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"Instead of social security cards and credit cards, the number will be printed in the forehead or hand so that all who receive it will carry it at all times. Using modern technology, it will be a method to eliminate losing such cards or having them stolen or duplicated."
-- Roy L. Branson
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Rapture Rupture Or Resurrection
Posted on Sunday, November 12 @ 18:36:41 PST by kalos |
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davo submitted: "There is currently a debate in certain preterist circles around a notion that the first century believers, those being defined as "true believers" [though how that distinction is actually determined, as opposed to "less true" believers isn't really defined] were literally "raptured" en masse off the face of the planet to heaven, at Christ's AD70 Parousia.
There are a number of difficulties or objections that have been raised with this somewhat 'fulfilled dispensational' approach. One such problem or inconsistency is the issue of 'the kingdom'. Those advocating the 'literal rapture' teaching say that there were NO Christians "left behind" AFTER what they identify as 'the rapture' [sound familiar?] – the event preterism usually identifies as "the resurrection". When challenged that there appears to be no historical evidence of this mass exodus they claim that ONLY "true believers" could "see" the coming kingdom and identify it as such, but being summarily "raptured up up and away" were logically NOT present to record such. All this of course assumes that their position on these "true believers" and what they ALONE allegedly saw is correct – HOWEVER, there is sufficient Scriptural evidence that challenges this whole notion and calls to account and into question the seriousness of this 'literal rapture' proposition.
One matter is – the issue of the kingdom's coming, and WHO saw it.
The fullness of "The Kingdom" was to find fruition in the Parousia, along with the consummating Resurrection and Judgment – Paul writes to Timothy:
2Tim 4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom.
The living were not required to die in order to be judged, for "we shall NOT all die" BUT "we shall all be changed" – such change was not from one temporal realm to another ethereal realm, but rather from one covenant status to another – from the old to the new.
This "changing of the guard" if you will, Jesus said, WOULD BE duly witnessed, and NOT ONLY by so-called true believers, as these rapturists purport. Jesus told Caiaphas and his audience to the high priest's face:
Mt 26:64 Jesus said to him, “It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven.” cf. Mk 14:62
Clearly the above is in strict contradiction to the 'literal rapture' dogma, and only positional bias could ignore Jesus' very words. Not only that, but we also have evidenced by the scriptures the FACT that there were "true believers" present AFTER the so-called rapture, AFTER our Lord's "coming in power":
Mk 9:1 And He said to them, “Assuredly, I say to you that there are some standing here who will not taste death till they see the kingdom of God present with power.” [NKJV] marginal note reads: having come.
Without dispute what this verse shows, and that of the previous chapter's verse 34, is that Mark makes clear that some of the crowd that Jesus spoke with along with certain of the disciples would survive, remaining to the end [1Thess 4:17] AND living through the Parousia to witness the consummation of the kingdom. The reality of this is expressed in the Greek text where the perfect participle is indicative of an event having taken place and certain ones STILL being present thereafter and remaining, having witnessed it. In other words, Mark says that some of the audience that Jesus spoke to would live to be able to look back on this event and know without any shadow of doubt that the coming of the Lord and His kingdom had in actuality already come, and fully so. This IS yet another nail in the 'literal rapture' coffin.
Reading a number of translations of the above verse makes this understanding unequivocal:
Mk 9:1 And Jesus was saying to them, "Truly I say to you, there are some of those who are standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power." [NASB]
Mk 9:1 And he said to them, “Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death until they see the kingdom of God after it has come with power.” [ESV]
Mk 9:1 Verily, say unto you--There, are, certain of those here standing, who shall in nowise taste of death, until they see the kingdom of God, already come in power. [ROTHERHAM]
Mk 9:1 And he said to them, `Verily I say to you, That there are certain of those standing here, who may not taste of death till they see the reign of God having come in power.' [YOUNG'S LITERAL TRANSLATION]
Mk 9:1 Then he added, "Believe me, there are some of you standing here who will know nothing of death until you have seen the kingdom of God already come in power!" [J.B. PHILLIPS]
Mk 9:1 And he said to them, Truly I say to you that there are men standing here who shall not taste death till they see that the kingdom of God has come with power. [LAMSA'S PESHITTA]
Mk 9:1 He went on to say, "In solemn truth I tell you that some of those who are standing here will certainly not taste death till they have seen the Kingdom of God already come in power. [R.F. WEYMOUTH] footnote:
Already come] Or 'already arrived;' the perfect participle. The imperfect act 'coming' is mentioned in Matt. xvi. 28, the completed act of 'having come' is mentioned here.
In power] Some suppose that the reference is to a spiritual and judicial Coming of Christ at the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D., just within the lifetime of His earthly contemporaries.
Even as Jesus said "standing here" so was there in fulfillment some standing then, looking back having witnessed these things, knowing full well that the kingdom of God had come. It is a more than forced reading of these texts that expunges these eyewitnesses from it – Jesus prophesied of their presence, and present they were, much to the annoyance of the contrived eisegesis of some.
davo – pantelism.com –
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Average Score: 2.33
Votes: 3
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Re: Rapture Rupture Or Resurrection (Score: 1)
 by valensname on Sunday, November 12 @ 20:11:52 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | davo,
"There is currently a debate in certain preterist circles..."
Where is this debate taking place? As one who for a time tenatively held to the 70 AD rapture, I have not noticed any "current debate" or "noise" regarding this teaching after the release of Harding's book in June 2005.
For those wanting a more indepth study on this issue I suggest reading:
Expectations Demand A First Century Rapture by Ed Stevens
Taken to Heaven in AD 70 by Ian Harding
Don Preston and Dan Harden have currently unpublished books that refute the literal AD 70 rapture teaching. Hopefully they will be published in the near future.
Glenn |
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- by davo on Monday, November 13 @ 03:23:20 PST
Re: Rapture Rupture Or Resurrection (Score: 1)
by PreteristArchive on Monday, November 13 @ 00:45:47 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | To any who may be interested, I've recently posted a book from 1841 (Ephraim Currier's "The Second Coming of Christ, and the Resurrection..") which teaches a form of rapture removal of "the just" in AD70.
http://www.preteristarchive.com/Books/1841_currier_second-coming.html
"If I do not greatly misunderstand the meaning of the scriptures, the great and dreadful day of the Lord, day of the Lord, &c. in the old Testament, and the coming of Christ, in the four Gospels, and the resurrection, in the epistles, all refer to one time. That time I understand to be at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem." (p. 33)
"If any thing can be proved by the word of God, I pledge myself to prove beyond a reasonable doubt, that the resurrection of the Jews and all Christian believers, was at the time of the destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans." |
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- by jaredcoleman on Monday, November 13 @ 05:24:11 PST
Re: Rapture Rupture Or Resurrection (Score: 1)
 by chrisliv on Monday, November 13 @ 10:41:45 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Well,
It may not be directly relevant to this article, but I recently came across a fact about one odd 19th century Christian Separatist and Utopian Society of Oneida, which started around Vermont and upstate New York somewhere. Anyway, they taught and believed that The Coming of the Lord was already past, although I don't know if they also fix it at 70 AD, or if they thought a bodily Rapture occurred at that time.
Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone
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- by chrisliv on Monday, November 13 @ 11:02:52 PST
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