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I've been preaching 25 years almost; I've never seen the anointing as frightening as I saw in Denver Friday night; and so when you hear me in just a little bit give blessings and cursings ... any who attack this anointing, I speak a judgment on them.
-- Benny Hinn, TBN, Denver CO
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Exclusive: Todd Dennis and Preteristic Idealism
Posted on Wednesday, March 14 @ 12:38:15 PDT by Samuel Frost |
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by Samuel Frost
I consider Dennis to be a good friend of mine and have fellowshipped with him many times. Hopefully, after this article is read, that fellowship will remain intact. With that being said, I do want to critically evaluate his article Introduction to a Hybrid of Preterism and Idealism. I printed the article of twenty pages (numbered 1-20) and will use that for numbering my footnotes from this article.
Click here to read the entire article
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Samuel Frost is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com. Samuel is a MA Pastor of Christ Covenant Church in Tampa Florida. He is the author of Misplaced Hope and Exegetical Essays on the Resurrection of the Dead, both available in the PlanetPreterist bookstore.
View Samuel Frost archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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Re: Todd Dennis and Preteristic Idealism (Score: 1)
 by MiddleKnowledge on Wednesday, March 14 @ 14:10:29 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | "Honor to whom honor is due"
Sam,
Very well put. See you soon,
Blessings,
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org |
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Re: Todd Dennis and Preteristic Idealism (Score: 1)
by flannery0 on Wednesday, March 14 @ 15:48:02 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Hey Sam,
I just wanted to emphasize this paragraph of yours:
"A crisis is caused by old paradigms not being able to answer new questions (as Thomas Kuhn so correctly pointed out). An old paradigm must be replaced by another to resolve the crises. This is true. But, sometimes the crisis is merely caused by other factors as well that are irrelevant to the paradigm. The person who drinks too much will still drink too much even if he swallows (pun) Dennis' new hybrid. My own personal issues were not the result of my theology. In fact, FP has helped me deal with those issues effectively. Once I saw that I was no longer dealing with the devil, sin, and condemnation from God based upon performing 10 Keys For Successfully Pleasing God, my ability to begin to deal with issues realistically started. No more overnight vows ("I'll never do that again"). No more running to the altar and "rededicating" myself to the Lord. And no more nights spent abusing the "hell" out of myself for being such a wicked person. Jesus has set me free, not just "partially" or "ideally", but really and fully. Yes, this needs to be worked out in terms of theological scrutiny and that's why we started what we have started at Reign of Christ Ministries."
Awesome points. And I think I may need to spend more time at Reign of Christ. Hope to see you in a few weeks.
Tami
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- by davo on Wednesday, March 14 @ 16:43:38 PDT
- by MiddleKnowledge on Wednesday, March 14 @ 16:57:19 PDT
- by davo on Thursday, March 15 @ 09:52:59 PDT
- by Sam on Thursday, March 15 @ 12:07:13 PDT
Re: Todd Dennis and Preteristic Idealism (Score: 1)
by thebigbus on Wednesday, March 14 @ 16:55:23 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Wonderful article, Sam.
I enjoy your site tremendously, and hope you find time amidst your busy schedule to post more articles and more commentaries, especially on the OT prophets. |
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Re: Todd Dennis and Preteristic Idealism (Score: 1)
 by Life14all on Wednesday, March 14 @ 23:47:11 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Great article,Sam. I especially loved this quote concerning the awesome power of Gods unfailing love and mercy. And thanks for reminding us of how very near God is to us all the time.
"With us, because we are made holy and glorified in the Body of Christ, God says, come here, Son, Daughter. Why do you think the need to run away from me? I do not condemn you. I love you. That's what hurts right now. The love and perfection I have wonderfully bestowed upon you and the glory I have given to you by grace is what hurts you in your heart when you lose occasionally to evil thoughts. But know this! I do not condemn you. Your pain should cause you to come to me, see my grace and my face. Here, now, let me wipe away those tears and put a smile on your face."
Blessings,
Johnny Christian aka Johnny Preterist
btw... Would you mind if I make Johnny Preterist into a comic book hero to reach the youth of America with the message of Gods love found in the scriptural fulfillment of Christs completed victory? Of course, a superhero's cape with "JP" on it would be optional :-) |
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- by Sam on Thursday, March 15 @ 12:08:17 PDT
- by Life14all on Thursday, March 15 @ 12:28:00 PDT
- by Jhedges on Thursday, March 15 @ 15:27:32 PDT
Re: Todd Dennis and Preteristic Idealism (Score: 1)
by mazuur on Thursday, March 15 @ 09:05:14 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Sam,
This is off topic, but I am halfway through your book "Misplaced Hope", and wanted to say it is excellent. You have made me really think a lot about things I have never considered before. I have read the Apostolic Fathers writings, but that was before I was a Preterist. Your book is making me look at them through a new perspective (a preterist one) and it's now a whole new ball game.
I never picked up on the things your are pointing out (probably because I was not a preterism at the time). I do believe when I am done with your book, I am going to go back and read their writings again.
Thanks for your hard work on this book.
Rich |
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- by Sam on Thursday, March 15 @ 12:14:22 PDT
- by Starlight on Thursday, March 15 @ 16:21:58 PDT
Re: Todd Dennis and Preteristic Idealism (Score: 1)
by Starlight on Thursday, March 15 @ 09:58:07 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Sam,
This was an excellent article and I must admit for me it is very timely. I just returned from Kurt’s conference in NM this weekend where Todd Dennis made 3 presentations. His last one dealt with the Universal historical nature of Preterism and jolted me out of my chair. You have helped put Todd’s perspective into a better view for me and I truly appreciate your article. Sam I must say you are a very convincing author and scholar and I deeply appreciate your hard work to produce articles such as this.
I do want to address one aspect of your article that I think needs a little balance. Not much but some.
Sam …”I do not pay much attention to the "new preterist website" written by Johnny Preterist who all of the sudden has become an "expert" in Greek and Hebrew (by consulting his Strong's of course), and a theological beacon.”
Sam, I agree with you, But! Unfortunately our scholars have holes in their theology that doesn’t allow them to always develop the proper approach. When we amateurs see such things we are right in questioning and writing about it. If our theology was not such a mess because of the lack of scholarly ineptitude in some arenas you wouldn’t have amateurs doing what they do.
I fully recognize that I have no business attempting to write on theology, but I do so because of the need. I also believe that amateurs bring something to the plate and sometimes with hard work they are no longer amateurs.
But after saying all of that Sam I still need guys like you and Don Preston and I do appreciate your scholarly work, and articles like this just continue to reinforce why you guys are a blessing to us.
But Genesis is a different story and illustrates the holes in the perfection of your scholarly idealism. I have always said that the work that Tim, JL and myself are doing in Genesis should have already been accomplished but because of the same problems among scholars in Revelation we have had a lack of courage in delving into and developing it properly. Just like Revelation was eventually handled in a scholarly manner so will Genesis eventually be. Tim and JL’s book will help open the door to it.
And Sam OLD Earth is not a by product of Preterism and does not fall into Hyper Preterism, it has been around for a long time.
We just had a conference here in Houston numbering around 4000 held at the 2nd Baptist church which is one of the largest churches in America, it is much more accepted in American Religious circles than Preterism is at the moment.
Norm
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Re: Todd Dennis and Preteristic Idealism (Score: 1)
by lsthomp on Sunday, March 18 @ 14:04:10 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | I do not understand the point or premise of this article, or what Sam is seeking to prove. It appears that there are only a few minor points to which Sam does not agree with Todd and mainly criticizes Todd’s viewpoint in developing another systematic approach which Sam assumes is no different that the Full preterist view. Sam spends more time going after Todd rather than focusing on the major premises of Pret-Idealism. Sam does not quote a single passage of scripture in its entirety! There are only just a precious few references. WOW.
Sam does admit and acknowledge that the full preterist paradigm is in crises when he says “an old paradigm must be replaced by another [paradigm]to resolve the crises.” He affirms also, that there is an "inside" and "outside" motif in the Kingdom of God but does not define what this is and what should be characterized by this motif. However he denies that time or events outside of 70ad also has an “inside” and “outside” motif which can be manifested in a temporal way but point toward eternal truths in Christ.
If Sam believes that the Full Preterists have got it right and that the understanding 70AD is the final destination then by all means let him have his view. I do however think that it is NOT the destination for me. If all we see is a historical story and fail to seek to understand their substances, we have missed the point. While it is admitted Full Preterists seek to define things as Spiritual but stop short of defining what that means. They focus more on the historical story rather than the nature and substances to which those visible things are based. I certainly give some credit to Todd for focusing on the spiritual implications and connecting them to the heart. They make the bible real, and focus on improving my own walk with Christ. Theology aside, is that not what matters? Is that not the core message of Christ? He desires for our inside to be cleansed and for us to be holy and light. (These truths are timeless in scope)
It is quite confusing to me why Sam tries to undercut the connection between Universalism and Full Preterist when it has been shown that this has been historically manifested among Full Preterists. With what has been show, is that the terms Universalists and the Full Preterist have been synonymous and interchangeable with each other. In my mind this is the result of only seeing eschatology in a historical and as a past event, which is blinded to our own personal and internal eschatology.
Scott
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Re: Todd Dennis and Preteristic Idealism (Score: 1)
by Sam on Monday, March 19 @ 06:56:39 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | If one's experience was to concentrate on AD 70 and miss the application of Scripture today, that's not the problem of Full Preterism. That's the problem of the individual. As for the one comment that I am going after Todd, again, false. Todd and I are good friends and continue to remain good friends. He was most appreciative of my article and we look forward to further dialogue. Someone, then, missed the point of the article.
As for my not explaining my view, that was not the point of my paper. My point was to show that Todd contradicts himself in major ways, to which, it appears, he admits in a post on his site following this article there.
And, yes, Todd and I agree on a great deal of things, which is why I see a major problem with insisting that I need satan around in order to walk closely with the Lord. No one has addressed these points, yet.
As far as Universalism goes, a very few historical preterists have been universalists. No big discovery there. But, if one were to argue that FP leads to universalism, that would be a logical fallacy. Why not, on those grounds, argue that Christianity leads to universalism? After, all these universalists are Christians! Obviously, both arguments are inductive, therefore, unprovable. Universalists become universalists because of several, several factors, not just a single monolithic FP. It is a very poor argument.
Todd's basic argument, so it appears to me, is that since we have the destruction of "the Death" in A.D. 70, then how can any man be outside the kingdom? But, as I stated, and no one has dealt with this, either, every eschatology has the destruction of the Death at some point in time, be it 70 A.D. or 3023 A.D. What then? Does that mean that every man will be saved at that point since the Death is destroyed? Hardly. The elimination of the Death (the First Death, which, go to Romans 5 to find out that is), does not mean the elimination of outside/inside in the kingdom. No one has shown how it does. If that were the case, then the post A.D. 70 vision of Revelation 21,22 makes no sense, since the nations come "inside" from the "outside." Why wouldn't John picture them all as "now inside"? Universalism fails on many, many accounts, but the attempt by Todd to paint biblical FP as "leading" to universalism is, in my opinion, misleading and a bit underhanded.
Samuel Frost |
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Idealism and the Genesis Flood (Score: 1)
 by JL (j.l.preterist@gmail.com) on Tuesday, March 20 @ 17:33:30 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Townley gives us three choices
The impossible: a global Flood
The miserable: a local Flood
The idealist dismissal: no Flood
That's the whole story on Townley. Since Townley is lauded as the first pret-idealist, that implies that the historic pret-idealist position is denial of the Flood.
Those of you who are pret-idealists, if you disagree with Townley's position, could you please clarify your own?
Blessings
JL |
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Pet Idealism seems silly (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Wednesday, March 21 @ 15:46:02 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | What I think is funny is the claim that this view is old. On Pret Archive they try to say that St. Augustine is the "father" of it. The fact is that St. Augustine was a Futurist Idealist (That is the definition of Idealist). He did not believe that the resurrection / Great White Throne / Second Coming / was in the past ie on-going still. That is no differnt then if I tried to hijack a Partial Pret in history as evidence for the Full Pret view.
Pret Idealists still put the resurrection of the dead (Rev 20) in the past (the 2nd coming) in some respect. They know that that is why the "modern" label is put on Full Prets by guys like TD. (Of course they say that their site is "unbiased - LOL). It really should be called "Modern Pret Idealism" but it gets worse...
They have hi-jacked the terms Idealist and Preterist. By definition they can not co-exist like that. That would be a contradiction in terms.
According to Webster's Unabridged Universal Dictionary, a Preterist is "a theologian who believes that the prophecies of the Apocalypse have already been fulfilled"
According to Wikipedea, Idealism in Christian eschatology is an interpretation of the Book of Revelation that sees all of the imagery of the book as non-literal symbols which are perpetually and cyclically fulfilled in a spiritual sense during the conflict between the Kingdom of God and the forces of Satan throughout the time from the first advent to the Second Coming of Christ.
These two views are in total contradiction. Which apparently the "pret-idealist" doesn't mind, since he allows his view to contradict scripture time after time.
Here is just an example of Pret Idealist silliness...
The Millennium" - (full pret) External, Historical Epoch for All(AD30-70) vs. (pret idealist) Internal Era for Redeemed
Internal era for the redeemed?
Guess since the 1000 years goes on forever in the idealist view,the "rest of the dead" never get to come to life since the 1000 years is never completed?
Revelation 20 and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
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- by TheIdealNate on Thursday, March 22 @ 02:53:48 PDT
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Back to Basics - Video on Proper Interpretation Rules (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Thursday, March 22 @ 09:37:50 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | | http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WKqJlMoCkg&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Ethekingdomcome%2Ecom%2F |
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