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Our position is "Pre-Trib." We agree with Bible teachers like Chuck Missler, Chuck Smith, Hal Lindsey, Paul and Peter Lalonde, J.R. Church, Jack Van Impe and a host of other popular and scholarly teachers who believe that we are living in "The Last Days," and can expect to see Christ return in our generation. We don't believe in setting dates for His return, but believe it will be soon.
-- Bibleprophecy.com
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by Virgil Vaduva
Those of us who are Fox News fans and were aware of the capture of Steve Centanni and Olaf Wiig who work as journalists for Fox were relieved to find out that both men were released by their terrorist captors in the Gaza Strip and are now alive and well and perhaps on their way back to the United States. While their ordeal was certainly scary and traumatic, it was revealed that as some point during their ordeal they were “converted to Islam at gunpoint” and this is something that is relevant to our Christian faith as well.
When I was reading the story of Steve and Olaf’s release, and Steve was commenting on the supposed conversion, I was struck by a comment he made: “We were forced to convert to Islam at gunpoint… Don't get me wrong here. I have the highest respect for Islam, and I learned a lot of good things about it, but it was something we felt we had to do because they had the guns, and we didn't know what the hell was going on.”[1] Evidently the conversion to Islam did not take, and maybe I am speculating, but I believe the guns perhaps had something to do with it.
What is to be noted about this entire event is the irony missed by Christians in what happened. Any one of us would think regarding a gunpoint conversion, “that is just a stupid thing to do” yet many of us practice and live this kind of conversion every day. Whenever Christianity will emphasize Hell as a motivator for conversion, it is in fact practicing gunpoint conversion. Actually, it is even worse than a conversion at gunpoint, because the danger of death is much more imminent than that of a distant hell-bound future. The very doctrine of Hell therefore, while attempting to be a real incentive for non-believers and believers alike, miserably fails to be the motivator intended to be, mostly because the incentive is not immediate and pressing, therefore causing Christianity to become powerless in the face of new social, cultural and moral challenges; the “you will go to hell” message always fails since it appears primarily to be a perpetually futuristic promise that nobody really gets to experience (unlike a gun pointed to one’s head).
The problem appears to be the same problem that Scot McKnight recently pointed out, in that that fundamentalism is again beginning to grip Christianity in a new way, perhaps as a reaction to the growth and success of postmodern Christianity. What we see as progress and growth, neo-fundamentalists mechanically see as dangerous and antithetical. This is the very nature of all movements that lack grace and love, and without failing, as Scot McKnight rightly pointed out, they always attract “angry, defensive, and mean-spirited individuals.” Such a majority manifestation in the Church will lead to Christianity losing touch with culture and science and leading to the creation of “Christians who are not free in the Spirit but who will be rigid and intolerant.”[2]
What inspired me primarily to write this was my five year old daughter Jade’s recent behavior. She has told me before that she loved me, but today, without being prompted, she crawled up in my arms as I was sitting on the couch, she put her little hands on my cheeks, looked in my eyes and said, “Daddy, I love you.” This was not in response to me telling her the same, but it came from her willing heart and that was what made my heart jump. This is a prime example of why Jesus put the child-like prerequisite on the entrance into the Kingdom of God.[3] The ultimate innocence, love and clear heart; loving like the child that does not ask questions, make demands or asks the question “I love you, but it depends what love mean?”
So then, if such hearts are demanded from us, why then do we continue to put our paradigms of Hell to the heads of our neighbors and demand conversion, or else? Why are we then surprised to see that many conversions are empty and meaningless? Are we not, in fact, letting eternal torment defining our faith, our relationships with friends and family? Has it not become the overriding factor in motivating us to do what is right?
I cannot think of one single instance in which Jesus claimed that being theologically accurate is more important than loving others; in fact, if we are going to be true to the first-century context of Christ’s message, we would be hard pressed to show that Jesus was very concerned with eternal torment. Not once has he used the point of eternal damnation as a motivating factor in one’s conversion. In fact, we see Jesus building relationships with those despised most by the fundamentalists of his days: homosexuals, prostitutes, women, tax cheats, thieves and politicians. This is the very nature of his Kingdom, a system of honest and genuine relationships energized by willing hearts rather than eschatological fears. Going back to the Song of Solomon would best illustrate the story of the Kingdom, in which a loving King pursued those in his Kingdom out of love, not our of vengeance and hate. Tim King bring this idea out best when he says: “God’s Story is the story of a King who came as a humble servant in search of a willing heart. It’s the story of a Lover who went to war with all the forces of darkness in order to rescue his fair maiden and bring her home. God’s Story is the Story of a Romance. A Romance to be embraced.”[4]
[1] Steve Centanni, From a live Fox News interview
[2] Scot McKnight, The Rise of Neo Fundamentalism, http://www.jesuscreed.org
[3] Matthew 18:3
[4] Tim King, Furious Pursuit: Why God will Never let you go, p. 26.
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Virgil Vaduva is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com.
View Virgil Vaduva archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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Re: Hellpoint Christianity (Score: 1)
 by gfl46 on Monday, August 28 @ 18:58:00 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | It is not clear if Steve and Olaf were/are Christians. Perhaps Stephen the apostle could have prevented being stoned to death by refuting his faith.
The question is how does this play with fellow Christians?
Although we live in the shadow of the Kingdom, it would seem that, for Christians, being a martyr is mandatory. |
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- by Virgil on Monday, August 28 @ 19:04:18 PDT
- by tresclavos on Monday, August 28 @ 20:59:34 PDT
Re: Hellpoint Christianity (Score: 1)
 by chrisliv on Monday, August 28 @ 21:22:25 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Yeah,
Those are some good points, Virgil.
I have some siblings in a very rigid denominational branch of the Church of Christ, which seem to be held under a fascist coersion which demands their obedience in matters of doctrine and continued fellowship, or else they're supposedly damned to Hell, like everybody else who is not a member of their particular branch of the CoC.
Oh, Happy Day... NOT!
Peace to you,
C. Livingstone |
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- by Virgil on Tuesday, August 29 @ 18:46:25 PDT
- by chrisliv on Tuesday, August 29 @ 20:23:22 PDT
Re: Hellpoint Christianity (Score: 1)
by Dana_Nathan_Salsbury on Monday, August 28 @ 22:45:08 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | I bet Steve Centanni has been doing some serious soul-searching, whether he is a Christian or not.
This is the reason I've spend the last five years writing a book on the eschatology of hell from a preterist perspective. (I just received the author's copy, and will get a batch of about 250 in a month.)
I think revisiting our understanding of hell is a vital piece of the preterist reformation, so I narrowed my focus into this area to try to help people understand this area. I'll be blogging the announcement soon! (I'm not very good at keeping a secret, huh?) |
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- by Mick on Tuesday, August 29 @ 04:33:17 PDT
- by Dana_Nathan_Salsbury on Tuesday, August 29 @ 07:24:47 PDT
Re: Hellpoint Christianity (Score: 1)
 by chef (kontoya@earthlink.net) on Tuesday, August 29 @ 03:50:26 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Hi Virgil and everyony!
I deeply appreciate your position and statements, though I believe that Yashuah did indeed make inference to damnation. Even when old Israel was being formed as a nation, she was given notice that she had better stay on tract “or else…”
On the other hand, I do not see the traditional Catholic and Fundementlist's concept of “Hell” (or Satan) in the scriptures either.
In His Service<
Chef Tony
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- by Donone on Tuesday, August 29 @ 07:26:52 PDT
- by Virgil on Tuesday, August 29 @ 10:53:45 PDT
- by chef on Tuesday, August 29 @ 14:10:55 PDT
- by Terry on Tuesday, August 29 @ 18:02:41 PDT
- by chef on Wednesday, August 30 @ 03:24:45 PDT
Re: Hellpoint Christianity (Score: 1)
 by watton (jdwatton at yahoo com) on Tuesday, August 29 @ 09:48:14 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | No hell and building relationships with homosexuals and prostitutes may be popular in some quarters! Although I believe that Jesus would certainly reach out to both these groups I know of no example of Jesus interacting with homosexuals or tax cheats either unless we mean corrupt tax collectors. As an Orthodox christian I think that they have the right balance on eternal punishment. Basically, it is peoples choice to remain consistently and irrevocably opposed to God's love. The Orthodox also have the hope that even that can change since prayers are offered for the dead.
jdwatton |
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- by Virgil on Tuesday, August 29 @ 10:51:49 PDT
- by chef on Tuesday, August 29 @ 11:16:32 PDT
- by watton on Tuesday, August 29 @ 11:41:47 PDT
- by chef on Tuesday, August 29 @ 12:21:42 PDT
Re: Real relief, from a real danger (Score: 1)
by Terry on Tuesday, August 29 @ 18:35:33 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | When God told Adam there was a danger in eating the fruit, God was in love warning Adam of a real and actual danger. He was not threatening him. One may say God's warning wasn't very effective, but it certainly was based in reality...Adam did die, i.e.-was seperated from God. Isaiah 592 (among other passages) teaches the cpnsequence of sin is sepration from God. I am unaware of any passage that teaches anything different...ever. I am also aware that the messiah provided an effective sin offering which brought forgiveness of sin, e.g-reconciliation to those who responded to the gospel. Acts and the epistles record the movement from being "lost" to being "saved" by many who did respond to that glorious gospel. Those being cleansed were added to that community of cleansed who, by virtue of that cleansing, became a new temple for the dwelling place of god in the spirit. They clearly were in a different relationship with God than those who did not respond...Jew and gemtile alike. Thsoe who constituted that living temple received the coming of the Lord and the restitution of his dwelling to THEIR lives BECAUSE of their cleansing in the messiah. Those who were not cleansed did not. In the close of Revelation's promised picture of the fulfilled kingdom, there is a city (the place God inhabits) and there is an outside (where he does not abide). The gates are open, but they are not the same state of existence. I certainly believe and teach the physical interpretaions of flames in teahcing of hell misses the point. But I also think to fail to grasp the astonishing horror of being absent from His presence is to disregard the true horrific danger from the beginning...a danger created by sin in the human heart. It was this seperation which prompted the deep agony of the words "my God...My God...why have you forsaken me?!" I know of no teaching that this danger has been removed and has ceased to exist. Say there is a disease which is fatal, and a cure is discovered. The cure is capable of healing the effect of the disease. If sin is a cause,i.e.-disease, the Christ has paid a great price to provide healing through his atoning sacrifice. How many sin? All of us, even after 70 A.D. How many are seperated from God? all who sin. How many of can be saved from seperation and restored to his presence through his love? All are offered this invitation. Those in the Eschaton were in real danger, and the apostles WARNED them. They warned them because the danger was real, and they loved them. The apostles did not become warped and focus exclusively on the warning of danger, though they spoke often and graphically about it. They spoke of God's loving provision which needed a response. Though the destruction of Jerusalem is past, people still sin. And sin still seperates. And seperation from God is a torment which will I perceive will progressively grow as awareness of the horror of that reality is realized. We need to, in love, preach the good news that people do not have to experience this because God has loved them and has provided for their healing at astonishingly great cost, which was a manifestation of that love. Let us not threaten people as if the danger is the focus of the Gospel,, but let us not ignore the danger. And let us joyfully announce God's loving provision. We live in the greatest city on earth, but there are those outside the city. Life out there isn't the same. Let us be motivated by the same love as the shepherd who spoke of the one lost sheep and its worth.
Think I'll finish this tomorrow. |
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- by Terry on Tuesday, August 29 @ 18:43:41 PDT
- by Virgil on Tuesday, August 29 @ 18:48:48 PDT
Re: Hellpoint Christianity (Score: 1)
by valensname on Tuesday, August 29 @ 19:29:31 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | I agree a shotgun faith is not a real faith, especially not the one God seeks with us. And I agree that Christianity over the centuries has overemphasized the negative more than the positive. I recently finished Tim King's new book and was reminded after reading Virgil's article that Tim once told a story of one woman who perceived the good news of Christ as going to hell if one doesn't repent etc...that is sadly the view of many people.
While I agree that several passages speak of being outside of the kingdom, I don't see how one can get around Scripture, that to my understanding, speaks of real eternal (forever and ever) separation from God. For example in Daniel 12, if at the resurrection some are raised to everlasting life and this means a conscious eternal existence in Heaven then how can the opposite, everlasting abhorrence, not also be a conscious eternal existence? There are other places that speak of this, Matthew 25. I don't see how one can have everlasting life in Heaven then those outside the kingdom not have everlasting punishment and that not be a type of forever existence unless the life in Heaven is not real either? I don't see it being consistent hermeneutics if everlasting life means forever existence in Heaven (blessed are those that die in the Lord) but everlasting punishment (which would mean not blessed are those that die not in the Lord).
Glenn |
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- by leo724 on Wednesday, August 30 @ 18:22:07 PDT
- by Virgil on Wednesday, August 30 @ 18:48:28 PDT
- by davo on Wednesday, August 30 @ 20:34:53 PDT
- by valensname on Wednesday, August 30 @ 19:05:33 PDT
- by leo724 on Wednesday, August 30 @ 21:02:00 PDT
- by valensname on Thursday, August 31 @ 10:50:07 PDT
- by davo on Thursday, August 31 @ 11:54:51 PDT
- by valensname on Thursday, August 31 @ 19:35:02 PDT
- by davo on Thursday, August 31 @ 23:11:55 PDT
- by valensname on Friday, September 01 @ 09:51:45 PDT
- by davo on Friday, September 01 @ 20:12:52 PDT
- by valensname on Friday, September 01 @ 20:21:40 PDT
- by leo724 on Friday, September 01 @ 06:15:09 PDT
- by valensname on Friday, September 01 @ 14:52:52 PDT
Re: Hellpoint Christianity (Score: 1)
 by davo on Tuesday, August 29 @ 21:39:02 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) |
Virgil: Whenever Christianity will emphasize Hell as a motivator for conversion, it is in fact practicing gunpoint conversion. Which is ironic when one considers the "emotional" tag that pretty much gets dragged out straight away when anything remotely "anti-performance based" [of which "belief" is] for redemption is floated.
Why and how the "condemnation" and "damnation" or "destruction" language Jesus uses cannot be read in its historical context, i.e., in a prêteristic light, staggers me; especially considering how much we in the "fulfilled" camp raise its validity as a relevant hermeneutic elsewhere. IF "eternal life" = the joy of relationship with God that we have through Christ, then obviously the lack of such is to our sorrow, loss and determent in life, whether we realise it or not – and THAT is a reasonable explanation of "eternal life" when you take into account Jesus' definition of it as per Jn 17:3; 1Jn 5:13; Jn 20:31. In other words – "eternal" carries with it a strong qualitative undertone of TOTALITY as it relates to experiences in life, to the negative or to the positive, as per one's believing. Example: IF we take into account a prêteristic rationale then we will find that – if they repented and believed they would be saved [Lk 13:3-5], saved from what? – saved from the forth coming wrath of the Parousia, which brought to TOTALITY the judgment on the OC world.
davo
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