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God spoke through a word of prophecy in May 1968, and said, ‘I have chosen you to usher in the coming of My Son.’
-- Pat Roberston, Sermon on Satellite Network Seminar
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Preterism: When Were We Saved?
Posted on Tuesday, May 23 @ 19:08:11 PDT by Paul Strange Sr. |
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Several who write on the subject of the extent of the atonement take the position that God's predestination applied only to pre-70 A.D. humanity, and that it had nothing at all to do with the saving of specific individuals. However, would any Christian doubt that the millions who have been saved in the generations since the 70 A.D. passing away of the old age were saved because of the death of our Lord on the Cross? Is there any other provision for eternal salvation in any time period or place? When, then, were we saved?
I grew up among folks who had what was often called "testimony meetings". Sometimes, a Christian would stand and tell when he or she came to be converted to Jesus Christ. Like most evangelicals (especially among the Arminian version)my point of reference for personal salvation was derived from when someone came to be aware that he or she was confident of having the Son of God as Savior and Lord. That was what "being saved" was. Dwight L. Moody and Dr. Billy Graham would have been greatly pleased!
Over time, my thinking changed about the nature of being "saved". Being saved became increasingly centered in the objective foundation of salvation, the shed blood of the Lamb of God. It ceased to be primarily focused upon personal feelings and/or any of the many things that are regarded among Christians as some sort of outward evidence that one actually believes in God through Jesus Christ. The only truly saving act in history was the Cross.
This is why the issues related to "Calvinism" are significant. They have much less to do with what personality one loves or which personality one despises. Some popes could probably compel a Christian to admire the Church of Rome, and others could compel devout Romanists to become Hugenots! The objective basis of true salvation has to be considered with utmost seriousness, more than who we decide to like, or who we decide to dislike.
That wonderful hymn "When I Survey the Wondrous Cross" so beautifully connects, in my own heart and mind, the objective suffering of our Savior, and His gracious impartation to me of the joy of being granted repentance unto life. The Cross actually saved all who are called in all generations, although we personally and individually discover His grace to us, as we live in time and history!
The last several verses of the 8th Chapter of the Book of Romans clearly connected predestination with eternal salvation, rather than some kind of special use. This is true, whether one limits the persons predestined to folks up to 70 A.D., or not. To teach that the doctrine of election had nothing to do with being saved certainly seems to me to be a super-imposition of anti-calvinistic bias upon the clear and plain words of the text. If God exercised His right to distinguish between humanity then, how has He changed, post 70 A.D.?
The reasoning that it takes to deny that God has chosen persons for salvation, and not others, has never been satisfactorily answered, when I see people imputing so much into plain words, in order to get there. I will be as happy as any universalist if, upon my death, I discover that God has a secret plan to make sure that nobody actually fails to enter His Kingdom. For all who believe on the Name of Jesus Christ, who are all believers by the Biblical definition, I can only ask, "when were we saved?". Since it was at the Cross, then I have to accept the ill repute of those who see salvation as a product of the natural human will. Since I am firstly a sinner saved by grace, and since I do not believe that Christians are more or less than Christians for accepting nor rejecting predestination, may God be glorified, is my prayer. To all believers in all generations, many of whom cannot buy into the idea that God would deliberately distinguish, I rejoice that we commonly confess that Jesus Christ is Lord. Since my freedom to grow in Christ is not the product of any good thing in me, I cannot judge or condemn anyone!
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Re: When Were We Saved? (Score: 1)
 by mazuur on Tuesday, May 23 @ 19:43:20 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | I wonder just how many times we are going to "have it out" here concerning this topic?
No offense Paul, but it's clear to me that, even though you think you understand the proper exegesis of Romans 8 maintained by a preterist "anti-Calvinist", you have never read a thorough exegesis by any preterist "anti-Calvinist". This is made clear to me by statements from within your article such as "take the position that God's predestination applied only to pre-70 A.D. humanity". That statement shows me that in fact you do not have an understanding of what us Preterist "anti-Calvinist" hold to concerning Romans 8.
If you ever do choose to read a complete exegesis to have a clear understanding of how we (or at least me) approach Romans 8 (predestination and election), I would recommend Max King's book "The Cross and the Parousia of Christ". I forget the exact pages, but he spends around 50 pages or so dealing verse by verse with Romans 9-11 (including chapter 8 from within that construct).
You might have been looking for another "shoot-out" from an "anti-Calvinist", but....sorry, just don't think I can muster up the energy for another round. Who knows though, maybe someone else who isn't tired of debating this topic will jump in.
Blessings,
Rich |
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- by paul on Thursday, May 25 @ 08:31:27 PDT
- by paul on Thursday, May 25 @ 12:17:59 PDT
- by mazuur on Thursday, May 25 @ 13:57:42 PDT
- by paul on Friday, May 26 @ 06:35:47 PDT
Re: When Were We Saved? (Score: 1)
 by Virgil on Wednesday, May 24 @ 05:47:54 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | | Paul, these are good and kinds thoughts - I really appreciate you taking the time. I already dealt with many of these issues in past articles. I cannot pretend to know all things or be able to answer all questions, so I am eager to read and study anything you wish to add to this conversation. And I can say a hearty "Amen" to I do not believe that Christians are more or less than Christians for accepting nor rejecting predestination, may God be glorified, is my prayer. |
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- by paul on Thursday, May 25 @ 08:32:00 PDT
- by paul on Thursday, May 25 @ 12:30:13 PDT
Re: When Were We Saved? (Score: 1)
 by davo on Thursday, May 25 @ 11:30:26 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Paul Strange Sr: Several who write on the subject of the extent of the atonement take the position that God's predestination applied only to pre-70 A.D. humanity, and that it had nothing at all to do with the saving of specific individuals.
G'day Paul,
Seeing as I for one have recently written on such things here I would like to bring some clarity to your characterization of what I am assuming you in part may be referring to, and possibly not fully grasping.
Predestination from my Pantelist position has to do specifically with REDEMPTION, and those "called" to administer its fullness. Since I take an inclusive approach to the scope of God's redeeming power in Christ and a prêteristic understanding as to the time frame for such, I see Christ's millennial reign [AD30-70] as the fulfillment of redemption for ALL.
Now having said that, that does not mean there is no call of God post Parousia – there is; however, it is different in nature. Those called of God into His service are called with the fulfilled message that redemption HAS been secured, "now come walk in its benefits".
Paul Strange Sr: The last several verses of the 8th Chapter of the Book of Romans clearly connected predestination with eternal salvation, rather than some kind of special use.
When you understand "eternal salvation" in terms of service to God through relationship with Christ then no one would argue with that, but you totally miss the significance of the first-fruit believers' role in the outworking of God's redemption on Israel's behalf – and THIS was specific or "special" as verse 36 of the 8th Chapter of the Book of Romans makes clear:
“For Your sake we are killed all day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.”
Paul Strange Sr: To teach that the doctrine of election had nothing to do with being saved certainly seems to me to be a super-imposition… If God exercised His right to distinguish between humanity then, how has He changed, post 70 A.D.?
Again, if perhaps you are referring to my article on ELECTION then you are grossly misunderstanding what I have written. The distinction was, God specifically chose some to outwork His redemptive plan – that plan has now been fulfilled in Christ and his first-fruit saints, but as I said in my article:
Any divine calling and empowering subsequent to the Parousia was and is for the maintaining and testimony in worship and witness of this grand reality.
Now THAT is not saying election has naught to do with salvation – in fact the very opposite.
Paul Strange Sr: The reasoning that it takes to deny that God has chosen persons for salvation, and not others, has never been satisfactorily answered, when I see people imputing so much into plain words, in order to get there.
One clue to perceiving a satisfactorily answer is to realize that "salvation" is NOT talking about avoiding some post death calamity but is about service to God in this life – SOME are "called" into this service while others are not – THAT is God's sovereign call.
Paul Strange Sr: I will be as happy as any universalist if, upon my death, I discover that God has a secret plan to make sure that nobody actually fails to enter His Kingdom.
It would be a real shame and a travesty IF it took till your death to find this most marvelous truth; that is no "secret plan" at all, but rather maybe just hidden in a traditional mindset. "Entering the Kingdom" was and is about entering into the call of God for service – it entails coming to the realization of one's forgiveness; again, realization and forgiveness both being the sovereign work of God – it had a
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- by paul on Thursday, May 25 @ 12:22:14 PDT
- by davo on Thursday, May 25 @ 12:39:35 PDT
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