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Response to Erick's article on 1 Timothy 2:4-6
Posted on Friday, November 04 @ 08:48:08 PST by John |
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leo724 submitted: "As always, I really appreciate Erick's thorough approach and his openness to the truth. I also learned a lot from his summary of the background of Paul's letters to Timothy. My purpose in this article is to point our some areas for further consideration.
First, Erick said, "Though Israel was God’s chosen nation that was never meant to imply every person in that nation was chosen..." and listed the following verses.
Matthew 3:9
and do not suppose that you can say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham for our father'; for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.
John 8:39,44
They answered and said to Him, "Abraham is our father " Jesus said to them, "If you are Abraham's children, do the deeds of Abraham.
You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
Romans 9:8
That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.
Romans 11:2
God has not rejected His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah, how he pleads with God against Israel?
Erick uses these verses to show that Israel as a nation was chosen but that not every person in the nation was chosen, but the verses don't really demonstrate Erick's point. The obvious question is for what were they chosen? None of the verses uses the word "chosen" or its counterpart "elect" so the answer isn't obvious.
My answer would be that Israel was chosen to reflect His image to the surrounding nations. This view would mean that every person in the nation was chosen. This is a far different concept from the way I think Erick is using chosen. The parallel between Israel and the church is that in each God is choosing particular people to bear His image to the world. Each individual in the church and each individual in Israel was chosen specifically for this purpose. Israel was not chosen to go to heaven. The church isn't either. Both are chosen to be God's earthly representatives.
John 6:70
Jesus answered them, " Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?"
John 15:16
" You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.
Acts 9:15
But the Lord said to him, "Go, for he is a chosen instrument of Mine, to bear My name before the Gentiles and kings and the sons of Israel;
1 Peter 2:9
But you are A CHOSEN RACE, A royal PRIESTHOOD, A HOLY NATION, A PEOPLE FOR God's OWN POSSESSION, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light;
Erick then goes on to deal with the passage in question.
“… [God] who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God and Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time...” 1 Tim. 2:4-6
He clearly lays out the background of Paul's letter to Timothy. As I said earlier, I learned a lot from this and I have no substantial disagreement. That being said, when Erick asks, "Can we through context establish that Paul is not implicitly teaching a universal redemption?" I have to question with his belief that we can.
First, the general background of the letter just shows that there was a problem with those Christians who were zealous for the law of Moses and had disdain for the new believers who felt that Christ had set them free from obligation to the Law. It does not show that the Particularist view is correct.
In fact, I believe the background supports the Universalist view equally well if not more so. Obviously moving from one nation to all sorts of people is a movement from particular to universal. Both views support the acceptance of all nations which is the argument made from the background. The background doesn't say anything about individuals. We must make that determination based on the specific context of the passage.
Erick then looks at the specific context. He says that there are "blaring" qualifiers to the word "all". To Erick "all" means "all TYPES of people". It can't mean every individual because then Paul would be saying we should pray for every individual by name which would clearly be impossible. To be honest, I don't even understand this objection. If it's a valid objection then I apologize, but to me it seems like a good example of trying to make a passage fit into a theological framework instead of just listening to what it says. I can't see how anyone could read this passage objectively and not think that all means every individual. That, alone, doesn't mean that all does mean every individual, but it does put a huge burden of proof on someone trying to limit all to mean "all TYPES of people".
Erick also asks, "Now if Paul simply meant all individuals, wouldn’t that necessarily cover the king?" My response is that if "all men" just means "kings and all who are in authority" then why not just leave out all men? The sentence would make perfect sense if it said "...be made on behalf of kings and all who are in authority." I think that "kings and all who are in authority" is just a subset of "all men". This construction is similar to Paul's statement in 1 Timothy 4:10.
For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers.
Finally, Erick says, "Paul saying, “God wants SOME to be saved” or "a ransom for SOME," would completely defeat his point, and add fuel to the fire already in Ephesus (who already believed God wanted some to be saved - i.e. the faithful JEW)." It seems to me that Paul could have expressed Erick's view even better if he had just said "God wants both Jews and Gentiles to be saved" or " a ransom for both Jews and Gentiles"? Wouldn't it be simpler to just let the passage speak for itself?
1 Timothy 2:1-6
First of all, then, I urge that entreaties and prayers, petitions and thanksgivings, be made on behalf of all men, for kings and all who are in authority, so that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and dignity.
This is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, who gave Himself as a ransom for all, the testimony given at the proper time.
Let me say again that I really appreciate these articles by Erick. It is good to always take a fresh look at difficult passages. Now,instead of just commenting on what Erick has written, I would like to share a bit about my own views. Like many Preterists I have been a futurist up until recently. I also have a strong Calvinist background.
About two years ago I realized that I hadn't been being honest with the Scriptures. I had been imposing a theological framework on the clear time statements concerning Jesus' second coming both for salvation and for judgment. Once I listened to the plain meaning of words like generation, quickly, soon, and about I came to be a Preterist. I understood that the gospel is simple and I had confused clear passages by imposing theological presuppositions on them.
I came to a similar realization regarding passages with words like world and all. Now, I understand that my understanding of the Scriptures is never absolute and I am always open to correction, but I would caution everyone to pay more attention to the texts themselves and let the theological chips fall where they may.
May God continue to reveal Himself to us all.
Bill Spears"
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Re: Response to Erick's article on 1 Timothy 2:4-6 (Score: 1)
 by davo on Friday, November 04 @ 16:43:54 PST
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leo724 …Israel was chosen to reflect His image to the surrounding nations. This view would mean that every person in the nation was chosen. This is a far different concept from the way I think Erick is using chosen. The parallel between Israel and the church is that in each God is choosing particular people to bear His image to the world. Each individual in the church and each individual in Israel was chosen specifically for this purpose. Israel was not chosen to go to heaven. The church isn't either. Both are chosen to be God's earthly representatives.
Bill, that is so well put and is reflected in the words of Peter:
1Pet 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light.
Bill I believe you are correct if I am reading you right, "being saved" i.e., "chosen" was NOT about avoiding a post death Hell, but WAS all about being His representatives, or as Paul put it "we are ambassadors for Christ, as though God were pleading through us" [2Cor 5:20]. So as believers, ones chosen, we are saved to serve – in witness and worship we joyously proclaiming the praises of His wondrous grace.
leo724 …I would caution everyone to pay more attention to the texts themselves and let the theological chips fall where they may.
Again, well said Bill, and thank you for your thoughts. When the text is allowed to speak for itself it silences the clamour of opposing voices. For example, compare how Paul writes:
1Tim 4:10 For to this end we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of all men, ESPECIALLY of those who believe.
Gal 6:10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all, ESPECIALLY to those who are of the household of faith.
Paul really leaves little room for the wriggling and wrestling that some go to no ends with, with the text.
davo – pantelism.com –
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