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God is the biggest failure in the Bible...the reason you've never thought that is because He never said He was one.
-- Kenneth Copeland, "Praise-a-thon", on TBN
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by Samuel Frost
I have recently come out of a certain e-mail group, mostly Reformed, that has left me feeling quite depressed. The last few nights have been restless and sleepless. The issues revolved around the alleged support that Planet Preterist has given to the Emergent Church movement. A call was issued by one brother to separate from those who are "complicit" with Planet Preterist. Basically, this means that anyone who is a columnist, who supports, or who speaks at Truth Voice conferences is in "complicity with error" and helps "prop up" a known promoter of a "false gospel."
What this also means is that anyone who associates with a person that does one or all of these three things is in complicity with error and might as well be a promoter of a false gospel. Let me put this in plain terms: since I, Samuel Frost, write articles for Planet Preterist and speak at Truth Voice conferences (like the one coming up in April), then I am also promoting a false gospel because Planet Preterist promotes a false gospel. And, if anyone continues to support or write for or with me and Reign of Christ Ministries, then they too are in league with promoting a false gospel. Get that? You read it correctly. You can pick your jaw up from the floor now.
Click here to read the entire article
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Samuel Frost is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com. Samuel is a MA Pastor of Christ Covenant Church in Tampa Florida. He is the author of Misplaced Hope and Exegetical Essays on the Resurrection of the Dead, both available in the PlanetPreterist bookstore.
View Samuel Frost archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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Average Score: 4.11
Votes: 9
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Re: Observations (Score: 1)
 by Virgil on Tuesday, November 28 @ 13:41:34 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Sam, I really appreciate and admire your independent and humble spirit in which you wrote this article. It is obvious those issues are close to your heart and matter to you. This is a long read, so I've only read the first part of the article, and my comments below are only related to that part.
The Scriptures do not leave the end of the story with us positing universal salvation for every human being. That was not God's goal.
While I am not a Universalist, I am not sure sure that the conclusion to the story is as clear as that. I still have questions and often wonder what it means when I read that "God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of THE truth." - 1 Tim. 2; there seems to be at least a remote suggestion that God's goal was in a sense to save all mankind; I've also pointed out before God's promise made to Eve that is largely ignored by Christian theologians.
Also the ontological aspects of humanity seem to be a lot more complex than we think, with mankind often being presented with choices that go beyond black and white, right or wrong, all or none, right or left, etc. Our existence is therefore largely defined not by the way we are born but by choices we make; choices indicating a disconnect from traditional thinking in that we DO have a choice, but ultimately perhaps the choice is only relevant to those who end up in God's presence (with the rest being ultimately annihilated).
Anyways, I don't want to take away from the substance of your article and get sidetracked with conversations we've had many times before. So far at least you have demonstrated that there are enough disagreements among preterists to amaze us all, yet we still talk to each other (with the exception of a handful of people), share conversations, a beer and even actually continue to learn from each other despite all those differences. I have learned a whole lot of stuff about Calvinism from you, stuff that I would otherwise not be aware of. I am hoping you've also learned something from me.
Also, regarding the "who is in, and who is out" question, it is rather interesting that almost all of those (and there are only 5 or so individuals I can count) who are drawing the lines now have had some sort of a PERSONAL disagreement with the ones who are now supposedly "out" - be it rejected books for publication, speaking engagements, etc. That is not just a coincidence, and it is deplorable to see people who perhaps have been genuinely hurt by others (or even by myself) take their revenge to such a never-before-seen level.
I will read the rest tonight and give you some feedback :) |
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We must all hang together or assuredly we shall all hang separately (Score: 1)
 by JL on Tuesday, November 28 @ 14:24:54 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | There's more going on than just that. They keep lumping Max & Tim King with Virgil & Terry Hall. Sometimes they make noises about Arminians and their false Gospel and ask each other why they don't give Don Preston the same treatment.
I have not seen nearly the venom spewed at the Reformed Universalists or the Reformed Emergents. The issues are not really emergent or universalism, but that a portion of the Reformed side of Preterism wants a complete divorce from the CoC side of Preterism.
If they are truly against universalism and postmodernism, they need to clean their own house and leave our house alone. We've got enough trouble without them.
JL
PS. I'm not suggesting they run off the Reformed Universalists and Reformed Emergents. (That's none of my business. They've made it clear that I'm not their brother. They need to leave my brothers alone.) I'm suggesting they shut-up and quit trying to usurp what they did not earn and have no part of. |
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- by PeytonLucy on Wednesday, November 29 @ 10:00:46 PST
- by Virgil on Wednesday, November 29 @ 10:27:36 PST
- by Islamaphobe on Wednesday, November 29 @ 12:18:22 PST
- by Virgil on Wednesday, November 29 @ 13:11:05 PST
- by PeytonLucy on Wednesday, November 29 @ 20:49:10 PST
- by Virgil on Thursday, November 30 @ 10:09:48 PST
- by PeytonLucy on Thursday, November 30 @ 19:43:00 PST
- by Virgil on Thursday, November 30 @ 20:03:43 PST
- by PeytonLucy on Thursday, November 30 @ 21:22:17 PST
- by Virgil on Friday, December 01 @ 06:22:08 PST
- by PeytonLucy on Friday, December 01 @ 12:06:26 PST
- by Virgil on Friday, December 01 @ 12:38:12 PST
- by PeytonLucy on Friday, December 01 @ 16:11:09 PST
- by chrisliv on Friday, December 01 @ 16:52:38 PST
- by PeytonLucy on Monday, December 04 @ 07:06:08 PST
- by chrisliv on Monday, December 04 @ 11:40:42 PST
- by PeytonLucy on Tuesday, December 05 @ 08:55:45 PST
- by chrisliv on Tuesday, December 05 @ 13:29:23 PST
- by JL on Wednesday, November 29 @ 10:49:19 PST
- by PeytonLucy on Wednesday, November 29 @ 20:06:48 PST
- by JL on Thursday, November 30 @ 09:48:07 PST
- by JL on Thursday, November 30 @ 13:51:15 PST
- by JL on Wednesday, December 06 @ 15:32:07 PST
Re: Observations (Score: 1)
 by mazuur on Tuesday, November 28 @ 14:44:45 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | "The reign of the Death brought about death (separation) in a covenantal sense (but a very real, ontological sense). This set into motion a law, if you will: all that are born in the world are born separated from God. The reign of the Death meant that all that are born in the world are separated from God and nothing can be done about that situation. Man was born "dead", lived on earth as "dead", physically died "dead", and resided in the Hades as dead. Nothing he could do, or did do, could eradicate the tyrannical hold and rule of the Death. He was "dead" (under the Death's reign) from womb to tomb and beyond. Now, however, "the Death" no longer has this tyrannical power. Now, a man is born "dead", but has faith in the Cross and is "made alive" in the presence of God (call it being "born again"). This is not possible for any man if the Death still reigns. Being born again or regenerated by the Spirit was impossible while the Death reigned. Now that the Death's reign is completely swallowed up for all mankind, God can call those "outside" to come "inside". "
Sam, is it possible since "the death" was reigning in the world that those who were born and died, but never sinned (a baby who lived for 5 days) were, at the resurrection (AD70), resurrected unto life? And now the babies who live and die after 5 days can immediately be called into God's presence.
If Christ came to do away with the reign of death (doing away with what kept man separated from God), and could now call those "outside" to come "inside", could He not now call the baby who never sinned to come in?
It's just like those in OT times who placed their faith in God (Abraham), yet they still looked to the Heavenly City which they received in AD70. Prior to AD 70, since death was still reigning, Abraham had to dwell in Hades Paradise waiting for the Resurrection (the defeat of the reign of "the death").
Am I making sense?
At the minimum, babies today who have never sinned, since Jesus has done way with the "reign of death" as you say, they should be able to enter His presence upon death. yes?
Unless, you are still holding onto some "sin nature" thing too.
mazuur
By the way, excellent article! |
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- by Virgil on Tuesday, November 28 @ 15:50:12 PST
- by mazuur on Tuesday, November 28 @ 17:58:42 PST
- by Virgil on Tuesday, November 28 @ 18:32:56 PST
- by mazuur on Tuesday, November 28 @ 18:38:17 PST
- by Virgil on Tuesday, November 28 @ 19:00:01 PST
- by Sam on Wednesday, November 29 @ 08:48:03 PST
- by mazuur on Wednesday, November 29 @ 09:16:40 PST
- by Parker on Wednesday, November 29 @ 18:03:05 PST
- by davo on Tuesday, November 28 @ 19:13:43 PST
Re: Observations (Score: 1)
 by chrisliv on Tuesday, November 28 @ 15:01:01 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Well, Sam,
It's just manipulation, by holding themselves hostage from guys like you, as they demand a ransom of your behavior.
Why did you lose sleep?
It sounds like JL may be onto something, about it being a power struggle between semi-Preterist circles.
Are you going to be blackmailed?
Peace to you,
C. Livingstone |
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- by JL on Tuesday, November 28 @ 19:27:46 PST
- by davo on Tuesday, November 28 @ 20:42:15 PST
- by chrisliv on Tuesday, November 28 @ 21:16:15 PST
Re: Observations (Score: 1)
by Basementman on Tuesday, November 28 @ 15:06:05 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Sam,
Ditto, Amen and Ditto. I enjoy reading your writings. I read Planet Preterist mostly everyday quietly in the background. This is the first time I even signed in to comment. I just want to let you know there are many like me in the the background just soaking up what you write and learning from it. Thanks Virgil for letting us come on without having to sign in and for having guys like Sam, Tim Martin and others. BY the way Virgil, though theologically I am more like Sam I also enjoy many of the things you write.
Tony Pomales |
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- by Virgil on Tuesday, November 28 @ 16:41:01 PST
- by Batman on Tuesday, November 28 @ 17:09:42 PST
- by Virgil on Tuesday, November 28 @ 20:09:44 PST
- by Batman on Tuesday, November 28 @ 20:23:55 PST
- by Virgil on Tuesday, November 28 @ 20:29:56 PST
- by leslie on Wednesday, November 29 @ 08:16:54 PST
- by Missina on Wednesday, November 29 @ 02:42:43 PST
- by Virgil on Wednesday, November 29 @ 10:31:17 PST
- by leslie on Thursday, November 30 @ 08:11:01 PST
- by Virgil on Thursday, November 30 @ 08:47:22 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Thursday, November 30 @ 13:15:17 PST
Thanks Sam (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Tuesday, November 28 @ 18:53:03 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | | Wow Sam, what an amazing article. I was very blessed by it. I love ya Sam !!! =) Thanks for EVERYTHING. Virgil, thanks for putting me on the payroll - HAHA - Just Mess'n. |
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- by MichaelB on Tuesday, November 28 @ 20:18:02 PST
- by Virgil on Tuesday, November 28 @ 20:22:48 PST
- by JL on Wednesday, November 29 @ 11:29:56 PST
- by Mick on Wednesday, November 29 @ 14:14:52 PST
Re: Observations (Score: 1)
 by davo on Tuesday, November 28 @ 19:20:29 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) |
Excellent article Sam. Though I might personally come to some differing conclusions than yourself on some of the things you touched on, it is great to have an open forum where such things can be shared in a preteristic framework [thanks PP].
davo |
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Re: Observations (Score: 1)
by Ivan on Tuesday, November 28 @ 19:50:50 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | | Many thanks for your article, Sam. One point puzzles me: I am wondering if too much is being made of the presence of the definite article in front of "death" and "life" given that it is common in Greek for abstract nouns to have the definite article without intending a reference to some particular and without the need for the definite article to be translated. |
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- by Virgil on Tuesday, November 28 @ 20:32:03 PST
- by Jer on Wednesday, November 29 @ 06:20:00 PST
- by Virgil on Wednesday, November 29 @ 07:17:09 PST
- by Jer on Wednesday, November 29 @ 07:49:55 PST
- by Virgil on Wednesday, November 29 @ 08:00:37 PST
- by Jer on Wednesday, November 29 @ 08:29:27 PST
- by Virgil on Wednesday, November 29 @ 09:46:14 PST
- by Jer on Wednesday, November 29 @ 10:18:26 PST
- by Sam on Wednesday, November 29 @ 08:40:25 PST
Re: Observations (Score: 1)
by Starlight on Tuesday, November 28 @ 21:17:47 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Sam, said.
“I would rather side with those who let me proclaim my own views with thoughtful criticism than with others who let me proclaim my views only on the pretext that I "side" with them or else.”
“I am a preterist. I believe in doctrinal changes. I believe in paradigms shifts. I believe in following the Truth against the Majority.
I am a "heretic" according to the Council of Nicea and the Westminster Confession of Faith.
So be it”
Or in other famous words,
“give me liberty or give me death”
But not sin death :=)
The end of the reign of sin death is just too good to be true.
There is something in us that declares that we are not worthy of such good things.
It eats at us and we beat ourselves because of our sin.
Hoping to free ourselves from that wretched man that I am.
But I tell you a mystery, we shall all be changed!
Thanks be to God!
He gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
Also thanks to you Sam for this work.
I have been blessed tremendously by your “heart poured” rendition.
Blessings in Christ “brother”
Norm
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Re:man born dead? (Score: 1)
 by Mick on Wednesday, November 29 @ 14:18:47 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Sam,
Thank you for you thoughtful and insightful article. I appreciate your scholarship and I love your heart, which is revealed in your article.
In your article you say, “Man was born "dead", lived on earth as "dead", physically died "dead", and resided in the Hades as dead…”
If man was born dead under the old covenantal system how can Paul say, “Romans 7.9 (ESV) 9I was once alive apart from the law, but when the commandment came, sin came alive and I died.”
I would propose that it was possible to be born alive under the “The reign of the Death” until the awareness of the law brought the sin and the death. This makes the concept of being born again even more meaningful, since even under the reign of death people could experience life. As a result, Jesus and the NT speaker’s audiences would be familiar with the idea of being alive before God, at some point in there life, and needing to be reborn to reacquire that life that was lost. Once the law was removed with the Parousia of the messiah then the reign of the life was ushered in allowing a person to experience the holy righteous and good commandment (Romans 7.12) without having to experience the death.
I look forward to you helping my understanding
Mick
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- by Sam on Wednesday, November 29 @ 15:59:43 PST
- by Mick on Wednesday, November 29 @ 19:20:48 PST
- by Mick on Wednesday, November 29 @ 20:05:50 PST
- by chef on Thursday, November 30 @ 04:31:20 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Thursday, November 30 @ 06:23:16 PST
- by chef on Thursday, November 30 @ 08:45:01 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Thursday, November 30 @ 09:03:31 PST
- by DavidF on Monday, December 04 @ 11:57:58 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Monday, December 04 @ 13:53:48 PST
The Church of Christ connection (Score: 1)
by JL on Wednesday, December 06 @ 07:24:25 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | I had considered providing this link to Roderick's web site to show his general animosity to the Church of Christ when I first posted above.
But I didn't and Roderick quickly blocked it anyway. Several people have asked about it so here's Google's cached version.
JL |
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- by JL on Wednesday, December 06 @ 09:56:31 PST
- by JL on Wednesday, December 06 @ 11:44:07 PST
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