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"In the 38th chapter of Ezekiel, it says that the land of Israel will come under attack by the armies of the ungodly nations, and it says that Lybia will be among them. Do you understand the significance of that? Lybia has now gone communist, and that's a sign that the day of Armageddon isn't far off."
-- Ronald Reagan
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In Search of the Millennium
Posted on Monday, November 07 @ 11:01:31 PST by kalos |
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Ivan submitted: "As a result of embracing preterism, many texts require less exegetical huffing and puffing that formerly. However, Revelation 20 leaves me winded. I am writing this article in the hope that responses may unravel the mystery. My interest in seeking answers is more than academic.
I teach a course called Spiritual Warfare. Should I be teaching the tactics of the devil if he is in the lake of fire already? What about the lecture on demonism? Are the demons in the lake of fire along with the devil? If so, how do I account for the graphic records of demon possession and occultic phenomena such as levitation? Some argue that as the influence of a Hitler outlasts his life so it is with the devil, but the analogy is unconvincing in the face of testimonies of deliverance from evil more palpable than an absent fiend could cause.
I belong to a church which adopts a dispensational eschatology and is the annual venue for a conference run by one of the most prominent dispensational organisations in Australia. Some in the church are nervous about my views without my proclaiming that the millennium is past. I am regarded as an amillennialist. I am not about to disillusion them but if Russell and Terry are correct, then one element of amillennialism is true, namely, the extent of the millennium, though not its relation to the second coming – or is the partial preterist right after all?
Many preterists view the 1000 years as a relatively short period of 40 years. I have read attempts to support the position but none has been convincing. If 10 days represent a short time (Rev 2:10), it makes sense that 1000 years represent a long time. Did J. S. Russell and Milton Terry, who were so right at so many points, get it wrong when they came to Revelation 20? Are we preterists in danger of superimposing our AD 70 paradigm on a passage which, like it or not, is future. I deplore the dispensationist tendency to force Scripture into their view and do not want to be guilty of doing the same with a preterist view.
When I look at the text, I notice that the martyrs had neither worshipped the beast nor received his mark. If reference to the beast and his mark are to the 60’s then there are only a few years of the so-called millennium left before its completion in AD 70 (in the widely accepted preterist view of the 1000 years) yet these same martyrs come to life after refusing the mark of the beast and then reign for 1000 years. We are left with the incredulous position that a few short years are represented by 1000 years. I know that some spiritualise the first resurrection of the martyrs but the close connection with their beheading (v4) and the use of the same Greek word in verse 5 for the resurrection of “the rest of the dead” make such a view unlikely.
The fire from heaven (v9) devouring those who surrounded Jerusalem (presumably) does not seem to fit the events of AD70. A similar problem occurs in Zechariah 14:3.
To add to my frustration, there are one or two points in favour of the 40-year view of the millennium: Satan’s time is said to be short in Revelation 12:2 and the “short time” of Revelation 20:3 could well fit the turbulent period prior to AD 70. On balance, however, there are more reasons to question the view than to accept it. Either way I am left unsatisfied and remain in search of the millennium."
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Re: In Search of the Millennium (Score: 1)
 by jaredcoleman (jaredcoleman@gmail.com) on Monday, November 07 @ 11:05:06 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | | I feel your pain, Ivan... I totally agree. |
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- by revel7 on Friday, November 11 @ 10:59:48 PST
Re: In Search of the Millennium (Score: 1)
 by Ransom on Monday, November 07 @ 11:52:57 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | I've got the same problems for the most part. I don't have as much of a problem with a forty-year millenium, especially since the number forty has such important typological meaning.
Some of the other issues you list give me pause, however. There are so many contemporary accounts of demonic activity. There's the idea that demons are running around leaderless while Satan is already in the Lake of Fire, but when do they receive their due? And what about the fire from heaven in v. 9? Can other preterists give us satisfactory explanations of these, or are we to accept them just because they fit the doctrine? |
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- by Virgil on Monday, November 07 @ 13:24:13 PST
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Thoughts on Verses 7-9 (Score: 1)
 by EWMI on Tuesday, November 08 @ 02:11:05 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | G'day Ivan
It is good to hear from you again!
Here are some of my thoughts on some of Rev 20.
First verse 9:
"They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them. Rev 20:9"
Some traction in favor of the AD70 position can be gained by seeing the "the saints and the beloved city" not as natural Jerusalem but as the Church. Natural Jerusalem is never mentioned by name in Revelation. The name Jerusalem is used to denote the New or Holy city. (Rev 3:12, 21:2, 21:10) My point is that 20:9 is the description not of a damned rejected city but of the one God loves.
With that in mind I will attempt a paraphrase and expansion of verses 7-10 for your comments:
"At the end of the period of covenantal transition, a perfect period, here spoken of as 1000 years, foreshadowed by the 40 years Moses ruled, the 40 years in the wilderness, the 40 years the Tabernacle of David stood and the 40 years of David's rule. The enemy of God's true covenant people will once again be empowered to come against them. The origin of their power, the Old Covenant apostate government, will be destroyed by a fiery judgment with eternal consequences."
Problems
First, I need the assistance of a Greek Scholar to confirm that "the saints and the beloved city" means that the saints = the beloved city. I understand that if the Greek intent is that they are different the translation should separate them.
Second, is that this position would not see Gog and Magog as the armies of Titus and his allies but rather of the one who kills the martyrs.
Third, my suggestion seems to argue against the existance of Satan as a powerful spiritual being.
The problems with interpreting the city of verse 9 as natural OC Jerusalem are even greater. This would mean that
a) the saints were dwelling in her. This was not the condition by AD70.
b) the city was not rejected but beloved. This runs against the theme of judgment in Revelation
c) that some type of fire would have fallen on Rome, and the Idumeans etc as a result of their assault on the city. This plainly did not happen. In fact under Vespasian Rome rose again.
Al Persohn
Looking forward to Eschaton 2006 |
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- by NB9M on Thursday, November 10 @ 16:11:14 PST
- by Ivan on Thursday, December 01 @ 01:43:54 PST
Re: In Search of the Millennium (Score: 1)
by alberto on Tuesday, November 08 @ 08:19:57 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | I am not going to trumpet the activities of Satan or his demons. I think that Jesus defeated them at the cross. We enter into His victory. Yet, those who reject Christ, and live in a most depraved manner, still are giving demons a place to operate, and, in my experience, demons are still active, even against Christians, but they must, and do, desist and flee if confronted with the authority of Jesus's name.
I totally reject the dispensationalist view. I am a 99% preterist, but I believe in and experience the gifts of the Holy Spirit today, including the binding and casting out of demons.
I know, fellows, that many, if not most of you, are tsk-tsking and shaking your heads. "Why the poor deluded man, elevating his EXPERIENCE over OUR interpretation of scripture." All I can say is that there are things that we do not know. If you don't believe the devil is still active, at least to a limited degree, maybe you should tour an abortion clinic, or a gay bath-house, or a crack-house, or death-row. Tell me that somebody who tortures and kills a child is not demonized. I will disagree with you.
Better men than me will have to explain Revelation 20. That is part of the one percent that makes me only 99% preterist. I must say that preterism is the best thing that ever happened to me after salvation, though. Is it possible to be substantially preterist and also charismatic? Well, it works for me.
Yes, I think a "Wal-Mart" demon is funny, too. But suppose you rephrase that, and speak of some demonic activity that causes a person to be absolutely compulsive--to buy useless things, to spend money uncontrollably, to enter a store weeping and trembling with the rent money or light bill money in her hand, and saying, "Oh God, why am I doing this? Oh, God, help me, help me...." Picture the grief and distress of her husband, who is at his wit's end, and on his knees to God, "Help us, Lord, oh help us!" It is not so hilarious viewed that way, is it? Now suppose somebody who believes like me prays with that woman and her husband, and according to Matthew 18:18, binds that spirit--call it a Wal Mart demon if you must, but it knows what it really is--and rebukes it, an commands it to be loosed from her. It might not fit your theology, brother. But if the problem ceases from that moment forward, it would give you something to think about, wouldn't it? And yes, I have seen similar results. |
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- by Paige on Tuesday, November 08 @ 09:03:24 PST
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Re: In Search of the Millennium (Score: 1)
by Duncan on Tuesday, November 08 @ 20:08:05 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | I think both extremes (seeing a demon under every bush and saying there is no demonic activity today) are wrong. I think one has to be careful on what constitutes demonic activity. The usual concept is something like the exorcist model (by the way the exorcist was based on a real story that happened I think in the 1950's). The Gerasene demoniac fits this model.
There are other examples, however, that are more subtle. There was the fortune telling girl who lost her powers when Paul cast a spirit out of her (Acts 16:16-19). I think much of the new age and occult today is fake. I don't think it all is.
There was even a church goer (actully a synagoge goer)that had an unclean spirit (Mark 1:21-27). This guy was probably the opposite (on the outside) to the Gerasene demoniac.
Again I don't see a demon under every bush. I do, however, think we need to enlarge our paradigm of what could be demonic. Apparently even certain teachings can be demonic in origin 1 Tim. 4:1. (no doubt non-prets like to try and pin this one of preterists). Judging by some of the Bible teaching that comes out of the seminaries (that undermines the Bible) I would not be surprized if some form of demonic influence was going on there.
Duncan
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Re: In Search of the Millennium (Score: 1)
by gospellady on Thursday, November 10 @ 06:40:39 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | HELLO:
"FOOD FOR THOUGHT"
2ND PETER 3RD CHAPTER.
2ND PETER 3:8 PETER WRITING TO THE BELIEVERS (DURING HIS LIFETIME)ABOUT FALSE TEACHERS PEDDLING DAMAGING DOCTRINE.
SEE 2ND PETER 3RD CHAPTER.
SEE 2ND PETER 3:8
"BUT, BELOVED, BE NOT IGNORANT OF THIS ONE THING THAT ONE DAY IS WITH THE LORD AS A THOUSAND YEARS AND A THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY.
VERSE 10 TALKS ABOUT "THE DAY OF THE LORD" AS WELL AS VERSE 12.
WITH REGARD TO THE THOUSAND YEAR REIGN, LET THE SCRIPTURE TELL YOU WHAT IT IS TALKING ABOUT.
"ONE DAY IS WITH THE LORD AS A THOUSAND YEARS AND A THOUSAND YEARS AS ONE DAY"
STUDY THE "DAY OF THE LORD" AND I BELIEVE IT WILL BE HELPFUL TO YOU.
IT'S GOOD TO SEE THAT YOU ARE SEARCHING FOR THE TRUTH AND NOT JUST ACCEPTING MAN'S INTERPRETATION. |
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- by NB9M on Thursday, November 10 @ 16:25:38 PST
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Re: In Search of the Millennium (Score: 1)
 by RevelationMan on Tuesday, November 15 @ 07:07:05 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | I wrote an article called Millennium:1000 or 30 years? If the Millennium began around the time of Paul's conversion in 33/34 AD (after which the church experienced a time of peace), then the 1000 years probably represent the number 10 cubed (10x10x10) or 30 years. The purpose of binding Satan was so that the nations would not be deceived (Rev. 20:3) and afterwards he would be loosed for a short time. If the purpose of binding Satan was to allow the gospel to go around the world, then as Paul proclaimed in his books in the 60's, the gospel had gone around the known world. Satan is loosed & Nero attacks the church. He's judged & sentenced at the time of the judgment in 70 & that's the end of him.
As for the demons, if Genesis 6 is talking about angels when it mentions the sons of God, which I believe it is, then those are the angels/demons that were held in prison until judgment (2 Peter 2:4 & Jude 6.) Therefore, there can still be demons in existence today if Satan & those demons were judged at that time.
My belief that the 2nd Coming was the 3 1/2 years that Rome came after Jerusalem from 67 to 70 helps make everything fit perfectly. If you have any questions you can e-mail me or go to my website at www.todaystheophilus.com. Hope this helps.
Eric |
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Re: In Search of the Millennium (Score: 1)
by violacleff on Wednesday, November 16 @ 16:35:57 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Ok, I too was being convinced into preterism until I read the article by Don Preston "binding the devil." I am of the opinion that too many evangelics look for a demon behind every bush. I also feel that most sins are from the temptations of the flesh and Satan need not be blamed.
That being said. I have experienced an exorcism first hand about 10 years ago in a church. This could not be explained away by any menatl illness or disease. This small man had to be held down by 6 large men as a demonic voice came out of him not muffled by the people lying on top of him. It almost sounded as if it came out of the atmostphere. Although this was a first time visitor, the demon began calling out peoples names,threatening them, and even mocking the pastor who was unable to cast it out. It was a 3 hour ordeal.
I had never seen anything like it before and have never seen anything since (and I have visited vodoo nations). This happened in front of about 50 people. And because of this incidence, I can never be convinced that the devil and his angels have been cast in the lake of fire.
For now I have decided that the partial-preterist view makes more sense to me and am still learning more about it (as I was raised dispensational). For what it's worth, I am an educated man, and consider myself and intellectual thinker. I cannot convince myself against what I have seen though.
Just my .02 |
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- by Duncan on Thursday, November 17 @ 19:59:01 PST
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