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Exclusive: Transitioning a Church From Futurism To Preterism
Posted on Monday, February 13 @ 17:30:56 PST by Albert Persohn |
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by Albert Persohn When I became a Preterist I was faced with an
uncommon challenge. I was the pastor of a
futurist Charismatic church. A funny moment,
which I now see as a watershed, occurred in
2002. At the time we used an overhead
projector to display our songs. I was
concerned about some of the futurist songs we
were singing. So I told my wife that I wanted
to change some of the words. We occasionally
sang a song that begins with the words: “I
lift my hands to the Coming King”.
I said to Annette that I want to keep the song but change the first line to: “I lift my hands to the Reining King”. That seemed simple enough to me. Annette would reprint the overhead with the changed words and that would be it.
Not So!
What was meant to be a subtle change turned into a revealing embarrassment. Not having an opportunity to print the words on a fresh overhead, the lovely Annette chose instead to use the overhead pen and strike out the word “coming” and replace it with “reining”. The change I requested was evident to all. (Not only that, I was “out of the closet”!) My attempt at subtle transition was railroaded. Those in the church who were already Preterists chuckled and those who were concerned about my shift probably choked.
Do We Share A Common Dilemma?
Has anyone else faced this dilemma? Some good change management skills may come in handy here. If I stood up and said: “The second coming occurred in AD70”, I would face a walk out. If I left the ministry and walked away from the pulpit nothing would be accomplished. If I did not say anything and suffered in silence I would be a hypocrite.
So What To Do?
Stay and bring change, first to our church, then to as many who want to hear it. Here are the steps for what they are worth:
Find and influence the legitimizers,
Teach eschatology review seminars on occasional Saturdays
Maintain the thrust of caring for people
Know your stuff and prepare to answer questions
Work hard to embrace rather than reject the good sensibilities of people
Get to new people quickly
Learn the art of diplomacy
Preach Christ and Him Crucified as often as possible
What Kind Of Questions Do Charismatics Ask?
q) How can the big name preachers all be wrong about this?
a) The answer that works best: All through recorded history God has never brought change from the top. It is always from the grass roots. That has not changed. Martin Luther and the reformers join Moses, the Prophets, Jesus and the Apostles in demonstrating that change or reformation comes from below. A new reformation is under way today.
q) Paul says that the Gifts of the Spirit were until the coming of the Lord. Do you still speak in tongues?
a) I speak in tongues every day. I believe manifestations like those mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12-14 are still with us. I do not believe they are gifts anymore. They belong to all who wish to walk in them. In the first century they had an eschatological component, which is gone. (nb. That is my position as of Feb 2006. I am still on a journey here.)
q) Are you trying to tell me that you know more than Billy Graham, Benny Hinn etc.
Comments: Now be really really careful with this. I mean it! From the list above, “Embrace rather than offend the good sensibilities of people”. Swallow some pride and keep a friend!
a) These well-known people are really not strong in the area of eschatology; they usually rehash the popular stuff just like I did for years. I am sure if they did their homework they would stop preaching the Rapture themselves.
q) Do you still believe in healing?
a) Of course. Are you a child of God? Did Jesus die for you? What father do you know that takes pleasure in the sickness of his children?
Comment: We have always prayed for the sick and regularly see the kind of healings that are hard to attribute to doctors, medicine or natural phenomenon. If fact I think we have seen more dramatic healings in the last few years than before. (Am I absolutely right on this? Remember, it’s a journey!)
q) Things are definitely changing in the world. Things are getting worse and worse. Isn’t that proof that prophecy is being fulfilled?
a) The events we are seeing in the world today are not a sign of the end of the world but rather a sign of the end of the dominance of Western Civilization. Civilizations have come and gone for thousands of years. Ours is nearing its end, but the world will go on.
There are many other types of questions, I am attempting to stress the need for a soft diplomatic answer.
Welcome to Theology Zoo, Please Don’t Feed The Partial Preterists
There is a certain elitism among so called Full Preterists towards Partial Preterists. This is non productive. Let’s face it, most Full or Consistent Preterists were, at one time, Partial Preterists. Even hard core Ultra-Dispensationalists have some elements of Preterism in their understanding. We have heard them teach that the promised “your house shall leave you desolate” and others were fulfilled in AD70.
Why is this critical?
It has proven to be effective to move as many people as possible in a congregation to a Partial Preterist position first. I am not implying or suggesting any deception at all. Build on the perception they have of what is already fulfilled. Establish them there. Reinforce in their minds the statements of Jesus that they know to be fulfilled. Then teach from there.
Corporate Inertia and the Attractiveness of Preterism
Preterism is so beautiful and pristine that the enquiring Godly heart cannot resist it. The dreary convoluted dishonesty of Dispensationalism is easily outshined by the exquisite Biblical unity only revealed in Preterism. Remember this when transitioning a church or a group of futurists. Be excited about your topic but remember the challenge it was to you. Once the congregation begins to move toward “Eschatological Review” maintain the momentum. Don’t push it faster than it wants to go and don’t let it die!
Will They Leave The Church? Will I lose Friends?
This was my greatest fear. I would be faced with a walkout and that would be it. Thankfully I am in full secular employment and would not suffer financially if this was to happen, but that is not the issue. What happened in our situation? In the first five years, apart from those who moved to another city, no one left. In fact the opposite seems to have happened. At first various fellow Charismatic ministers kept me at arms length. Not a single one of my Anglican, Uniting (Methodist), Baptist or Catholic minister friends put distance between them and us, just the Charismatics. In 2001 one Pastor friend of mine said “Al, if there is no rapture in five years I will listen to you” I plan to remind him of our conversation. It is curious to note that several of them have reformed relationships with us in the last year. They too are sensing the need for “Eschatological Reform”.
Success Story?
Our church was privileged to run “Eschaton 2004” with Don Preston. Our people picked up most of the tab and are looking forward to “Eschaton 2006” this October. Today I can stand up and say from the pulpit, that “I believe that all prophecy has been fulfilled” with no fear or trepidation. I can preach a message like: “Are we in the Last Days?” and be received with joy.
A Great Disturbance
Obi-Wan: “I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of voices suddenly cried out in terror” There is a rising disturbance in Charismatic circles. Cowardly leaders who won’t allow their eschatology to be debated are beginning to feel the pressure. It is coming from the grass roots. I am amazed regularly at the numbers of people who are aware of the failure of Dispensationalism. Recently I heard Charismatic preacher Joe Van Koevering say that prophecy conferences are becoming a thing of the past. He spoke only a half truth. This change has come because educated leaders everywhere are refusing to swim in the toxic swill of hard core religious futurism. Five years ago we thought that the demise of Dispensationalism would occur by the middle of the current century. It seems that we were too pessimistic. It will slip away as an historical anomaly within twenty years. As the Holy Spirit continues producing an Eschatological Awakening the Preterist movement will be blessed with tens of thousands of Charismatics.
An Extreme Completely Unique Cultural Super-Shift
The doctrine of ongoing fulfilling prophecy is very thoroughly pounded into Evangelicals and Charismatics. It is hard for them to move from it. Consistent Preterism on the other hand is unique. No other religious position held by Jews, Muslims or Christians comes close. Every other paradigm including those of eastern religions has some element of Religious Futurism in it. Only Full Preterism does not. Only we can say that all prophetic doors opened in Bible times were locked in Bible times. The beauty of this is indescribable. When properly communicated, it is irresistible to even the most extreme futurist.
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Albert Persohn is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com. Albert Persohn is the senior pastor of Botany City Church in Sydney, Australia, a church of two congregations, one English and one Indonesian. Albert has a heart for small churches and a desire to plant churches in Australia. He was born in Canada in '58, served with Wyclife Bible Translators in Equador, the Philippines and Australia as an Electronics tech.
View Albert Persohn archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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Re: Transitioning a Church From Futurism To Preterism (Score: 1)
by jaredcoleman (jaredcoleman@gmail.com) on Monday, February 13 @ 17:57:50 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | | Very nice piece... I really appreciated it. It is great to hear more about how preterism affects charismatic thinking. Thanks! |
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Re: Transitioning a Church From Futurism To Preterism (Score: 1)
by cinper on Monday, February 13 @ 17:58:54 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Great article. Thank you.
I am a mere Children's Church teacher at my church. The Pastor's sermons are regularly peppered with Last Days talk, which is not unusual since it is an Assemblies of God church.
One of the Assoc. Pastors (who recently left), stated a few months ago before beginning his message that "You don't hear good Rapture messages any more." I wanted to stand and shout "Amen! For good reason!" I held my tongue.
I am waiting for that Sunday School lesson to come that deals with the Rapture or Jesus' Second Coming. I want to send those kids home with something to think about, maybe even stir the pot a bit with their parents.
Perry |
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- by leslie on Tuesday, February 14 @ 10:32:12 PST
Re: Transitioning a Church From Futurism To Preterism (Score: 1)
by mazuur on Monday, February 13 @ 19:25:53 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Albert,
Excellent article! I get a sense of your honesty throughout which is very much appreciated.
Concerning this statement made by you,
"q) Paul says that the Gifts of the Spirit were until the coming of the Lord. Do you still speak in tongues?
a) I speak in tongues every day. I believe manifestations like those mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12-14 are still with us. I do not believe they are gifts anymore. They belong to all who wish to walk in them. In the first century they had an eschatological component, which is gone. (nb. That is my position as of Feb 2006. I am still on a journey here.)"
Don't know if you have ever read Max King's book "The Cross and the Parousia of Christ" or not, but I would recommend it to you. I would especially point you to pages 397-408.
Later you stated,
"q) Do you still believe in healing?
a) Of course. Are you a child of God? Did Jesus die for you? What father do you know that takes pleasure in the sickness of his children? Comment: We have always prayed for the sick and regularly see the kind of healings that are hard to attribute to doctors, medicine or natural phenomenon. If fact I think we have seen more dramatic healings in the last few years than before. (Am I absolutely right on this? Remember, it’s a journey!)"
Your question "Am I absolutely right on this?" speaks to me that you are fishing for us here to comment on this subject. So, here is my input.
While, God does indeed heal *at His discretion* (as an answer to prayer, not working through any man's hands), healing is not guaranteed (we are talking physical healing, not spiritual) to anyone. There is also a *big* difference between the *gift of healing* the Apostles possessed (and those to whom they passed on the gift to, which ended there), and God healing as an answer to prayer. The gift of healing (as well as the other miraculous gifts, which speaks to the other question I address above) the Apostles possessed did in fact cease with the coming of that which is "perfect" (1 Cor. 13:8-13), which was the new heaven and earth, in AD 70.
Rich |
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- by EWMI on Monday, February 13 @ 20:07:20 PST
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- by Kyle Peterson on Wednesday, February 15 @ 06:45:16 PST
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Re: Transitioning a Church From Futurism To Preterism (Score: 1)
by Flakinde on Monday, February 13 @ 19:35:56 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Albert, that was excellent, and I can relate so much to what you express. I too come from a Charismatic background (though I don't consider myself to be a full-fledged Charismatic, I too am on a journey), and I too acknowledge there has been a shift in how God deals with men in the New Jerusalem, but I honestly can't see Cessationism as a logical and explicitly Biblical option. I would be very, very appreciative if you ever decide to write a piece on the state of your "journey" as a Charismatic Preterist.
Blessed in His rest,
A. Rodriguez |
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- by EWMI on Monday, February 13 @ 20:23:52 PST
Re: Transitioning a Church From Futurism To Preterism (Score: 1)
by Islamaphobe on Monday, February 13 @ 21:11:00 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | I found this article to be very interesting and informative Al. I enjoy reading about how others came to the preterist understanding of Scripture. I may differ from you on one point, however. You write: "Only Full Preterism . . . can say that all prophetic doors opened in Bible times were locked in Bible times." I hope you do not intend to indicate with that statement that all biblical prophecy was fulfilled by the first century. To me the essence of full preterism is that the Parousia occurred in AD 70, but that does not mean to me that all prophecy has been fulfilled. I am persuaded that the prophecies of Daniel 2 and 7 point to the full establishment of Christ's domain on earth and that humankind is still evolving in that direction. As far as I am concerned, the rock of Daniel 2:35 has not yet become the mountain that fills the entire earth. I shall be writing an article about this in the near future.
I note, however, that "were locked" does not necessarily quite mean "were fulfilled."
John S. Evans |
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Re: Transitioning a Church From Futurism To Preterism (Score: 1)
by Virgil on Tuesday, February 14 @ 04:45:58 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Good stuff Al! "Influencing the legitimizers" was a great line, and I am with you.
In some way I have always been baffled by "charismatic Preterism" so I don't get the connection at all, but that doesn't mean that I can't rejoice when it comes down to hearing your good news. Preterism seems to be growing in charismatic circles...i've met many people at conferences and whatnot with charismatic backgrounds, so there is a huge interest there for some reason.
Keep up the good work!! |
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Re: Transitioning a Church From Futurism To Preterism (Score: 1)
by Duck on Tuesday, February 14 @ 08:15:22 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Al,
Nice to hear a success story. I was a part of a church for 10 years that prided itself on being Berean. During that time I gradually introduced preterism to the group, although not nearly as wisely as Al. Some embraced it while others became increasingly hostile. Sadly, our progress ended when my co-elder, who had a growing ministry to protect, saw preterism as a threat to his ministry and sought to stop it's spread at all cost. Sadly, the church that once boasted of being Berean refused to study the topic and opted for creedal Christianity instead. Long story short he split the church and drove away the preterits.
I appreciate your balance between love for the truth and love for the brethren. May the Lord bless your group as you seek Him and his will.
David
Atlanta |
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Re: Transitioning a Church From Futurism To Preterism (Score: 1)
by NB9M (brad@nb9m.com) on Tuesday, February 14 @ 09:00:09 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | What a great article! Honest, factual, and informative. Your love of Truth shows, and you're bearing the signs of a committed leader amidst doctrinal squalor.
I believe that the beginning of wisdom is when we admit we know little. We should be diligently seeking Grace and Knowledge, and studying to show ourselves approved. Outwardly, that should be manifested as change. Folks seeing change in their leaders squirm - but, that should't be so!
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Re: Transitioning a Church From Futurism To Preterism (Score: 1)
by dkpret on Tuesday, February 14 @ 09:30:58 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | I have to make a comment. One of the huge attractions and beauties of Covenant Eschatology is that it is breaking down barriers. A little over a year ago, Al called me and asked if I would be willing to go to Australia and conduct a seminar there. Now, I have always wanted to go to Australia, but, there was an issue: Al is Charismatic and I am cessationist! End of story, right? No! I asked Al if they wanted to or would restrict me in what I would/could say in my lessons and in the Q and A sessions, and Al's immediate response was, "Absolutely not! We want you to say what you believe and give your Biblical reasons for it. We want truth, and are willing to listen." My immediate response was, "Where is my plane ticket??"
What an unusual situation, that was, I must tell you, a fantastic experience for my wife and me. A non-charismatic preacher in a charismatic church, unfettered! I can't say enough about how my wife and I just fell in love with Al, Annette and the group there! And, the plans are made for us to return in 2006.
Such openness, such desire for the truth, such love is one of the things that needs to be nurtured everywhere. We need not be afraid of listening to what people have to say, no matter our persuasion, charismatic or non-charismatic, Calvinist or Armenian, etc.. If our goal and heart's desire is truth, we follow, regardless!
So, as I read Al's post, my heart was warmed. I know of his struggles, and have shared them in my own experience and fellowship. But, his post was a reminder of what we are calling others to experience. The joy, the fear, the adventure, the journey!
Thanks, Al, Jan and I are so very much looking forward to being with you again in October!
For His Truth and In His Grace,
Don K. Preston |
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- by EWMI on Tuesday, February 14 @ 22:51:13 PST
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Re: Transitioning a Church From Futurism To Preterism (Score: 1)
by Randude on Tuesday, February 14 @ 13:40:59 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | | Great article Al! I so wish you could be at Truthvoice this year! Every think of coming to the US around June? We would love to see you! |
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- by Virgil on Tuesday, February 14 @ 17:51:43 PST
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Re: Transitioning a Church From Futurism To Preterism (Score: 1)
by Ed on Wednesday, February 15 @ 13:28:55 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Kyle made a point about Tongues above, and I think he has a good point. Problem is, most charismatics (I sort of number myself in with that crowd) see tongues as kind of the "biggie size" of spiritual gifts, whereas Paul's letters seem to indicate otherwise - at least IMO.
The problem I have with cessationism is that assumes too much. I wrote an article a long time ago about the Tabernacle of David. The ToD was likened to the Interim Church, existing at the same time as the Tabernacle of Moses at Shiloh (or as it was later called Gibeon, meaning the High Place). Once Solomon finished building the Temple (cf. Jesus building of his temple, the church), the holy things were brought from the ToM, and the ToD and worship was transferred into the Temple. What happened next is significant.
The Temple was filled with a cloud, the Shekinah glory of God. It was so powerful that it caused Solomon and the priests to fall on their faces. POWER.
I share that to say that, although the spirit of God worked in the first century in powerful ways, my view of the allegory/type/shadow was that the MORE POWER was coming at the Parousia. The problem we have in recognizing that MORE POWER is that we want to define it in "charismatic" terms.
I don't mean to be too forward here, but post-parousia, it's all about grace and love, peace and joy, goodness and kindness, patience and gentleness, righteousness and self-control. These are MORE POWER things. They destroy strongholds. They set people free.
How do these things manifest today? Healings, prophecies, discernment, mercy, faith, etc., etc. Sure, tongues seems to have had a first century only significance, but the rest of the gifts may or may not manifest themselves today - IN MORE POWERFUL WAYS THEN WE CAN IMAGINE.
Al, keep praying for the sick. Keep opening God's word and speaking the truth in love. Keep reaching out to the poor and disenfranchised. This is real "charismatic" (i.e., grace-filled) power. Be charismatic, in the real sense of the word. Far too many of us look only at tongues and use it as a pride thing. REAL POWER is about serving others in ways unimaginable to those of us of finite minds. Only the Infinite Mind can show us how best to minister, how best to pray, how best to love.
This is, of course, all just my opinion.
ed
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Re: Transitioning a Church From Futurism To Preterism (Score: 1)
by davo on Thursday, February 16 @ 09:41:36 PST (User Info | Send a Message) |
G'day Al, what a great article :)
Albert Persohn: q) Paul says that the Gifts of the Spirit were until the coming of the Lord. Do you still speak in tongues?
a) I speak in tongues every day. I believe manifestations like those mentioned in 1 Corinthians 12-14 are still with us. I do not believe they are gifts anymore. They belong to all who wish to walk in them. In the first century they had an eschatological component, which is gone. (nb. That is my position as of Feb 2006. I am still on a journey here.)
This is the conviction I have likewise come to. We can argue for cessation as in "do this till I come", OR we can see according to fulfilment a change in emphasis. "Tongues" were not simply limited to their "sign to Israel" aspect – they were also for the edifying of believers. As a sign there came fullness in the Parousia [that which is perfect], as a sustenance there is fullness in the believer. The presence of God simply maintains that which He has brought to fullness.
Albert Persohn: It has proven to be effective to move as many people as possible in a congregation to a Partial Preterist position first. I am not implying or suggesting any deception at all. Build on the perception they have of what is already fulfilled. Establish them there. Reinforce in their minds the statements of Jesus that they know to be fulfilled. Then teach from there.
Yes Al, I believe the principle that works well is: look at what you DO have, NOT at what you don't have.
davo
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Re: Transitioning a Church From Futurism To Preterism (Score: 1)
by paul (freebird@comcast.net) on Saturday, March 25 @ 08:42:20 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Thank you, Pastor, for your kindness, honesty, and determination to "stay the course" with your brothers and sisters, instead of finding a different business!
I am an elder in a church denomination that differs in several ways from the convictions that I hold to, especially 1st Century completion of all of the Olivet Discourse and of all of the Book of the Revelation.
These are wonderful believers who confess our Lord Jesus and desire to faithfully follow Him. |
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