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Exclusive: Beyond Sound Hermeneutics: How the Regional Flood Theory Violates Hermeneutical Norms and Presumes Upon the Silence of the Scriptures
Posted on Saturday, March 11 @ 07:13:48 PST by Kurt Simmons

PlanetPreterist Columns by Kurt Simmons
I have a great affection for Tim Martin and would never want to say or do anything to hurt him. To know the man is to like him. However, I felt the articles he has posted recently required a response, for they seem to me highly dangerous. Having studied his arguments and examined his evidence, I will conclude that Tim’s methodology is unsound, his conclusions unsupported, and his departures from the Biblical text irresponsible. In posting this brief reply to Tim’s articles, I hope he will back away from the subject of the regional flood and devote his energies to a topic more worthy of his many talents. It is also hoped that my frank statement about his position will not prevent us from being friends.

I. There is no Logical Corollary between Preterism and the Scope of Noah’s Flood

Tim Martin has written a small book and posted a series of articles in which he hopes to persuade Preterists that it is inconsistent to believe in fulfilled eschatology and hold to a belief in a global or universal flood. Tim asserts that

“Preterists committed to Creation Science may object, but the Olivet Discourse must be taken globally once a commitment to plain literalism is made in Genesis…“If the flood of Genesis 7 is global by virtue of the language in the account, then consistency demands the Great Tribulation must be global as well! The language and physical phenomena is every bit as global in Matthew 24 as it is in Genesis 6-9.”

Thus, according to Martin, a literal reading of Genesis governs our reading other portions of scripture merely because similar language is used. According to Martin, to read the flood account literally is to accept the hermeneutic of dispensationalism. In fact, readers will be surprised to learn that according to Martin 

“The global flood idea is essentially a dispensational futurist concept born out of the method of literalism.”

Martin goes even further and claims that the Creation Science movement, whose purpose is to defend the Bible’s creation account, has caused the prevalence of dispensationalism today. Martin states he hopes through his book and articles:

  “To demonstrate a methodological, theological and historical correlation between the rise of Creation Science ideology and the prevalence of dispensational theology in America during the 20th century.”

  Martin is wrong. Dispensationalism was conceived by John Nelson Darby before Darwin’s theory was even written. Darby began preaching dispensationalism in the 1830s, Darwin did not publish his Origin of Species until 1859. dispensationalism in America predates Creation Science by almost one hundred years. The prevalence of dispensationalism is a completely separate phenomenon unrelated to Darwinism, which Creation Science attempts to refute. There is no connection between Creation Science and dispensationalism other than the fact that many who believe the one also believe other. However, millions of people believe in the literal account of the flood who have no eschatological convictions at all. Moreover, many Postmillennialists, Amillennialists, Historicists, and Preterists also believe in the literal flood account. Yet they have completely different eschatological perspectives than Dispensationalists.  Far from condemning belief in the flood, the wide diversity of people embracing it suggests that a literal understanding of the text is the intended one and that it is both natural and reasonable.   Tim Martin argues that proponents of the global flood err in interpreting the historical narrative of Noah’s flood literally. For Martin, because literalism is the hermeneutic of dispensationalism and dispensationalism is wrong, therefore to interpret the flood account literally is wrong.

  “The real question Morris and Whitcomb ignore, because of their dispensational bias, is whether or not a scientific-literal reading of Genesis 6-9 in regard to the global language is appropriate.”

Martin asserts, but does not prove, that Morris and Whitcomb, the founders of Creation Science, ignore this question because of their Dispensational bias. However, a literal reading of the flood account in no way depends upon a Dispensational bias. People have been reading the flood narrative literally for thousands of years. For example, Josephus, who lived two thousand years ago and wrote the history of the Jews, understood the flood narrative literally – and he read it in the Hebrew tongue, thus destroying Martin’s assertion that it is only because of inadequacies in our English translations that we blunder into a literal reading of the text. Here is what Josephus states: 

Now God loved this man for his righteousness; yet he not only condemned those other men for their wickedness, but determined to destroy the whole race of mankind, and to make another race that should be pure from wickedness…he turned the dry land into sea; and thus were all these men destroyed: but Noah alone was saved.[1]

Martin’s assertion that a literal reading of the flood account somehow grows out of dispensationalism may thus be seen to be groundless. dispensationalism arrived in history less than 200 years ago. Clearly, one can interpret the flood account literally quite apart from dispensationalism or any other school of eschatology. dispensationalism wrongly applies a literalistic hermeneutic to prophetic and apocalyptic passages of scripture to be sure, but not to historical narratives. In historical narratives, a literal reading and interpretation is normally correct, granting the usual allowances for the habits and figures of speech. History would not be history if it was not read literally; it would be allegory or legend. 

For Martin, the notion that Preterism refutes the global flood is “a call to consistency.” He feels that the logical implications of Preterism require one to abandon belief in the global flood. Martin states:

  “The way we read the flood account is logically related to our eschatological paradigm…There is a clear parallel between the flood of Noah and the parousia of Jesus.”

This is mistaken. Jesus also likened his A.D. 70 parousia to the destruction of Sodom. (Luke 17:26-30) Is how we read the Sodom account logically related to our eschatological paradigm? Is a literal reading of the destruction of Sodom inconsistent with Preterism and require that we abandon a literal interpretation of that text? Hardly. There is no logical connection between Preterism and the flood narrative such as makes them stand or fall together. Preterism may refute futurism, dispensationalism, and other schools of eschatology, but it does not refute the global flood. The scope of Noah’s flood is an issue totally separate from Preterism and eschatology. Preterism no more refutes the global flood than it refutes the destruction of Sodom, the tower of Babel, or any other historic narrative of Genesis. Nothing about Preterism requires that one abandon belief in the flood. Questions about the flood, the literalness of the Genesis creation account, and the age of the cosmos involve issues of hermeneutics, not Preterism.  It is a logical fallacy to attempt to join these issues as if what one believes about one of them somehow determines what he must believe about the other. 

II. The Genesis Flood Account is Historical Narrative, not Apocalyptic; Eschatological Interpretive Methods are Inapplicable to the Flood

Tim Martin’s argument that one’s eschatological paradigm must determine what he believes about the flood (and age of the earth and universe) is based upon the unproved and erroneous premise that the flood narrative is of the same class of literature as New Testament passages about the coming of Christ. Tim alludes to this when he states:

  “Any satisfactory interpretation of Genesis must be preceded by a determination of the class of literature to which it belongs. Preterists should understand the importance of first determining the class of literature we find in early Genesis.”

  By identifying Genesis as belonging to the same class of literature as prophecy and apocalyptics, Tim hopes to make these unrelated subjects stand or fall together. Moreover, he also wants to apply the interpretive principles used for the figurative language of prophecy to the flood and creation accounts. He hopes by doing this to avoid Genesis’ language making the flood world-wide and the “evenings and mornings” of the six days of creation twenty-four hour periods.  

One of the key elements of prophetic passages is the use of cataclysmic imagery to describe merely local or regional judgments visited by God. For example, Isaiah prophesied God’s judgment upon Babylon thus: 

Behold, the day of the lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it. For the stars of heaven and the constellations thereof shall not give their light: the sun shall be darkened in his going forth, and the moon shall not cause her light to shine….Therefore I will shake the heavens, and earth shall remove out of her place, in the wrath of the Lord of hosts, and in the day of his fierce anger. Isa. 13:9-13

A candid reading of the passage will show that the universal language employed by the prophet was merely figurative and poetic. It is not intended to be understood literally. It is intended merely to suggest overwhelming nature of the crisis God was sending upon Babylon; the judgments were so great, it was as if the world were coming to an end. And for Babylon, of course, it was. And although Babylon suffered the judgment of God, none of the cataclysmic events described by Isaiah actually occurred.   It is this aspect of the prophetic method that Tim assumes is applicable to the flood account. But Is Genesis of the same genre of literature as prophecy and eschatology? One has only to compare the flood narrative with prophetic passages from Ezekiel, Daniel and Revelation to see that we are dealing with totally different types of literature. They have virtually no points of contact in terms of literary style or genre. The flood account is historic narrative, not poetic, prophetic or apocalyptic. Prophecy foretells the future, Genesis recounts the past; the prophets employed poetic exaggeration, metaphors, and symbols; Genesis simply relates facts. The only thing they have in common is the universal language. But, because they are of totally separate genre, they must be interpreted differently. Thus, we understand that the cataclysmic events described in the destruction of Babylon were merely figurative, they did not occur. But the flood account of Genesis being historical narrative, we interpret the language literally; the flood actually happened.

  This fact alone proves that they are not of the same genre. In prophecy the cataclysmic events are figurative and never literally occur. In Genesis the cataclysmic event (the flood) is literal and an admitted fact. Tim admits the flood occurred, but wants to limit its scope. But classifying Genesis as apocalyptic does not provide a basis for limiting the flood’s scope. If Genesis is apocalyptic, we would interpret the flood itself figuratively, not merely its scope. This is fatal to Tim’s position. His position is destroyed if Genesis is not apocalyptic and its language is understood literally. It is destroyed if it is apocalyptic, for then the flood itself must be taken hyperbolically. Either way, Tim’s whole construct falls to pieces and collapses upon the ground. 

III. The Historical Purpose and Context of the Flood Account must Govern Interpretation and Translation of the Text

If Genesis is not apocalyptic, do the definitions of words and non-literal figures of expression justify limiting the flood’s scope? Tim relies a great deal upon the different definitions attached to words and the exaggerated nature of many figures of speech to argue for a regional flood. Of course, this is tantamount to an admission that Genesis is not of the same genre as apocalyptic prophecy. If the flood account were apocalyptic, he would not need to argue from word definitions and common expressions to make his case, for the apocalyptic nature of the language would be cause alone to destroy its literalness. But that aside, let us examine a few of these words and expressions. 

Tim makes much of the word Hebrew word “erets”, arguing that it often signifies merely land, country, or region. The word erets occurs repeatedly in the flood account, which the translators of the Authorized (King James) Version, men of imminent learning and ability, chose to translate “earth,” not land or country. (Gen. 7:17-24) In fact, we are not aware of a single translation that uses “country” or “region” in these places. Tim Martin stands alone. Why do the translators decide in favor of “earth” and not some more limited definition of the word? Because the context virtually compels them to.

And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man: All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. Gen. 7:18-22

No responsible translator confronted with this language would choose anything less than earth in this context. The same word occurs in the creation account, saying “In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.” (Gen. 1:1) The same heavens and earth of Gen. 1:1 are mentioned in the flood narrative in Gen. 7:19. What principle of hermeneutics suggests that the word be given the more restrictive definition urged by Tim? Clearly, there is none for and much against. Merely because a word can be translated differently does not mean that it ought to be. Arguments made from novel translations of Greek and Hebrew words are always suspect. Why should we listen to a man untrained in Hebrew and with no translating skills or experience when he argues for a novel translation attested by no other Bible in print? A little common sense goes a long way in assessing arguments based upon the definitions of words.

  Tim cites examples from the Old Testament to show that expressions of global proportions are sometimes used for regional things or events. For example, he cites the prophet Zephaniah, who prophesied the coming judgment upon Judah, saying the Lord would consume all things from off the land, including man and beast. (Zeph. 1:2, 3) However, Zephaniah is an example of the hyperbolic language of the prophets, whose custom was to couch prophecies of coming wrath in terms pregnant with poetic exaggeration. The highly figurative nature of the prophet’s speech is apparent upon its face and therefore cannot serve as a comparison with the flood account, which is of a totally separate genre. Tim cites Ezra 1:2: “This is what Cyrus king of Persia says, ‘The LORD, the God of heaven, has given me all the kingdoms of the earth.’” Tim asks “Was the kingdom of Cyrus global?” He answers, “No, the term ‘earth’ is used in a regional way.” Tim also cites Habakkuk 1:6: “I [God] am raising up the Babylonians, that ruthless and impetuous people, who sweep across the whole earth to seize dwelling places not their own.” Tim then asserts “The consistent literalist has a real problem with this text. Archaeology teaches Babylonia was a regional power.” According to Tim, these examples show that the flood could have been merely regional because these kingdoms were allegedly regional.

  The short answer to this line of argument is that “could” is not proof it “was.” Before we decide that universal language is used figuratively, there must be evidence of this intent. But Tim has no such evidence. For Tim, the possibility that the language can be figurative is all the proof required to make it so. Furthermore, the context in which these expressions occur is different from the flood. Cyrus’s expression is a form of exaggerated speech common to monarchs. It is a relative expression, and is not intended to be understood in strictly literal terms. The same with Hab. 1:6; this is a figure of speech and probably not a single person would press its literalness. But the flood account is very different. There, the literalness of the account is driven home over and over again by the precision of the language employed: the waters increased greatly, they prevailed exceedingly; all the high hills under the whole heaven were covered, as were the mountains; every living thing upon the face of the earth died; all flesh, all in whose nostrils was the breath of life, and every living substance was destroyed. Clearly, this account lacks the casualness common to everyday expressions like those cited by Tim. By repeating again and again the breadth of the flood and its devastation, God intended to impress upon the reader the universal nature of its scope: every living thing died. 

Tim points to language in Jesus’ Olivet Discourse likening the events culminating in the destruction of Jerusalem to Noah’s flood. (Matt. 24:36-41) Tim argues that since Christ’s coming in A.D. 70 was not global, therefore, Noah’s flood need not have been global. Tim adds that Jesus’ comparison of his parousia to the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah is proof that the flood was regional. (Lk. 17:28-36)   In other words, if A = B and B = C, then A = C. There are two errors here. First, Jesus referred to Noah’s flood because of the suddenness with which it caught its victims unaware and the completeness of the destruction it brought, not to indicate its size or scope. Daniel 9:26, which indicates the end of Jerusalem would come like a flood, is to the same effect. Jesus’ reference to the overthrow of Sodom and Gomorrah is similar, showing both the suddenness and completeness of the devastation wrought. If anything, Jesus’ citation to these events shows their historicity; that they were not mere legends or exaggerations, but actual events whose literal record in the scripture can be implicitly trusted.  Applied to Jerusalem, these events foreshowed the utter desolation that would be wrought upon the Jews: Jerusalem would be like Sodom, reduced to ash, and wiped from the face of the earth as by the flood. Second, Christ’s eschatological coming was not merely limited to Judea, but was world-wide: it brought ruin and devastation throughout the inhabited earth (Roman empire) as Christ avenged the quarrel of his church and gospel. There were great famines and plagues in Rome and Asia; there were earthquakes that devastated cities in Asia minor; Rome experienced uprisings in foreign lands and civil wars at home; there were four emperors in the space of a single year, whose wars wrought devastation to all of Italy and Rome; Romans watched in amazement as the capital and temple of Jupiter was burned to ash in combat between the forces of Vitellius and Vespasian’s brother, Sabinius; last of all, Jerusalem and Judea were completely destroyed. Thus, quite contrary to Tim’s assertions, Christ’s coming in the first century was indeed felt and seen world-wide.

  In II Pet. 3:5-7, the apostle compares the coming of the Lord to the flood. Tim argues that because the desolation attending Christ’s coming was not universal, therefore the flood was not universal. This argument is faulty. The heavens and earth in II Pet. 3:7-13 do not speak to the physical creation and its elements at all. The heavens and earth Peter refers to are spiritual and covenantal, not physical and terrestrial; they speak to the world system that inhered from the fall of the race, iof which the old covenant was part; the new heavens and earth speak to the regeneration of man in Christ which would attend the removal of the former world system in which there was no forgiveness of sins, of which the destruction of the city and temple were signs.  Because the heavens and earth of II Peter 3:7-13 are not physical, the language of this epistle cannot help Tim. Besides, the removal of the elements of the old covenant system was as universal and complete in the spiritual realm as Noah’s flood was in the earthly; not one element of the old system remains before the face of God; all were wiped clean away forever. (Cf. Heb. 8:13; 12:26-28) Thus, if any thing, II Peter argues for the universality of the flood, not its circumscription. 

IV. The Authority and Silence of the Scriptures

One hermeneutical principle that Tim does not use or respect – and is why his teaching is dangerous and should be driven from the church - is the authority and silence of the scripture. Tim consistently leads his readers to put faith in things the Bible does not say and which cannot be proved. He is guilty of the same sort of thing the Catholic Church has done for centuries. The Bible mentions nothing about the perpetual virginity, immaculate conception, and assumption of Mary. It says nothing about purgatory or infant baptism; it is silent about the relics of saints and prayers requesting their intercession. These and hundreds of other things have all found permanent home in the Catholic Church by its failure to respect the authority and silence of the scriptures. Tim does the same.

  The Bible expressly states that eight souls were saved from the flood. (I Pet3:20) Everything else in which there was the breath of life died. (Gen. 7:22) The biblical account is very explicit in describing the nations that sprang from Noah’s sons after the flood. (Gen. 10) The account concludes, stating, “These are the families of the sons of Noah, after their generations, in their nations: and by these were the nations divided in the earth after the flood.” (v. 32; cf. Acts 17:26) The Bible then provides the account of Babel and how mankind was of one language, and how God confounded the language “of all the earth,” and they were scattered abroad from thence upon the face of the globe. (Gen. 11:1-9) In other words, the Bible provides a complete account of the origin of every nation of men after the flood. Tim cannot name one nation of people that the Bible does not attribute to Noah’s sons. He cannot point to one language that was not confused at Babel. Tim cannot produce one verse of scripture – not one - that teaches more survived the flood than eight. Yet, he does not scruple to affirm what the Bible does not say.

  The Bible expressly states that “in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is.” (Ex. 20:11) Could anything be clearer? Yet, led away by science falsely so-called, Tim chooses to disregard the divine account and place faith in men; he believes the earth took more time to create than six days and that the earth is perhaps billions of years old. Indeed, he is not even sure that the creation account of Genesis speaks to the creation of the cosmos, but posits that it may be an allegorical account of the creation of national Israel! It is difficult to imagine a more irresponsible treatment of the scriptures. This man should not be teaching the Bible until he learns how to remain within the confines of the scriptural text.  The first rule of hermeneutics is that words are to be given their usual and accepted meaning unless context requires (not permits) otherwise. Context determines interpretation. The mere presence of heavens and earth in Genesis is no reason to assume they are figurative and covenantal. Nothing in the narrative even remotely suggests a covenantal context. To the contrary, the pattern is first the natural then spiritual; God created the natural heavens and earth in Genesis, the covenantal heavens and earth of the Old Law in Exodus, and the new heavens and earth wherein dwelleth righteousness in A.D. 70.

  Tim’s methodology produces the most extravagant, speculative, and dangerous doctrines. One person I know who has come under Tim’s influence has been led to believe that God created other men before Adam and Eve. (After all, where did Cain get his wife? See the email I received, below)[2] Using Tim’s methodology of “speaking where the Bible is silent,” one could affirm that God created life on other planets and that Mars is colonized by little green men! I do not say that in jest. Gary DeMarr recently published a series of articles refuting the notion that the “nephelim” of Gen. 6:2 were aliens.[3] Once we venture beyond “book, chapter, and verse” anything becomes possible. 

Tim cites Milton Terry and F.W. Farrar as also making statements about the non-literalness of the Genesis creation account to bolster his deviation from scripture. But, these men made their remarks in the late 1800s when Darwinism was overthrowing the faith of millions and churchmen were everywhere in retreat before the advance of scientific claims about the origin of life. These claims have now all been discredited and Christians are returning to their Bibles. That Terry and others were temporarily led astray is no reason we should do so. 

The Bible charges that “If any man speak, let him speak as the oracles of God.” (I Pet. 4:11) Another way to say this is “to speak where the Bible speaks and be silent where the Bible is silent.” This is not to say that every conclusion must be spelled out in black and white by the Bible. There are some things the Bible does not tell us. We are not told where Cain got his wife. However, the Bible is clear that all men derive their descent from Adam; that God “hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth.” (Acts 17:26; cf. Rom. 5:12-19; I Cor. 15:21, 22)  A scriptural answer would be that Cain married his sister, not that there were other men created before Adam and Eve.

  Did the flood overwhelm every acre of dry land under the whole heaven? We can only answer this question by reference to the Bible. If we venture to say, No, we speak purely upon human authority. Were the days of the Genesis’ creation account longer than the 24 hour “evening and mornings” we know today? If we say, Yes, we speak from ourselves, for this can nowhere be shown or proved by the word of God. And so it goes, at every turn Tim leads readers away from the word of God unto the doctrines and teachings of men.

  If we were to place a circle upon paper and ask Tim to write in it all the verses showing the earth is materially older than the sum of generations from Adam to ourselves, that the earth took longer to make than six 24 hour days, that more were saved from the flood than eight, and that the flood was merely local or regional, at the end of the day that circle would still be empty. Why?  Because there are no verses in the Bible which teach these things.

  The question thus becomes, where do we stand, upon the solid rock of scripture and “thus saith the Lord”, or the speculative notions of men that presume upon the silence of the word of God?

  Kurt Simmons www.preteristcentral.com

  NOTES:

[1] Josephus, Antiquities, I, iii, 2; Whiston ed.

[2] The email I received and which prompted me to respond to Tim’s articles, is printed in full below: “Tim, Alright buddy, you've been holding out on me! I have just spent a couple of hours reading from the Genesis Proclaimed Association resource article section from Genesis 1-9 and have I had a paradigm shift! Either you have known about this stuff for a while and thusly have been holding out on me, or you may not be aware of all this stuff yet. In the latter case I'll excuse you but I would opt for the first option -- that you are up on some of this stuff. The reason I think so is your use of the term "covenant couple" referring to Adam and Eve. 

I'll tell you what I think now and how I got there. I started onto this line of thought from a link of the article you referenced from the Sonlight curriculum. That is the first link below "The Age of the Universe." Your idea of "Old Earth Creationism" has stuck with me all these months and this article just clinched it for me. As the article suggests, Genesis 1-2 describes largely the creation of the Biosphere and not the whole universe, which was created previously! That makes a lot of sense.  In addition to that, the other thing that was bothering me was the idea that humans pre-dated Adam and Eve. It was actually --------------------- at the conference last year from whom I first heard this idea, and at the time I thought it was pure nonsense. Anyhow, with various other material I've come across this idea was gnawing at me lately. So today I thought that I would check out where Cain got his wife. And that led me to the second link below, and a whole lot more. So you are correct in that Adam and Eve were not the first humans, but rather were the first covenant couple (albeit a direct creation of God) and there were humans created by God before this time -- hence the two creation accounts in Gen. 1 and 2. The flood was basically local/regional in destroying the disobedient covenant community, as well as whatever Sumerian population which was in the affected area. You've got to read some of those articles (if you haven't already). I am now Much Enlightened,

Your friend M ----

[3] Gary DeMarr, Who Were the Nephelim, Aliens, Demons, or Just Plain Folk? (in four parts), Aug. 2005, Biblical WorldView Magazine.



------

Kurt Simmons is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com.

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Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.


 
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Re: Beyond Sound Hermeneutics: How the Regional Flood Theory Violates Hermeneutical (Score: 1)
by Writerx on Saturday, March 11 @ 08:31:23 PST
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Kurt,

Awesome article. You said it perfectly. What I continued to notice as I sifted through Tim's book was that he never once found the "final blow" he was looking for. All he managed to accomplish in his entire book would was promote the *possibility* of a local flood. Heck, I'll give him that. It is possible. But highly improbable.

Another thing I noticed was that in every other OT account of destruction that he sighted in correlation to the flood account, the focus of that judgement was clear. In every case I can recall the actual target of wrath was clearly imlied, if not expressly stated. However, in the Genesis account, the book begins with men falling in love with women, their hearts becoming wicked, God shortening their lifespan and so forth. Whereas in other places specific nations or peoples are referenced, the flood account begins with traits of all mankind, and it logically follows that when everything with the breath of life dies off, we would assume it really means EVERYthing.

I also liked the bit about falsely connecting dispies with the global flood. It seems everyone who supports his position has mystically adopted a similar viewpoint. I only got interested in creation science and all that stuff AFTER I became a preterist, and have since found nothing but mild annoyance in the dispensational nature of most of the speakers. I simply have to take great care to ignore most of the theology when I listen to them. They also boldly proclaim that because the flood was global, so the Parousia must be; but it never occured to Tim, I guess, that their interpretive methods are what is in error. So when he hijacks their mentality and forces it on anyone who holds to the global flood it weakens his argument.

Anyway, good work. I also enjoyed your article on the History of Preterism.

-A.J.


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Re: Beyond Sound Hermeneutics: How the Regional Flood Theory Violates Hermeneutical (Score: 1)
by Virgil on Saturday, March 11 @ 08:41:36 PST
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Kurt I will read your article in depth again, but one passage caught my attention:

The Bible expressly states that “in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea and all that in them is.” (Ex. 20:11) Could anything be clearer? Yet, led away by science falsely so-called, Tim chooses to disregard the divine account and place faith in men; he believes the earth took more time to create than six days and that the earth is perhaps billions of years old. Indeed, he is not even sure that the creation account of Genesis speaks to the creation of the cosmos, but posits that it may be an allegorical account of the creation of national Israel! It is difficult to imagine a more irresponsible treatment of the scriptures.


Despite your appeal to the Bible, you are silently inserting an assumption in your statement above. Before I even heard of Tim Martin or knew who he was, it occurred to me that the vast majority of people group up the creation of all things in the first two or three verses of Genesis. There is no evidence for God creating "the heavens and the Earth" at the beginning of the six day creation cycle. It is quite possible and likely for a long period of time to span between the creation of the universe or the Big Bang and the creation og life on Earth.

In fact, taking such a strong position on a six-day creation of the entire universe puts Christianity at odds with everything we know scientifically to be true and makes us all look like we are ignorant regarding the most basic things of science. Every single piece of evidence found so far indicates that the universe itself, including Earth are millions of years old, unless you are suggesting that God is a deceiver and only made the universe look millions of years old in order to fool us all.

You brought up some good points, but you are approaching this argument simplistically, and it is not that simple in my opinion.


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Thanks Kurt (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Saturday, March 11 @ 11:55:40 PST
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Kurt,

Thanks for your substantial critique of my work. I appreciate the time and effort you put into it, and I do still consider you my friend and brother. I look forward to seeing you again in a few months.

A full response to your article is being prepared.

Blessings,

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

P.S. Virgil, nice addition with the spell-check feature!! Cool!


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Re: Beyond Sound Hermeneutics: How the Regional Flood Theory Violates Hermeneutical (Score: 1)
by Islamaphobe on Saturday, March 11 @ 11:59:22 PST
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As one who views Kurt's book on Revelation with great admiration, I am saddened to find him to so deeply committed to the principle that biblical accounts of history are to be treated as unchallengeable historical fact and that if those accounts conflict with scientific and other historical evidence, then these other sources must be wrong. Kurt is evidently quite sure that he knows the mind of God as expressed in biblical texts and interpreted by himself.
Was Lot's wife really turned into a pillar of salt? Did the serpent literally speak to Eve? Was Noah six hundered years old when the floodwaters came to earth? Which of the individuals mentioned in Genesis was the ancestor of the American Indians? And going beyond Genesis, did Samson literally derive his phenomenal strength by avoiding haircuts? Did the sun literally stop in midday and delay going down for twenty-four hours as described in Joshua 10:13? Is the story of the fiery furnace in Daniel to be understood as being literally true in every detail? And on and on.

Kurt's article is a very good illustration of the deep divide that exists between biblical creationism and intelligent design. There are many, myself included, who believe that Darwinism has been discredited; but that does mean, as Kurt seems to assume, that this means that the earth cannot be billions of years old and that biblical creation is historically confirmed because the Bible says so.

Kurt opens by writing that he has great affection for Tim Martin. Later on, he writes that Tim's "teaching is dangerous and should be driven from the church." Well, at least he does not recommend burning at the stake. And while I hope that Kurt is correct in stating that "Christians are returning to their Bibles," I assert that a lot more people will take the Bible seriously with regard to such matters as the divinity of Christ and the genuineness of OT and NT prophecy when they are not required to believe that its accounts of history must be taken to be literally 100 percent correct.

John S. Evans




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Re: Beyond Sound Hermeneutics: How the Regional Flood Theory Violates Hermeneutical (Score: 1)
by Ed on Saturday, March 11 @ 20:39:11 PST
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Although Tim Martin has made it abundantly clear that he doesn't want to get lost in the science of it all, he just wants to let scripture interpret scripture, I would like to offer to ANYONE willing to actually look at the science, as presented by Christians who believe in an old earth, behind the flood. Here is the link: http://www.answersincreation.org/floodlist.htm


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Re: Beyond Sound Hermeneutics: How the Regional Flood Theory Violates Hermeneutical (Score: 1)
by alberto on Saturday, March 11 @ 21:51:27 PST
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It is not necessary that the flood was planet-wide, for Josephus's observation to have been correct--that God wiped out "all of mankind". Halley's Bible Handbook makes the point that all of the earliest habitations and cities of men were in the same general area, between the Tigris and Euphrates Rivers. A catastrophic local flood, perhaps in conjunction with a subsidence, would fill the bill nicely, without straining common sense or credibility. It certainly would have destroyed their "whole world".

I find it implausible that Mt. Everest, 6 miles high, was covered by water. This would have put Noah six miles above Mt. Ararat--and dead of oxygen deprivation, to boot.


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Re: Beyond Sound Hermeneutics: How the Regional Flood Theory Violates Hermeneutical (Score: 1)
by Ed on Sunday, March 12 @ 08:39:55 PST
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Gordon Wenham is an eminent OT scholar teaching in England. This is a description of his view on creation:

Gordon J. Wenham.
Professor
Biblical commentator
Lecturer
Brief Background: Wenham is senior professor of Old Testament at Cheltenham and Gloucester College of Higher Education in Cheltenham, England. He is a recognized expert on the Pentateuch and has written commentaries on Genesis, Leviticus and Numbers in addition to numerous studies in the Old Testament.

Old Earth Quote(s):

It has been unfortunate that one device which our narrative uses to express the coherence and purposiveness of the creator's work, namely, the distribution of the various creative acts to six days, has been seized on and interpreted over-literalistically, with the result that science and Scripture have been pitted against each other instead of being seen as complimentary. Properly understood, Genesis justifies the scientific experience of unity and order in nature. The six-day schema is but one of several means employed in this chapter to stress the system and order that has been built into creation. Other devices include the use of repeating formulae, the tendency to group words and phrases into tens and sevens, literary techniques such as chiasm and inclusio, the arrangement of creative acts into matching groups, and so on.
Source: Book - Word Biblical Commentary Vol. 1 Genesis 1-15 (1987, pp 39-40)


If these hints were not sufficient to indicate the schematization of the six-day creation story, the very content of the narrative points in the same direction. In particular, evening and morning appear three days before the sun and moon, which are explicitly stated to be for "days and years" (v 14). Also, this chapter stands outside the main historical outline of Genesis, each section of which begins, "this is the (family) history of.
Source: Book - Word Biblical Commentary Vol. 1 Genesis 1-15 (1987, pp 39-40)


The Bible-versus-science debate has, most regrettably, sidetracked readers of Gen. 1. Instead of reading the chapter as a triumphant affirmation of the power and wisdom of God and the wonder of his creation, we have been too often bogged down in attempting to squeeze Scripture into the mold of the latest scientific hypothesis or distorting scientific facts to fit a particular interpretation. When allowed to speak for itself, Gen 1 looks beyond such minutiae.
Source: Book - Word Biblical Commentary Vol. 1 Genesis 1-15 (1987, pp 39-40)


The link, along with many other prominent (and not so prominent) modern scholars (and a couple not so modern, e.g., BB Warfield) is found here:

http://www.reasons.org/resources/apologetics/notable_leaders/index.shtml

I have given two links, one with the opinions of biblical scholars, and one with the opinions of scientists. Let's stop this ridiculous assertion that old earth creationists are somehow undermining the faith.

ed



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Re: Beyond Sound Hermeneutics: How the Regional Flood Theory Violates Hermeneutical (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Tuesday, March 14 @ 07:21:06 PST
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A complete analysis of Kurt's rebuttal has been posted to the front page of Planet Preterist. You can see it here: http://planetpreterist.com/news-2828.html.

Blessings,

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

P.S. Thanks again, Kurt, for your time and effort in evaluating BEYOND CREATION SCIENCE.


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