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What was the appearance of God the Father? Like that of a man...God has the likeness of fingers and hands and a face.
-- Good Morning Holy Spirit, (Benny Hinn, Word, 1991) p. 82
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Preterism: Trouble in Paradise
Posted on Sunday, September 03 @ 17:06:45 PDT by Virgil |
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ViaSollertia submitted: "As one who is essentially new to Preterism, I find that while it has an appeal to the intellect it suffers from one essential flaw where I am concerned - it does not compute with the sequence of visions which I (and many others) have been privy to.
On both sides of the argument I find that the written Word is used as the cudgel to quell dissent and to beat such as myself into submission, but due to the intensity and frequency of the visions and revelations which I have received these past 24 years, I am way past the specious sophistry of mere men. I would pose this challenge to the various expositors and propounders of many of the views expressed in this forum - have you had a personal encounter with Jesus and with His Holy Spirit whereby you have been told that what you believe is valid, or is it simply the product of your own intellect?
Without meaning to sound pretentious or presumptuously prophetic, I have received my inspirations and revelations directly from The Lord Jesus Christ by His Spirit. I did not particularly seek them at first, in fact I was something of a reluctant convert, preferring to go my own way until the compulsion of His calling became irresistible. My own native curiosity caused me to seek out the Truth as a person and not a thing - I figured (somewhat lazily) that if I could in fact hear directly from the author of my salvation, that it would save me a lot of effort.
I tried the study route and found that the more I knew the less I grew, and that in the end that true inspiration comes as (super)naturally as breathing. Striving only leads to confusion - rest is found in the reassurance of faith.
The first "end-time" vision I experienced came upon me quite unexpectedly, as they all have done. I never know when they will happen, there is no warning or particular precursor event - they come as The Lord wills and provides. I was taken into the future, whether in the body or not, I do not know, but I was there when the glory of the Lord fell in a way that has never before been witnessed. The Lord came in a cloud and a revival of unprecedented magnitude and global implications began in our home town of Christchurch, New Zealand. I was something of a "New" christian and so much of what I saw and experienced was totally new and indeed foreign to me. The people with whom I fellow-shipped at the time were, I was to find out, largely given to a Preterits viewpoint, so my vision caused them to try and shut me down, much like when I tried to tell them that Jesus told me that tithing was under the Law.
A man with an experience ought never to be at the mercy of one with an argument, especially when the experiences which I have had have been so compelling and vivid. I do not expect that any should simply take me at my word - but I do offer this challenge to true seekers of Truth; ask Jesus what the truth of the matter is. Put away your concordances, Bible dictionaries, commentaries et al, and simply ask Jesus; do I really know you as the Living Word writ in my heart by the Living God? Forget about everything you think that you know and simply become submerged in the person of Jesus - forsake all your reasoning's, pontifications and prognostications and simply let Him reveal the Truth to you by His Spirit which resides (hopefully) in you, for you need not that any man should teach you, but the Holy Spirit will instruct you and bring you into all Truth.
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Re: Trouble in Paradise (Score: 1)
 by Virgil on Sunday, September 03 @ 17:13:21 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | ViaSollertia - to answer your pointed question, no I have never experience a "vision" from God in which divine revelation has been given to me via miraculous means. I am convinced from Scriptures that the miraculous gifts of the Holy Spirit have ceased with the fall of the Jewish temple and are no longer necessary in the present Kingdom of God.
Again, that is just my opinion, and I am hoping that your comments here can stir-up some conversation and discussion on this topic. Your thesis creates problems for those of us who consider the Word of God as having been given to us in a written form by the apostles. It creates even more problems if the visions give to you (and other Christians on this planet) are at odds with what is written in the Scriptures.
Many thanks for the insightful comment, and God bless you! |
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Re: Trouble in Paradise (Score: 1)
 by Sam on Sunday, September 03 @ 17:21:40 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Who is going to win the Stanley Cup this year?
Sam |
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- by Virgil on Sunday, September 03 @ 17:36:54 PDT
- by EWMI on Sunday, September 03 @ 17:42:25 PDT
- by Virgil on Sunday, September 03 @ 17:44:20 PDT
- by davo on Sunday, September 03 @ 19:24:53 PDT
- by EWMI on Sunday, September 03 @ 19:44:40 PDT
Re: Trouble in Paradise (Score: 1)
by EWMI on Sunday, September 03 @ 17:41:16 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Thank you for raising this issue. I am a Charismatic Preterist for want of a better description. My position on the Gifts is that they are no longer "gifts" but manifestations available to those who by faith require them. (This is still a work in progress in my case though.)
In the early nineties I began to realise that something was wrong in my understanding of things. I fasted several times for weeks on end. I regularly prayed that God would open the eyes of my understanding. It was fair to say that at that time I was a Dispensationalist trying to come to grips with past teaching, personal convictions and perhaps even visions similar to yours.
Today I feel that God answered my prayers and diligent seeking by directing us to Covenant Eschatology (Preterism). It is strange that prayer and fasting today no longer yields "End Time" or "Last Days" related visions etc. IMHO that is because my wrong dispensational understanding spawned wrong dreams or visions.
Today I face this all the time in my ministry here in Sydney. People say: "Yes but God Told Me the Rapture is Soon" etc. In response we direct them carefully and lovingly to the Word and open the door for discussion.
PS, I see from your article that you are from NZ. What is the Preterist Community like there? |
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Re: Trouble in Paradise (Score: 1)
by amie on Sunday, September 03 @ 19:11:01 PDT
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I'm not asking this as a joke, but in all seriousness.. when do these "visions" happen?
Amie |
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Re: Trouble in Paradise (Score: 1)
by Duncan on Sunday, September 03 @ 21:08:23 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | I come from a charismatic background; because of this I don't discount a priori a personal revelation. I do have a big problem with the idea of "forsake all your reasonings." We judge everything that claims to be of God by way of Scripture. What you have said so far has red flags all over it, but hey if you feel you have some divine revelation share it. Maybe we will be edified, maybe not...
Duncan |
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Re: Trouble in Paradise (Score: 1)
 by Mick on Monday, September 04 @ 07:49:47 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | The subject of how does the Holy Spirit operate in the restored presence of God has been the subject of my interest more than 20 years. While the subject is too broad to address completely in a brief response I will share a few salient features.
Jesus says in John 14:26 (ESV)”But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things and bring to your remembrance all that I have said to you.” We see here that Jesus indicates the purposes of the Holy Spirit. They are to teach all things and to bring to remembrance.
The fulfillment of the purpose to teach all things occurred in the First Century. Paul write to Jude, Jude 3 (ESV) “Beloved, although I was very eager to write to you about our common salvation, I found it necessary to write appealing to you to contend for the faith that was once for all delivered to the saints.” We can see from this passage the First Century Christians had the faith that would be delivered far all saints. There would be no further revelation beyond this point. With respect to the “manifestations” of the Spirit, writes in 1 Corinthians 13:9-12 (ESV) “9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when the perfect comes, the partial will pass away. 11When I was a child, I spoke like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I gave up childish ways. 12For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.” Paul looks forward to a time when the manifestations of the Spirit would cease that occurs when the perfect comes and when he will know fully. The noun tense used in this passage suggests an event rather than a person. The fact that Paul later writes about when he fully knows, Jude 3, puts a First Century fulfillment on the end of the manifestations of the Spirit.
What about the second purpose, “to bring to remembrance?” I believe this is the realm where the Spirit works today. This is the phenomena we have all experienced where we connect two passages through an understanding we have not had before or gained insight through the exchange of ideas with other Christians and scriptures are shared as the discussion takes place. We could attribute these things to our own intellects and diligent study of we could see this as the Spirit’s direct action today I a restored presence.
Finally I would ask the question what information any new revelation of God might give us today. If it agrees with what is in the Scriptures it is superfluous: contradicts the Scriptures to be rejected. |
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Re: Trouble in Paradise (Score: 1)
by jmarvin on Monday, September 04 @ 07:52:12 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Hi and thank you for the article.
Your comment: "I was to find out, largely given to a Preterits viewpoint, so my vision caused them to try and shut me down, much like when I tried to tell them that Jesus told me that tithing was under the Law."
If I understand this correctly you received your understanding about tithing through a "vision." My question is simple. Why by vision when by "studying" the issue from Scriptures one can arrive at the same conclusion? Please don't misinterpret my question. At this point I tend to believe that there is much "illumination" given to believers; yet I am dubious when it comes to "visions and dreams," especially when it involves issues that the Scriptures speak on (in my opinion with clarity = tithing) and to which the Scriptures directly tell us to "study to show ourselves approved."
Another quick question. On what basis from your vision alone did you try to communicate the Preterist teaching? Did your vision include a list of verses and their "time" indicated essence?
Thanks again for the article and the thoughts it suggested.
Blessings,
jmarvin
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Re: Trouble in Paradise (Score: 1)
by Starlight on Monday, September 04 @ 12:08:33 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | This issue of visions is a question that I try to understand but struggle with since I have not received such an occurrence. I have good trustworthy friends that relate to me their own accounts of special revelations, whatever form that is I myself can not attest to though. I guess my overriding problem with this idea of visions from the Lord comes from Daniel.
(Dan 9:24 NIV) "Seventy 'sevens' are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy.
What exactly does this mean “to seal up vision and prophecy”?
Do we have here a biblical truth rendering “visions” obsolete after the fulfillment of this scripture? Is it applicable to our question or is it simply a contextual problem that I’m not fully cognizant of. If someone out there has a good exegesis that can explain away the plain text meaning of that statement then I am all ears, otherwise it appears to set the date for sealing up visions as 70AD. I’m not looking for a digression that expounds on what the word “is” means but a straight forward rendering of the contextual meaning. If it means what it appears to say then it seems the case is closed and we need to look elsewhere than a biblical reason for understanding ViaSollertia’s visions. Also if it stands then it lends itself as well to the denial of John’s vision of the Revelation occurring after AD70.
Blessings to all
Norm
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- by Parker on Tuesday, September 05 @ 21:08:51 PDT
- by Starlight on Wednesday, September 06 @ 21:46:05 PDT
- by Parker on Thursday, September 07 @ 06:04:39 PDT
- by Starlight on Thursday, September 07 @ 06:47:26 PDT
- by Parker on Thursday, September 07 @ 07:16:12 PDT
Re: Trouble in Paradise (Score: 1)
by judge on Monday, September 04 @ 21:09:16 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Hi Via...can you explain why you think your vision/s are about the end times?
Thanks |
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Re: Trouble in Paradise (Score: 1)
by tresclavos on Tuesday, September 05 @ 11:34:09 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | You say: "I figured (somewhat lazily) that if I could in fact hear directly from the author of my salvation, that it would save me a lot of effort." "I tried the study route and found that the more I knew the less I grew, and that in the end that true inspiration comes as (super)naturally as breathing. Striving only leads to confusion - rest is found in the reassurance of faith."
---Are you saying that your visions are replacing most of your biblical study? do you measure the accuracy of scripture according to your visions?
The danger in measuring Scripture according to your visions and not the other way around is that scripture is the only one that will be able to tell you which vision is scripturally accurate and which is not. I personally do not believe prophesy and dreams are for today. But if you do then, rule of thumb should be that, although experiences are fine and dandy if they are not scripturally sound then they are just the echoes of biblical errors surfacing through your imagination. I suggest you don't throw the Bible dictionary away yet.
Eric
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