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I got to tell you this quickly, just before we go. I had a word of prophecy from Ruth Heflin. You know who Ruth Heflin is? Ruth prophesied over me back in the '70s and everything she said has happened. She's just sent me a word through my wife and said, the Lord spoke to her audibly and said that He is going to appear physically in one of our crusades in the next few months. Yeah. She - I'm telling you! - she said, the Lord spoke to her audibly and said "Tell Benny I'm going to appear physically on the platform in his meeting.
-- Benny Hinn, is Your Day, March 29, 2000
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Preterism: Does Satan Exist Today
Posted on Tuesday, November 28 @ 06:36:41 PST by John |
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kent submitted: "There is something I would like to add to my article Does Satan Exist Today. In the Summer 2006 issue of Fulfilled Magazine, Samuel Front said that God created evil and that evil was in the world before the fall of Adam and Eve. Here are some problems with this.
Calvinist believes that man has a "sinful nature", what kind of nature did Adam and Eve have before the fall? What caused Adam and Eve to eat the fruit? How can Adam and Eve have a "sinful nature" before knowing or having knowledge of good and evil? If all man has a "sinful nature" is it past down after a person is born? Does that make a new born baby lost, because of their "sinful nature"?
John Noe says, "I maintain that Satan's being cast into the "lake of fire" does not necessitate his being annihilated or rendered inoperative in the lives and affairs of humankind." Bro. Noe, what do you do with 1 John 3:4-9. Did Jesus do this or not? If He did, but it didn't last, then Satan is more powerful that God. If He did this and it lasted, then what power does have today? Did Jesus "appeared to destroy the Devil's work" or did he fail? Being a Calvinist, I'll ask you the same questions and Bro. Frost. what kind of nature did Adam and Eve have before the fall? What caused Adam and Eve to eat the fruit? How can Adam and Eve have a "sinful nature" before knowing or having knowledge of good and evil? If all man has a "sinful nature", is it past down after a person is born? Does that make a new born baby lost, because of their "sinful nature"?
William Bell's answer was little on the weak side."
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Re: Does Satan Exist Today (Score: 1)
 by Virgil on Tuesday, November 28 @ 06:40:37 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | | I don't think John Noe is a Calvinist - also, where did William Bell answer to this article, I would really like to read his take on those issues. |
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- by MiddleKnowledge on Tuesday, November 28 @ 17:27:34 PST
- by Virgil on Tuesday, November 28 @ 18:20:07 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Tuesday, November 28 @ 18:33:21 PST
Re: Does Satan Exist Today (Score: 1)
 by Reformer on Tuesday, November 28 @ 08:38:43 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Dear Kent,
Re: 1 John 3:4-9. Some of us just disagree on how this was accomplished and the resultant reality. By comparison, see Heb. 9:26 -- Did Jesus fail? Then why do we still see "sin." And, 2 Tim. 1:10 -- Again, did Jesus fail? Then why do we still see people dying? Obviously, Jesus did not fail. In my opinion, many have just failed to understand the nature of these victories. Dittos with your 1 John 3:4-9 citation.
Blessings,
John Noe
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- by JL on Tuesday, November 28 @ 09:45:03 PST
- by Kent on Tuesday, November 28 @ 13:26:06 PST
Evil before the Fall (Score: 1)
 by JL on Tuesday, November 28 @ 09:44:20 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | This is one of the problems caused by Young-Earth Creationism. It denies the existence of carnivores, animal death, the potential for human death, and all the dangerous forces of creation before the Fall and after the second coming. Before the Fall, the physical creation was very good. After the second coming, the physical creation will be very good. In between, the creation is very bad.
Is the lion a "fallen" creature? It eats meat. It only eats meat. Was it created to eat meat? Or was it created to eat grass and changed after the Fall? And will it be changed back after the second coming?
The Young-Earth Creationist position is the lion was created a grass-eater. The lion became a meat eater at the Fall or after the Flood. After the second-coming, the lion will return to eating grass.
The consistent preterist position is God compares himself to the lion. The lion was created a meat eater. The lion will always be a meat eater. The lion kills. The lion has always killed. The lion will always kill. And God said that is very good.
JL |
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- by chrisliv on Tuesday, November 28 @ 10:24:00 PST
- by JL on Tuesday, November 28 @ 10:31:41 PST
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- by JL on Tuesday, November 28 @ 13:42:27 PST
- by chrisliv on Tuesday, November 28 @ 14:34:05 PST
- by valensname on Tuesday, November 28 @ 19:41:20 PST
- by Starlight on Tuesday, November 28 @ 21:38:51 PST
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- by Starlight on Wednesday, November 29 @ 06:19:13 PST
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Re: Does Satan Exist Today (Score: 1)
by rfwitt (hifive@att.net) on Tuesday, November 28 @ 10:02:29 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; 17 but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely be smortzed."
What's smortzed you ask. What would the word "die" mean to Adam and Eve unless they had seen or experienced something (e.g. animal or plant) dying?
Just some thoughts on the Genesis acount.
Richard Wittemann......
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- by Virgil on Tuesday, November 28 @ 10:50:58 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Tuesday, November 28 @ 17:36:00 PST
- by Virgil on Tuesday, November 28 @ 18:21:45 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Tuesday, November 28 @ 18:35:41 PST
- by davo on Tuesday, November 28 @ 21:06:20 PST
Re: Does Satan Exist Today (Score: 1)
by leslie on Tuesday, November 28 @ 10:06:53 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | I believe that there is a big difference between 'evil'....and 'Sin'... Adam and Eve, at one time did not know the 'difference' between 'good and evil'. They were 'child like'and just 'lived'in 'bliss'. In order for them to stay in that 'child like nature', they were told to stay away from 'a' tree.They did not 'stay' away from 'the tree' and then their 'eyes' were opened The 'Sin', was not knowing the 'difference' between good and evil and 'doing evil things'. The 'Sin', was not obeying The God Head, when He said Not to do 'something'. The Apostle Paul, said that he did not 'know' (about)'Sin', until he knew The Law and 'under The Law'...Paul already knew all about 'good and evil', just not 'Sin'. We 'still' understand (and DO) 'good and evil', but 'The Sin', of me, not 'obeying God' is no more. There is a big difference between doing 'evil'...and 'Sinning' against God... The 'meanings' get pushed together and are looked at 'as' the same...and they are not.
Brother Les |
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- by Kent on Tuesday, November 28 @ 13:09:47 PST
- by leslie on Tuesday, November 28 @ 13:38:31 PST
- by Kent on Thursday, November 30 @ 14:28:08 PST
- by leslie on Monday, December 04 @ 09:08:00 PST
Supralapsarian or Infralapsarian (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Tuesday, November 28 @ 11:16:05 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | | Hi Kent. If you do not mind me commenting on this, since I have Calvinistic tendencies, as far as the Calvinistic view goes, there are a couple schools of thought within the view. Alot would depend on if he (Calvinistic thinker) took a Supralapsarian or Infralapsarian view as to how we would say the fall occurred (and Adam's nature pre-fall). In a nutshell, if you are truly interested you may want to search those terms. There are some good articles on the web regarding this without going into detail here. MB |
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- by Kent on Tuesday, November 28 @ 13:18:54 PST
- by MichaelB on Tuesday, November 28 @ 13:34:13 PST
Re: Does Satan Exist Today (Score: 1)
by Kent on Tuesday, November 28 @ 13:14:52 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | | I would like to add something.
If man has a "sinful nature" and Peter said in 2 Peter 1:4 that they "shall become participants of a divine nature [or, sharers in [the] divine nature], having escaped from the corruption [that is] in [the] world by lust." ALT
When did this happen, 70 AD or still waiting? To some Preterist, this has not happened yet, because they teach that man today has a "sinful nature".
Is it possible to have a "sinful nature" and a "divine nature" existing at the same time? |
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Re: Does Satan Exist Today (Score: 1)
by tom-g on Saturday, December 23 @ 10:08:10 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Hello Kent,
I realize that I am coming into this subject rather late but, after monitoring this website for quite awhile I have just become a member and able to comment.
I have waited this long because I have no desire to engage in frivolous discussions simply for the sake of demonstrating the extent of someone's int elect. I think that all discussions should be both for our own edification and for the edification of the whole Church (The body of Christ).
However, there are some very important issues that impact the foundation of our Christian beliefs, and I think this is one of those issues.
In disquisitions (serious discussions) of every kind, there are certain primary truths and first principles upon which all subsequent conversation depends. When these conversations do not have recourse to those primary truths and first principles it is because of some disorder in the organs of perception of the participants or because of some strong predetermined prejudices or passions. (I do not take credit for these statements, they were made in the Federalist by our founding fathers to convince the people to ratify our Constitution).
Another statement for which I do not take credit, is a definition I recently heard voiced by Alistar Begg having to do with defining Christian theology: Theology is the application of the laws of grammar and logic to the Scriptures.
With these two observations in mind, I would posit that the primary truths involved in this discussion ought to be:
1. Using the scientific process of ratiocination, thus it is first necessary to determine that a problem exists, then it is necessary to exactly identify that problem, then set out on a program to solve that problem
2. The problem set forth in your article has to do with the original nature of Adam. Was Adam (I use the definition of Adam as mankind both male and female) formed from the dust of the earth as a spiritual being or as a natural being?
3. Is it possible to find an answer to this question in Scripture and by applying the laws of grammar and logic, reason a solution to the problem? I am persuaded that the answer is yes.
By the terms natural man and spiritual man I mean those Greek terms used by the Apostle Paul to whom I will appeal for a solution. According to the Scripture the term used to define natural man is Psychekos. The term used to define a spiritual man is Pnevmatikos. What is being contrasted is mankind that have not received the gospel of Christ and mankind who have received the gospel of Christ. These two types of mankind are contrasted particularly in 1 Corinthians Chapter 2; and in Chapter 14:37 and 15:42-58.
So let us ask the Scripture to answer for us whether Adam was originally formed from the dust of the earth as a Psychekos, a natural man; the enemy of God; separated from God; whose heart was evil above all things; unable to understand the things of God; for whom the things of God were foolishness; who was none of his; who did not have eternal life dwelling within him; who was at war with the Spirit of God and was not compatible with the Spirit neither could he be; upon whom the wrath of God abided forever.
Or was Adam formed from the dust of the earth as a Pnevmatikos,a spiritual man; poses sing eternal life; able to understand the things of God; as a spiritual child of God, able to worship a spiritual God in Spirit and in truth.
Was Adam formed first as a spiritual man who sinned and became a natural man and will be able to receive the gospel of Christ and once again become a spiritual man?
I think every honest, sincere Christian will admit that the Scripture clearly teaches the answer to that is no. That is not first which is spiritual but that which is natural and then that which is spiritual.
Adam was originally formed from the dust of the earth as a natural man, dead, in need of a savior, as is every man bo
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