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Exclusive: Beyond Creation Science: How Preterism Refutes a Global Flood and Impacts the Genesis Debate – Part 9
Posted on Thursday, March 30 @ 07:04:21 PST by Timothy P. Martin

PlanetPreterist Columns by Timothy P. Martin
The History of the Bible-Science Conflict
Once we have grappled with the nature of biblical language in early Genesis we are ready to consider the historical context of the modern Bible-Science conflict. That order is important, because history documents how Bible-Science conflicts arose after Christians misread or, perhaps more accurately, over-read Scripture. Conrad Hyers explains it this way:

When one surveys the history of science/religion controversies, one finds linguistic confusion to be a major source of misunderstanding and conflict.[1]

This problem is not unique to Christians on the Bible side of the Bible-Science conflict. Scientists can also misread or even over-read the scientific evidence on the science side. They have been proven guilty of making false claims, too. Those entrenched on either side of Bible-Science controversy point to the historical errors of the opposing side. Each side belittles their opponents’ credibility in order to win the contemporary argument.

We should first recognize that Christianity has a long history of interaction with scientific progress. It is no coincidence that scientific development occurred primarily within cultures heavily impacted by Christianity. The Christian doctrine of creation provides a cultural worldview. Those impacted by this worldview believe our world is intelligible and predictable – the two basic presuppositions of modern science. Christian and non-Christian scientists accept the broad worldview of creation that Christianity provides.

Even though Christianity arguably provides the worldview necessary for scientific progress, the history of Christianity’s relationship with scientific development is not always characterized by peace and harmony. The historical points of collision offer much wisdom to apply to the current manifestations of the Bible-Science conflict. Many Christians live with such a narrow grasp of history today they often miss the valuable lessons history has to offer. The Bible-Science conflict did not arise in the 20th century with the Scopes Trial. Nor did it appear on the scene as a result of Darwin’s Origin of Species in 1859. The debate goes even further back than Lyell’s geological column in his Principles of Geology of 1830.

There is no greater history lesson for the Bible-Science debate over the flood and creation account in Genesis than the clash between geocentrism and heliocentrism.

Geocentrism vs. Heliocentrism

Today, most Christians assume resistance to heliocentrism came from the Roman Catholic Church. While the Roman Church, through the Inquisition, was particularly violent in dealing with a few of Copernicus’ followers, many leaders of the Reformation opposed heliocentrism as well. What’s more, they rejected heliocentrism on biblical grounds. One historian puts it this way:

All branches of the Protestant Church – Lutheran, Calvinist, Anglican – vied with each other in denouncing the Copernican doctrine as contrary to Scripture; and at a later period the Puritans showed the same tendency. Said Luther, “People gave ear to an upstart astrologer who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the sun and the moon. Whoever wishes to appear clever must devise some new system, which of all systems is of course the very best. This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred Scripture tells us that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth.[2]

Notice how Martin Luther presents his biblical argument against heliocentrism. He argues from the plain-literal statement of Scripture. This example shows how the plain-literal hermeneutic did not begin in the 20th century. Luther read Joshua 10 as if it were a science textbook on astronomy. All the geocentrists were adamant: the Bible defines the motion of celestial bodies. They claimed that those who accepted heliocentrism rejected what the Bible teaches.

We can draw a clear analogy. This same plain-literal hermeneutic is precisely the Creation Science method when it comes to the Genesis flood. They believe the flood account defines our understanding of geology just as the geocentrist believed Joshua 10 defines a Christian understanding of astronomy.

Perhaps it could be argued that Creation Science methods, as we know them now, find their roots in medieval forms of exegesis. Take, for example, the plain-literalism inherent in the famous idea of transubstantiation. Defenders of this medieval doctrine were adamant. “This is my body” meant the literal, physical body of Jesus. The Reformation reinterpreted (Luther) or overturned (Calvin, Zwingli) that idea. But it never developed a coherent hermeneutic capable of integrating the Copernican revolution. Later theologians simply accepted Copernicus and rejected Luther’s appeal to Joshua 10.[3]

The clash between astronomy and theology was probably inevitable, but we should learn lessons from history. Those who read the language of the flood account in scientifically precise, plain-literal terms may be repeating a historic mistake. Don Stoner puts it this way:

It seems that Galileo’s critics were guilty of the same mistake which many of the present-day young-earth creationists have made. That is, they took the plainest reading of Scripture as the “true” one and disallowed any alternative interpretations.[4]

Much needless damage to Christianity could have been avoided if the theologians who held cultural power in the 16th century had listened to Galileo’s defense. He argued that heliocentrism is perfectly compatible with the Bible, when the Bible is understood on its own terms. Consider Galileo’s famous statement:

The Scriptures are given to teach us, not how the heavens go, but how to go to heaven.[5]

Even John Calvin seemed to recognize the nature of biblical language demanded limits to what Christians should claim regarding astronomy in his own day:

I have said, that Moses does not here subtilely descant, as a philosopher, on the secrets of nature… Moses makes two great luminaries; but astronomers prove, by conclusive reasons that the star of Saturn, which on account of its great distance, appears the least of all, is greater than the moon. Here lies the difference; Moses wrote in a popular style things which without instruction, all ordinary persons, endued with common sense, are able to understand; but astronomers investigate with great labor whatever the sagacity of the human mind can comprehend.[6]

What Calvin says, in principle, is profoundly relevant. Even though the Bible peaks of the sun and moon as the two great lights the biblical statement does not invalidate astronomer’s claims that Jupiter is greater in size than the moon. Calvin implies that Genesis was not given as a “scientific” account which defines our knowledge of the universe. Creation Scientists could learn a great deal from Calvin’s embryonic idea. Could his approach apply to geology in our day as he applied it to astronomy in his?

Christians now widely agree that Copernicus’ theory, Galileo’s telescope, and Kepler’s mathematics present no threat to the Biblical Faith.[7] God’s majesty and creative power are magnified by Copernicus’ breakthrough. The historical lesson seems clear: the Christian Church has been hindered far more by ignorant zeal than true scientific advancement. Yet this lesson raises a contemporary question. Does the same principle not apply to the debate over the age of the earth? Could it be that those who categorically dismiss an ancient earth and universe as ungodly compromise with Darwinism have simply over-read their Bible? Are they making the same mistake as the geocentrist theologians of the 16th century?

One key issue relating to the Copernican situation that is yet to be resolved in the modern Bible-Science debate is how, exactly, the biblical text of Scripture and the scientific evidence, whether astronomy, biology, geology, etc., will be allowed to interact with each other.[8]

Is the biblical text self-sufficient all by itself without extra-biblical information? Is scientific evidence useful as a wider context around biblical teaching much like we use cultural and historical context as an external aid in our understanding of Scripture? Or are Bible and Science at all points disconnected to one another – on different tracks so to speak? Are they friends or enemies? Is it legitimate for them to relate as guides, offering helpful advice one to another? The Copernican experience seems to warn against a rigid isolationist approach.

Preterists are in a position to see how the right answers to these questions are crucial. The answers have theological implications. Preterists use extra-biblical cultural context to help the Bible student understand the expectations of the original audience and original meaning of Scripture. A Preterist interpretation of New Testament prophecy inevitably relates to the historical events of A.D. 70. But everyone should note well that the Bible does not say anything about what actually took place in A.D. 70. Only extra-biblical sources tell us what happened in A.D. 70![9]

In many cases preterists have to inform futurists of what the Bible records in biblical prophecy as well as the historical events of A.D. 70. They then rely upon the combined weight of biblical statements and historical facts to lead others into a preterist view of prophecy. History and Scripture harmonize. That is what makes preterism such a powerful case. Would there even be such a thing as preterism if nothing happened in A.D. 70 and the temple remained standing for centuries beyond the generation of Jesus and the disciples?

There is no essential difference if we use well-ascertained scientific discoveries as an external context to Scripture. Preterists should understand the value of harmonizing our understanding of Scripture with our knowledge of God’s universe. After all, the same God who created the universe speaks through Scripture. The Bible and Science may be distinguishable, but they cannot be contradictory. When they harmonize, the case for Christianity is compelling in all dimensions.

The philosophical questions behind the Bible-Science debate are numerous and present huge ramifications as they did even back in the 16th century church-astronomy conflict. Devotees to Creation Science often fail to even recognize these questions highlighted in the conflict over astronomy. The reality to them is that when a Christian accepts any scientific discovery that points to a universe older than 10,000 years old, no matter how strong, he is accepting Darwinist evolution by definition. Henry Morris makes this plain:

From our point of view, however, any interpretation which accommodates the standard system of geological ages is a clear-cut compromise with atheistic evolutionism, and it is very sad that Christians who profess to believe the Bible as the Word of God will not acknowledge this... The Bible clearly teaches the special creation of all things in six literal days (e.g. Exodus 20:8-11) and a worldwide cataclysmic destruction by the flood (e.g. II Peter 3:3-6), and it is only special pleading and strained exegesis that can force any other meaning on the Biblical record.[10]

Preterists should note once again how 2 Peter 3 is used as “the proof” for a global flood. Notice how a plain-literal approach to the creation days is logically connected to a plain-literal reading of 2 Peter 3.

One great irony at this point continuously played out through Creation Science literature is a complaint laid against their old-earth creationist brethren. Writers in the Creation Science movement repeatedly accuse old-earth creationists of bending Scripture to conform to modern scientific thought dating to Lyell and Darwin. (They do this even though non-literal approaches to the Genesis creation account were presented by such esteemed theologians as Augustine more than a thousand years before Lyell and Darwin.) All old-earth creationist views are painted with the same anti-Darwinist brush, because any age for the universe beyond 10,000 years is simplistically equated with Darwinism. J. Ligon Duncan and David Hall represent many Creation Science writers when they say:

We should be wary of those who accommodate Scripture to current scientific theory, because he who marries the spirit of the age will be a widower in the next.[11]

Creation Science advocates should take their own advice! The Creation Science system is nothing if it does not accommodate Scripture to a particular scientific theory. What’s worse is this accommodation is ostensibly founded on the authority of God’s Word! This syncretism with Adventist flood geology sets Creation Science up for a repeat of the same disastrous fall we see in the Copernican example. The overriding problem with the public, tenacious commitment to a young-earth and universe is simple. If their science or underlying hermeneutic goes down, it inevitably takes the reliability of Scripture and integrity of Christianity down with it – publicly.

To make matters worse, those dedicated to Creation Science seem blissfully unaware of how their method of handling Scripture is dominated by scientific priorities and concerns. Hyers points out the incongruity of it all:

To attempt to turn this [Genesis creation account] into a scientific statement is to distort its intention and character. Not only does one miss the theological punch lines; one gives the passage a secular reading – and then perhaps complains about the rising tide of secularism in evolutionary science![12]

Hyers notes an important point. On the one hand Creation Science advocates often demonize accepted scientific opinion. They complain that modern science’s commitment to an ancient earth and universe is anti-Christian from beginning to end and has taken over our Western Civilization. On the other hand these same advocates demand Genesis communicates in scientifically precise language and concepts – a demand that springs from the scientism of the modern age!

The history of the Bible-Science debate, if nothing else, should sober zealous advocates of Creation Science who direct many serious charges against their old-earth brethren. Bernard Ramm offers a thought-provoking question:

Does not the most hyper-orthodox among us realize that most of the views he now holds about the Bible, medicine, science, and progress which he thinks are so orthodox, safe, sane, and Biblical, would, a few centuries ago, have cost him his life?[13]

Time tends to erode the sharp criticism that fearful Christians have leveled against solid scientific advance. I’m convinced that neither time nor reputable science is on the side of Creation Science. It’s not that hard to imagine a day to come in a century or two (prayerfully, it may be much less time) when Creation Science opposition to belief that our universe is ancient will be viewed the same way we look back at those Christians who vehemently objected to heliocentrism. As the saying goes: Those who refuse to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

Both Scripture and history support a local flood interpretation. There is no denying a local flood view will also have implications for the debate over the age of our universe. No matter how that debate goes in the future, I’m convinced of the basic truth of one powerful insight in William Jennings Bryan’s testimony during the Scope’s Trial of 1925. Responding to Clarence Darrow’s assaulting questions, Bryan said, “The Rock of Ages is more important than the age of rocks.”[14]

This is heresy from the viewpoint of Creation Science. They teach that if rocks are indeed millions of years old, then the “Rock of Ages” is a fraud. Morris claims that Bryan lost the case in the court of public opinion largely because of infidelity on this point. He writes:

Probably the most serious mistake made by Bryan on the stand was to insist repeatedly that he had implicit confidence in the infallibility of Scripture, but then to hedge on the geological question, relying on the day/age theory. He had been warned against this very thing by George McCready Price.[15]

Creation Science resets the trap which snared medieval Christianity in the days of Copernicus. It is past time to admit that geology, like heliocentrism in astronomy, threatens Christianity only if we read the language of Genesis according to a plain-literal method. As I hope to show, there may be a much better way to read the disputed portions of Genesis. For now it is enough to point out that antithesis to unbelief does not require anti-intellectualism. Nor does it require a denial of well-established observational reality in God’s physical creation. Creation Science ideology blocks a rich understanding of our Bible and powerful knowledge of God’s creation.

Don Stoner sums up a reasonable viewpoint that could serve as a baseline guide as Christians progress in their study of God’s Word and God’s works:

Science and theology are both fallible systems for seeking truth. God’s Bible and His universe both supply unerring facts. Our own theories should be built upon the facts from both God’s Bible and His creation. Even then, we must allow for the possibility that we might still make mistakes. Perhaps the most important lesson we should learn from this is humility.[16]

Once Christians grasp the wisdom of Stoner’s advice, they will be able to face any Bible-Science conflict in a manner that brings praise to God. We cannot expect the Kingdom to progress and grow in our day if we continue to engage in the folly of the past.

To be continued…

Copyright 2005 by Timothy P. Martin. All rights reserved. Reprinted by Permission

[Beyond Creation Science (2nd Edition) will be available at the Planetpreterist bookstore]

[1] Conrad Hyers, The Meaning of Creation: Genesis and Modern Science (Atlanta: John Knox Press, 1984), p. 16.

[2]J.N. Larned, The New Larned History (Springfield: C.A. Nichols Publishing, 1922), Vol. 1, p. 576.

[3]For a well-written textual analysis of Joshua’s Long Day as well as another presentation of a local-flood view, see Ralph Woodrow, Noah’s Flood, Joshua’s Long Day, and Lucifer’s Fall: What Really Happened? [1984] (www.ralphwoodrow.org).

[4]Don Stoner, A New Look at an Old Earth: Resolving the Conflict Between the Bible & Science (Eugene, OR: Harvest House, 1997), pp.34-35.

[5] As quoted by Augustus H. Strong, Systematic Theology (Valley Forge: Judson Press [1907] 1985), p. 222.

[6] John Calvin, Commentaries on the First Book of Moses Called Genesis, Chapter 1, Section 16. Available online at: http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol01/htm/vii.htm. It should be noted that some historians claim Calvin was united with Luther in opposition to heliocentrism. Others claim he was not. Perhaps the solution to this debate is that Calvin simply changed his mind on the issue in his later writings.

[7] There is still a small band of geocentrists standing by their reading of Joshua 10 and the ancient teachings of the Church on the matter. Not surprisingly, they are generally dedicated advocates of Creation Science ideology.

[8] For a masterful theological explanation of the classical “Two Books” understanding of the organic relationship between natural and special revelation see part two, “The Good Creation” in Gordon J. Spykman, Reformational Theology: A New Paradigm for Doing Dogmatics (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, 1992).

[9] There is strong evidence that the entire New Testament was written by A.D. 70. See John A. T. Robinson, Redating the New Testament (Wipf & Stock Publishers, [1974] 2000) and Kenneth L. Gentry, Before Jerusalem Fell: Dating the Book of Revelation (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision [1989] 1998).

[10] Henry Morris, History of Modern Creationism (San Diego: Master Book Publishers, 1984),p. 329.

[11] J. Ligon Duncan III & David W. Hall, The Genesis Debate: Three Views on the Days of Creation, ed. by David G. Hagopian (Mission Viejo: Crux Press, 2001), p. 30.

[12] Conrad Hyers, The Meaning of Creation, p. 22.

[13] Bernard Ramm, The Christian View of Science and Scripture (Grand Rapids: Eerdmans, [1954] 1978), p. 22.

[14] See www.reasons.org/resources/ apologetics/notable_leaders/index.shtml#bryan (2005).

[15] Henry Morris, History of Modern Creationism, p. 66.

[16] Don Stoner, A New Look at an Old Earth, p.36.



------

Timothy P. Martin is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com. Tim lives in Whitehall, Montana and is a minister at Covenant Community Church. Tim can also be reached via his website at http://truthinliving.org

View Timothy P. Martin archives

Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.


 
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Re: Beyond Creation Science: How Preterism Refutes a Global Flood and Impacts the Gen (Score: 1)
by Virgil on Thursday, March 30 @ 07:16:21 PST
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Tim, what an excellent piece! I am so glad you pointed out the Geocentrism vs. Heliocentrism debate and also made a note of the contradictory actions of Creation Science regarding Genesis and science. On one hand they completely reject the obvious quantum physics determinations that the universe is billions /millions of years old, yet they use that same science and branches of it to justify a "scientific" language in Genesis.

Great article!


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Re: Beyond Creation Science: How Preterism Refutes a Global Flood and Impacts the Gen (Score: 1)
by paul (freebird@comcast.net) on Thursday, March 30 @ 08:12:33 PST
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Tim, this is absolutely magnificent!!!! Thank you so much. Also, I deeply appreciate the respect and courtesy shown by your and your opponet in recent exchanges on this vital debate.

I sent this to many folks, both in the Faith, and not, who I have e-communication with. What a help.

paul richard strange sr
dadprs@hotmail.com


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Re: Beyond Creation Science: How Preterism Refutes a Global Flood and Impacts the Gen (Score: 1)
by Islamaphobe on Thursday, March 30 @ 09:06:12 PST
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I join Virgil and Paul in heaping praise upon this article. Brilliantly done, Tim! Hard-hitting with nary a wasted word. It merits wide circulation. And thanks very much for the Galileo quote: "The Scriptures are given to teach us, not how the heavens go, but how to go to heaven."

John S. Evans


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Re: Beyond Creation Science: How Preterism Refutes a Global Flood and Impacts the Gen (Score: 1)
by mazuur on Thursday, March 30 @ 09:52:15 PST
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Tim,

I second, and third, and ... the motions. EXCELLENT!!

Rich


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Re: Beyond Creation Science: How Preterism Refutes a Global Flood and Impacts the Gen (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Thursday, March 30 @ 16:35:33 PST
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Thanks for the feedback, guys.

In all fairness, everyone should realize that this work is as much from Jeff Vaughn as me.

Did you guys notice the preterist idea of viewing Scripture and history in harmony - i.e. comparing the prophetic statements with what historically took place in A.D. 70? Preterism is about the harmony between the Bible and history. That was Jeff's insight. We both think, in the new book, this idea will be a powerful argument for preterism to old-earth creationists who already understand the harmony principle in different ways.

Blessings,

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org


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Re: Beyond Creation Science: How Preterism Refutes a Global Flood and Impacts the Gen (Score: 1)
by doughoist on Thursday, March 30 @ 18:49:33 PST
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“Then God said, “Let there be light”; and there was light. And God saw the light, that it was good; and God divided the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness He called Night. So the evening and the morning were the first day.” Genesis 1:3-5, NKJV.

In this verse we find a narration of a day of creation. This passage defines a day as an evening and a morning. So on day one God created light, separated it from darkness and that was day one. The day and the events of that day are defined.

Later on, we see the same concept of an ending and a beginning, being called a day, as in the phrase "the day of the Lord." This being used not of a literal day but of the ending of one age and the beginning of another or the end of one kingdom and the beginning of another.

This however, was not the case in the story of creation. The day was defined. Are we, by our less than perfect rationalization to try and rectify an evening and a morning, day one, to actually be thousands or millions of evenings and mornings. And to do that just to justify our religion to science?

You look forward to " a day to come in a century or two (prayerfully, it may be much less time) when Creation Science opposition to belief that our universe is ancient will be viewed the same way we look back at those Christians who vehemently objected to heliocentrism"

I on the other hand look forward to the day when science so called so, is brought to the realization of the One who is. God defined the days of creation and science would do well to listen.

I do understand and believe that the language of the Bible can be used symbolically. But in this case, I do not believe it to be so nor do I believe that science in later years will be able to withstand its truth.



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Re: Beyond Creation Science: How Preterism Refutes a Global Flood and Impacts the Gen (Score: 1)
by Malachi on Monday, April 03 @ 17:40:14 PDT
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The fatal flaw in Tim's attempt to impugn the historicity of the Genesis account of creation is that God created the earth and cosmos with apparent age . That is, God created the universe as a working, functioning system from its inception. Rivers already had channels carved to the sea; light, which takes millions of light-years to travel here, was created here already and did not require time to travel here at all. The same is true of rocks, soil, seas, and Adam: all were created with apparent age. Thus, science can extrapolate the age of rocks all it wants, but God created them "old" from the day they were made. Sedimentary rocks did not need long ages of heat and pressure to mold sediment to stone, igneous rocks did not need to be spewed from earth's core, and so forth. God made them instantly by speaking them into existence. Time was not required. So the whole dating system is flawed. Besides, as I understand it, the whole carbon-dating theory is sort of like firing a rifle at a target: a little error over short distances doesn't effect its overall accuracy, but over long distances a small measure will put you miles wide of the mark! Thus, when "science" claims that the earth is billions of years old its credibility is about "nil" because its inaccuracy grows more pronouced the further it attempts to penetrate the distant past.

Again, Tim is leading readers away from faith in the inerrancy of God's Word, motivated by attempts to reconcile the Bible to modern science. But modern "science" has shown that in the area of origins it has nothing to offer but the most extravagant theories (can an intelligent person really believe the universe resulted from a big bang, with no guiding intelligence behind it at all? - if that is the best "science" can do, why is Tim so instant that we abandon our Bibles in favor of science? That is the question I would like answered).

I feel the whole course of Tim's inquiry is destructive; his methology unsound, his hermeneutics unsupportable; his presuming upon the sciptures dangerous. I wish Tim would find a more profitable area to devote his talents.


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Re: Questions Beyond Creation Science .... (Score: 1)
by Windpressor (Giddi_one) on Tuesday, April 04 @ 02:16:29 PDT
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********

After looking at the text in Genesis 1-2, I have questions. Where does anyone get such dogmatic "answers" from the obvious anomalies and apparent ambiguities in the account?

I am not a scholar of Hebraic idiom and have not yet researched into various commentaries. Just reviewing the text by comparing translations at biblegateway.com and an interlinear (at -- http://www.scripture4all.org/), some puzzlements jump into my ponderation.

Consider thus a decent translation of Genesis 1:1 --

In beginning, God created sky and land.

Observations: 1) the interlinear Hebrew renders "In beginning" without definite article "the" which is inserted in the translations.
2) the same Hebrew word for heavens(eshmim) is also translated as "sky" and "air"(as in "birds of the air" -- 1:26,28,30 and 2:19 NIV).
3) the similar use of "land" and "earth" has already been noted in the articles and comments.

Now the questions:

1) How long is "a beginning" or "the beginning" or "in beginning"?

2) Is the Genesis beginning the absolute beginning of existent universe/reality? Or is it a beginning of specifics from or after an ending or other demarcation?

3) Is 1:1 just introductory expression for expanded recapitulation in further detail outlined in the later creation verses?

4) How do we account for vegetation and seed germination occurring during *day 3* before the *day 4* creation of "lights", "stars" and the "two great lights"? (1:11-19)

5) When does the account of 1:9,10 occur? Entirely on day 3 without any transition from day 2? During a timeout between? What respective proportions of the day were used for sea/land deployment from the divided waters and later sprouting vegetation?

6) When God spoke to create, did He speak slowly and take a full 24 hours to say the particular day's conditions into formation? Why would he have to take a whole day?

OK, I am sure these and other questions have been discussed in numerous forums. Are there any good sensible resolutions?

G1

----------


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Re: Beyond Creation Science: How Preterism Refutes a Global Flood and Impacts the Gen (Score: 1)
by Englishman on Tuesday, April 04 @ 21:29:44 PDT
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Tim,

You have re-awakened me to this issue when I saw you mention the name of George McCready Price.

I was so impressed by his literary style that I sought to obtain every book of his that I could get my hands on (that was several years ago.)

I think the view of Genesis 1 as "apocalyptic genre" (a la Milton Terry and others, and as published on your website) is significant and merits worthy consideration.

With regard to the "day" and the "evening and morning" of the Genesis account I have always observed a rather remarkable omission in the text. Nowhere can I find that there was ever an "evening and morning" on the seventh "day". It is no where stated!

So by the same hermeneutic that has been applied to the priesthood of Melchizedek wherein it is concluded that Melchizedek had an everlasting priesthood because of an omission with regard to his genealogy, I can thereby also conclude that the “seventh day” of Genesis 2:2 was typical of an everlasting day (more than “one revolution of the earth”) because of an omission with regard to its sunset. So here I see in Genesis a “day”. A very very long “day”.

Also, I came across something perplexing to me. After reading in Genesis that God had "ended his work" and had "rested" I was surprised to learn that God was yet "still working". Or at least "went back to work". Because it was said by His Son in the first century "My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.” Does this Work shed any light on the original intention of the Genesis account? Is this first-century creative work subject to any “24-hour rule”? Is God still “creating”? Can the purpose, intention, and relevance of the Genesis account be better understood after carefully considering the “creation of God” mentioned Revelation 3:14?

I agree that it is indeed highly unlikely that a "dinosaur" or a "geological column" was in view when Genesis was penned. Rather, a populated Holy City was the anticipatory event. This is evidenced by the "day" which has no recorded sunset.

Englishman



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More Correct Science? (Score: 1)
by valensname on Wednesday, April 05 @ 05:26:18 PDT
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Is this more correct science or attempts to discredit the Bible?

Thought you might find it interesting.

Jesus Could Have Walked on Ice, Scientist Says

http://news.yahoo.com/s/space/20060404/sc_space/jesuscouldhavewalkedonicescientistsays



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Re: Beyond Creation Science: How Preterism Refutes a Global Flood and Impacts the Gen (Score: 1)
by Englishman on Wednesday, April 05 @ 10:34:58 PDT
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Tim,

I think the portion of your title that reads "How Preterism Refutes a Global Flood ..." can easily be misconstrued.

The results of the Noachian Deluge is summed up by: "the world that then was, being overflowed with water, perished".

All of the preterist literature that I have seen most emphatically confirms a Flood consistent with the above summation. And I have never seen in the preterist paradigm any element that would "insist" upon a "local" flood.

On the contrary, there is plenty of evidence to support a "recent" and global (as opposed to local) flood. I will never forget the time when I learned about the wooly mammoths that have been dug up in China in the previous few centuries. There were so many tusks protruding from the ground in northern China that many Chinese made a living digging them up and making and selling ornaments from them. Many of these mammoths were found buried in ice, complete with some flesh still remaining on their bones and the remains of food in their stomachs! Not a hundred of them, not two hundred, not five hundred, not a thousand of them, but some sixty-six thousand (66,000!) of these mammoths have been discovered. This is reported in a book called In Search of Adam. There is simply no way these huge mammoths in such large numbers could have been so abruptly preserved without a cataclysmic catastrophe by water, either by a collapse of "water rings" that once circled the earth, or a polar shift, or whatever. And the tusks of a wooly mammoth were found right here in the United States not too long ago!

I have learned that “modern science” is not wholly trustworthy with their pronouncements because they have a profile that usually colors their enthusiasm for certain facts that they come across.

Again, there is nothing in the preterist paradigm that would compel the adoption of a miniature Deluge.

Englishman



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Kenneth Gentry on Genesis 1-2 (Score: 1)
by valensname on Friday, April 07 @ 21:14:52 PDT
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Has anyone purchased or listened to Kenneth Gentry's sermons on Genesis 1-2?

kennethgentry.com

Six Day Creation in Genesis (15 CDs)


Sermonic exposition of Genesis 1 (15 Sermons)
(1) The Importance of Genesis #1.
(2) The Importance of Genesis #2.
(3) Absolute Creation.
(4) The Days of Genesis.
(5) God's Creative Word.
(6) Creation of Light and Atmosphere.
(7) Creation of Land and Plant Life.
(8) The Order of Life. *
(9) Creation of the Sun, Moon, and Stars.
(10) Creation of Sentient Life.
[NOTE: The following tapes are the same as Set #13]
(11) Nobility of Man. #1
(12) Nobility of Man #2.
(13) Dominion Mandate #1.
(14) Dominion Mandate #2.
(15) Genesis 1 & 2: Contradiction?

Just wondering for a review before possibly making the $60 purchase!

Glenn


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Re: Beyond Creation Science: How Preterism Refutes a Global Flood and Impacts the Gen (Score: 1)
by Englishman on Saturday, April 08 @ 14:02:59 PDT
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Tim and all,

If there is still time to respond in this thread, can you tell me how you see this:

(1) In Genesis 1:31 it says that "evening and morning were the sixth day".

Did God go back to work on the eighth day?

(2) In Genesis 2:1 it says that on the seventh day "God ended his work" and "rested".

Did God rest on any day other than the seventh day?

You answers will give me a better appreciation for what you are seeing.

Englishman




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