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Satan conquered Jesus on the Cross and took His spirit to the dark regions of hell -- Kenneth Copeland, Holy Bible: Kenneth Copeland Reference Edition |
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by Virgil Vaduva Eric Rauch of American Vision has been writing a series of articles on the topic of postmodernism and its evils, but Eric does not seem to be doing justice to those whom he is criticizing. I am certain his intentions are noble and honest, but Eric seems to be misrepresenting specific people and entire philosophical systems. I am hoping that American Vision will perhaps reconsider its position regarding emerging Christianity and learn to see the positive facets of Christian postmodernism.
There is nothing outside the text
Since most of American Vision’s criticism is aimed at postmodernism, I want to first of all point out something that most critics ignore for some reason or another, and that is the –ism nature of the system. Thomas Carlyle, the Scottish author and historian was one of the first writers to coin the concept of an –ism in that he observed that the “hopes and aspirations of people that took the form of ideas were often ossified into ideologies of –isms.” Such has become the system of postmodernism which is being attacked by so many critics today. It should be noted by both critics and proponents that postmodernism has in a sense become what its skeptic fathers and grandfathers, like Kierkegaard, Nietzsche and even Derrida wanted to avoid the most: a relatively objective means used to arrive to a conclusion, driven by rationality and modern certainty. It has been only recently that postmodern thinking has been synthesized into an –ism, mostly by its critics, all the while others continue to struggle to define and understand post-modernity as an evolutionary movement rather than another –ism-atic event in the world of philosophy or theology.
This struggle often manifests itself into outbursts or accusations of “relativism” or “liberalism” which are, as far as I am concerned, empty of any substance and a bit Johnny-come-lately in the world of theological and philosophical debate. As far back as Augustine, deconstruction has been a valuable tool for the Christian theologian. Folks like the French philosopher Jacques Derrida have dealt very successfully with those accusations and demonstrated how deconstruction (at least in the literary-philosophical sense) can lead to a much richer understanding of a text. In essence Derrida’s deconstruction processes suggested that the understanding of thought or belief (in the framework of philosophical of perhaps even theological criticism) should involve the “discovery, recognizance and understanding of the underlying—and unspoken and implicit—assumptions, ideas, and frameworks that form the basis for thought and belief.”
Derrida’s famous declaration “there is nothing outside the text” is little more than Luther’s “sola scriptura” credo, so in the most Biblical sense, Jacques Derrida should be a Christian’s best friend. While early Christian critics of Derrida were looking for reasons to present his deconstruction as being antithetical to Christianity, we can now better understand that “there is nothing outside of text” is a crucial part in the process and method of understanding in which “interpretation is everything.”[1]
This kind of methodology is very much unpalatable to the modern Christian, mostly because it requires the unfamiliar effort of defending long-established standards, and to the modern mind, something can only be true if it is known objectively, uniformly, and also universally by all people in all places at all times. This raises new questions regarding the interpreted status of the Gospel. John Owen observed this when he stated: “That Jesus Christ was crucified, is a proposition that any natural [i.e. unregenerate] man may understand and assent to, and be said to receive: and all the doctrines of the gospel may be taught in propositions and discourses, the sense and meaning of which a natural man may understand; but it is denied that he can receive the things themselves. For there is a wide difference between the mind’s receiving doctrines notionally, and receiving the things taught in the really.”[2]
In essence Owen is subscribing to a very non-traditional apologetic, in that the foundation proposition of Christianity, namely that Christ was crucified, needs in itself to be interpreted in order to become a reality; i.e. there is a difference between receiving doctrine “notionally” and receiving doctrine “really.”
If language and experience are then mere vehicles for a message that always has to be interpreted, how should we be affected as followers of Christ, especially when we espouse public theology or condemn (or damn) others for their theology or doctrine? The problem is therefore with the modern Christian who would insist on subscribing to the notion that “something can be true only if it can be known objectively” rather than allowing for a deconstructive method of interpretation which brings to light other possibilities.
A Mysterious Faith
But this modern framework for Christianity is creating major problems for the new generations and for non-western cultures in which objective and rational knowledge is not necessarily the root of all truth. In essence one could reason that modernism's quest to explain and understand the mysteries of all things in the Universe is rationalism at its best or humanism at its worst; modernism is then hardly compatible with traditional apologetics.
While critics of postmodernism often appeal to propositional truth as being the required context of everything, they glance over the mysterious aspect of their supposed Biblical and propositional truth. Defending Biblical truth, Eric Rauch quotes Gary DeMar: “When Genesis opens with the simple declaration “In the beginning God,” it does not argue for God’s existence; it assumes and asserts it. It is the grand presupposition of the creation narrative. In the believing worldview, the infinite, eternal, personal God absolutely exists and is the ground of all being.”[3]
Eric concludes that “We must begin where God begins. If the culture is skeptical of propositional truth, then that should only serve as a confirmation of where we need to begin.”[4] This conclusion again illustrates the problematic framework and assumptions under which modern Christianity operates. Is Eric willing to reject all other presuppositions and settle for just one, “God exists?” If so, why then criticize the postmodern Christians, since they all subscribe to this truth? If not, how are the other propositional truths founded on this very first truth? How did Eric’s modern Christianity for example conclude that slavery is immoral just because “God exists?” Furthermore, Eric thinks he understands the beginning because this beginning comes from God (since it is written in the Bible), yet he still has to intellectually interpret this beginning. Thus the propositional truth preached by Eric is not propositional truth at all; instead Eric is giving us his interpretation of the beginning. To Eric, the beginning of Genesis 1:1 is the beginning of God’s creation of the entire Universe; to a Jewish scholar, Genesis 1:1 is the beginning of God’s creative process regarding life on Earth.[5] To Eric, God possibly created the entire Universe several thousand years ago; to some Jewish scholars God created the Universe and the Earth a very long time ago and perhaps created human life just in the more recent history of the planet. To Eric, God simply created the universe; to a Jew, God used the Torah as the blueprint for the creation. To different people, the beginning of Genesis 1:1 means different things as a result of different interpretations. Clearly things are not as straightforward as Eric claims. My point is simply to show that Eric’s methodology is simply not working.
As you can see, this is how the lines between propositional truth and interpretation become blurry. And this is where the postmodern conversation becomes a valuable tool to be used in the interpretative process. Derrida’s postmodern proclamation “there is nothing outside the text” suddenly becomes quite important when deconstructing Genesis 1:1. If the text itself is the propositional truth and our reading of it is its interpretation, then both modern and postmodern Christians should try to find common and generous ground when interacting and discussing those topics. And simply discussing those topics does not mean rejecting them or somehow dishonoring the inerrancy of the Bible or the sovereignty of God.
Granted that postmodernism has its shortcomings, many modern Christians are rushing headlong to throw out the baby with the bathwater; it is becoming quite en vogue to jump on the “bash emergent/postmoderns” bandwagon. Another example of this is Eric’s condemnation of mystery and paradox which are often embraced by postmodern Christians. Quoting Franky Schaefer’s view of mystery as a reason for his conversion to Greek Orthodoxy, Eric concludes that mystery and truth cannot be compatible: “Like McLaren, Franky views paradox and mystery as a plus. In fact, this is the reason why he converted to the Orthodox church—absolutist certainty is so twentieth century. Schaeffer and McLaren are remaking Christianity in their own image, and then use it as a club against anyone who still believes in Truth.”[6]
If truth demands absolute certainty, then Christianity has much bigger problems to deal with than postmodernism. When my children ask me various questions about God, I find myself answering “I do not know” quite often. In the modern eyes that apparently makes me a bad father! The famed Romanian poet and philosopher Lucian Blaga illustrated the need for mystery in human life very well in the following poem:
I will not crush the world’s corolla of wonders[7]
...and I will not kill
with reason
the mysteries I meet along my way
in flowers, eyes, lips and graves.
The light of others
drowns the deep magic hidden
in the profound darkness.
I increase the world’s enigma
with my light
much as the moon with its white beams
does not diminish but increase
the shimmering mystery of night –
I enrich the darkening horizon
with chills of the great secret.
All that is hard to know
becomes a greater riddle
under my very eyes
because I love alike
flowers, lips, eyes and graves.
Blaga noticed something that many Christians notice when they study the scriptures. It is the strange feeling that we often cannot express in a clear way: the more we study and try to learn about God, the less we seem to understand, and the bigger the mystery grows. The white light of the moon “does not diminish but increase the shimmering mystery of night.” Perhaps all of us have experienced this one way or another. We read and study the Bible, and as a result we experience a paradigm shift which reveals to us a new insight into the Scriptures while creating new mysteries to be explored and discovered. This was one of the results of my “conversion” to Preterism. As a result of understanding fulfilled prophecy, I now find myself reassessing other areas of my faith in light of what happened in AD 70.
In Romania older and wiser people often tell the young the story of a man’s quest to understand the rose and its mysteries. This man spends his entire life studying the intricate flower, taking apart each petal and studying them in details, trying to understand how the complex petals fit together, learning about the stem, the structure of the flower, the various colors and species of roses. Yet this entire quest to understand the mystery of the rose ends with this man’s sheer failure to simply admire the beautiful flower for what it truly is, smell it deeply, feel its soft and beautiful petals and share this beautiful flower with someone else.
As I wrote before, mysteries seem to be the greatest motivator for humans to do and accomplish great things: Why? Why climb the Everest? Why land on the Moon? Why explore the Unknown, whatever it may be? Because we can! Because God apparently created us with a spirit willing to explore the mysterious, learn from it and become better people and better Christians in the process.

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When Eric Rauch concludes that “Despite “good” intentions, these postmodern Christians are actually hindering the progress of the very gospel that they claim to believe”[8] he fails to explain what this gospel really is or how exactly postmodernism hinders the Gospel. He also fails to clarify if this gospel is propositional truth or his interpretation of what the Bible says the Gospel is. Is Eric suggesting that it is the impersonal propositional truth that saves us from Death, or is a genuine relationship with God that saves us? Has God become just another mystery that can be solved by the modern mind, or is he a genuine person that feels, interacts, speaks and loves? After all, is God actually alive?
God is Dead
This is the (in) famous statement made by Friedrich Nietzsche in The Gay Science, a book published in 1882. Much has been made of this statement and to this day Christians avoid Nietzsche for daring to put those words on paper, but often the context is being ignored.
In The Gay Science Nietzsche is using the third person of a madman in order to tell the parable of God’s death at the hands of men. Telling the story of a madman looking for God in the morning with a lantern, in the marketplace, he writes:
“The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes.”Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him---you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.
How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us---for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto.”[9]
And in a wonderful and masterful way, Nietzsche concludes in his parable that Churches have become as much the tombs of men as they are the tombs of God:
“It has been related further that on the same day the madman forced his way into several churches and there struck up his requiem aeternam deo. Led out and called to account, he is said always to have replied nothing but: "What after all are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of God?”[10]
Nietzsche’s work illustrates as early as the 1800s that the certainties of the Enlightenment were misplaced and seemed to be at odds with the Christian faith. Unlike what critics suggest, Nietzsche did not literally believe God to be dead but he took on a provocative posture regarding modernism and progress; the madman’s discourse was in fact addressed to Atheists, not Christians and where others saw irreversible human progress offering us answers with certainty, Nietzsche saw the death of the divine; where the Enlightenment broke open the box of universal mysteries, Nietzsche saw humanism covered in the blood of God; and finally when the protagonist searched for God in the church, we finally understand that truly only a madman would try such a thing since modern churches have become little more than tombs or sepulchers for God where Christians do little more than offering an eternal requiem to God.
Rarely can we find a more masterful criticism of Christian-ism, which is Nietzsche’s portrayal of modern Christianity, the pre-packaged ideology and institutionalism that has little resemblance left of Christ’s message. The modernization of the Church has in Nietzsche’s eyes led to nothing short of God’s very death! Yes, God is dead…and modernism killed him! And as if the holy blood dripping from our hands is not bad enough, we continue to kill God every time we affirm ideological formulas over dynamic faith and impersonal creedalism over the enormous mystery of the spiritual surrounding us. To Nietzsche, skepticism was the only comfort to the terrifying tomb bearing the name of God: the church. To the postmodern Christian, mystery is the only comfort keeping God alive and safe from the certainties of modernism.
While Eric Rauch liberally (and strangely) associates New Atheism with the “resurrection of postmodernism,” he also strangely fails to connect the death of God with the rise of absolute certainty in the days of Darwin for example. Instead, Eric resorts to ad-hominem attacks against emerging Church proponents, using words like “religiosity” and suggesting that reading emerging church material would “lull brain cells to sleep.”[11] Yes, apparently modernism is not guilty of anything negative; only the new kid on the block, postmodernism, is responsible for the rebirth of Atheism. In essence, Eric is quite forward when he is suggesting that there is little or no merit to be found either in the emerging Church or postmodernism!
Yet it is only because of the insistence of modernism that the Church continues to offer theological and impersonal solutions to deep spiritual problems experienced by the contemporary generations. Modern Christianity has marketed itself as the solution to all mysteries and problems, when in fact it has very few practical answers to offer, and many ideological solutions available. According to Thomas Carlyle, only those heroes, the dynamic individuals can overcome the ideological formulas imposed by the society and can truly master their present and future; unlike Eric claims, the –isms formulated by these ideologies are holding back the Gospel, not postmodern thinking. Postmoder-ism has its flaws, while a postmodern posture has many benefits to offer.
Christian-ism has replaced Christianity, and modern Christians are holding on for dear life to creeds, ideologies and formulas, allowing interpretation to become propositional truth and looking down on all others who think, act and believe differently.
The solution is not holding on to modernism for dear life or blindly embracing everything postmodernism brings to the table; after all as I already mentioned, postmodern-ism has become just another –ism that needs to be overcome by the heroes of today, as Carlyle suggested. I believe that God wants us to practice discernment and carefully deconstruct the Scriptures in order to construct a better interpretation of who God is, how we can know him better, why he wants a relationship with us and how we can improve those relationships with him and with each other.
In almost every instance, when Jesus was asked direct questions about a certain issue he responded with a parable or a riddle, framed in such a way that it greatly appealed to the minds and the enigmatic desires of his audience. It is the story telling that motivates us to search, grow and not settle for the comfort of the –isms. The stories told by Christ can not and should not be ossified into “ideologies of –isms.” Rather they are meaningful in different ways to different people from different times and different cultures.
Rethinking modernism and some aspects of postmodernism can cause pain and anger on both sides; we often feel that the light we find in the Scriptures reveals as many mysteries as it uncovers anew. Eric is in his own right to question postmodernism, but he is appealing to modernism in order to do so. The irony of using a flawed system to analyze another flawed system is rich, and the analysis gives us little answers and does not compel me to go back to a modern way of thinking or a modern methodology, nor does it encourage me to embrace all things postmodern. Instead perhaps we can together acknowledge the errors of our own ways and look forward to a post-postmodern age where people like Eric and I can together look confidently to a future where our faith can be relevant, powerful and meaningful for all mankind.
[1] James K. A. Smith is making this case in “Whos Afraid of Postmodernism?”
[2] John Owen, Holy Spirit, p. 155
[3] Gary DeMar, Pushing the Antithesis: The Apologetic Methodology of Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 2007), 49. Available March 2007.
[4] Eric Rauch, The Forbidden Tree of Postmodernism, http://americanvision.org/articlearchive2007/01-25-07.asp
[5] Several schools of thought within Judaism subscribe to the idea that God created the Earth and life on Earth out of pre-existing matter, therefore contradicting the ex-nihilo creation traditional taught by Christians.
[6] Eric Rauch, The Postmodern Resurrection, http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive2007/01-18-07.asp
[7] Lucian Blaga, I will not crush the world’s corolla of wonders, translated by Andrei Codrescu. (Columbus, 1989), 3. The poem first appeared in Glasul Bucovinei (The voice of Bukovina) on January 16, 1919
[8] Eric Rauch, The Postmodern Resurrection, http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive2007/01-18-07.asp
[9] Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science (1882, 1887) para. 125; Walter Kaufmann ed. (New York: Vintage, 1974), pp.181-82.
[10] Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science (1882, 1887) para. 125; Walter Kaufmann ed. (New York: Vintage, 1974), pp.181-82.
[11] Eric Rauch, The Postmodern Resurrection, http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive2007/01-18-07.asp
------
Virgil Vaduva is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com.
View Virgil Vaduva archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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Re: Who is Afraid of Postmodernism? (Score: 1)
by Sam on Tuesday, January 30 @ 21:11:11 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil,
Are you trying to say something meaningful and truthful as opposed to Eric? If so, is what you are saying true? Can I reject it? Or am I wrong for rejecting it?
Sam |
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Re: Nietzsche On: Stolen Teeth (Score: 1)
by chrisliv on Tuesday, January 30 @ 23:04:33 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Yeah,
I wish both, modern and post-modern, Clergy were as honest as Nietzsche in his preaching about the nature of the State:
"There are still peoples and herds somewhere, but not with us, my brothers: here there are states. The state? What is that? Well then! Now open your ears, for now I shall speak to you of the death of peoples.
"The state is the coldest of all cold monsters. Coldly it lies, too; and this lie creeps from its mouth; “I, the state, am the people.” It is a lie! It was creators who created peoples and hung a faith and a love over them: thus they served life. It is destroyers who set snares for many and call it the state: they hang a sword and a hundred desires over them.
"Where a people still exists, there the people do not understand the state and hate it as the evil eye and sin against custom and law. I offer you this sign: every people speaks its own language of good and evil: its neighbor does not understand this language. It invented this language for itself in custom and law. But the state lies in all languages of good and evil; and whatever it says, it lies -- and whatever it has, it has stolen. Everything about it is false; it bites with stolen teeth. Even its belly is false.
"...It will give you everything if you worship it, this new idol: thus it buys for itself the luster of your virtues and the glance of your proud eyes. It wants to use you to lure the many-too-many. Yes, a cunning device of Hell has here been devised, a horse of death jingling with the trappings of divine honors! Yes, a death for many has here been devised that glorifies itself as life: truly a heart-felt service to all preachers of death!"
Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone |
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- by Virgil on Wednesday, January 31 @ 07:24:16 PST
Re: Who is Afraid of Postmodernism? (Score: 1)
by Mick on Wednesday, January 31 @ 05:42:37 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil: The problem is therefore with the modern Christian who would insist on subscribing to the notion that “something can be true only if it can be known objectively” rather than allowing for a deconstructive method of interpretation which brings to light other possibilities.
Mick: Help me understand what this means. As I see it regardless of what we call it, “there is nothing outside the text” or “sola scriptura” there needs to be a conclusion we come to from the examination of a text. If it were possible to open a text of the Bible and evaluate it without presupposition, we must come to a conclusion or premise concerning what we think it means and how it applies to living in a fulfilled kingdom. A conclusion is arrived at though discussion with other fellow students of the Bible as we bring other Bible texts to the discussion to support our view, this is the process of "as iron sharpens iron so one man sharpens another." The conclusion may not be static and further spiritual growth may lead to other conclusions with time, but truth can be found and it is objective.
Virgil: When my children ask me various questions about God, I find myself answering “I do not know” quite often. In the modern eyes that apparently makes me a bad father!
Mick: I think that may be an unfair representation of modern thought. I think modernism would lead a father to ask his child, "What does the Bible say about that?" Then show the child how to find out using known Bible verses and a concordance.
Virgil: The solution is not holding on to modernism for dear life or blindly embracing everything postmodernism brings to the table; after all as I already mentioned, postmodern-ism has become just another –ism that needs to be overcome by the heroes of today, as Carlyle suggested. I believe that God wants us to practice discernment and carefully deconstruct the Scriptures in order to construct a better interpretation of who God is, how we can know him better, why he wants a relationship with us and how we can improve those relationships with him and with each other.
Mick: Amen raised to the Amenth power. (sorry I don't know how to do superscripts) |
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- by Virgil on Wednesday, January 31 @ 07:05:36 PST
Re: Afraid of ... (Score: 1)
by Kyle Peterson (peterson.kyle@gmail.com) on Wednesday, January 31 @ 06:51:14 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | I think the biggest fears have to do with the lack of absolutes.
Between the Enlightenment and Modernist thinking people have created long lists of beliefs to help make us feel secure about our humanity (Christianity?).
As Virgil points out, Postmodern thought tends to deconstruct these lists during our search for the truth - leaving fewer absolutes than we started with. This makes people uncomfortable. Even more uncomfortable may be the fact that we only need a handful of absolutes.
One of the fears I have is there is so much deconstruction going on a Christian can fall pray to deconstructing the very thing that makes him Christian - The reality of God's/Christ's love and desire to relate to His creation. Perhaps this is why we see PM being referred to as the new athiesm.
For a very balanced perspective on developing a Christian worldview I highly recommend Bill Brown's book "Where have all the Dreamers Gone". Dr. Brown is the President of Cedarville University (my alma mater) and does a good job drawing the lines where the thinks too much liberalism can do more damage than good. |
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Re: Who is Afraid of Postmodernism? (Score: 1)
by Flakinde on Wednesday, January 31 @ 07:28:48 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | "Eric is in his own right to question postmodernism, but he is appealing to modernism in order to do so. The irony of using a flawed system to analyze another flawed system is rich, and the analysis gives us little answers and does not compel me to go back to a modern way of thinking or a modern methodology[...]"
Virgil,
I would submit that what is truly ironic is that you are analyzing both Eric's thoughts and postmodern thinking by using what you call the "modern" methodology, after all. You just can't escape it... yet what you end up doing is refusing to embrace the infinite regress that you have created and is right in front of you, whether you want to ignore it or not.
Some examples:
"If truth demands absolute certainty, then Christianity has much bigger problems to deal with than postmodernism. When my children ask me various questions about God, I find myself answering “I do not know” quite often. In the modern eyes that apparently makes me a bad father!"
Yet "I don't know" is quite a certain proposition. In other words, you are claiming that it is quite certain that you don't know what you're being asked. From the postmodern mindset, you would also demonize the certainty of affirming you don't know, in favor of something "mysterious" like "it might be true that I don't know, but maybe I do know". Now that would be truly refusing to ascertain... something the postmodern claims to do, yet never does successfully.
Another:
"Yet it is only because of the insistence of modernism that the Church continues to offer theological and impersonal solutions to deep spiritual problems experienced by the contemporary generations. Modern Christianity has marketed itself as the solution to all mysteries and problems, when in fact it has very few practical answers to offer, and many ideological solutions available."
Is it absolutely certain that the insistence of modernism causes the Church to offer impersonal solutions? Is it absolutely certain that modern Christianity has marketed itself as a solution? Is it absolutely certain that modern Christianity has very few practical answers? If these are not certainties, then what do these sentences mean, and how do they prove your point? Moreover, how does expressing propositions in this way not contradict everything you are trying to say?
Yet another (as if it were necessary):
"As I wrote before, mysteries seem to be the greatest motivator for humans to do and accomplish great things: Why? Why climb the Everest? Why land on the Moon? Why explore the Unknown, whatever it may be? Because we can! Because God apparently created us with a spirit willing to explore the mysterious, learn from it and become better people and better Christians in the process."
Did scientists ascertain anything after climbing the Everest or landing on the Moon? If so, wouldn't you condemn that too? Or would you say the experience of climbing or landing was the only worthwhile aspect?
Also, how does one know he has "explored the mysterious"? Maybe it should remain a mystery if one has ever explored the mysterious or not? Or maybe it is a mystery that it is a mystery that there either is a mystery or there is not (and right into infinite regress)?
Again, I believe you are doing exactly what you are crying out against, and this proves that postmodern (or postmodernism, no difference when analyzing its methodology) is just a superficial facade that describes an attitude against a methodology, not a methodology itself.
Another entirely different issue has to do with your idea of interpretation, which largely has to do with your notion of God's sovereignty (with which I am sure we would disagree), yet you don't seem to acknowledge this more fundamental aspect of your own interpretation of what "interpretation" means.
I ex
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Re: Who is Afraid of Postmodernism? (Score: 1)
by Sam on Wednesday, January 31 @ 16:56:37 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | I have been reading PM literature for over 15 years now. I have quite a collection of material. I don't think that what is being said in here entirely grasps the point of Deconstruction. Let me point this out clearly, because some of the aspects of Decon. was taught by Gordon Clark (Presuppositionalism). He was one of the only men in the forties and fifties analyzing Wittgenstein and Shopenhauer (and Nietschze). In fact, his work was the reason why I took a strong interest in philosophy in general.
Now, on one hand, some on Pl. Pret. affirm Deconstruction as a legitimate means of criticizing Truth (I use the term "criticize" in an academic sense). Yet, these same people affirm science as able to establish absolute-true propositions. Virgil has said this to me explicitly. But, Derrida is more in line with Thomas Kuhn on the philosophy of science. I submitted an article in here by Gary Crampton that showed, very clearly, that science, since it is empirical, can never, ever demonstrate Truth. In that article, basically, the view of Thomas Kuhn on the nature of science was affirmed (the article is here: http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=163). I say this to quote from John D. Caputo, Derrida's able critic and dear friend. Caputo is a Deconstructionist. Listen to him: "So, if deconstruction would have interesting and constructive things to say about science [it would be] very much in the spirit of Kuhnian and post-Kuhnian philosophers of science" (Deconstruction in a Nutshell, 74). Further, "a deconstructivist approach to natural science would maintain that the "laws" of science are always destructible (revisable) just in virtue of an science to come, one that is presently unforeseeable" (73). These "laws" should not be taken "dogmatically" (73). Amen and amen. That's what I have been saying all along in here. Now, the question. For someone who considers themself PM on one hand, yet affirm that science can "discover" absolute truth on the other, how does that square? Second, how is my apporach to science (Kuhnian) ridiculed as "an attack on science and knowledge" as Virgil has written? After all, Virgil, I am just following Derrida here...
Sam Frost
www.thereignofchrist.com |
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Re: Who is Afraid of Postmodernism? (Score: 1)
by Barry on Thursday, February 01 @ 06:32:32 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | I am right and you are all wrong!
http://planetpreterist.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=2893&PHPSESSID=ed16597c9913a8f6338eec5569becb11
ROFL
Barry |
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Racism and Calvinism (Score: 1)
by JL (j.l.preterist@gmail.com) on Friday, February 02 @ 08:09:10 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Jason wants to change the subject again.
Here's the link to the original discussion Jason forgot to provide.
Roderick wrote an article that basically asked why so few blacks are Calvinists and why Calvinism has so little impact among Blacks. This is a very interesting and fair question.
Roderick provided a seed of the answer in his second paragraph. I started my search for information there and found the answer. I demonstrated why from history. The answer is not very flattering. Calvinists invented racism and it invented the race-based slave trade. (They did not invent slavery. They invented a specific form of slavery, race-based slavery.) It was one of the first acts of the original Dutch Calvinist state. The Dutch Calvinists and the Scottish Presbytereans then spread it all over the world. Of course, both Jason and Roderick found this offensive. But Roderick finally conceded that the history was true.
Jason however denies the relevance of history. As I am not a gnostic, God's test in Deut. 18:22 is enough for me. Roderick claimed and Jason still claims that Calvinism is good for blacks. History clearly says otherwise, as I documented in that discussion.
Ideas have consequences. If Jason doesn't like the consequences, then the underlying ideas are the problem. Jason is basically denying this principle.
For some reason Jason thinks that I should provide the specific doctrine of Calvinism that led to racism. Why? He feels that if I can't prove logically that some specific doctrine of Calvinism caused racism, then he can ignore history.
Since he's insisting, I think the whole Calvinist doctrine is inherently racist. More importantly, my wife and every black Christian I've personally asked since Roderick's article came out thinks so. (I've also learned that among my aquaintances, most white baptists call themselves Calvinists but most black baptists deny they are Calvinists.)
If Jason and Roderick don't share the racist views of their Calvinist forefathers, it is because they are the ones who have a corrupted form of Calvinism. If they want blacks to accept Calvinism, they need to determine what is different and demonstrate it to those people they are trying to convert to Calvinism.
Roderick understands this and has accepted it. I have no doubt he is still working on the problem. Jason is still in his Gordon Clark inspired, gnostic denial.
JL |
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Re: Who is Afraid of Postmodernism? (Score: 0, Offtopic)
by Kanzei on Friday, February 02 @ 11:33:14 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Postmodernism is almost an undefined term, and for good reason; postmodernism denies definition! (don't believe me, click here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism)
To deny definition is to deny the first act of the intellect, aristotelian logic, the rational nature of man, and one's own ability to think.
It denies the scripture when is says "let us reason together".
It denies everything that is Christian.
But as postmodernism is atheistic (it expicitely rejects A Priori knowledge, upon which faith exists. Quine and other postmodernists wrote on this topic), a Christian argument to refute postmodernism cannot be accepted by a postmodernist.
So, I would offer to them the objectivist argument (which they'll also reject, since no argument can have any meaning. truly, nothing is more self righteous than postmodernism since all argumentation is rejected as without foundation (Rorty). In fact, I'm wondering how a postmodernist can hold his own position, since it by definition has no foundation either...but that aside for a moment).
This is Ayn Rand speaking on philosophy and debunking postmodernism (although not by name).
http://gos.sbc.edu/r/rand.html
Address To The Graduating Class Of
The United States Military Academy at West Point,
New York - March 6, 1974
Since I am a fiction writer, let us start with a short short story. Suppose that you are an astronaut whose spaceship gets out of control and crashes on an unknown planet. When you regain consciousness and find that you are not hurt badly, the first three questions in or mind would be: Where am I? How can I discover it? What should I do?
You see unfamiliar vegetation outside, and there is air to breathe; the sunlight seems paler than you remember it and colder. You turn to look at the sky, but stop. You are struck by a sudden feeling: it you don't look, you won't have to know that you are, perhaps, too far from the earth and no return is possible; so long as you don't know it, you are free to believe what you wish--and you experience a foggy, pleasant, but somehow guilty, kind of hope.
You turn to your instruments: they may be damaged, you don't know how seriously. But you stop, struck by a sudden fear: how can you trust these instruments? How can you be sure that they won't mislead you? How can you know whether they will work in a different world? You turn away from the instruments.
Now you begin to wonder why you have no desire to do anything. It seems so much safer just to wait for something to turn up somehow; it is better, you tell yourself, not to rock the spaceship. Far in the distance, you see some sort of living creatures approaching; you don't know whether they are human, but they walk on two feet. They, you decide, will tell you what to do.
You are never heard from again.
This is fantasy, you say? You would not act like that and no astronaut ever would? Perhaps not. But this is the way most men live their lives, here, on earth.
Most men spend their days struggling to evade three questions, the answers to which underlie man's every thought, feeling and action, whether he is consciously aware of it or not: Where am I? How do I know it? What should I do?
By the time they are old enough to understand these questions, men believe that they know the answers. Where am I? Say, in New York City. How do I know it? It's self-evident. What should I do? Here, they are not too sure--but the usual answer is: whatever everybody does. The only trouble seems to be that they are not very active, not very confident, not very happy--and they experience, at times, a causeless fear and an undefined guilt, which they cannot explain or get rid of.
They have never discovered the fact that the trouble comes from the three unanswered questions--and that there is only one science that can answer the
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Racism's smoking Calvinist gun (Score: 1)
by JL (j.l.preterist@gmail.com) on Wednesday, February 07 @ 18:01:09 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | From Calvin's Commentary on Genesis:
25. Cursed be Canaan--This doom has been fulfilled in the destruction of the Canaanites--in the degradation of Egypt and the slavery of the Africans, the descendants of Ham.
From the Geneva Bible:
Ge 9:25
9:25 And he said, {r} Cursed [be] Canaan; a {s} servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.
(r) He pronounces as a prophet the curse of God against all those who do not honour their parents: for Ham and his posterity were cursed.
(s) That is, a most vile slave.
Ge 9:27
9:27 God shall {t} enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.
(t) He declares that the Gentiles, who came from Japheth, and were separated from the Church, should be joined to the same by the persuasion of God's Spirit, and preaching of the gospel.
Calvin himself declared that all of Ham's descendants were supposed to be slaves.
The Geneva Bible called Ham and his descendants vile and likewise condemned them to be slaves. Japheth's descendants would be added to Seth's through the gospel. This implies that Ham's would not.
This is the Reformed basis for slavery and racism. Ham's descendants were beyond the reach of God's salvation and were condemned as slaves.
Now Jason, it is up to you to prove they didn't mean it.
JL |
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