 |
 |
|
Adam was a super being when God created him. I don't know whether people realize this, but he was the first Superman that really ever lived. First of all, the Scriptures declare clearly that he had dominion over the fowls of the air, the fish of the sea - which means he used to fly. Of course, how can he have dominion over the birds and not be able to do what they do? The word 'dominion' in the Hebrew clearly declares that if you have dominion over a subject, that you do everything that subject does. In other words, that subject, if it does something you cannot do, you don't have dominion over it. I'll prove it further. Adam not only flew, he flew to space. He was - with one thought he would be on the moon." -- Benny Hinn |
|
 |  |
News: The Biblical View of Science
Posted on Thursday, September 07 @ 06:32:01 PDT by Samuel Frost |
|
by W. Gary Crampton
Many non-Christians, and all too many Christians, are of the opinion that science, (i.e., the physical or natural sciences) is an ever-growing body of truth about the universe. The progress of science, its technological triumphs, so we are told, demonstrate its truth. Science is seemingly unassailable. After all, it works doesn’t it? And isn’t success the measure of truth?
This being the case, so it goes, when the Bible and science appear to be at odds, we need to re-interpret the Bible. For example, since science tells us (and the pope agrees) that (some sort of) evolution is a fact, not just a theory, we need to take a fresh look at Genesis 1. No longer can we assert with the Westminster Shorter Catechism (Q 9) that "the work of creation is God’s making all things of nothing, by the Word of His power, in the space of six days, and all very good." Six-day creationism needs to be re-examined. It is, we are assured, an obscurantist view of things.
To speak against this sort of scientific thinking is almost blasphemous in some circles, because, for many, science is the god of this age. Yet, that is what this paper intends to do, that is, to blaspheme the god of science. Science, it will be seen, is not the main revealer of truth. In fact, science is not capable of revealing any truth at all.
What then is the Biblical view of science? Science enables us to fulfill the mandate of Genesis 1:28: "Then God blessed them [Adam and Eve], and God said to them, ‘Be fruitful and multiply; fill the Earth and subdue it; have dominion over the fish of the sea, over the birds of the air, and over every living thing that moves on the Earth.’ " Science gives us directions for doing things, or "operating," in this world. It does not explain how the laws of nature work, nor does it accurately define or describe things. Science does not discover truth; it is a method for dominating and utilizing nature; it is merely a practical discipline that helps us live in God’s universe and subdue it.
As strange as it might sound to the reader that science never gives us truth, it is precisely that belief that has been held by leading scientists and philosophers.1 Albert Einstein, for example, speaking of our knowledge of the universe, said: "We know nothing about it at all . . .. The real nature of things, that we shall never know, never." The British philosopher Karl Popper wrote: "We know that our scientific theories always remain hypotheses... In science there is no knowledge, in the sense in which Plato and Aristotle understood the word, in the sense which implies finality; in science we never have sufficient reason for the belief that we have attained the truth." Popper went on to say: "It can even be shown that all [scientific] theories, including the best, have the same probability, namely zero." Then too, Bertrand Russell, who will be quoted below, asserted that all scientific laws are based on fallacious arguments. And philosopher Paul Feyerabend, in his book Against Method: Outline of an Anarchistic Theory of Knowledge, writes:
"On closer analysis we even find that science knows no ‘bare facts’ at all but that the ‘facts’ that enter our knowledge are already viewed in a certain way and are, therefore, essentially ideational. This being the case, the history of science will be as complex, chaotic, full of mistakes, and entertaining as the ideas it contains, and these ideas in turn will be as complex, chaotic, full of mistakes, and entertaining as are the minds of those that invented them."
John Robbins has pointed out that there are at least five logical difficulties with science, i.e., five reasons why science can never give us truth:2
(1) Observation is unreliable. Scientists do not perform an experiment only once. Experiments are always repeated, and the results most always differ in some way. Why? Because the senses tend to deceive us; they are not to be trusted. Hence, numerous readings are taken in an attempt to guard against inaccurate observation. So much is this the case in science, that tests with unrepeatable results are never taken seriously. But if observation is unreliable, if the senses are so easily deceived, if the results frequently differ, why should one ever believe that he has discovered truth through observation?
(2) All scientific experiments commit the fallacy of asserting the consequent. In syllogistic form this is expressed as: "If p, then q. q; therefore, p." Bertrand Russell, certainly no friend of Christianity, stated it this way:
All inductive arguments in the last resort reduce themselves to the following form: "If this is true, that is true: now that is true, therefore this is true." This argument is, of course, formally fallacious. Suppose I were to say: "If bread is a stone and stones are nourishing, then this bread will nourish me; now this bread does nourish me; therefore it is a stone, and stones are nourishing." If I were to advance such an argument, I should certainly be thought foolish, yet it would not be fundamentally different from the argument upon which all scientific laws are based.
In the laboratory scientists work with a hypothesis. In this case the hypothesis is: "If bread is a stone and stones are nourishing, then this bread will nourish me." The scientist then attempts to deduce the predicted results that should occur if the hypothesis is true, such as "this bread nourishes me." He then performs an experiment to test the hypothesis to see if the predicted results occur. So he sits down at the table and eats the bread, and wonder of wonders, the bread does nourish him. The hypothesis, he concludes, is confirmed: "This bread is a stone and stones are nourishing." Silly you say? Yes! Yet, as Russell has asserted, it is not "fundamentally different from the argument upon which all scientific laws are based." That is to say, all scientific laws are based on fallacious arguments.
(3) Science commits the fallacy of induction. Induction is the attempt to derive a general law from particular instances. Science is necessarily inductive. For example, if a scientist is studying crows, he might observe 999 crows and find that they all are black. But is he ever able to assert that all crows are black? No; the next crow he observes might be an albino. One can never observe all crows: past, present, and future. Universal propositions can never be validly obtained by observation. Hence, science can never give us true statements.
(4) Equations are always selected, they are never discovered. In the laboratory the scientist seeks to determine the boiling point of water. Since water hardly ever boils at the same temperature, the scientist conducts a number of tests and the slightly differing results are noted. He then must average them. But what kind of average does he use: mean, mode, or median? He must choose; and whatever kind of average he selects, it is his own choice; it is not dictated by the data. Then too, the average he chooses is just that, that is, it is an average, not the actual datum yielded by the experiment. Once the test results have been averaged, the scientist will calculate the variable error in his readings. He will likely plot the data points or areas on a graph. Then he will draw a curve through the resultant data points or areas on the graph. But how many curves, each one of which describes a different equation, are possible? An infinite number of curves is possible. But the scientist draws only one. What is the probability of the scientist choosing the correct curve out of an infinite number of possibilities? The chance is one over infinity, or zero. Therefore, all scientific laws are false. They cannot possibly be true. As cited above, the statement of Karl Popper is correct: "It can even be shown that all theories, including the best, have the same probability, namely zero."
(5) All scientific laws describe ideal situations. As Clark has said, "At best, scientific law is a construction rather than a discovery, and the construction depends on factors never seen under a microscope, never weighed in a balance, never handled or manipulated."3 Clark uses the law of the pendulum as an example:
The law of the pendulum states that the period of the swing is proportional to the square root of the length. If, however, the weight of the bob is unevenly displaced around its center, the law will not hold. The law assumes that the bob is homogeneous, that the weight is symmetrically distributed along all axes, or more technically, that the mass is concentrated at a point. No such bob exists, and hence the law is not an accurate description of any tangible pendulum. Second, the law assumes that the pendulum swings by a tensionless string. There is no such string, so that the scientific law does not describe any real pendulum. And third, the law could be true only if the pendulum swung on an axis without friction. There is no such axis. It follows, therefore, that no visible pendulum accords with the mathematical formula and that the formula is not a description of any existing pendulum.
From our study of these five logical difficulties, it can be readily seen that science is not capable of giving us any truth. And if the scientific method is a tissue of logical fallacies, why should Christians seek to argue from science to the truth? Simply stated, they should not. Science is useful in accomplishing its purpose, i.e., subduing the Earth. But that is all it is useful for, nothing more.
The question arises, "If science never gives us truth, how can it be so successful?" It all depends on how one defines success. We are now able to put a man on the moon; we are also able to destroy our fellow man with one push of a button. Are these measures of success? Scientific theories are always changing (whereas truth is eternal). Is constant change a measure of success?
Science is successful when one understands its purpose, and when one understands that false theories sometimes work. Newtonian science, for example, worked for years. It has been replaced by Einstein’s theory. But even though he believed his theory to be a better approximation of the truth than Newton’s, Einstein declared that his own theory was false.
Science has its place in a Christian philosophy, an important place. But science is never to be seen as a means of learning truth. Truth is found in the Scriptures alone; the Bible has a monopoly on truth. It is God’s Word that must be believed, not the experiments of men. As Robbins has said: "Science is false, and must always be false. Scripture is true and must always be true. The issue is as clear, and as simple, as that."
Notes
1. The quotes used here are cited in the Foreword of Gordon H. Clark’s The Philosophy of Science and Belief in God (The Trinity Foundation, 1987), and in the December 1994 edition of The Lofton Letter, edited by John Lofton, 10, 11.
2. John W. Robbins, Logic Seminar, Westminster Institute, July 1995.
3. Clark, 57.
|
| |
 |
|
Average Score: 1.15 Votes: 26
|
|
 |
^^Go to Top - E-mail to Friend - Print - View PDF - Subscribe - Comments RSS
Re: The Biblical View of Science (Score: 1)
by Kyle Peterson (peterson.kyle@gmail.com) on Thursday, September 07 @ 07:19:18 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Sam, (and Gary)
While several of these points are valid, I believe Gary and you are taking an extreme position. There are two statements that I would argue no Christian can deny
1)God created (what we labeled) science - thus there is absolute truth in science.
2)God created man in His image - thus there is given the ability to observe and learn.
It appears the issue you take with science is man's (especially the non-christians') inability to fully comprehend the vastness of God's creation that our observations cannot be trusted. While I believe this is true on several occasions, I still believe we got some of it right and will continue to do so as time goes on.
However, the same principle must apply to God's Word as well. By the same token man must also have the inability to fully comprehend the vastness of God's revelations found in the Bible. Thus we arrive at the conclusion that no single person can be trusted to know the entire truth about God's Word. Again I affirm.
This being the case, so it goes, when the Bible and science appear to be at odds, we need to re-interpret the Bible.
I believe this to be a poor generalization by Gary indeed. |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
Re: The Biblical View of Science (Score: 1)
by Virgil on Thursday, September 07 @ 07:29:37 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | | Hey Sam, what sciences were used to translate, interpret and manufacture the Bible in order to create Reformed and Systematic Theology in the English language? |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by Kyle Peterson on Thursday, September 07 @ 07:50:37 PDT
- by Virgil on Thursday, September 07 @ 07:55:18 PDT
- by Sam on Thursday, September 07 @ 10:34:11 PDT
- by Ozark on Thursday, September 07 @ 12:26:27 PDT
Re: The Biblical View of Science (Score: 1)
by Sam on Thursday, September 07 @ 10:32:14 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil, Kyle,
Deal with the arguments of the article instead of straw men. I think I'll side with Einstein, Popper and Russell on this one, true scientists, and truly honest as to the nature of science. One of the interesting things in the life of Gordon Clark, who sat as Chair of Philosophy at the prestigious Butler University, is that the scientists on the faculty AGREED with him...it was the Christians that gave him a hard time! Like I said, I think I'll side with Einstein over Virgil and Kyle on this issue...until you can demonstrate how observation produces perception (a mighty task ahead of you!), then, argumentively, the article stands until positively defeated.
Sam |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by amie on Thursday, September 07 @ 13:08:04 PDT
- by Sam on Thursday, September 07 @ 14:46:19 PDT
- by amie on Friday, September 08 @ 09:52:22 PDT
- by Kyle Peterson on Thursday, September 07 @ 13:16:42 PDT
- by Sam on Thursday, September 07 @ 14:49:54 PDT
- by Kyle Peterson on Thursday, September 07 @ 16:24:42 PDT
Re: The Biblical View of Science (Score: 1)
by Mick on Thursday, September 07 @ 13:58:24 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Observation is unreliable
It might be more accurate to say measurements are inaccurate. The most common reason experiments are repeated are for the purpose of substantiation or to refute the theory or previously reported data. It is true observational bias exits and it is possible for the observer to report data incorrectly. This is the point of the scientific method. When enough different observations confirm a theory then it is considered a fact. Evolution is a fact. The existence of my collies is proof. They are a modern breed created by cross breeding of two older breeds. The Theory of Evolution is just that, a theory. It is an attempt to explain the data collected by observation of the universe. A theory not supported by the data in my opinion. Creation Science and Intelligent Design are other theories. I think Intelligent Design works better as an apologetic and Creation Science is a very weak theory. If observation, data collection and statistical analysis of the data are not reliable methods drawing conclusions about the universe, much of the advancement prevention and treatment of disease can only be explained by chance (not) or the miraculous intervention of God in the treatment of disease (which I believe ended with the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in the first century). (I do believe that God works today in ways to bring about healing in ways we can not at this time explain but this is not the same thing we saw in the first century at the hands of Jesus and his followers, but I digress). In a similar way we would not have been able to fly to the moon and back if it were not for the scientific method. New technologies and materials needed to be invented that did not exist before the US space program began. These were only created through the scientific method. Creation of new materials is something Man has that is in the image of God
All scientific experiments commit the fallacy of asserting the consequent.
I have addressed this in my above comments. If we expect moral integrity and intellectual honesty from our scientists then this assertion is not a problem. The problem then is not with the scientific method but with the morality of the scientists. We need to encourage more Christian young people to excel in science to restore moral integrity to science. If we insist on young people taking a “simple reading of the Bible” they are forced to choose between science and the Bible. I would assert a disagreement between science and the Bible is bad science, bad theology or both.
Science commits the fallacy of induction
This is solved by statistical analysis. I don’t need to put every person in the world on a “statin” to lower their cholesterol in an attempt to prevent/postpone a first or subsequent heart attack. Statistical analysis allows me to move from the general to the specific. To make another case that will hit closer to home Sam, I did not need to wait for every person on the globe to get a dental abscess before I knew amoxicillin would help treat the abscess and relieve the pain until definitive surgical treatment could be rendered.
Equations are always selected, they are never discovered
While this is a true statement, intellectual honesty aided by statistical analysis guides the selection. The equation selected is the one that is the best fit of the data. When I worked as an engineer for USEPA, we would collect data and derive equations to describe what we thought was going on. The equations were just another way of expressing our data. The equations were used to help decided if one treatment of environmental pollution was superior to another.
All scientific laws describe ideal situations
This again is in part true. In high school physics we learn to use a “delta” as a first approximation of our understanding of how gravity works. Only later after an understanding of calculus and differential equations do we discover those “deltas” are actually “d’s. The same is true of t
Read the rest of this comment... |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by mazuur on Saturday, September 09 @ 09:24:19 PDT
- by Sam on Saturday, September 09 @ 10:26:40 PDT
- by mazuur on Saturday, September 09 @ 13:33:24 PDT
Re: The Biblical View of Science (Score: 1)
by JL (jlv@planetpreterist.com) on Thursday, September 07 @ 15:37:39 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Sam,
May I suggest:
[Scriptural interpretations] are always changing (whereas truth is eternal). Is constant change a measure of success?
As I've said before, your interpretation of Scripture is not Scripture. It is therefore not truth. All you have is a hypothesis about what the truth might be like. You do not have truth. You do not know truth.
Everything you've said about science and everything this article says about science holds true for your interpretations of Scripture.
JL |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by valensname on Thursday, September 07 @ 16:21:44 PDT
- by JL on Thursday, September 07 @ 16:46:33 PDT
- by valensname on Thursday, September 07 @ 18:54:53 PDT
- by JL on Thursday, September 07 @ 20:02:14 PDT
Re: The Biblical View of Science (Score: 1)
by Jer on Thursday, September 07 @ 16:37:02 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | I've been pondering some of these things recently, too.
The author quotes Feyerabend, "On closer analysis we even find that science knows no ‘bare facts’ at all but that the ‘facts’ that enter our knowledge are already viewed in a certain way and are, therefore, essentially ideational. This being the case, the history of science will be as complex, chaotic, full of mistakes, and entertaining as the ideas it contains, and these ideas in turn will be as complex, chaotic, full of mistakes, and entertaining as are the minds of those that invented them."
The same thing can be said of our religion. One's experiences, knowledge (or lack of it in my case), presuppositions, etc. frame our reading of a text and limit the possible "truths" we may discover. As a result, Christianity also has a history "as complex, chaotic, full of mistakes, and entertaining as the ideas it contains."
The author also quotes Popper, "In science there is no knowledge... in the sense which implies finality; in science we never have sufficient reason for the belief that we have attained the truth."
Is the knowledge we glean from scripture different? Robbins said, "Science is false, and must always be false. Scripture is true and must always be true. The issue is as clear, and as simple, as that." I don't believe it's that simple. The truth of scripture is also obfuscated by the indelible subjectiveness of the human element. I can't view scripture apart from my self. How does one overcome this? The author tells us that scripture is true, but he doesn't tell us how to arrive at truth. It's one thing to assert that "science can never give us truth" and "the Bible has a monopoly on truth." It's another thing entirely to demonstrate what is truth.
Both science and religion start with presuppositions and neither are immune to the human element. The author criticizes science on these grounds, but doesn't seem to admit the same for his position. Perhaps I misunderstood him. |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by JL on Thursday, September 07 @ 17:28:51 PDT
- by Sam on Thursday, September 07 @ 19:33:51 PDT
- by Kyle Peterson on Friday, September 08 @ 05:29:41 PDT
- by vento on Friday, September 08 @ 10:13:32 PDT
- by JL on Friday, September 08 @ 11:01:21 PDT
- by vento on Friday, September 08 @ 12:03:30 PDT
- by JL on Friday, September 08 @ 12:21:35 PDT
- by Windpressor on Tuesday, September 12 @ 23:31:37 PDT
- by JL on Wednesday, September 13 @ 10:06:17 PDT
- by Windpressor on Thursday, September 14 @ 00:40:12 PDT
- by JL on Thursday, September 14 @ 07:08:23 PDT
- by valensname on Thursday, September 14 @ 09:26:56 PDT
- by JL on Thursday, September 14 @ 10:24:57 PDT
- by valensname on Thursday, September 14 @ 10:52:33 PDT
- by JL on Thursday, September 14 @ 11:25:35 PDT
- by valensname on Thursday, September 14 @ 12:27:22 PDT
- by Windpressor on Friday, September 15 @ 02:02:10 PDT
- by JL on Friday, September 15 @ 05:54:58 PDT
- by Windpressor on Friday, September 15 @ 10:12:19 PDT
- by Starlight on Friday, September 15 @ 19:30:33 PDT
- by valensname on Friday, September 15 @ 20:48:09 PDT
- by Starlight on Friday, September 15 @ 21:22:30 PDT
- by Starlight on Friday, September 15 @ 21:28:02 PDT
- by valensname on Friday, September 15 @ 21:44:23 PDT
- by Starlight on Saturday, September 16 @ 05:57:34 PDT
- by JL on Tuesday, September 19 @ 17:31:36 PDT
- by Sam on Saturday, September 09 @ 10:31:17 PDT
Re: The Biblical View of Science (Score: 1)
by Starlight on Thursday, September 07 @ 22:20:29 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | The reason we need to take a fresh look at Genesis is because so many want to apply a pseudo science to it and not read it in its proper context. When we begin to examine it from the perspective of the original audience and not from a western induced typology, we will begin to appropriately understand its message from the actual worldview of the Hebrews. Central to the theme of Genesis for the Hebrews was the tabernacle and temple typology that is derived from the Genesis creation account.
For a broader understanding read the article “The Temple Symbolism in Genesis” located at http://askelm.com/doctrine/d040301.htm . The illumination of the tabernacle/temple as a pattern from Genesis was a central reason for the use of the Genesis stories in deriving their worldview and in their becoming the covenantal children of God. This was of utmost importance to them, and the Baconian scientific quest into the meaning of Genesis would have been beyond their imaginations and perhaps blasphemous. Along with their theological need also was the need to answer the pagan mythologies of the Babylonians and Egyptian cults of that day and age. Moses was dealing with a worldview that we cannot imagine unless we perform our due diligence and seek to research and comprehend their background. But this means we have to consider the scriptures contextually and not in a woodenly scientifically literal manner.
Also of significance is that there appears an unwholesome supposition about science in this particular posting. The tone of the argument is us against the scientist, I would highly recommend that some of the posters here read Mark A. Knoll’s book written in 1995 “The Scandal of the Evangelical Mind” He starts out his first chapter with the statement “ The scandal of the evangelical mind is that there is not much of an evangelical mind” He lays out that Christian America has evolved in evangelical circles a ghetto mentality (my words) toward science (he is especially critical of Dispensationalism and Creationism) and how it seriously undermines our credibility and our contributions to serious intellectual endeavors.
Now we must realize that many evangelicals are proud to wear that badge of ignorance as a sign of their piety. We simply have to look here in America at some of the fringe religious groups that have embraced this mentality in its pure and robust fashion. The Quakers and Mennonite groups give us a lovely picture of where the purity of this mentality leads. They have no interest in science except in the heretical subgroups (some Mennonites feel its ok to indulge in chrome bumpers on their pure black vehicles instead of having to paint them totally black) of course the more pure Quakers consider this outright heresy. This is some of the extreme or pure ideologies that are out there today but the same anti science mentality permeates our Christian culture extensively and I believe undercuts our children and our brethren when it comes to being a player in the world of scientific endeavors. It’s difficult to persuade our children to become interested in serious biology, geology or you name it when they know that they will be looked down on in their own Christian community. As I said, that is perfectly acceptable to many but I believe it is based upon a distorted understanding of the bible and of science.
The worst of this anti science mentality is that it becomes a barrier to the acceptance of the bible as legitimate to many, who only see it as irrelevant because of the exasperating proclamations of creationist and dispensationalists.
What really drives this ship though is the fear of science, and that it will undermine our religious convictions and therefore undermine the faith. Lets be honest, there are definitely arrogant naturalist scientist out there whom these verses fit well
(Rom 1:21 NIV) For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although th
Read the rest of this comment... |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by Kyle Peterson on Friday, September 08 @ 05:36:51 PDT
- by Starlight on Friday, September 08 @ 07:20:28 PDT
Re: The Biblical View of Science (Score: 1)
by philmute on Friday, September 08 @ 05:05:38 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Sam and Gary,
the thing is Australia as an example now produces a fair proportion of the World's wheat because science discovered what was lacking in the soil that rendered it unproductive. In brief science has provided the World with food, sadly Man's greed means it is still distributed inequally, but yes essentially if something works then it's valued, and why not? Should we reject science and pray for good crops rather than add the known ingredients to assure it? My LCD screen began with some bloke observing the chemical changes that occured with Carrot shavings and the long process of trial and observation demonstrates a humility and fidelity that most Christians would do well to envy. |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by JL on Friday, September 08 @ 09:30:47 PDT
- by philmute on Saturday, September 09 @ 12:16:41 PDT
- by JL on Saturday, September 09 @ 17:17:41 PDT
- by philmute on Saturday, September 09 @ 22:28:07 PDT
- by Virgil on Friday, September 08 @ 10:50:57 PDT
Re: The Biblical View of Science (Score: 1)
by Ransom on Friday, September 08 @ 12:08:08 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Fine, throw physical science out the window. Deny everything that the vast majority of scientists, non-Christian and Christian, have said over the last 150 or so years. But by using all other available resources in looking at the text, there are good enough reasons to conclude that the Bible makes no divinely-dictated declaration about the age of the earth or the method of creation.
I find it laughable that someone who is anti-post-modern would tout the major post-modern assertion that observation is unreliable and then turn around to declare that a simple observation can be taken on its surface as truth without any need for the bother of laboring over interpretation: this sounds ridiculous, but it's exactly what someone who advocates a surface-reading of the Bible is saying. |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by Virgil on Friday, September 08 @ 13:04:38 PDT
- by MiddleKnowledge on Sunday, September 10 @ 11:06:38 PDT
Re: The Biblical View of Science (Score: 1)
by valensname on Saturday, September 09 @ 06:47:43 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | I find it amazing that some of you old-Earth preterists say that the Bible doesn’t speak about how long creation took, that the Bible doesn’t speak on the age of the Earth or that the Bible says that it is ancient (millions or billions years old).
I just am amazed that preterists who regard time statements regarding the Parousia as valid, then seem to take the time statements regarding how long creation took and the age of the Earth and Heavens and what appears to be casually tossing it aside. In my understanding the reading of the creation accounts is just as simple and plain to understand as time statements in the NT such as in Luke 3:1; Matthew 17:1; John 12:1; and Acts 24:1 to name a few. In my view, reading the creation accounts is no harder to understand than Stephen’s recap of Israel’s history. If Stephen had only started with Adam, I wonder if that would have convinced old-Earth Christians that God made the heavens and the earth and everything in them in six days or that Genesis 1-11 is historical narrative? Why is it so hard to accept six days for creation and how old someone was when their sons were born and how old they were when they died and the other time statements in the Bible to easily deduce how old the Earth is?
I am convicted I understand correctly the Genesis account regarding how long God took to make the Heavens and the Earth and how old the Earth is. I believe God supernaturally created it all in six days about 6,000 years ago. To me it is no harder to understand and accept than the miracles recorded in the NT. If technology could have observed the miracles in the NT I image they would have recorded a person physically dead then physically alive but have not be able to explain how it happened. It was a supernatural event, just like Creation. Or consider the healing of a lame person. It happened on the spot but today’s technology or science might suggest it took a lot longer to heal as bones and tissue just doesn’t heal like that.
Yes I have read most of the old-Earth preterist writings (and find them not at all up to par to those preterist writings regarding eschatology – funny thing most of the modern preterist and partial preterist writers, scholars some might say, who have published books seem to hold to a young Earth, wonder why?) that Genesis is something besides historical narrative and it is just my interpretation but I still stick to believing God created the Heavens and the Earth and everything in them in six days and through the time statements in the Bible that the Heavens and Earth are about 6,000 years old. I could be wrong but I have not read or seen anything to convince me otherwise.
I’m going to delve into some more study. I’ll read the posts to keep up with the discussion but hopefully won’t be tempted to respond for awhile.
Glenn
|
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by Ransom on Saturday, September 09 @ 16:39:04 PDT
- by Starlight on Saturday, September 09 @ 21:13:27 PDT
- by paul on Monday, September 11 @ 19:46:10 PDT
- by valensname on Monday, September 11 @ 21:09:19 PDT
- by paul on Tuesday, September 12 @ 17:28:08 PDT
- by valensname on Tuesday, September 12 @ 19:16:33 PDT
- by paul on Tuesday, September 12 @ 19:44:34 PDT
- by valensname on Tuesday, September 12 @ 20:23:47 PDT
- by JL on Tuesday, September 12 @ 23:02:11 PDT
- by valensname on Wednesday, September 13 @ 03:43:54 PDT
- by JL on Wednesday, September 13 @ 08:13:34 PDT
- by valensname on Wednesday, September 13 @ 09:33:27 PDT
- by JL on Wednesday, September 13 @ 11:18:43 PDT
- by valensname on Wednesday, September 13 @ 19:45:17 PDT
- by Windpressor on Monday, September 18 @ 00:24:31 PDT
- by valensname on Monday, September 18 @ 09:38:05 PDT
- by valensname on Monday, September 18 @ 12:30:02 PDT
- by JL on Monday, September 18 @ 13:16:38 PDT
- by valensname on Monday, September 18 @ 14:26:26 PDT
- by JL on Monday, September 18 @ 14:40:27 PDT
- by valensname on Monday, September 18 @ 19:09:32 PDT
- by JL on Tuesday, September 19 @ 07:28:07 PDT
- by valensname on Tuesday, September 19 @ 09:29:53 PDT
- by JL on Tuesday, September 19 @ 10:39:10 PDT
- by valensname on Tuesday, September 19 @ 10:56:57 PDT
- by JL on Tuesday, September 19 @ 11:15:53 PDT
- by valensname on Tuesday, September 19 @ 12:26:18 PDT
- by JL on Tuesday, September 19 @ 12:42:21 PDT
- by valensname on Tuesday, September 19 @ 17:30:53 PDT
- by Windpressor on Wednesday, September 20 @ 03:35:11 PDT
- by JL on Wednesday, September 20 @ 09:05:51 PDT
- by valensname on Wednesday, September 20 @ 09:36:58 PDT
- by Windpressor on Wednesday, September 20 @ 10:27:46 PDT
- by valensname on Wednesday, September 20 @ 10:51:21 PDT
- by JL on Wednesday, September 20 @ 13:43:01 PDT
- by valensname on Wednesday, September 20 @ 14:28:02 PDT
- by JL on Wednesday, September 20 @ 15:02:43 PDT
- by valensname on Wednesday, September 20 @ 14:47:03 PDT
- by JL on Wednesday, September 20 @ 15:15:09 PDT
- by valensname on Wednesday, September 20 @ 17:30:24 PDT
- by JL on Wednesday, September 20 @ 18:14:23 PDT
- by valensname on Wednesday, September 20 @ 19:35:49 PDT
- by JL on Wednesday, September 20 @ 23:45:26 PDT
OEC Holders Don’t Use Proper Hermeneutics (Score: 1)
by valensname on Thursday, September 21 @ 18:46:27 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | JL still will not deal with the immediate context of Genesis 1-3, Exodus 20:11 nor has he done so with regard to the flood. Have not preterists emphasized over and over that first one must begin with the immediate context? JL does not do this, his favorite method of interpretation is to first find a word or phrase that to his mind allows him to then import what he wants back into the immediate context. Have preterists not over and over stated that the immediate context determines the meaning?
And JL continues to use Milton Terry’s works to make sweeping generalizations that since according to JL, the creation account is apocalyptic then the six days of creation cannot be six ordinary days. However, then Terry and JL are not consistent. Let me quote from Biblical Hermeneutics, page 338, “Apocalyptics is a theological term of recent origin employed in biblical literature to designate a class of prophetic writings which refer to impending or future judgments, and the final glory of the Messianic kingdom.” Even Terry’s own definition of apocalyptics in no way fits the creation account. Who in their right mind can say that the opening chapter of the Bible refers to impending or future judgments or how God created heavens and earth is prophetic? Genesis 1 is clearly historical in nature. It was written after creation. Or does JL or other OEC believe it was written before the creation of the heavens and the earth and mankind and refers to some impending or future judgment?
The interpretation that the creation days were ordinary days, “For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day” is completely consistent throughout the Bible.
Again I appeal that this discussion be raised to a higher level of scholarship and consistent hermeneutics just as preterists have done regarding eschatology.
Glenn
|
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
|
|