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I am a little god! Critics, be gone!
-- Paul Crouch, Praise The Lord, July 7, 1986
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The Great Debate: Who is the Beast of Revelation?
Posted on Wednesday, December 20 @ 09:15:03 PST by Chris Charles |
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twospirits submitted: "In my recent articles published on Planetpreterist; "An Apologetic on Babylon the great of Revelation" (Nov. 12,06), and "An Apologetic on Dispensationalism" (Nov. 16,06): I found that the majority of the comments I recieved concerned the topic of the beast of Revelation and Babylon the whore discussed in the articles. By these many comments on this topic, it became apparent to me that I did not present myself clearly enough on this issue. As we know volumes could be written on this subject alone, so it is impossible to compress it all in one short article. But hopefully, some things can be made clearer here on this important subject.
First it must be noted, if my understanding is correct, partial and full preterists see the beast of the sea of Revelation as being the Roman Empire. And Babylon, the woman, the harlot, the great city, as being Jerusalem "who rides the beast Rome" that turns on her and destroys her in 70 A.D. Whereas the futurists believe the book of Revelation is a prophecy of things to come. And they hold to different views concerning the book of Revelation. With that being said, in the hope of finding our answers we will first turn to God's Inspired Word in the book of Daniel. Noting first that scripture only speaks of kingdoms that at one time or another dominated over Israel in one way or another; though certainly other nations are mentioned.
At the time that Daniel recieved the vision of the beasts, Egypt and Assyria were the two prior kingdoms who had dominated over Israel, with Babylon being the dominent kingdom in the time of Daniel. Nebuchadnezzar died in 562 B.C. The beginning of Belshazzar's service as coregent with Nabonidus in 553 B.C. became important because it was in that year that Daniel had the first of his 4 visions in Daniel chapter 7. Actually Daniel chapters 7 and 8 both occur in the time period between Daniel chapter 4 and 5, and are out of chronological order for whatever reasons Daniel had for doing so. The fact is that Daniel had recieved the revelation of chapter 7 and 8 before he came to Belshazzar's feast, where at that time Babylon fell (chapter 5).
In Dan. 7-1-7 we read that the 1st beast was compared to a lion having the wings of an eagle (v.4). The 2nd beast as like a bear (v.5). The 3rd beast resembled a leopard with 4 wings and 4 heads (v.6). The 4th beast was different from all the other beasts, and it had ten horns (v.7). Then in the following verse 8, we read that as Daniel was considering the horns, there then came up among them "another little horn," an 11th horn coming out from the ten horns. "Before whom there were three of the first horns plucked up by the roots; and, behold, in this horn (were) eyes like the eyes of man, and a mouth speaking great things." It is here in Dan. 7-8 that the "little horn" coming forth from the ten horns of the "4th beast", believed to be Rome, is seen the final beast kingdom to come. This kingdom is seen in Dan. 2-41-43;7-8;8-11-14,26;9-27;11-36 to 12-13; Rev. 13-1-18;17-1-18;18-1-24.
The 4 beasts given in Daniel represent "kingdoms" and "kings" who would be ruling "when the prophecy would come to fulfillment." Though certainly many kings can come in an on-going kingdom. The 1st kingdom which was like a lion and an eagle represented Babylon, with its king being Nebuchadnezzar. The 2nd kingdom represented the Medo-Persian Empire seen in Da. 8-20. Its ruler king Darius (Dan. 5-31) which conquered Babylon in 539 B.C. (Daniel chapter 5). The 3rd kingdom represented Greece, its king being Alexander (Dan. 8-21). When Alexander died in 323 B.C., the Empire was divided among his four generals, represented by "the 4 heads and 4 wings" seen on the beast leopard. Lysimachus, its king over this divided kingdom was given Thrace and Bithynia. Cassander, its king was given Macedonia and Greece. Seleucus its king was given Syria, Babylonia, and land to the east. And Ptolemy its king was given Egypt, Palestine and Arabia Petrea. The 4th beast kingdom is not named, but most scholars see it was historically the Roman Empire. Officially, its first sole ruler/king at the time was Julius Caesar (100-44 B.C.).
As noted, scripture only speaks specifically of "king/kingdoms" that at one time or another concerned Israel in one way or another. And here in Daniel it begins with the kingdom of Babylon and its ruler/king. Now taking the others not mentioned in Daniel into account, these would be 1. Egypt, in the time of their captivity and Exodus. Since the king ruling at the time is unsure, he will be called "king Pharaoh" of the kingdom of Egypt. 2. The kingdom of Assyria with its ruler/king at the time being king Shalmaneser V. And thus far in Daniel as the vision of the beasts and the horns are mentioned, we see that the "horns" not only represent "kings" but "kingdoms" also when these prophecies would come to fulfillment. Therefore the term "horns" spoken of in Daniel represent not only "kings" but "kingdoms" also unless the texts speak otherwise.
It is important at this time to bring the king/kingdoms mentioned in scripture forward here. 1.Kingdom, Egypt-king Pharaoh. 2.Assyria-king Shalmaneser V. 3. Babylon-king Nebuchadnezzar. 4. Medo-Persia-king Darius. 5. Greece-king Alexander the Great.(The divided Greek kingdom) 6.Thrace and Bithynia-king Lysimachus. 7. Macedonia and Greece-king Cassander. 8. Syria and Babylonia-king Seleucus. 9. Egypt, Palestine and Arabia Petrea-king Ptolemy. 10. Roman Empire-king Julius Caesar.
Now here we see ten horn king/kingdoms brought forth, where only eight can be seen in Daniel's vision. And it is here in Dan. 7-7 that we sit when Daniel sees the vision of the 4th beast Rome having "ten horns." The ten horns represent the prior king/kingdoms as well as the king/kingdom of Rome. Representing that they are all under Rome's submission and dominion."---behold a fourth beast (Rome),---diverse from all the beasts that (were) before it; and it had ten horns." The kingdom of Rome seen coming out of the 4 horn king/kingdoms of Alexander's divided kingdom seen in Dan. 8-9-10. Where the final beast kingdom to come would come forth from "Rome," the "little horn" having dominion over all the earth seen in Dan. 7-8.
In Dan. 7-15-16, Daniel not understanding the vision asked one standing by the meaning of the vision. Daniel was told in verses 17-18 that these 4 beasts are 4 kingdoms that would rise from the earth. In verses 19-20, Daniel wanted to know the meaning of the 4th beast which was different from all the others. And about the ten horns on its head, and about the other little horn that came up from the others. Daniel is given this explanation in Dan. 7-23-28. "The fourth beast is a fourth kingdom that will appear on the earth. It will be different from all the other kingdoms and will devour the whole earth.---And the ten horns out of this kingdom (are) ten kings (that) shall arise;*---." We note here that this was "prophecy" yet to be fulfilled concerning these ten horn/kings that "shall arise" seen upon the 4th beast said to be Rome. And these ten horn/kings would be the "kings" of the 10 "kingdoms" listed above. The "kings" of the 10 kingdoms that would include Rome when that fulfillment would come. These 10 horns are said to be "kings" here in verse 24, yes, of "kingdoms" to the time of Rome. Then we are given the prophecy of the final kingdom to come "after Rome." The kingdom of the feet and ten toes, the divided kingdom seen in Dan. 2-41-43. The one spoken of in Dan. 7-8,20,21, here in verses 24-25, and etc.
"And the ten horns out of this kingdom (Rome are) ten kings (of kingdoms that) shall arise*; and another* shall rise* after them;---." This is the "little horn king/kingdom" seen in Dan. 7-8,20,21 being spoken of here in these verses. "---and he shall be diverse (different) from the first (king/kingdom), and he shall subdue three kings (king/kingdoms). And he shall speak great words against the Most High, and shall wear out (persecute) the saints of the Most High, and think to change times and laws; and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time" (Dan. 12-7,11,12; Rev. 11-2-3; 13-5).
So thus far we have seen that in following the texts closely, we can determine the meaning of what the horns are to represent. They are seen and represent kings "and" kingdoms. This understanding is vital to the proper meaning of what the texts speak concerning these prophecies given us in such a way.
In continuing in Dan. 8-9-12, we read; "And out of one of them," that being from out of or from the 4 divided Greek horn king/kingdoms. And like the other horns, this "little horn" represents a king/kingdom also. So here we can see that this little horn king/kingdom comes out from the 4 existing kingdoms. This "little horn" is not a "king" believed to be Antiochus Epiphanes IV, nor is he the "little horn" seen in Dan. 7-8. This is a king/kingdom growing out from among the 4 existing kingdoms that were at the time. The little horn which "waxed exceeding great toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the pleasant land." As noted, most see this "litle horn" in Dan. 7-8 and here in 8-9-12 as being Antiochus Epiphanes fulfilling this prophecy in history, but he was not. He fulfilled the prophecy of Dan. 11-21-35 given there in history, but that is all.
The ram, the Medo-Persian Empire went largely "to the west" and not "to the east" in its conquests of territory and dominion. The goat, Greece, on the other hand came "from the west" attacking the Middle East and beyond. Alexander's conquests were always "east" of Greece. However the "little horn king/kingdom" in Dan. 8-9 began its power to "the south" and to "the east" and toward the pleasant land, being further east, the holy land. Therefore this indicates that the little horn king/kingdom would lie somewhere "north and west" of the areas it would come against. Antiochus Epiphanes' kingdom lay "north and east" and not "west" of the areas he would come against seen in history. His kingdom lay "northeast" in Syria, and he attacked to the "south" and "west" of Syria, and not "south" and "east."
Also there is a distinction between the "little horn" mentioned here in Dan. 8-9 and the "little horn" of Dan. 7-8. In Dan. 7-8 we see the "little horn" coming out of the "4th beast kingdom". Although not mentioned, most agree this 4th beast kingdom to be Rome. So here we have a great problem. How can the "little horn king/kingdom" in Dan. 7-8 be Antiochus Epiphanes, where he is seen to come out of the divided "3rd kingdom of Greece" and not the 4th kingdom said to be Rome? We ask, how can the "little horn king/kingdom" in Dan. 7-8 AND in Dan. 8-9 be Antiochus Epiphanes believed to be the one who fulfilled "this prophecy"? Scripture clearly shows this cannot be. He is neither the "little horn" in Dan. 7-8 nor is he the "little horn" in Dan. 8-9. Antiochus Epiphanes came out of the divided kingdom of the 3rd beast kingdom of Greece.
When reading Dan. 8-19-22, we see Gabriel's interpretation fulfilled and confirmed in history. We see these verses referred to Medo-Persia and Greece. But the passage of Dan. 8-23-26 have been the subject of different opinions and interpretations. Some see it as being fulfilled by Antiochus Epiphanes while others hold to a future fulfillment by the final coming beast kingdom. Daniel was told in 8-17 that the vision of chapter 8 concerns "the distant future". It is said "at the time of the end (shall be) the vision."
Jesus points us to this very prophecy in Matthew 24 concerning the end times. He said, "When you see the abomination spoken of in Daniel---." This was said by Jesus nearly 200 years "after" the events of Antiochus Epiphanes. By these very words Jesus is confirming that the prophecy "had yet to be fulfilled." So though some, or many that may believe that Epiphanes completed the prophecy, "the little horn" of Dan. 7-8 and 8-9 are in error. If we are to believe Jesus' word, the word of God, then we can believe that this prophecy in Daniel has yet to reach its fulfillment, among the other reasons given here.
The final vision given Daniel was recorded in Daniel chapters 10-12. What is recorded in Dan. 11-2-35 are the major events, with the major rulers of the Persian Empire and from there continuing to the major events of the Alexandrian period, ending with the prophecy many agree to be Antiochus Epiphanes from 175-164 B.C. All said as having been fulfilled in history by these rulers and events. Antiochus Epiphanes appears in Dan. 11-21-35. The attempt of Antiochus to destroy the Jewish religion was described by Daniel in these passages. We read in verse 35, "Some of the wise will stumble, so that they may be refined, purified and made spotless until the time of the end, for it will still come at the appointed time." The reference to "the time of the end" referred to the remaining prophecy beginning in verse 36 to 45. And this was not the fulfillment of the reign of Antiochus Epiphanes as many believe. Antiochus, as history records, died shortly after fulfilling Dan. 11-21-35 in the year 164 B.C. He did not fulfill any of the events described in these verses of Dan. 11-36-45.
When Antiochus Epiphanes became king, he was but another king of the prior 4 established kingdoms. So we have seen that when we strictly follow the order of direction given as the "little horn" grew in power, we see it does not fit the activities taken by Antiochus Epiphanes. The bibical evidence given here tells us that the "little horn king/kingdom" of Dan. 7-7 and 8-9 was to be Rome.
In the 6th century B.C. the city of Rome was just a small fortress town in central Italy, but in a short time would begin to expand her territories. This represents "the little horn" of Dan. 8-9 that started small, but would grow in power toward the "south." After Alexander's death in 323 B.C., his 4 generals struggled for control of his Empire. Cassander gained control of Greece and Macedonia, Lysimachus ruled Thrace and a large part of Asia Minor. Seleucus, Syris, Babylon and much of the Middle East (all of Asia except Asia Minor and Palestine). Ptolemy controlled Egypt and Palestine. By about 275 B.C., after years of warfare, the Empire had been carved into "three large kingdoms" ruled by the descendants of these general/kings.
During those times the Romans had expanded their territories in the Italian peninsula as far "south" as the city states of the Greek kingdom. The Greek kingdom given to Cassander of Greece and Macedonia in western Europe. In the following years (264-201 B.C.) Rome fought a series of long wars with Carthage. The Romans finally defeated them in 202 B.C. Rome now had dominance as far "south" as Carthage and beyond in North Africa. After adding Spain in the north to her conquests, Rome then turned toward "the east." To the east of Rome lay Thrace, Macedonia, Greece and her city states.
After Antiochus became ruler in 169 B.C., Antiochus invaded Egypt for a second time but was not successful. The Roman fleet had come to Alexandria at the request of the Ptolemies (Dan. 11-30). In that year the Romans won a victory over Macedonia who lay "east" of Rome expanding her territories to the east. By 146 B.C. Macedonia was officially made a province of the Roman Empire. Thus expanding her territories "to the east" as the context of Dan. 8-9 reveals. At this time Rome had gained power and dominance to the "south" and to the "east" as far as the Mediterranean Sea. Where further "east" lay the Middle East where the pleasant land lay.
By 129 B.C., Rome created the province of Asia, where it then embarked on further expansion in the Middle East of Asia Minor. By 49 B.C. Rome's rule extended far beyond the Mediterranean basin. At this time we see the "little horn" Rome fulfilling the prophecy seen in Dan. 7-7 and 8-9. "Out of one of them (the divided Greek kingdom) came another horn (the Roman kingdom), which started small but grew in power to the south and to the east and toward the pleasant land." During the 1st century A.D., much of England and Whales was added, and during the 2nd century Romania also. Here we see "it grew until it reached the host of the heavens,---." (Dan. 8-10). The reference given here is it grew as far north as England and beyond from which would come the Lord's host, his saints. Where from there would come the final kingdom of the feet and ten toes made of iron and clay. The divided kingdom seen in Dan. 7-7-8,20,21,23-25;8-11-14;9-27;11-36 to 12-13. And this final kingdom would fulfill the prophecy of the book of Revelation. This kingdom being the beast of the sea and beast of the earth seen in Rev. 13-1-18.
When the birth of Christianity came through our Lord Jesus Christ, Christianity spread quickly throughout the Roman Empire in spite of persecution. By the 4th century Christianity had become the state religion of the entire Roman Empire from England to Asia. Christianity became an organized church with a hierachy closely identified with the Roman Empire, with great power in governmental and civil matters. From the 11th century on Christendom ruled from the church of Rome and extended over the entire continent. From Iceland to Italy and from Sweden to Spain. By the time of the 17th century, most rulers were convinced that the key to stable government was control of both religion and politics. But this only caused chaos and wars throughout Europe. This brought about the "Age of Revolutions" (1776-1848). The age of revolution that brought about the birth of the United States.
This is the history of the "little horn", the kingdom of Rome, the iron legs, the "Holy Roman Empire" who would fulfill the prophecy of Dan. 8-9-10a. Daniel 8-10b-14 and other scriptures relate to the final kingdom of the feet and ten toes of iron and clay. The divided kingdom who would come forth and fulfill his part in the prophecy "in the latter part of its reign." The kingdom that would come from the iron legs of the Holy Roman Empire, from England, various parts of Europe, and elsewhere of the Roman Empire's kingdom.
Going to Rev. 17-7 we read, "I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns." The angel begins to explain further in Rev. 17-9-10a what the "heads" represent. "The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sitteth. And they are seven kings;---." We see here that the seven mountains "are" or are to "represent" seven kings. So we see these mountains are not to mean or be taken literally as being heaps of earth or rocks, but "kings." The word "mountain" is the Greek "oros" and is often used in scripture as a figure for a "kingdom". For example, it is used of ancient Babylon in Jer. 51-25, and of Christ's kingdom in Dan. 2-35. So we see here the "7 heads" are to represent "7 kings and 7 mountains", and these mountains represent "kingdoms," and not literal soil and rocks. Therefore the 7 heads represent here 7 king/kingdoms. Continuing with verse 10, "five are fallen, and one is, (and) the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space" (time).
Now that we can see these are to represent 7 king/kingdoms, we can know who the five that had fallen are, and the one who "is" at the time of John's revelation. These would be; 1. Egypt, 2. Assyria, 3. Babylon, 4. Medo-Persia, 5. Greece, 6. Rome. And the 7th, the one to come is seen in Rev. 13-1-10, the beast of the sea. The preterists that hold that the seven hill/mountains are literal hill/mounts on which the woman sits, they say to be Jerusalem are in error. They also take these 7 hill/mounts somehow to represent Rome. (???). Now here they also represent "kings" as the text tells us. In taking this literally as they do, how can a "city" said to be Jerusalem "sit on" 7 kings? They cannot literalize one (hill/mounts) and spiritualize the other (literal kings), as the text clearly shows. The text has to be taken either spiritually or figuratively in the lanquage given there. Much more could be said here, but I leave it at that.
We read in Rev. 17-11, "And the beast that was,---." Now clearly we see here that this refers to a king/kingdom, but the word used, "the beast," thus referring to a "kingdom." We continue reading, "---and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven (beast kingdoms),---." So here we see this beast king/kingdom that was and is not, called "he" and a "beast" is the eighth. To mean "he" is the 7th "and" eighth also. He is the 7th and 8th beast king/kingdom to come, "and will go into perdition" (destruction). This 7th and 8th beast kingdom, seen as one here in this verse is the beast of the sea and beast of the earth seen in Rev. 13-1-18. Now how can Rome be this 7th-8th beast king/kingdom be he that fulfilled the prophecy of Revelation in 70 A.D.? We have seen in scripture from Exodus to the time of Rome only "6" king/kingdoms had come against Israel/Jerusalem. If Rome was the fulfillment of the prophecies given us in the book of Revelation as the preterists claim, then the scriptures are in error. For we see here they speak of yet a 7th/8th kingdom to come. I for one will stand by God's Inspired Word.
The 7th kingdom the beast of the sea is political, the 8th kingdom the beast of the earth called the false prophet in Rev. 16-13, also "exerciseth all the power of the first beast" (Rev. 13-12). The beast kingdom of the sea and of the earth is political and religious in its nature and makeup, are part of each other and seen as one in Rev. 17-11. Thus the different descriptions given it, a "beast", a "false prophet" (Rev. 16-13), the "great city", the "great whore" that sits upon many waters (Rev. 17-1). The "woman" who sits upon the beast (Rev. 17-7). "Mystery Babylon the Great, the mother of harlots and abominations of the earth." The "woman which thou sawest is that great city, which has a kingdom* over the kings of the earth" (Rev. 17-18).
In my article, "An Apologetic on Dispensationalism" (Nov. 16,06), I gave scriptural evidence that rejects the teaching of a 1000 year earthly reign with Christ. I also rejected the preterist view as Rome being the fulfillment of prophecy in 70 A.D. It was asked in that article; "--concerning the book of Revelation and Ezekiel chapters 38-39, "Gog and Magog," how could this have been fulfilled in 70 A.D.? For scripture states in Revelation chapter 20 that Satan is to be bound in "the Abyss until" the time of the "1st resurrection" expires. He cannot fulfill the prophecy of Revelation, Ezekiel chapters 38-39 and other prophecies related until then. This time being the heavenly reign of Christ with Old and New Testament saints that died for the testimony of God and Christ. Clearly showing this time to be during the time of the church age. So whether one agrees here to a 1000 or 2000 year heavenly reign, Satan cannot be loosed out of the Abyss to fulfill the prophecy. Yet that loosing is seen in chapter 9 of Revelation in order to fulfill the prophecy. To fulfill the very prophecy that the preterists maintain was fulfilled in 70 A.D. Scripture clearly shows this cannot be." I closed then as I close now, I leave it for the readers who seriously seek God's Truth of scripture to decide. Again I wish to deeply thank Planetpreterist for allowing my articles to be presented to the viewing audience that visit their site in the search for God's Truth.
God bless, Twospirits. Website address;http://www.twospiritshendora.com."
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Re: The Great Debate: Who is the Beast of Revelation? (Score: 1)
 by FireByNite on Thursday, December 21 @ 07:20:38 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | The systematic expounder of Scripture doctrine is expected to set forth, in clear outline and well-defined terms, such teachings as have certain warrant in the word of God. He must not import into the text of Scripture the ideas of later times, or build upon any words or passages a dogma which they do not legitimately teach. The apologetic and dogmatic methods of interpretation which proceed from the standpoint of a formulated creed, and appeal to all words and sentiments scattered here and there in the Scriptures, which may by any possibility lend support to a foregone conclusion, have been condemned already...By such methods many false notions have been urged upon men as matters of faith. But no man has a right to foist into his expositions of Scripture his own dogmatic conceptions, or those of others, and then insist that these are an essential part of divine revelation. Only that which is clearly read therein, or legitimately proved thereby, can be properly held as scriptural doctrine -- Milton Terry
Terry's exhortation is ignored in this article. |
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Re: The Great Debate: Who is the Beast of Revelation? (Score: 1)
by sidwms on Saturday, October 11 @ 22:19:06 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | To: Chris Charles;
In AD 1680, the Matthew Poole Commentary described you (personally) as, "Satan Loosed A Little."
This means that you (personally) are "The Second Dark Ages."
Christian love (agape) is telling people, "What they do not want to hear."
Please believe me, this message is sent in Extreme Love (agape), not to you only, but also to the viewers.
So then, I was born, and raised up in the faith, in the Millennium (1859-1959); on the other hand, you have been raised up in the Second Dark Ages (Satan Losed A Little).
You have never heard the Bible message, as stated by the angel of Jesus; "deceived all nations" (Rev 20.4).
A) You have recited the Pope's interpretation.
B) You have denied the Protestant interpretation.
C) You have deniied the Restoration Movement interpretation.
D) I am a historian; you are not.
The Bible message, and Protestant, and Restoration Movement teaching have been banned since 1948, when they fouded the World Council of Churches in Amsterdam, Holland.
The Protestant writers wrote of your lifetime, "Satan will try everything possible because he knows he only has a short time" (Rev 20.3).
The "Fall of the Beast (Papacy) in One Hour" Rev 18.2, 8, 10) and Rev 10.7, 11.15; and Rev 16.10-11, was identified by William Hurte, 1889, and B. W. Johnson,1891, and Halley's Bible Handbook, 1945.
And, Halley's book was the last one about, "Jesus lives today on earth" (until my books).
1948 was the line of demarcation. Protestants and Restoration Movement members (like me) believed in, "The Living God!"
Since 1948, only the Pope's "dead god" has been taught.
The "Death of God Theology" was introduced into the Bible Colleges in the 1960s.
Also, your, "God is a Republican" was introduced at that time.
History and the Bible confirm all these statements.
The "fall of Pope Pius IX, in 1870, is in all encyclopedias. See: "Italy."
It is even in, "A Dictionary of the Popes", J.N.D. Kelley, Oxford Press.
It is also in, "The New Catholic Encyclopedia."
The Restoration Movement taught this fact in my youth, 1943.
You have been "taken" by the sins of the fathers.
God has blinded you.
But "Revival 2015" is hastening on.
Do you have the Seven Spirits of God; or, the Mark of the Beast in the Forehead (Mind)?
In love and hope,
sidwms
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