maybe they just picked an open billboard and it just happened to be the biggest billboard in my county, and just happened to be 3 miles out of Whitehall, where I live. Maybe it is just a most amazing coincidence.



AiG Billboard several miles outside of Whitehall, Montana

VV: Is there any way they would know about your work with your book or articles on PlanetPreterist?

TM: Oh yes, they know. I heard through the grapevine that Ken Ham, their president, read it and was very unhappy with it. He asked one of his old friends (a well-known preterist) if all preterists believe my arguments for a local flood. Ham’s friend is a long-time advocate of YEC, so he wasn’t too thrilled with my stuff. either. I’m quite confident they do know about me and my work. The old book is up on our website, www.truthinliving.org, which tells everyone we live in Whitehall. The timing is amazing, too, because I have a new edition of the book coming out soon with my new co-author, Jeff Vaughn.

VV: Interesting. You haven’t seen any other AiG advertising in Montana?

TM: No, I haven’t, and I travel all over SW Montana for work. I did see this particular ad in World Magazine. AiG must have an advertising campaign going. It was in there with two others – one was about racism and I can’t remember what the other was about. This one was certainly the best.

VV: The gun grabs your attention doesn’t it?

TM: Yeah, that’s why I think it is the best. I love guns, and guns are pretty popular out here. But we don’t have a lot of violence in our sleepy little town of Whitehall. There was a shooting a few years back. It was drug related. Unfortunately, no one got seriously injured. I did think the other advertisement AiG put into World Magazine was odd. It was about racism.

VV: Sort of, without God, then there’s no reason racism is wrong?

TM: That was the gist of it. But what is so strange is that, at one time, the global flood doctrine was used to argue racism from the Bible.

VV: You’re kidding, right?

TM: No. Presbyterians in the South around the time of the Civil War argued that God’s curse of perpetual slavery upon Ham was fulfilled in the perpetual enslavement of black people. They taught that since the flood was global, all races descended from Noah’s three sons – a white son, a yellow son, and a black son. You can guess which one was Ham. So, I found the racism ad by AiG strange, given the history of the global flood doctrine. (And I’m not sure that ad would have the same punch here, anyway. This is Montana).

VV: Yeah, but that doesn’t mean global flood advocates are racists.

TM: That’s true. They aren’t. Though it might surprise you to hear that I do know of some who live here in Whitehall still believe that old argument. They are big YEC fans, too. But my point is that if the flood was a covenant judgment, like the Great Tribulation in the New Testament, and therefore a local event, no one could have argued for racism from that passage in the Bible as they did 150 years ago.

VV: Certainly, Christianity is the answer to racism. It never ceases to amaze me what has gone on in Church history.

TM: Virgil, if I might say so, I think the sign AiG posted is a great sign.

VV: You agree with the sign?

TM: I do. It is very true that without God, the world would degenerate into chaos, violence and death and destruction. So I agree with the sign…

VV: Stop the presses! Tim agrees with AiG!

TM: I’m not done yet. The problem isn’t with the statement the sign makes. The problem is that it sends people to AiG’s website which is filled with a bunch of bizarre science theories, most of which were disproved decades ago. They use these bogus scientific theories as proof that the Bible teaches a young earth and a global flood.

VV: Well, what if they are right?

TM: What if they are wrong? If they are wrong, as virtually every professional geologist and scientist will tell you, then their message is actually making atheists. And causing the very problem their sign is meant to deal with!

VV: Making atheists?

TM: That’s right. By teaching the Bible says, without question, that our earth is around 6000 years old and Noah’s flood was a global event, those who know this isn’t the case can dismiss the Bible as false. I maintain that Young-earth creationism has been instrumental in making atheists since its inception. Just like futurist views of prophecy lead to false predictions of the rapture and end of the world tear down the credibility of the God’s Word on the other end of the Bible. Most people don’t realize that the same people who invented modern futurism also invented modern young-earth creationist theory. They invented both so that their view of the Bible would be compatible. Noah’s global flood would match with their coming global Great Tribulation, etc. We’re suffering from the same people’s silly doctrines in both Genesis and Revelation.

There’s a lot of history there.

VV: I’m sure there is. Do you plan to talk about that history at the Truthvoice Conference this year?

TM: Yes. Jeff Vaughn and I will present a lot of the material in the new book. We’ll show why it is inconsistent to hold to young-earth views of creation (like AiG teaches) and preterist eschatology. Should be fun.

VV: I’m looking forward to it, and to meeting you. Have fun driving past AiG’s sign on your way to work.

TM: Hehe. I’ll get a chuckle every time. Truth is, with the internet these days, the barrel is really pointed the other way – toward the “big guys.” It’s the futurists and young-earth creationists who are the dinosaurs of our age. Here today, gone tomorrow. You watch. And I’m looking forward to meeting you for the first time in person as well. The Great “Virgil Vaduva.”

VV: I guess that’s the word on AiG’s giant billboard sign just outside of Whitehall, Montana, home of Tim Martin, Planetpreterist Columnist and Old-earth author. Seems like an odd story from what I’m hearing. Here’s what we know. A huge AiG billboard has been erected in quiet SW Montana. The rest is still a mystery

If you would like to hear more information, join us during the Truthvoice Conference, April 13-14 in Dayton, Ohio.

Answers in Genesis can be contacted at 1-800-350-3232. or http://www.answersingenesis.org

EWMI's picture

If this is not an April Fools or Ides of March prank my very strong suggestion is that we respond like gentlemen. We need to do whatever we can to to avoid name calling and ad hominems and seek open and warm dialogue.

Internal tensions between Christians need to be avoided, not fostered.

al

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Al,

This is real.

I'm dead serious.

There is absolutely no prank here. You can call the fellow elders at Covenant Community Church to check up if you want.

Everything in this is absolutely true.

Blessings,

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving

Virgil's picture

Al, in July 2005, Whitehall Montana had a population of 1,156 people. A billboard like this on a major interstate costs a lot of money. I have a hard time believing this is an accident.

Also, by reporting this I don't believe we are fostering tensions - I do believe that folks need to know about how AiG appears to be handling challenges. If it's an accident, I will be the first to say so.

EWMI's picture

Thanks Virgil,

I am replying in general to encourage us to measure our responses both within and without the Preterist community. Lately comments and replies to critics seem to be more malicious than they need to be.

mazuur's picture

Are there no trees in Montana? Maybe the earth isn't old enough for trees to grow there yet. lol

-Rich

-Rich

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Rich,

Trees are scarce in Big Sky Country. They are mainly confined to the mountains (Lodgepole, Spruce, Aspen, and Douglas Fir) or confined to the valley bottoms along rivers/creeks (Cottonwood, etc).

BTW, the shortage of trees allows you to see for miles and miles. It's not like down South where you get "boxed in" with all the trees. It really is "Big Sky Country." You have to see it in person to really appreciate it.

Blessings,

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

KingNeb's picture

This post actually serves well to point out why I have a hard time buying Tim and JL’s arguments. And before someone jumps my case with 40 questions from Genesis – which, by the way, questions do not prove anything – this isn’t about me and what I believe. This is about an argument being made that isn’t solid. Even IF I held to Tim and JL’s views, I would never use that first book to help prove it to people. It doesn’t prove anything….just like the picture here. There is nothing in this picture that would prove to me that AIG was “taking on” Tim Martin…nothing. One would expect something more direct about the flood/creation if they were. Even Tim himself admits, “Well, Virgil, I’m not really sure. But it does seem strange.”

That’s right…Tim doesn’t “know”. Virgil doesn’t “know”. It needs to be left at that, but I have a feeling some people won’t. Mark my word, before long someone will be turning all of this into “fact”.

Fact is, geologist and scientist don’t “know” how old the earth is. If Ellis knew, beyond any shadow of a doubt, he would have never said that a 6,000 year old earth could not be disproven “experimentally or observationally”. (See the quote Sam keeps posting)

Lastly, young earth teaching doesn’t produce atheists. I might expect hearing that from arminians and the like, but not from a “calvinist”. That argument sounds like more “gun pointing” to me than actually anything of substance. Do we actually think that if science could prove a young earth, that atheists would all of a sudden be flocking to the Bible?

Luke 16:29-31 But Abraham said, 'They have Moses and the Prophets; let them hear them.' 30 And he said, 'No, father Abraham, but if someone goes to them from the dead, they will repent.' 31 He said to him, 'If they do not hear Moses and the Prophets, neither will they be convinced if someone should rise from the dead.'"

thereignofchrist.com

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Jason,

Thanks for the demonstration.

We're working hard to get to the bottom of this and find out the facts of the case. I think we mentioned that in the interview.

Consider this. There is also a gold mine about 3 miles on the other side of town from this billboard. It is called the "Golden Sunlight Mine." It has been in operation for decades and is about tapped out and getting ready to close in the next year or two.

Geologists picked that location because of their geological research in the area. They found an intrusion with high gold content that broke through from below to arrive close to the surface. (Montana Colleges specialize in geology for petroleum and mining).

These are all top geologists. Do you know how many believe in a global flood geology? Zero. They can show you how each layer of strata is built on the other. They are masters. They can show you how it takes vast amounts of time for them to develop, for the surface of each is weathered and aged before the new formations develop. They can also show you that, relatively speaking, this intrusion they found is fairly young. Just hundreds of millions of years old, rather than billions. It is likely related to the active geological processes in my region (I'm not far from Yellowstone National Park).

Golden Sunlight has pulled more than 2,400,000 ounces of gold out of the ground at this mine in Whitehall. Yes, that's 2 million, 400 thousand ounces.

You can say that no one really knows anything by observation. You can say that scientists really know nothing, when it gets down to it. That's fine. You are free to stick your head in the sand and blather at earthworms. Go right ahead. But I know for a fact that more than 2 million ounces of gold came out of the hill outside of Whitehall.

By your own standard of truth you can't know you are Jason Bradfield. Where does the Bible tell you that?

Blessings,

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

KingNeb's picture

“We're working hard to get to the bottom of this and find out the facts of the case. I think we mentioned that in the interview.”

Yes, you did. But, the “facts of the case” are still that you don’t know why the sign is there – bottom line. So why speculate and create all this hoopla of a post implying that AIG is targeting you? That’s not knowledge. You can’t infer any of that from simply seeing that billboard on the side of the road. Tim, tell you what, let me know when you get the first email from someone who writes you and says, “Hello Tim. You don’t know me and I don’t know you, but I happen to be driving down I-90 into Whitehall and I saw this AIG billboard and thought to myself, ‘Wow, maybe I need to check out this book written by Tim Martin on the flood.’ So, that’s what led me to track you down and hence, my email to you and a request to pre-order your new book.”

It’s not going to happen, Tim. There is nothing on that sign that says anything about preterism, floods, or Tim Martin – nothing.

“You can say that no one really knows anything by observation. You can say that scientists really know nothing, when it gets down to it. That's fine. You are free to stick your head in the sand and blather at earthworms. Go right ahead. But I know for a fact that more than 2 million ounces of gold came out of the hill outside of Whitehall.”

1. I never said that scientists “really know nothing” – straw man.

2. Pulling gold out of a hill and postulating the big bang theory are two different animals – they hardly compare. If a group said they pulled that out of the hill and showed me, I wouldn’t have a problem with it. Again, your analogies (this and the computer-use bit) continue to demonstrate that you still don’t understand what is being argued for/against.

thereignofchrist.com

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Jason,

Here is a statement:

"There is a huge billboard advertising AiG just outside of Whitehall, MT."

Is this true?

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.

Kyle Peterson's picture

No way man....you can't trust your senses. Even though God created and perfected our senses to aide us in reigning over the earth - and deemed His human creation "good" ; Adam went off and sinned causing all of our senses to becmoe dull, desensitized, falliable and untrustworthy. We've become fallen humans with an inherent predisposition to sin - how can we possibly trust our Creator-given senses anymore?

KingNeb's picture

If i assume you're telling the truth and that photo is not a fraud and is what you say it is, then yes. Other than that, i couldn't possibly know that hundreds of miles removed here in Florida.

thereignofchrist.com

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Jason,

Ignore Kyle. He's just messing around.

How would we know if that statement is the truth?

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

KingNeb's picture

What statement?

thereignofchrist.com

Ed's picture

Okay, now I understand your earlier stupid statement. You truly can't follow a simple narrative written by an intelligent person, can you?

ed

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

KingNeb's picture

Ed,

Tim wrote: "Jason,

Ignore Kyle. He's just messing around.

How would we know if that statement is the truth?"

My question was for clarification because one could read this as though "that statement" is referring to the one he just made about Kyle.

Is there something wrong with asking a question for clarification?

thereignofchrist.com

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Jason,

I said to ignore Kyle. But you don't have to if you want (Hi, Kyle *waving*).

This statement:

"There is a huge billboard advertising AiG just outside of Whitehall, MT."

How would we go about finding out if this is the truth?

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

KingNeb's picture

well, i guess i could hop in the car, drive to where this supposedly is, and look and see if it is there...

so what's your point? That doesn't prove and/or explain how sensations convey any information.

Tim, does your digital camera "understand" what it took a picture of? Does it "know" that is a rectangular billboard? Does it "know" what a gun is and what a "Whitehall" is?

thereignofchrist.com

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Thanks,

We could know the truth by driving out to see it. Truth can be gained through observation.

Blessings,

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

P.S. What does my camera know? What has that got to do with the price of tea in China? This is just too weird.

KingNeb's picture

"What does my camera know?"

EXACTLY Tim. See there. I knew you'd respond that way to the question because the question hits right at home with what the issue is and you being perplexed over the question demonstrates to me again that you have no idea what Clark was arguing for...you simply don't understand the issue. I don't know how many times i have to point this out.

There is no information being conveyed through senses, none. And giving me some example of driving to a sign and looking at it simply begs the question. You beg the question over and over and over with examples of sense perception (whatever that is) but have come no where close to proving exactly how it works or what it is.

Best thing you can do right now Tim is to read some stuff and deal with it directly, instead of continually begging the question with examples.

http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=84

thereignofchrist.com

Ed's picture

So Jason, are we to understand that Clark is using "God" as a metaphor for the big sign in Whitehall MT, and the "Man" they are speaking of is actually Tim's camera?

I'm not quite following what YOU are trying to say here. We were not talking about how man knows God; we are talking about how man understands or perceives reality.

The universe is NOT God and therefore doesn't require special revelation to perceive it. The geological record is NOT God and therefore doesn't require special revelation to perceive it.

And the sign outside of Whitehall is NOT God. We use our senses to point our cameras at signs and we use our senses to snap the picture with the camera. The camera has no inert intelligence, nor is it germane to the discussion.

But alas, you'll just start demanding that I show you where you "ever made the comment that the sign was God. It's not there. You failed. JL failed. Tim failed." At least you are admitting that you read Clark - that's a start.

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Jason,

I am not a camera.

You have started your premise on Descartes' and David Hume's (and many other unbelievers') premise. That man is merely a machine.

I'll say it again. You have started your premise and philosophy on pagan views of man.

Cut it out.

Start your philosophy in the Christian Worldview. God created the universe. He created man. He created the world to work in a predictable and reliable way so that man can understand His universe.

Observation.

God made the world to work that way. Don't start your philosophy on common ground with unbelieving philosophers. Start your philosophy with the Christian view of God and the world he created.

Blessings,

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

KingNeb's picture

"That man is merely a machine."

Tim,

I didn't say that. Where do i say that or even hint to saying that? In fact, the materialistic view is exactly what I am arguing against. Your analysis of my view is entirely false. Hume didn't argue for revelation from God. Hume didn't argue that knowledge is only possible thru God. Hume didn't argue that Christ is THE teacher.

Tim, are you going to read that link i sent you and deal with what Clark actually says or are we going to play the "you're linked to so and so" game?...which you are obviously not good at because the difference between Hume and Clark is night and day - at least those who have read Clark understand that.

thereignofchrist.com

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Jason,

I'm baffled.

You used the camera to make an example of the "problem" of perception. Do you remember this?

You are philosophizing on their terms, using their categories, in their shadow. You have started with their assumptions, that man is merely a machine.

Cut it out,

Tim Martin,
www.truthinliving.org

KingNeb's picture

Well Tim, you clearly misunderstood my reason for asking you the question.

Please explain to me how you infer from a question that i believe that man is merely a machine. Can you back this up or will you just keep repeating your accusation enough hopes, hoping it will come true?

thereignofchrist.com

KingNeb's picture

Please give an example from Hume or any other non-Christian philosopher who argues that God reveals truth immediately to our minds, without the means of sense experience.

I await your quote. Until then, your accusation is meaningless.

thereignofchrist.com

Ed's picture

Perhaps Jason thinks that cameras possess sensory impulses. Should we let him in on the truth?

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

KingNeb's picture

Ed,

Tell me what a sensory impulse is?

thereignofchrist.com

Kyle Peterson's picture

Hello! Just passing by.

UncleJesse's picture

Hey Tim,
A friend of mine works in the Sunlight mine in Whitehall. Also, talked to Grace Bible and they will be forwarding my question about the sign to a guy named Mark Amunurd. He's the AIG organizer in the area of Bozeman.
Jesse
www.jesseahmann.com

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Jesse,

Thanks.

We've got some leads we're working on, too.

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

mazuur's picture

Tim,

there's a phone number listed beneath the sign. What is it for?

-Rich

-Rich

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Rich,

The phone number is for the sign company. And that is where this whole story very well might take a wild twist.

We'll let you know when we get to the bottom of it. We're closing in.

Later dude,
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

Starlight's picture

Jason,

Maybe it’s because you haven’t been around many atheist and agnostics who declare the Bible garbage and site Genesis as proof. There are many factors that produce atheist/agnostics. The whole futurist end of the world and left behind mentality is another contributor. Some just don’t like the God of the Old Testament and his capricious killing of people. So you see they have all kinds of issues that contribute to their reasoning. It helps when you are dealing with one who is truly seeking to be able to competently explain those Biblical issues to them. Once you show them that their misunderstandings of the Bible are not the problems that they thought then you can get down to the nitty gritty with them and talk about Jesus and what that means to him/her personally. It’s just like any other sales job you have to answer their objections and deal with them first before you can close the deal. It’s really that simple. And I guarantee you that Genesis will invariably come up at some point in the discussion with many seekers that are science oriented.

I will tell you though that if you start spouting off Global flood and Grand Canyon formation from that flood you just as well have put a huge sign on your forehead declaring yourself an idiot to them. They may not tell you so but you just closed the door to them as they will act like they are listening to you but now all they are really thinking is “idiot” and your testimony can’t get past first base.

The bottom line is that an individual will have to accept the divine nature of God at some point and will have to reconcile miracles in order to accept Christ. But it does no good to throw up false miracles as a stumbling block when they are not called for. I believed in a local flood years before I ever heard of Tim Martin so don’t think Tim is telling us Old Earthers anything new in that regard. What Tim brings to the plate is the same thing that was eventually brought to Revelation which is the proper hermeneutic in understanding scripture within context. Tim’s work is not about science and if it was I would discard it. It is about understanding Genesis in its proper setting so that truth may be revealed.

Jason you may not be aware of it but some of us on this site have years of Old earth belief behind us before we ever heard of Preterism. Old earth beliefs in Christianity are a lot more prevalent than you may be aware. I just posted an article a couple of days ago highlighting how 4000 adherents met here in Houston which was sponsored by the 2nd Baptist Church which might be the largest Baptist church in America. Old earth is an accepted position in contemporary Christian America otherwise do you think Second Baptist of Houston would have put their seal of approval on hosting this conference. I dare you to approach them and ask them to support our next Preterist conference and post it on their web site. Second Baptist still has the web listing up, go check it out.
http://www.second.org/calendar/EventDetails.aspx?eventId=1583

Blessings

Norm

KingNeb's picture

Maybe it’s because you haven’t been around many atheist and agnostics who declare the Bible garbage and site Genesis as proof.

I have been around plenty of atheists. In fact, last year I went to Ybor City (downtown tampa) and took on four atheist street preachers there on the sidewalk at 10pm with about 20 bystanders watching the show – one was a “certified logician” who taught logic at a local college. His buddy had a sign up that said that Jesus was a false prophet because he did not return when he said he would. I gave him the typical preterist speal and guess what? That infuriated him to the point where he turned blood red and was ready to punch me. Know what he said? “Ohhh, you Christians will come up with any dang argument to make the Bible credible.” Norm, it didn’t matter to him. Jesus could have floated down to him visibly and told him how old the earth is personally and he would still suppress the Truth. That’s what atheists do. Remember Israel?

I will tell you though that if you start spouting off Global flood and Grand Canyon formation from that flood you just as well have put a huge sign on your forehead declaring yourself an idiot to them. They may not tell you so but you just closed the door to them as they will act like they are listening to you but now all they are really thinking is “idiot” and your testimony can’t get past first base.

1. I have never said that the Grand Canyon formed from the flood – straw man.
2. Norm, most atheists that I have met put an idiot sign on my forehead the very second I mentioned the name of “Jesus” – you know, that guy that claimed to be God, floated up into heaven to a throne and is now “invisible” and rules the earth.

It is about understanding Genesis in its proper setting so that truth may be revealed.

I don’t doubt Tim’s motives, etc. And I have never called Tim a “pathetic loser” or a “Gnostic”. I just don’t buy the argument. It’s not a strong argument. Maybe it will be one day, but as the book stands now, it fails. And saying that those who oppose your views are atheist-producers doesn’t help your case. Sorry.

thereignofchrist.com

Starlight's picture

Jason,

That’s why I stated that they are eventually going to have to come to reconcile the divine nature of God and accept miracles. I certainly understand your good point that it will take an honest open heart seeking God, as a closed callous one will react just as you stated. What my point was is that we need not have extra created miracles such as a global flood to throw up when scripture in my estimation does not call for it. I have known agnostics that eventually got over their objections and come to Christ and it is just as you indicate it was done so in many cases because of an open heart. Some have put aside the flood issue and have concentrated upon the nature of Christ and recognize God’s truth through Christ.

Jason, I’m sorry to falsely implicate you concerning the Grand Canyon, sometimes I’m guilty of assuming too much. I must say it is getting hard to find those who do not tie in the Grand Canyon with the Global Flood though. You are rare in that regard.

Jason we probably need limit our discussion more to agnostics than atheist as they are as you indicate a different breed although some will still come around.

Also just another point for your consideration concerning Old Earth; the Catholic Pope is very comfortable it seems with Old earth theology and appears to be strengthening that movement for a Catholic positioning. We may have the ironic situation eventually where after 500 years instead of Catholics at war with science it may be some protestant movements at war with science. Quite ironic considering Protestants fostered science to a large degree.

Norm

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Norm,

You make a very good point.

I agree that my work is absolutely nothing new on the old-earth side of things. They have believed in a local flood for generations. I just show why that is perfectly consistent with preterism: for lots of reasons.

There is preterism's hermeneutic. OEC views of biological death before the fall matches preterist view of biological death after redemption. And then there is time perspective. What's millions of past if you expect millions of years of future to come? I call it preparation. If the earth has been around for millions of years, then it means it isn't going to break any time soon. God made the world to last. A long past implies a long future and vice versa. Preterism and OEC should be best buddies.

Right now, most preterists have no clue what a local flood in Genesis means for eschatology. Preterists have not utilized this fact, yet, as an argument for preterism to Old-earth creationists. Watch out when preterists figure out that a local flood implies preterism on the other side of the Bible!

Below is a link to where I made the argument for preterism from a local flood in Genesis. (Jeff was in on it from the beginning.) We laid it all out to a very well-known OEC author, Dr. Bob C. Newmann. Dr. Newmann is/was professor of NT at Biblical Theological Seminary in Pennsylvania. He is a published author in the OEC field, and his work goes back decades. He is a dispensationalist. Watch how defenseless he is to our arguments for preterism: all as a result of his local flood views.

The discussion was a result of John Holzmann's book review of the old edition of BCS. John is president of Sonlight Curriculum for Homeschoolers. Scroll down in the discussion forum to near the bottom. That is where Dr. Newmann and I square off. If this is the best they can do...

Old-earth creationists are sitting ducks for preterism. Their local flood begs for a preterist view of the Olivet Discourse. Here is why:

http://archive.sonlight-forums.com/showthread.php?t=156634

Blessings,

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

Starlight's picture

Tim,

It’s almost a year since I wrote you a letter of thanks for introducing me to Preterism and I thought it might be appropriate for the readers to see what happens when your work meets with Old Earth adherents. I spent endless hours studying Preterism even after writing to you and did not feel comfortable or inclined until nearly August to start interfacing with PP post. Kurt’s article finally pulled me into the fray and alas I’m now hooked. If you notice in my email to you I outlined that I had been dissatisfied with other Old Earth approaches as I did not find them biblically sound. I immediately recognized the difference in your approach and grasped the significance of it immediately. I actually had to set aside my Genesis study for several months as I intensely studied the preterist positions to see whether they were true or not. I had to wade through some interesting positions within Preterism before I came to settle in on what I considered rock solid positions. Many readers that are not inclined to the Old Earth approach may not recognize the impact of yours and JL’s new book will have, especially among the Old Earth crowd such as myself. If preterist watch they will see Preterism grow from this movement once your book hits and starts working its way through them. The YEC will be a tougher sale as they are tied up with dispensationalist to a large extent and fight us tooth and nail in Revelation as it is.

Norm
P.S. Here’s my original email to you.

To: JVHSA@jeffersonvalley.net
Sent: Saturday, April 22, 2006 4:32 PM
Subject: Thanks for your writtings

Dear Tim:

I felt I needed to write you a letter of appreciation for the work you have performed in regards to your online book “Beyond Creation Science”. I stumbled on to your writings last November while I was researching online for information about the Biblical flood. Being a student and teacher of the word I had not felt comfortable with my understanding of the first 11 chapters of Genesis and was furthering my understanding. I had recently purchased a commentary by Bruce Waltke on Genesis which had opened my eyes more to the literary approach to understanding the first book. I had always believed that I was missing something, maybe it was the spirit leading me. Years before I had stumbled across Hugh Ross’s web site and had found it much more compatible with the direction I was wanting to go but it seemed his teachings were not complete and diverged from my instincts about the scriptures eventually. When I read one of your articles about the flood light bulbs started going off. I was especially impressed with your explanation of the mistranslation of the Hebrew word erets, to say the least I was overjoyed to have finally discovered one of the keys that I had been missing. It dawned on me that I had put to much trust in those who perform our translations for us. It actually makes me angry to feel that we can’t trust those to perform that sacred trust for us, but I had to channel that emotion instead into heavy research. Well guess where all this has led me to? I am now a confirmed “preterist”. I have spent hours upon hours the past few months restudying my perspective on Revelation and Matt24 and I must say it is the most rewarding study that I have ever endeavored. This study has made me rethink scripture in a completely new mode and it all started because I was diligently seeking Gods truth and you had served the Lord in writing down these truths that had come to you and had made them available to others on the internet. Thank you. Now that I have gotten my hermeneutics more properly in order I am again tackling Genesis and feel that I indeed now have the “proper tools” J to strengthen may analysis of this wonderful book. It is amazing what a proper foundation in approaching scripture will reveal for you.
Again I want to say thanks for your willingness to serve the Lord in truth.
If there is anything I can do for you please let me know.
Norman Voss
Sugar Land, Tx

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Norm,

You are too kind.

I remember the letter well,

Blessings,

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

KingNeb's picture

kingneb: "That’s right…Tim doesn’t “know”. Virgil doesn’t “know”. It needs to be left at that, but I have a feeling some people won’t. Mark my word, before long someone will be turning all of this into “fact”.

And here it is:

Virgil's blog: "Today, Answers in Genesis is taking another shot at Preterism by taking advertising space in Whitehall Montana...the middle of nowhere. That is because that's where Tim Martin, the author of Beyond Creation Science: How Preterism Refutes a Global Flood and Impacts the Genesis Debate lives."

Even Tim had to respond to that one:

"One clarification that needs to be made at the moment. I don't yet know who, exactly, bought the ad and for what reason, precisely. It may have been AiG Headquarters or it may have been someone relatively local. I'm checking into it and will find the answer (if possible)."

____

That's what i'm talking about folks. This is how myths and legends get started. ( ;

thereignofchrist.com

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Jason,

I think it started when a monstrous AiG sign appeared in Whitehall, Montana. But maybe I'm totally missing something.

I'm working on finding the answers as we speak.

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

Ed's picture

"I'm working on finding the answers as we speak."

Tim, I hope that you are reading your bible, studying your Calvinist commentaries, and praying. Because you won't find any answers by using your senses. We all know that...sheesh.

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

Life14all's picture

Just a few quick observations.

1)A huge billboard sign the size of Noah's original ark that can be seen from outer space.

2)Thousands of dollars spent on a sign that is really in the middle of no where.

3)And finally, a sign placed along an interstate that leads to the very proof of all that is wrong with YEC found in the beauty of Glacier National Park.

Well AiG, your huge Whitehall Montana sign gets the Bill Engvall, "HERE'S YOUR SIGN" award for caring enough about Mr. Martin that you are giving him the very attention this billboard might bring to his BCS writings concerning a local flood event and more realistic answers that are found in the Genesis account by way of Covenant Eschatology.

Blessings,
Jim K.

PreteristArtist

Virgil's picture

I was thinking the same things Jim; in essence Tim should be happy about all this...he is getting free advertising for his book too :)

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Virgil,

Preterists just have to make do with what they get. You know how that is. We tend to be a scrappy bunch. I think that will pay off in a generation or three. Hopefully sooner.

Honestly, I'm not sure what to make of it: be happy or sad or mad or what. It is just bizarre.

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

P.S. Update: there is no talk of the sign in the town diner yet, according to the waitresses.

Missina's picture

That's the most intense sign I have ever seen. Hilarious!

Mick's picture

Hey guys maybe we can leak this to the local press. Get protesters outside the conference.

We could even leak it to Cedarville University that Virgil and Kyle are former grad. Oh, scratch that idea since my daughter is starting there in the Fall.

I am really looking forward to talking to Tim and Jeff as well. It will be quite a hoot.

Ah the joys of being a heretic. Once you are labeled for preterism, it just doesn't matter any more

Mickey E. Denen

Virgil's picture

You may be joking but I really believe that if enough end-times, Left-Behind type people would know about our conference, they would really picket the venue and protest us.

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Virgil,

I'm afraid you are totally right,

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

Kyle Peterson's picture

Hey, I didn't become Preterist until after I graduated! No broken statement of faith, conformance agreement here!

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