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Surviving a flood of Biblical proportions!
Posted on Tuesday, February 28 @ 05:18:14 PST by kalos

History psychohmike submitted: "Thanks to the work of our good friend Tim Martin we have all over the last month or so spent a whole lot of time on this here website. One thing I know is that these discussions on the first 11 chapters of the book of Genesis has have really made me think. I've recently finished a book called "The Origins Solution" by Dick Fischer. Funny thing is, Fischer is a futurist. Which doesn't surprise me. I mean hey, we have preterists that believe in a global flood. I want to once again encourage everyone out there to take the time to read this book. First of all it is an easy read. Fischer doesn't use language that only JL (a Planet Preterist user) will be able to understand. Secondly you can find it relatively easily and inexpensively online. It's well worth the time and the little money you will have to spend.

Now...One thing in the study the flood being a local judgment that has been rather disappointing to me is the ignorant or even arrogant statements that people make about the testimony of Josephus. It seems like most pastors, teachers, and students like Josephus and his non-christian testimony in support of Biblical truths. That is until he disagrees with peoples pet doctrines. I first discovered this when I stumbled upon preterism. And I seem to get the same thing when it comes to the flood. The sad part is people don't give a well reasoned argument for why they think that he is wrong. It is usually relegated to some form of emotional response.

So what I want to do is open up a conversation that deals with the testimony of Josephus on an intellectual level. If we are to approach the Bible in that manner then we should be able to approach Josephus in the same manner. Let us put the evidence in the balance and "Come let us reason together."

1. Josephus quotes multiple sources for evidence of a flood that did not cover ALL dry ground.

2. Josephus quotes earlier historians that recorded the resting place of the ark as being accessible. Not that 16,854 ft isn't exactly accessible but are you aware of what it would take to hike up to that height. Who knows maybe they had oxygen tanks. 8)

3. Josephus quotes multiple sources reporting that "many who fled at the time of the deluge WERE SAVED."

4. Josephus also records that Noah's sons Shem, Japhet, and Ham, "persuaded others who were greatly afraid of the lower grounds on account of the flood, and so were very loath to come down from the higher places, to venture to follow their examples."

The Antiquities of the Jews Chapter 3 section 6

Now all the writers of barbarian histories make mention of this flood, and of this ark; among whom is Berosus the Chaldean. For when he is describing the circumstances of the flood, he goes on thus: "It is said there is still some part of this ship in Armenia, at the mountain of the Cordyaeans; and that some people carry off pieces of the bitumen, which they take away, and use chiefly as amulets for the averting of mischiefs." Hieronymus the Egyptian also, who wrote the Phoenician Antiquities, and Mnaseas, and a great many more, make mention of the same. Nay, Nicolaus of Damascus, in his ninety-sixth book, hath a particular relation about them; where he speaks thus: "There is a great mountain in Armenia, over Minyas, called Baris, upon which it is reported that many who fled at the time of the Deluge were saved; and that one who was carried in an ark came on shore upon the top of it; and that the remains of the timber were a great while preserved. This might be the man about whom Moses the legislator of the Jews wrote."

then

The Antiquities of the Jews Chapter 4 section 1

Now the sons of Noah were three, - Shem, Japhet, and Ham, born one hundred years before the Deluge. These first of all descended from the mountains into the plains, and fixed their habitation there; and persuaded others who were greatly afraid of the lower grounds on account of the flood, and so were very loath to come down from the higher places, to venture to follow their examples.

Here is the evidence...Now what do we do with it?

8) Mike
"

 
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Re: Surviving a flood of Biblical proportions! (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Tuesday, February 28 @ 07:00:29 PST
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Hey Jared,

Thanks for the support, man. It gets a little tiring working this issue with only my good friend, Jeff. (Virgil, I know how you feel, too.) Looks like it will no longer be me "against the world" on this issue. Things are progressing well. Thanks for the article. Josephus has a lot of cool stuff that hardly anyone ever reads!

Blessings,

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org


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Read the whole context (Score: 1)
by valensname on Tuesday, February 28 @ 10:43:00 PST
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Mike,

Doesn't Josephus quote others as saying things and not himself regarding the flood? Heresay evidence?

And where does it say the others who were afraid to come down weren't originally from the Ark? The context is vague.

I'm sure you would agree that Josephus is not inspired. It is a history but how accurate is he and how much bias or an agenda did he have?

Regarding reading books by others...I'd suggest those interested in the Genesis flood read first their Bibles and then read books on both global and local flood views and compare them. I believe one can know the truth and come to a conclusion regarding this event that is recorded in the Bible.

I myself while holding to a fullfilled eschatology also hold a global flood view. Tim's work, while he has his own understanding and I respect that, has not, in my opinion, been convincing that the Genesis flood could have been local/regional. I do agree that most of the Creationist writings all tag on their view (inaccurate from a fullfilled eschatology perspective) of 2 Peter 3 being a destruction of the physical universe therefore the Genesis flood was planetwide to support the flood being global. However, that does not make the Genesis flood local. I still maintain that Tim's exegesis is faulty by showing how words are used and then bypassing the immediate context of the Genesis flood to make other contexts interject a meaning back into the flood account. The main thing I see different in Tim's writing as opposed to other local flood advocates is his use of 2 Peter 3.

There are many books out there regarding the flood. I just ordered a 400 page volume on the flood. But length of books nor years studying a subject doesn't make one's understanding correct.

May God bless our studies with us having an open mind and heart to understand the Scriptures.

Glenn


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The Greek of Josephus (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Tuesday, February 28 @ 16:10:38 PST
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Ok,

Thinking about this article at work today (thank's Mike) led to a curiosity question. Maybe someone can help me out a bit. It could help strengthen something else I'm working on.

We know that Josephus lived as contemporary with the writing of the New Testament. I assume Josephus wrote in Greek which was common in Roman Civilization. So my question is what Greek words did Josephus use for "earth" in his original texts? We always read the translated version (obviously), but what did Josephus actually write for "earth" and how does that compare linguistically with the biblical texts.

This would be a big help for preterists who read Josephus' accounts in a plain-literal fashion as the planet. If he's using the same language as the New Testament, then we should see some parallels there which will make the case obvious (to preterists at least).

We know that "ge" is used all through Revelation and is translated "earth" in many English Bibles. That's one big reason so many hold to global-futurism. But in the Septuagint, "ge" is used in every case for "earth" throughout the flood account. I wonder if Josephus goes this direction.

Or he could have used "oikoumene." Which still is limited to the Roman Empire (mostly). There are even cases where "kosmos" was used locally in reference to the gospel preached in the "whole world" (kosmos). Anybody know how to track this down? I'll get to it if nobody else does, but my hands are a little full for the next week or so. Help?


Tim Martin
www.truthinliving


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Re: Surviving a flood of Biblical proportions! (Score: 1)
by JL (jl@planetpreterist.com) on Tuesday, February 28 @ 17:23:48 PST
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Mike,

Be aware.

Yesterday, Ed Steven's called Tim and I racists, white supremacists, liberals, universalists, and a few more apparent swear words that I've never heard before.

Not one of the global-flood advocates who witnessed this would tell Ed he's out of line or denounce his vicious name-calling.

The world is a dangerous place. When you venture away from PP, you've got to watch six.

JL


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Re: Surviving a flood of Biblical proportions! (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Tuesday, February 28 @ 18:03:36 PST
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Yeah, it happened.... again.

The funny thing is now it is all quiet on the Western Front. I thought I handled him pretty well. But it isn't hard when he is not well-versed in the standard Creation Science line he ostensibly teaches. Man, get your story straight before you go public! Open mouth, insert foot.

Jeff, Mike S. did put in a good word or two. But I think he's another one on the "outs" with Ed. Oh well, moving on to more important things...

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org


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Tim says a global flood view is an absurdity (Score: 1)
by valensname on Thursday, March 02 @ 21:16:08 PST
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Regarding:
Re: Seems to be difference in methods of interpretation (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Thursday, March 02 @ 20:43:01 PST

Tim,

The truth of the matter coming to light here...

So what that some of the Jews of Josephus' day thought others survived the Genesis Flood. Josephus was on the planet when the apostles were and in the same region and I don't think he became a Christian. He really looked at the evidence at hand didn't he? The Jews were wrong about what Jesus came to do - the majority of them. That majority didn't understand things correctly - that's your support for a local flood?

I guess you also have to prove people didn't live everywhere there was land on the planet before the flood. And a reiteration of go and multiply to Noah doesn't say that they didn't. That's reading into the text.

I addressed your Noah preaching point before but that was the post you didn't respond to. Why would Noah have to preach to the entire planet? Didn't Jesus say the apostles wouldn't even go over all of Israel before He came back? But their world was destroyed was it not?

No Tim, your interpretations have holes in them and your reasoning is inconsistent and you interject things into the text that are not there. But since you think the idea of a global flood is "an absurdity" I sure hope you put that in your book and on the cover and the back too!

You are right about last response...if you say the Genesis flood being global is an absurdity then why discuss it at all. Must be a bunch of, I guess dumb people out there, including me, who believe the flood was global. You sure have refuted all those books out there that support a global flood. When the new book I ordered comes in the mail, I'll just throw it in the trash - since its just absurd writing. You sure haven't convinced me to read your book with that outlook. Please put that you think a global flood view is an absurdity in your book. Why not even put that in the title of your book. Since it is so clear and plain that a local flood (whatever local is) is what the Genesis account so clearly states. Who could think otherwise.

Thank you for the discussions...it has been interesting.

Glenn


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