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The Universal Atonement of Christ
There is little that is new about the debate over the extent of Christ’s atonement taking place currently among Preterists. This debate has been raging for many hundreds of years, but in light of Preterism, it is now resurfacing. Those preterists who are Calvinists continue to believe that the atonement of Christ was very specific in nature and targeted only the “elect” while the non-Calvinists believe the atonement to be unlimited in nature.What is new about this debate, however, is the spin that Preterism puts on it. For some people, Preterism did not affect much of their understanding of theology besides eschatological timelines; but for others, their entire understanding of Christianity was shaken to its foundations. This is the nature of the variety of human perception and personality. Unfortunately, we cannot overcome it easily, if we can overcome it at all.
Because of the complex implications of an A.D. 70 parousia of Jesus, we see some other elements coming into the debate, such as Christian Universalism for example, which suggests that all humanity has been saved through Christ. I suggested something less dramatic in a previous article, making the case for a “Comprehensive Reconciliation” which was manifested through God’s presence being restored to all humanity. This is a natural evolution of what I have known to be true before I even became a preterist, namely that Jesus died for all men, not only the elect.
In a conversation I had with a Calvinist regarding this very issue, the topic of Universalism came up, so he pointed out that if Universalism was true, then “what is the point of all this?” It occurred to me, however, that the same can be said about Calvinism. If Calvinism is true, and God chooses who is and who is not saved, then what is the point to any of this? In essence, Calvinism and Universalism are in fact in the same boat. They both trample man's free will and they both provide no motivation for a believer to make a difference in the world. To a Calvinist, these elements appear nonsensical because the limited scope of atonement under the Calvinist framework prohibits exploring a greater atonement as I and others have. So under Calvinism, this discussion does not make sense, and perhaps that explains the confusion and difficulty in communication we all experience here. The Calvinist paradigm simply does not allow for atonement to be extended beyond the elect; so in order to even begin to understand the argument, we need to make an effort to understand the nature of the elect – which will help us understand the nature of atonement.
The elect as a first-century occurrence
One problem with the doctrine of the elect in my opinion, is that it does not recognize the parousia as a past event. So technically speaking, if Christ is yet to return, then the elect is, and should be, a contemporary occurrence. However, if Preterism is true – and that is the assumption under which we construct this argument – then perhaps we should go back and reconsider what we know about the group of believers called “the elect.” Let us consider several passages that may point us in the right direction:
In 1 Peter 1 we read: “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia.”
Paul wrote in Titus 1: “Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness– a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, and at his appointed season he brought his word to light.”
In 2 Timothy 2:10 Paul again writes: “Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.”
And finally, in Romans he again writes: “What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor.” (Romans 11:7, 8)
As I have mentioned before, it appears that there are clear covenantal and time-related statements contained in these passages. There is little question that this group (God’s elect) were contemporaries to Paul. In fact, more specifically, they were “the remnant” which Paul referred to in Romans 11. This remnant described by Paul, was apparently a group of people chosen by God by grace. See verse 5: “So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.” To quote myself from my previous column:
Paul knows he is talking to gentiles in Rome ("I am talking to you gentiles" v.13) so he has to go into greater details in order to make gentiles understand who this “elect” group of people was comprised of. He goes on to describe Israel as a tree, out of which branches were broken off (non believing Jews), and into which other branches were grafted (believing gentiles). This my friends is what is being described as the “elect” across the New Testament. Roman Christians were part of the elect – Paul warns them: “otherwise, you also will be cut off.” (v. 22)
So then, since the word elect literally means “to pick out” or to “choose” it goes to reason that the remnant of Romans 11, at that present time, was the group called “the elect” in the New Testament. Again, to repeat what I have said before, the typological relevance here cannot be ignored since we see a picture of Israel wandering in the wilderness for forty years. The non-believing Jews were cut-off from the riches of milk and honey of the Promised Land, and specific people were elected to prepare Israel for the entrance into the Promised Land. They were in fact a sort of first fruits who served as a picture of what was to come for the whole world: “In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.” (James 1:18)
So James’ presentation of the elect as first fruits supports this argument even further. God exercised His will and brought forth the elect, so that they would be a first fruit among His creatures. These first-century first fruit believers were elected and chosen for a specific purpose: they were to usher in the returning Christ and prepare the way for the harvester to return and reap his harvest. In fact, Preterism to me only makes sense if we keep the elect in the first-century time frame. The days of tribulation were kept short because of the elect:
Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.” (Mark 13:20)
Make a note that just being part of the elect did not mean exemption from the perils of the first-century circumstances: “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.” (Matthew 24:24)
Fortunately, Jesus was to return soon and gather them back to Himself: “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.” (Matthew 24:31)
With these time-specific statements in mind, we see several elements that cannot be ignored: the elect did exist in the first century; the elect were a remnant of Israel chosen by grace; the elect were a first fruit among believers; the elect were gathered at the Parousia.
The elect as the first fruit
For westerners, the concept of first fruits probably makes little sense. Yes, we all are told that it teaches us to be generous and give to God from our surplus, we all hear about it and we have a rough idea of what it means, but rarely do we look into the deeper meaning of first fruits, and that keeps us from gaining a deeper understanding of God’s word. When believers were told they were a kind of first fruits, this had a very deep meaning to them, and it brought to their minds things which many of us never think of today. I will give a short historical recapitulation that may help us better understand the relationship between first fruits and the first-century believers. Context in this instance is everything.
The offering of Biccurim (the first fruits) was mandated by Exodus 23:16 and Leviticus 23:16 and because of the specific counting of days required, Biccurim was not to be brought to Jerusalem before Pentecost or after the Feast of Dedication of the Temple. This restricted the offering of first fruits to a very specific time frame. There were further restrictions placed on Biccurim. For example, first fruits were not allowed to be brought in from outside Israel: “They may not bring First fruits from beyond Jordan since that is not a land flowing with milk and honey.” (Mishnah, Bikkurim, i.10) – as an exercise, compare this restriction with Paul’s description of the elect being a remnant of Israel in Romans 11.
The method by which first fruits were chosen was very unique and special. The selection of the first fruits was a special event. Edersheim is of great help in understanding this event: “The head of the family accompanied by his child would go into his field and mark off certain portions from among the most promising of the crop. For only the best might be presented to the Lord, and it was set apart before it was yet ripe, the solemn dedication being, however, afterwards renewed, when it was actually cut.” (Alfred Edersheim, The Temple, Its Ministry and Services, Hedrickson, pp. 306)
According to Mishnah, “When a man goes down to his field and sees for the first time a ripe fig or a ripe cluster of grapes or a ripe pomegranate, he binds it round with reed-grass and says, ‘Lo, these are First-fruits’” (Mishnah, Bikkurim, iii.1) This yearly event would not only set aside the first fruit, but it would also remind all Israel of what belongs to Jehovah. The marking of the first fruit would be just as much about giving to Jehovah as it would be about the understanding that ultimately the entire harvest belongs to Him.
David Curtis has done some fantastic work on the feasts of the Lord and how they point to a first-century parousia. I encourage all readers to study the feasts in detail. The feasts not only prove preterism to be true, but they offer an insight into how God works and how God related to His people. David Curtis showed how each major event in the New Testament, starting with the birth and death of Christ, and ending with His return in A.D. 70 either happened during a feast or were pointed to by one of the feasts. Therefore the purpose and the offering of first fruits between Pentecost of the dedication of the temple are highly picturesque and are helping us place the elect in a first century context.
What is obvious but still worthy to make note of, is that the first fruits are chosen based on their merits, i.e. the head of the household (with his child – which in itself is something to take note of) goes into the field and elects the first fruits. Furthermore, the first fruits are not the harvest, and the harvest is not the first fruits – this seems to be not as obvious to some folks. In fact, the first fruits were set apart from the rest of the harvest while they were still green, and they were marked as being set apart throughout the spring and summer days.
Now, as if this was not relevant enough, let’s look at the actual dedication of the first fruits, which is just as fascinating. I will again quote Edersheim: “As a family feast, the presentation of the first fruits would enter more than any other rite into family religion and family life. Not a child in Israel – at least of those who inhabited the Holy Land – could have been ignorant of all connected with this service, and that even though it had never been taken to the beautiful ‘city of the Great King,’ not gazed with marvel and awe at the Temple of Jehovah.” (Alfred Edersheim, The Temple, Its Ministry and Services, Hedrickson, pp. 306)
The dedication of the first fruit was not just a family event, but a national event. Since not every family was able to travel to Jerusalem, each of the twenty-four districts would combine their offerings together and send representatives to the temple instead. While still difficult, the trip was to be slow, and a reason of rejoicing because it was a privilege to make this pilgrimage. Remember the words of Peter encouraging the elect to steadfast because the revelation of Jesus Christ is not far: “In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 1:6-7)
When the procession would get closer to Jerusalem, the leader would summon the ranks of the procession with Jeremiah 31:6, saying “Arise, and let us go up to Zion, to the Lord our God” at which the people in the group would answer with Psalm122, “I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of Jehovah.” With this in mind, the picture of the 144,000 in Revelation is inescapable: “Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.” (Revelation 14:1) The first fruits, marked with the Father’s name, have finally been dedicated to Him and they have made to Zion, to the Lord: “They were purchased from among men and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb.” (Revelation14:4)
Finally, when the procession entered the gates of Jerusalem, they sang Psalm 122:2, saying “Our feet stand within they gates, O Jerusalem.” When they reached the Temple Mount, they all sang Psalm 150, “Praise ye Jehovah! Praise God in His sanctuary, Praise Him in the firmament of His power” just as those who came out of the great tribulation and the angels sang in Revelation 7 “Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen.” (Revelation 7:12) Another noteworthy thing is that the multitude described in Revelation 7 was holding palm branches: "they were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands". This is again, fascinating in its similarity with the fact that the dedication of first fruits was to cease at the Feast of the Dedication of the Temple, which was celebrated much as the feast of the Tabernacles without mourning and fasting, and the crowds using palm branches and singing Psalms to celebrate both the dedication of Biccurim and proclaim the restoration of the Temple to the people after being defiled by Antiochus Epiphanes. How striking and important these seemingly minor details are when later we hear the temple proclamation in Revelation 21:3 where we read: “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people and God Himself will be among them.” (Revelation 21:3)
When the procession brought the baskets of first fruits to the High Priest, each man carrying a basket would recite Deuteronomy 26:3 “I declare this day to the LORD my God that I have entered the land which the LORD swore to our fathers to give us” after which he would set down the basked of first fruits and continue to recite the rest of the passage which is nothing but a reminder of Israel’s own setting apart from among the nations, deliverance from Egypt and the bringing into the promised land. The man would close this dedication by saying “Now behold, I have brought the first of the produce of the ground which You, O LORD have given me.” Some have pointed out to Jesus’ prayer for his disciples as evidence that His atonement was limited, however Christ’s prayer in John 17 in fact resembles the dedication of the first fruits: “Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.” This hagiazo in verse 17 is a setting apart process, much similar to the setting apart of Biccurim; i.e. Christ is praying that the disciples were to be set apart by the truth, through the word, not just the disciples only, but those who believe in Him through their word. This is specifically a prayer for the dedication of the disciples and their followers as first fruits; the Word set them apart; they were marked as first fruits, and Christ is praying that they may be kept safe and “away from the evil one” while He is no longer with them; the sanctification nature of Christ’s prayer is clear: the first of the elect were being finally set apart, in a typological sense the spring was there, hope for a plentiful harvest was at hand and the harvest would soon take place.
It is more and more evident now that the idea of first century first fruit believers has a much higher and deeper meaning than we first thought. It is also evident that a certain level of familiarity with the Biccurim was being expected by the inspired authors, which is why the first-century audience was not confused at all about the meaning and the relevance of the elect. It is likely that the audience was familiar even with the very exact numbers and percentages required to be given of each harvest, and I would not be surprised if the actual number of first century elect believers matched the percentages required for Biccurim; however this is only my speculation and it is impossible to prove such a thing.
In light of this understanding of the importance of first fruits and their dedication, it is important to return to Romans 11 where Paul discusses how the first fruits relate to the harvest. In Romans 11:16 Paul writes: “If the part of the dough offered as first fruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.” This is nothing but a follow-up of his previous thought, “For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?” This brings us back to the nature of unlimited atonement of Christ.
Atonement for the whole of the kosmos
One particular passage that came up when discussing the extent of Christ’s atonement was 1 John 2:2 where John writes: “and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.” The stipulation here is that Jesus is the propitiation and offering to God for the whole world.
Some favoring a limited atonement position have suggested that the meaning of world (kosmos) in this instance is not a reference to “all human beings” but to “gentiles.” Someone even quoted several popular commentaries supporting this view. Others have suggested that “world” refers to the “Jews.” In light of the internal evidence and the supposed common authorship of the Gospel of John and the epistles, I would lean more towards the latter suggestion, but even then there appear to be a few insurmountable problems.
In the Romanian language, just as in Greek, we have several words which can be translated as “world.” We have “lume” which can mean “people in general” or even “everyone else in the world” but also could mean “the worldly people, worldliness” (from a Christian perspective). We also have “cosmos” which means “the entire world or universe” and lastly we have “pamint” which can mean literally “the dirt, the planet” or “the people of the planet.” In Greek, things seem to get even more complicated. The inhabited world was “oikomene,” the earth was “ghe,” and “pantes” (all) was sometimes automatically understood to mean all men. Lastly “kosmos” always meant “system, or universe” as in, all the physical creation. In comparison with these examples, English on the other hand seems to have the problem of being much more generic when it comes down to specifically defining all the aspects of some of these words.
With this in mind, it stands to reason that it would be easy for an English-speaking person to read John’s words and misunderstand them, for reasons that are complex in nature. These linguistic, cultural and historical aspects of the text should be looked at carefully. Because we are operating here in a Preterist framework, we should be consistent and true to our assumption that the kosmos, or world, was changed somehow by the return of Christ at the fall of the temple. This is in fact confirmed by John throughout his epistles.
In 1 John 2:15-16 we read (my translation) “do not be loving the system or things in the system; if anyone is loving the system, the love of the father is not in him. For all things in the system, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the showiness of life is not out of the father but out of the system.” I purposefully translated this in a more literal manner for the sake of the conversation, and also purposefully translated kosmos as system because it is evident that John’s use of the word is indicative of his view of the world as a system opposed to, or in opposition to God. Continuing in verse 17, John writes “but the system is passing away, and the lust of it. The one doing the will of God is remaining into the age.” Evidently, John’s contemporary kosmos was in the process of passing away at that time. This seems to give credence to the idea that perhaps the system which John is describing is the system of the Jewish Law, which was indeed passing away at that time. I do disagree however, because the world vs. God theme we see in John’s epistles grows out of his main point: “…and he is the propitiation for our sins, not only for ours, but for the whole of the system.” (1 John 2:2). It therefore makes no sense for John to tell his audience that Christ's propitiation was for "the whole Law" or perhaps "all Jews." Even with this controversy, taking "the whole of kosmos" to mean "gentiles in general" as our Calvinist brothers suggest is simply unacceptable for the reasons already outlined.
Consequently, it is evident that John's use of kosmos in this instance is a reference to the worldly system be it governments, kingdoms, and humanity in general, a system opposed to, and separated from God.
Because of the language of the text points to the spiritual aspects of the kosmos (the lust –desire- of it), “the whole of the system” should not be necessarily perceived as including inanimate objects for example. Some extreme dispensationalists would indeed suggest that sin has corrupted even physical inanimate objects, demanding that the physical planet is consequently also corrupted by sin, which means it has to also be destroyed. Note however that John is focusing on the misses, lusts and sins of the system, and unless one can show that rocks and trees can sin, we should confidently affirm that the “whole of the system” is a reference to mankind. As a result, the passage therefore teaches that God’s victory over sin is taking the whole system of the world into a new age where: “The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.” (Revelation 21:24) Therefore the change emerging as a result of Christ’s parousia has cosmological implications: the whole of the kosmos passed away – a new heaven and a new earth (a new kosmos) is now in place, where righteousness dwells, where God’s tabernacle is and where God can dwell.
To pre-empt more accusations that I hate Calvin, I will be the first to say that Calvin’s theology is right on the mark; for a futurist that is. Calvin read the Scripture as a futurist, understood atonement as a futurist and perceived election as a futurist. His theology is therefore quite accurate from a futurist perspective, so the doctrine of the elect is hardly something Calvin should be blamed for; eschatology is another story. The surprising thing for me is that Preterists continue to adopt limited atonement and election as if nothing changed in AD 70. The truth is that everything changed!
It must be pointed out that the narrative of God’s deliverance does not start with Abraham; it rather starts with the first offender, Eve. The big picture in the redemptive story is depicting sinless mankind (all of them) before the tree of life. It is depicting the cursed mankind (all of them) “between the trees”, and at last mankind (all of them) after the tree. The nations will be healed by the leaves of the tree (Revelation 22:2); the curse will be no more (Revelation 22:3). We still see a separation between the saved and the lost, though the difference now is that we see the gates of the New Jerusalem being wide open for the whole of the kosmos to enter freely.
The story is universal; the propitiation is universal; the atonement is universal. As offensive as this may sound to a Calvinist, salvation has been made available by God to the holou tou kosmou – the whole of the kosmos. The first fruit elect believers of the first century were chosen to be saved but also to be a first fruit dedication to God, in preparation for the harvest and in acknowledgment that all things ultimately belong to Him:
“I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.” (Revelation 14)




Mitch wrote:
Salvation/eternal life only benefits those who believe.
Mitch what is your definition of salvation/eternal life?
MichaelB: OK - now we are getting somewhere. Davo admits that there is law in the New Covenant.
And THAT law is LOVE – love God by loving others.
MichaelB: If you don't love your neighbor and believe in him what are you?
A hypocrite.
MichaelB: You are still in darkness.
The darkness of the OC that was passing still had a grip on some who fell under its pharisaic hypocrisy of saying with the mouth but not living its reality.
MichaelB: You remain in death. You are still a "murderer"
Actions speak louder than words – thus hatred in the heart equates to murder, and so was and is not befitting those who were called to minister the gospel of "life in Christ" when or if in fact they were ministering death through the law i.e., casting aspersions [judging] each other. The passages 1Jn 2:7-11; 3:14-15, 23-24 are somewhat rhetorical in that John in writing to believers was showing the logical fallacy of claiming to be one thing – "light", yet in practice stumbling around in "darkness".
MichaelB: Davo writes:
Jn 3:16-17 For God so loved Israel that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever of Israel believes in Him should not perish in the Parousia but find life unto/into the age. For God did not send His Son into Israel to condemn Israel, but that Israel through Him might be delivered.
Davo - who of this group that you call "Israel" was going to receive this "life into the age"?
"whoever of Israel believes in Him should not perish" – need you ask?
MichaelB: …are you saying that Jesus died for them all but only saved some?
Of course Jesus died for all – Virgil's main contention of this article that God's atonement is 100% comprehensive is 100% correct. The atonement brought redemption for Israel and thus reconciliation for the world. Those who grasp this reality in Christ are "saved to serve" as priests of God. Believers are priests – priests don't serve priests, they serve the people i.e., the world – thy neighbour.
MichaelB: And how can "everlasting life" which you have conveniently change to "life into the age" mean that if "everlasting life" is something that they didn't receive until the "age to come"?
Luke 18
30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."
Glad you asked. What they were receiving or "inheriting" [life] "in part" [1Cor 13:9] in that age would in the consummation of the ages be received "to the full" [Jn 10:10]. What they were receiving as a down payment was the guarantee of future fulfilment [2Cor 1:22; 5:5; Eph 1:14]. That's how "life into the age" was for the first century believers.
MichaelB: Also - if eternal life was part of the inheritance...
And dead guys were promised the same inheritance but "eternal life" really only means physically "living into the age" are you saying these guys didn't receive the same eternal inheritance?
It doesn't "only mean" surviving into the coming age [as many we know didn't], but that WAS the tangible reality for many, yet the covenantal aspect of "eternal life" was the qualitative reality of "knowing" life with God – hence Jn 17:3, irrespective of the grave or not.
MichaelB: Davo constantly quotes:
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1Jn 2:2
If Jesus was a propitiation for sin of all men that ever lived, how could somone die in their sins? Was his blood not a good enough "propitiation"?
John 8
23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
Those who died in their sins never came to know the reality of their forgiveness in this life, that in no way negates to reality of their forgiveness, it just means that through their arrogance and ignorance [1Tim 1:13] they did not grasp what was theirs through Christ totally comprehensive and effective propitiation.
davo – pantelism.com –
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1Jn 2:2
davo – pantelism.com
Davo wrote:
Those who died in their sins never came to know the reality of their forgiveness in this life, that in no way negates to reality of their forgiveness, it just means that through their arrogance and ignorance [1Tim 1:13] they did not grasp what was theirs through Christ totally comprehensive and effective propitiation.
There you have it. Jesus' atonement was not good enough. They still had to be punished for their sins even though Jesus died for their sins and had forgiveness. Thanks Davo. This really sheds light on the outrageous doctrine you propose.
By the way Davo - to use 1Tim 1:13 as a proof tex you have to be nuts. 1st it says nothing about anyone dying. Also - look at the surrounding verses.
1 Timothy 1
12And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath ENABLED ME, for that he COUNTED ME FAITHFUL, putting me into the ministry;
13Even though I was once a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent man, I was shown MERCY (I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy and I will harden whom I will harden) because I acted in ignorance and unbelief. 14The GRACE of our Lord was poured out on me abundantly, ALONG WITH THE FAITH and love that are in Christ Jesus. 15Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners—of whom I am the worst. 16But for that very reason I was shown mercy so that in me, the worst of sinners, Christ Jesus might display his unlimited patience as an example FOR THOSE WHO WOULD BELIEVE ON HIM AND RECEIVE ETERNAL LIFE.
How was grace poured out Davo.
Romans 5
2through whom we have gained ACCES BY FAITH into this grace in which we now stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.
Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—
So Davo are you saying that those who do not believe do not receive eternal life after death?
This ought to be interesting... =)
Unlike yourself, I think anyone with an ounce of depth in their thinking [whether they agree or not] can well see the point I'm making.
davo – pantelism.com –
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1Jn 2:2
davo – pantelism.com
Davo - if "whole world" means every person that ever lived in 1 John 2:
1 John 2:
2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
How come "whole world" doesn't mean the same in these verses?
1 John 5
18We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. 19We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
Revelation 13
3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.
Things that make ya go hmmm =)
MichaelB: Davo - if "whole world" means every person that ever lived…
Perhaps you assume a "whole" lot Michael – I'm waiting for Virgil to post a response I've submitted a week or so ago to Sam's last article, perhaps you can wait; hmmm =)
davo – pantelism.com –
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1Jn 2:2
davo – pantelism.com
1 John 2:
2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
Davo - 1 John 2 is the exact same event as in John 10.
John 10
11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
He lays down his life for the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers who were in the whole world and made them one flock.
Davo - if "whole world" means every person that ever lived in 1 John 2:
1 John 2:
2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
How come "whole world" doesn't mean the same in these verses?
1 John 5
18We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. 19We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
Revelation 13
3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.
Im pretty sure this will be my last post here on planet preterist. I would of used a blog, but I have not been giving one.
This used to be a "fair and balanced" website, but sadly that is not the case anymore. The God defined throughout scripture is not liked here by most, so people have created a god aka idol to fit to what they want.A god that is nice,fuzzy ,who wouldnt hurt a fly. Who at the time of 70 ad, said "Hell, I think everything is ok now, have at it boys."
So, How can one argue with someone elses idol useing scripture? You cant, that is the issue,and will remain the issue as long as this continues.
pwb writes: The God defined throughout scripture is not liked here by most, so people have created a god aka idol to fit to what they want.
Jer says: That's nice... Since you seem to agree with Michael on Calvinism, I'll use the two of you as an example. Do you think that you and Michael agree on every aspect of God? If not, which one of you is worshipping an idol? You see, everyone's perception is limited by his or her experience and knowledge. In this sense, everyone has a subjective view of God. Let's be consistent. By your definition, you're an "idolater," too.
That can't be possible Jer, because he has ALL of scripture behind his view of God ;).
Oops, what does "all" really mean?
Jer writes:
That's nice... Since you seem to agree with Michael on Calvinism, I'll use the two of you as an example. Do you think that you and Michael agree on every aspect of God? If not, which one of you is worshipping an idol? You see, everyone's perception is limited by his or her experience and knowledge. In this sense, everyone has a subjective view of God. Let's be consistent. By your definition, you're an "idolater," too.
There is a difference between people who will be Bereans...
Acts 17
11Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what Paul said was true.
and people like this...
2 Peter 3
16He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
What Whiteboy dislikes is the Universalist tendancy to ignore the problems with their view such as these below for example...
1 John 2:
2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 John 2 is the exact same event as in John 10.
John 10
11"I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.
26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
He lays down his life for the Jewish believers and the Gentile believers who were in the whole world and made them one flock.
If "whole world" means every person that ever lived in 1 John 2:
1 John 2:
2He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.
How come "whole world" doesn't mean the same in these verses?
1 John 5
18We know that anyone born of God does not continue to sin; the one who was born of God keeps him safe, and the evil one cannot harm him. 19We know that we are children of God, and that the whole world is under the control of the evil one.
Revelation 13
3One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed. The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.
No one ever addresses these issues. Instead the scriptures that speak contrary to your view are never adressed, they are trimmed away as dough that overhangs outside of your "cooky cutter" theology.
Paige writes:
That can't be possible Jer, because he has ALL of scripture behind his view of God ;). Oops, what does "all" really mean?
Thats a good question Paige. Does ALL really always mean ALL? Yes or no? Please just give me an answer. Does ALL below mean EVERY SINGLE PERSON in Judea?
Mark 1
5The whole Judean countryside and ALL the people of Jerusalem went out to him. Confessing their sins, they were baptized by him in the Jordan River.
Let me know if any of you would like to do a friendly public debate on the Atonement of Christ.
Acts 18
27When Apollos wanted to go to Achaia, the brothers encouraged him and wrote to the disciples there to welcome him. On arriving, he was a great help to those who by grace had believed. 28For he vigorously refuted the Jews in public debate, proving from the Scriptures that Jesus was the Christ.
I assume you are the "Berean" and those who disagree with you are "ignorant and unstable"?
MichaelB:
What Whiteboy dislikes is the Universalist tendancy to ignore the problems with their view... No one ever addresses these issues. Instead the scriptures that speak contrary to your view are never adressed, they are trimmed away as dough that overhangs outside of your "cooky cutter" theology.
And Calvinists are never guilty of this? If you stopped committing logical fallacies and pointing out bogus fallacies, maybe others would listen :) Seriously though, I have been asking Calvinists to address some issues and I've been ignored for the most part. However, I do not feel the need to call anyone an "idolater" or intimate that someone is "ignorant and unstable."
Acquiring knowledge and then beating each other over the head with it... Yep, that's what the Good News is all about. Afterall, ο θεος γνωσις εστιν, right? ;)
First of all Jer - you didn't adress my questions about "all" and "whole world" - which just proves my point. You guys can't just say - yes - I see it is used in various ways. That is just too hard for you to admit.
Secondly - I didn't say I was the Berean and you were unstable - I was just showing that there are different attitudes to looking at scriptures and so far I haven't seen you guys deal with the scriptures that seem to contradict your views. That makes me question your real agenda. I don't think your agenda is truth.
Thirdly - I can not speak for all "Calvinists" but whenever presented with a verse or question - such as 1 John 2 - I answer it with scripture and context. 1 John 2 is the same event as John 10 (two flocks of sheep that "believe" made one and for whom the "Shepherd" layed down His life) and I also demonstrated that "whole world" doesn't always mean every person that ever lived.
MichaelB: so far I haven't seen you guys deal with the scriptures that seem to contradict your views. That makes me question your real agenda. I don't think your agenda is truth.
Jer: Ok. I didn't address you questions. You didn't address mine. Your agenda is truth. Mine is not.
BTW, I'm not a universalist so I'm not sure who "you guys" is referring to.
Considering both "MichaelB" and the "whiteboy" are Calvinists they sure display a lot of roar emotion – yet somehow they Rod and co seem to throw that label around ad nauseam.
Like I said MichaelB, as soon as Virgil posts my article you'll have an answer to your vexing question – though no doubt you'll ad hom around that one too.
davo – pantelism.com –
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1Jn 2:2
davo – pantelism.com
Davo writes: Considering both "MichaelB" and the "whiteboy" are Calvinists they sure display a lot of roar emotion – yet somehow they Rod and co seem to throw that label around ad nauseam.
Jer says: Rod and I are friends. We can discuss things without getting nasty. I question his Calvinism. He questions whatever label it is he has for me :) However, we never question each other's character.
Unfortunately, this has not been my experience with everyone. When some people are pressed the conversation deteriorates into piffle or name-calling. This, to me, is a clear sign of one's inability to be objective. It's a defensive posture - a juvenile one at that. See it for what it is.
yes yes Im ignorant and unstable, wheres my med's at ?
Maybe I should take davo's advice and |convert| my life and soul to pantelism so I can see the truth.
This Universalist Ship is sinking,but do not worry!
ALL dont drown : )
Interesting,
Why was David Curtis' excellent article addressing universalism removed from the front page? It was more current than even Sam Frost's article yet you removed it from the front page???
Curtis' article speaks directly to the Arminian tendency of Universalism. Is that why you removed it?
At any rate, people can access David Curtis' article ==> HERE or at a website I'm not allowed to mention here ;-)
Curtis' article speaks directly to the Arminian tendency of Universalism. Is that why you removed it?
Roderick...you need to lighten up man. No, that's not why the article was "removed."
Unbroken, continuous fellowship with the Father.
John 17:3 - This is eternal life, that they may know You,
the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.
I asked: Mitch what is your definition of eternal life?
Mith answered:
Unbroken, continuous fellowship with the Father.
Mitch isnt everlasting life the same thing as eternal life? Why doesn't everlasting contempt mean the same thing? IE unbroken continous dis-fellowship with the Father?
Daniel 12
2And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
First a disclaimer - I am not a Greek scholar, but I have slept at a Holiday Inn Express... oh, and done a little reading on this subject lately.
From several sources that I have accesses (not the least of which is a best friend who is fluent in classical Greek) everlasting and eternal can mean a couple of different things. Coming from the same Greek adjective "aionios", it can refer to everlasting/eternal or it refer to a everlasting/eternal source.
It is quite possible I suppose that the "life" referred to in Daniel (and elsewhere) could be either "everlasting /eternal life" or "life that comes from the Everlasting". The same could also be true with any other reference to "eternal" or aionios.
From what I understand there's quite a lot of discussion these days on that question.
I happily take this opportunity to point you to this url -
http://www.willamette.edu/~ttalbott/aionios.htm
Gives a much better explanation than I have, and source it for that point.
Peace,
Mitch
Mitch - if it is only temporary punishment in Daniel 12 is it temporary life too?
Matthew 25
46"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."
Not only that but it can not just be making it through the end of the age because eternal life is given in the age to come.
Luke 18
30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."
Are you willing to make these "eternals" temporary also?
Roamans 1
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
Romans 16
26but now revealed and made known through the prophetic writings by the command of the eternal God, so that all nations might believe and obey him—
2 Corinthians 5
1Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
1 Timothy 1
17Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory for ever and ever. Amen
Hebrews 9
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance
2 Peter 1
11and you will receive a rich welcome into the eternal kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
You have thrown 8 separate verses at me, (in this instance alone) I suppose in some effort to prove a point. I could do the same thing, but someone reminded me of something that I will heretofore ascribe myself to - you can see the context of a passage of Scripture usually without stepping outside of the Book inwhich it appears. Just because a word is used in one way in one Book, doesn't nesessarily mean it is used in the same way in another, especially if authored by a different authors. CONTEXT is everything.
I have also learned another valuable lesson. I have no intention of falling (again) for these circular discussions that never have a resolution. I made that mistake in the beginning. I won't fall for it again.
I'll close with this. White Throne of Judgement (mentioned once in Revelation, a highly symbolic book, and so far as I can tell nowhere else) has transpired. Judgement has taken place, Christ reigns in Glory over the New Heavens and the New Earth. Whatever you choose to believe happened to the 70 AD elect and non-elect has happened.
Scripture promises that in the end all would be reconciled unto God through Christ. If that has happend, then we've reached the end of this discussion - Virgil's hypothessis is correct.
It's been fun.
Mitch
MichaelB: I asked: Mitch what is your definition of eternal life?
Mith answered:
Unbroken, continuous fellowship with the Father.
Mitch isnt everlasting life the same thing as eternal life? Why doesn't everlasting contempt mean the same thing? IE unbroken continous dis-fellowship with the Father?
Mitch, MichaelB has a habit of arguing in endless-loops when he get stuck with any relevant or though provoking reasoning.
"Eternal' or "everlasting life" is NOT speaking of some endless linear duration post grave, but as you rightly pointed out by the verse you mentioned [Jn 17:3], this clearly signifies the totality or comprehensive nature that "eternal" carries in regards to a vital relationship with God in this present life – thus the "everlasting contempt" speaks of the total and comprehensive nature and gravity of the historic shame experienced in this life by those who were thus "judged" [same meaning as "condemned"] in that "end of the age" period, culminating in the Parousia. For them this was their perpetual shame as it applies in this life. That in no way however takes away from the fact that where sin abounded grace and mercy much more abounded from God toward them in Christ.
When speaking of the nature and attributes of God we speak in terms of His "eternal love" etc, and understand such qualitatively i.e., the comprehensive or total extent of His love – IOW it is not measurable or fathomable in human terms. Yet even in the "hidden-ness" of the eternal this sense of finite reach can be shown and understood biblically thus:
antiquity perpetuity.
When speaking of "eternal" as it relates to man this "qualitative" nature of "eternal" always fits within man's earthly timeframe – thus "eternal" can be understood as "unto or into the age" as is often rendered in Young's translation for the word "eternal". This can further be evidenced in the following Old and New Testament Greek texts where "forever" [eternal] and "the age" are both designated by the one Greek word aionos:
Gen13:15 οτι πασαν την γην ην συ ορας σοι δωσω αυτην και τω σπερματι σου εως του αιωνος.
Gen 13:15 for all the land which you see I give to you and your descendants forever.
Mt 24:3 καθημενου δε αυτου επι του ορους των ελαιων προσηλθον αυτω οι μαθηται κατ ιδιαν λεγοντες ειπε ημιν ποτε ταυτα εσται και τι το σημειον της σης παρουσιας και της συντελειας του αιωνος.
Mt 24:3 Now as He sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be? And what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?”
So we have the "του αιωνος" being translated accordingly above and therefore indicative of the limited or defined nature that "forever" [everlasting, eternal] CAN have, i.e., it fits within a specified era relative to the subject matter at hand.
davo – pantelism.com –
davo – pantelism.com
Davo -
Thanks for the enlightening input - it sure is nice having friends who understand Greek! : ) You make #2.
One of the points I was trying to make to brother Michael was simply what you illustrated very well (in contrast to my own efforts. My understanding is that "eternal" can as easily speak to the quality/characteristic of something as easily as it can it's duration.
And as my other point tried in vain to explain - context is everything.
Peace, Davo.
Mitch
Here are the words of Jesus again,
"And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
—Punishment/Greek=Kolasis, from Kolazo, meaning punishment or torment when combined with the Greek word “aionios” (eternal)
—Eternal/Greek=Aionios, from Aion, meaning perpetual, eternal, everlasting.
In this passage, Aionos is used for both “punishment” and “life.” The same Aionos is used in John 3:16 for “everlasting life.” As much as universalists have tried, you cannot scale down Aionos to mean something less than endless eternity for those being punished without reducing the “eternal life” of those who will be in the presence of God.
Try doing that with this passage,
And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne… and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. (Revelation 20:11-15)
These are people. They are thrown into something called “the lake of fire". Temporarily? According to some erroneous teaching, yes. According to the Bible, no. The “lake of fire” is forever and ever,...
And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. (Revelation 20:10)
—Forever And Ever/Greek= Eis Tous Aionas Ton Aionon
And when I saw Him, I fell at His feet as a dead man. And He laid His right hand upon me, saying, "Do not be afraid; I am the first and the last, and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore… (Revelation 1:17-18)
—Forevermore/Greek= Eis Tous Aionas Ton Aionon (same exactly as above)
Which Eis Tous Aionas Ton Aionon shall we change? The one in Revelation 20:10 or the one in Revelation 1:17-18? If I was some “teacher” trying to sound Biblical, I couldn't possibly drop the Eis Tous Aionas Ton Aionon of Revelation 1:17-18. But if my goal was to shore up the sandy edifice of universalism, I would be forced to drop the Eis Tous Aionas Ton Aionon of Revelation 20:10. This is called “distortion.”
So, call it Hell, call it The Lake of Fire, the "chastening' place, or call it The Other Place— whatever you want to call it— people will be there eternally, and it is not fellowship with God. This makes universalist-theory impossible. Universalism has added to and taken away from the Bible. Where it fits a preconceived supposition that is not in the Bible, passages are lifted from their context to try and prove what the Bible doesn’t say. In my opinion, where passages are so clear as to be indisputable, such as those above, universalism retreats to pseudo-scholarship of convenience which no competent original language scholar agrees with, or simply retreats to side-tracking issues or simply rehashes an out of context verse such as “For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive” without setting the verse into the context of the whole letter of Romans which was amply supplied and explained earlier.
Michael -
If you are a Preterist, then you would concur that the symbolic events mentioned in Revelation are history, culminating in 70 A.D. - Lake of Fire, White Throne Judgement, etc.
Therefore, if these have already taken place, where does that leave us now, Christ now having reconciled all things unto himself?
Just curious...
Mitch - The New Jerusalem was an event that happened and culminating in 70 AD. Is the New Jerusalem still here? What is it? And how do you get into it? And what happens if you don't get in it?
Mitch writes:
Christ now having reconciled all things unto himself?
Mitch what were the "all things"?
Universalists all quote Scripture texts in support of their views, and by the manipulation of texts removed from their context, they make out a plausible case for the positions they hold. There are many verses that use "all" and "world" in relation to redemption. When looking at these verses, we must keep in mind the primary rule of hermeneutics, the "analogy of faith" - the rule that Scripture is to interpret Scripture. This means that no part of Scripture can be interpreted in such a way as to render it in conflict with what is clearly taught elsewhere in Scripture.
Let's begin our study by looking at our text in Colossians:
Colossians 1:20 (NKJV) and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross.
Is Paul teaching universalism, namely, that all creatures will eventually be saved and none will be punished forever? Does this mean that one day God will reconcile to himself all unbelievers who have ever lived and even the devil? I don't think so. What is this verse saying then? Let me try to explain:
Colossians 3:10-11 (NKJV) and have put on the new man who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him, 11 where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcised nor uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave nor free, but Christ is all and in all.
Paul is describing Christians as people who have "put on the new man, who is renewed in knowledge according to the image of Him who created him." Then verse 11 begins with the word "where" to show that what he is about to say is limited in its scope to the sphere of this renewed humanity he was just asking about in verse 10.
He says, "Here there cannot be Greek and Jew, circumcised and uncircumcised, barbarian, Scythian, slave, free man; but Christ is all, and in all." Now if you took the sentence"Christ is all and in all" by itself, you might say that it taught universalism: "Christ is all and in all human beings without exception." But we know that is not what he means, because the verse begins with "where" - that is here in the sphere of the church; "here" - in the new humanity that Christ is creating, He is all and in all.
This is the way I think we are to understand Colossians 1:20. Look how the paragraph is organized. The scope of verse 15-17 is all creation. The whole universe is in view. And the point is that Christ is preeminent over all creation, because He made it and he holds it all together.
But then in verses 18-21, the focus shifts and the scope is no longer the whole universe but the new creation, namely the church. Notice how verse 18 turns from creation to the church: "He is the head of the body, the church." in this context of the church, we read verse 20, that "he will reconcile all things to himself in heaven and on earth." So I think the "all things" in verse 20 should be limited the same way the "all" in 3:11 was limited - to the church.
From Davo's website:
Christ's Cross – His death, reconciled-redeemed humanity en masse back to God [Isa 53:11].
Davo uses Isa 53:11 as a supposed prooftext that Jesus reconciled all humanity. However when we look a few verses further we see something quite interesting,
Isa 54:
1 "Sing, O barren woman,
you who never bore a child;
burst into song, shout for joy,
you who were never in labor;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband,"
says the LORD.
Where do we see that again?
24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written:
"Be glad, O barren woman,
who bears no children;
break forth and cry aloud,
you who have no labor pains;
because more are the children of the desolate woman
than of her who has a husband."
28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."
ah good to see you clocking up some visits to my site - keep it up :)
davo – pantelism.com
Oh Davo - I go to your site all of the time...it is the funniest site on the internet =)
Mitch, the difficulty that MichaelB has is that due to his unabashed distain for "universalism" he cannot grasp the pantelistic views I'm putting forth, and that's ok, but what I'm sharing IS pantelism. Yes pantelism is universalistic, it is also preteristic. Partial-preterism is also prêteristic; with regards to SIN most evangelicals ARE "universalists" – do you follow my drift? :)
I'm currently waiting for Virgil to put up on the site a response I've made to Sam Frost's last article, as it deals with some of these "supposed problems" that MichaelB feels undermines universalism – they may or may not, but that is not my concern, those bothering to follow along can draw their own conclusions, as we all inevitably do – I'm dealing with pantelism.
The understanding that "everlasting" has boundaries according to context is borne out in one example with the "everlasting covenant of circumcision" – it was only ever "everlasting" in relation to how long God was dealing with a specific people in a specific way for a specific purpose, i.e., it had a Divinely intended end.
So, understanding certain possible time constraints allows for a more consistent prêteristic reading of Scripture. For example, here is a pantelistic way of viewing John 3:16-17 – and seeing that MichaelB doesn't like universalizing "all" or "world" out of context, supposedly, then try this:
Jn 3:16-17 For God so loved Israel that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever of Israel believes in Him should not perish in the Parousia but find life unto/into the age. For God did not send His Son into Israel to condemn Israel, but that Israel through Him might be delivered.
As you can see from the high-lighted, this puts "the world" of the apostle John squarely with Israel – of whom Jesus WAS the great redeemer Messiah [Mt 1:21; Lk 1:68], and as Rom 11:15 states without equivocation: "Israel's redemption [acceptance BY God] was the world's reconciliation" – and "world" here for Paul is CLEARLY not limited – again textual context.
davo – pantelism.com –
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1Jn 2:2
davo – pantelism.com
MichaelB: There are many verses that use "all" and "world" in relation to redemption. When looking at these verses, we must keep in mind the primary rule of hermeneutics, the "analogy of faith" - the rule that Scripture is to interpret Scripture. This means that no part of Scripture can be interpreted in such a way as to render it in conflict with what is clearly taught elsewhere in Scripture.
See Mitch, what did I tell ya:
davo: …and seeing that MichaelB doesn't like universalizing "all" or "world" out of context, supposedly, then try this:
Jn 3:16-17 For God so loved Israel that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever of Israel believes in Him should not perish in the Parousia but find life unto/into the age. For God did not send His Son into Israel to condemn Israel, but that Israel through Him might be delivered.
Now read Jn 1:10-12 in this light – it's not discounting the "wider world" but it certainly gives credence to the context.
davo – pantelism.com –
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1Jn 2:2
davo – pantelism.com
Davo writes:
Jn 3:16-17 For God so loved Israel that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever of Israel believes in Him should not perish in the Parousia but find life unto/into the age. For God did not send His Son into Israel to condemn Israel, but that Israel through Him might be delivered.
Davo - who of this group that you call "Israel" was going to receive this "life into the age"? And how were they determined? Was it chosen ahead of time who they were? If it was are you saying that Jesus died for them all but only saved some?
John 3
7You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit."
John 10
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd. 26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. 28I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand.
And how can "everlasting life" which you have conveniently change to "life into the age" mean that if "everlasting life" is something that they didn't receive until the "age to come"?
Luke 18
30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."
Also - if eternal life was part of the inheritance...
Matthew 19
29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
And dead guys were promised the same inheritance but "eternal life" really only means physically "living into the age" are you saying these guys didn't receive the same eternal inheritance?
Hebrews 9
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance.
Hebrews 11
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance....16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them...39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
Lastly,
Davo constantly quotes:
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1Jn 2:2
If Jesus was a propitiation for sin of all men that ever lived, how could somone die in their sins? Was his blood not a good enough "propitiation"?
John 8
23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am the one I claim to be, you will indeed die in your sins."
Davo - is there law in the New Covenant?
What is it?
"The cow jumped over the moon" - oops sorry, I somehow forgot the context and changed subjects.
Your answer IS:
"love thy neighbour"
davo – pantelism.com
Davo writes:
Your answer IS:"love thy neighbour"
OK - now we are getting somewhere. Davo admits that there is law in the New Covenant.
If you don't love your neighbor and believe in him what are you?
1 John 2
7Dear friends, I am not writing you a new command but an old one, which you have had since the beginning. This old command is the message you have heard. 8Yet I am writing you a new command; its truth is seen in him and you, because the darkness is passing and the true light is already shining. 9Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates his brother is still in the darkness. 10Whoever loves his brother lives in the light, and there is nothing in him to make him stumble. 11But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him.
You are still in darkness.
1 John 3
14We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death. 15Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life in him. 23And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us. 24Those who obey his commands live in him, and he in them. And this is how we know that he lives in us: We know it by the Spirit he gave us.
You remain in death. You are still a "murderer"
Mitch, this is what didn't print properly:
antiquity perpetuity
davo
davo – pantelism.com
We'll try one last time :)
antiquity -- = ETERNAL = -- perpetuity
davo – pantelism.com
In his attempts to rebut Virgil's position on the comprehensive nature of Christ's atonement, MichaelB made the statement, "So much for your 'free will' theory Virgil." Let's call this what it is: arrogance! Apparently, MichaelB believes that he has dismantled in a few short prooftexts what many fine scholars have argued in multiplied volumes. Belief in the free will of mankind is hardly Virgil's theory... that's absurd. A great many learned, intelligent people believe that God has created us to be volitional beings. If all proponents of Calvinism were this asinine, it would hardly have gained such a place of respect in theological circles. It seems some folks can't remember that we are recognized as Christians by our love for each other.
This is not an isolated event, either. In the responses to Sam Frost's article on Preterism and Universalism MichaelB made the statement, "We must view all scriptures regarding the atonement in the Calvinistic manner or else contradictions will be found in the bible and Christianity would be compromised." I took exception to his arrogance there and he softened his position somewhat. I gave him the benefit of the doubt. He continues, however, to make these types of statements and I am simply calling on him to knock it off and encouraging others to do the same.
Z
"It is amazing what you can see if you just look around." - Yogi Berra
Mike B,
Your comments here have been well thought out for the most part. But alas you dont have the name "frost" or "curtis". ** wanted to add here I think sam and david curtis are cool.**
Neither have you sold books for 34.95 on neros big toe, you have no cd's, and you surely are not a pastor.
One day maybe when you achive all this , some people will listen. Unitl that day, your S.O.L. straight out of luck.
*fear and anger lead to the darkside of preterism*
Whiteboy,
I'm sorry, did I suggest that he needed a degree, a recognizable name or that he has nothing valuable to offer since he has not been published? No I most certainly did not. I'm taking exception to the arrogant tone in many of his statements. If you want to applaud that attitude go ahead, but don't offer red herrings and make this into something that I have not.
FWIW, I think his questions to universal atonement advocates (aka John Owens argument) is absolutely relevant to this discussion and deserves interaction (I did see Virgil trying to do so, BTW). His lack of charity is probably not helping that dialogue.
Z
"It is amazing what you can see if you just look around." - Yogi Berra
Thats odd, I didnt mention any names, yet people are interjecting themselves?
So,Z, no need to pop a blood vessel over this one. : )
A degree does not make a fallacious argument sound. A degree does not guarantee truth of a statment.
For example, Sam wrote, "I won’t delve into the history of universalism only to say that it did not arise within preterist circles. It is, therefore, a fallacy to associate preterism with universalism, or to conclude that preterism necessarily leads to such."
His conclusion does not follow. Whether the conclusion is true or not is another matter. The point is that it does not follow from his premise. I doubt Calvinist Preterists would agree to this reasoning coming from the other direction. "Calvinism did not arise within preterist circles. It is, therefore, a fallacy to associate preterism with Calvinism."
I'll give Sam or Michael a listen. I don't need to do a background check first :)
PWB wrote:
** wanted to add here I think sam and david curtis are cool.**
Me, too :D
So well put that I wish I had said it myself : )
mg
MG - what were your answers to these questions again?
(For Universal Atonement advocates but not Universalists)
If Jesus died for all the sins of all men and unbelief is a sin then why arent all men saved?
(For Universal Atonement advocates that are Universalists)
If Jesus died for all the sins of all men then why was anyone punished at the great white throne judgment?
MB -
My concurance with Virgil is simply this - Virgil posted a hypothesis based upon Scripture, and is looking for direct responses to that hypothesis. By responses, I refer to constructive dialogue between bretheren based upon Scripture. In other words, insightful, useful dialogue.
What I'm reading from you, Michael, strikes me as either 1) doctrinal posturing, or 2) a gotcha game that becomes a battle of the proof texts.
If I misconstrue, than I beg your forgiveness. But that is how it appears to me.
My brief response to your question(s) is I don't believe that the punishment at the Great White Thone was a "forever" punishment, but rather a remedial reproof of those who did not believe. I'm limited in the amount of time I have here to respond, but Dr. Thomas Talbot, in his book "The Inescapable Love of God", does a marvelous job of explaining that God's reproof is a manifestation of grace... "he chastses those he loves" in order correct our unbelief.
I know this is short, but I'm at work and again, my time is limited. highly recommend the book, though! : )
Mitch writes:
My brief response to your question(s) is I don't believe that the punishment at the Great White Thone was a "forever" punishment, but rather a remedial reproof of those who did not believe. I'm limited in the amount of time I have here to respond, but Dr. Thomas Talbot, in his book "The Inescapable Love of God", does a marvelous job of explaining that God's reproof is a manifestation of grace... "he chastses those he loves" in order correct our unbelief
Hi Mitch, I understand what you are trying to say about chastisement, but lets take a look at where this idea comes from.
Hebrews 12
5And ye have forgotten the exhortation which speaketh unto you as unto children, My son, despise not thou the chastening of the Lord, nor faint when thou art rebuked of him: 6For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth. 7If ye endure chastening, God dealeth with you as with sons; for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not? 8But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bastards, and not sons. 9Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live? 10For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness. 11Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby.
Above we see that it ws Gods sons who were receiving chastisement.
Jude 1
4For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.
Jude tells us that there were some that changed grace into a license for immorality (not receiving chastisement)
Being a son came through faith. Therefore those without faith are not "sons".
Gal 3
26You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus
Chastisment was for "sons". But not all were sons.
John 8
34Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. 35Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever. 36So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. 37I know you are Abraham's descendants. Yet you are ready to kill me, because you have no room for my word. 38I am telling you what I have seen in the Father's presence, and you do what you have heard from your father.39"Abraham is our father," they answered. "If you were Abraham's children," said Jesus, "then you would do the things Abraham did. 40As it is, you are determined to kill me, a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God. Abraham did not do such things. 41You are doing the things your own father does." "We are not illegitimate children," they protested. "The only Father we have is God himself." 42Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love me, for I came from God and now am here. I have not come on my own; but he sent me. 43Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say. 44You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies. 45Yet because I tell the truth, you do not believe me! 46Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don't you believe me? 47He who belongs to God hears what God says. THE REASON YOU DO NOT HEAR IS THAT YOU DO NOT BELONG TO GOD."
Those who were God's Children were heirs of the inheritance / promises.
Romans 8
16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ, if indeed we share in his sufferings in order that we may also share in his glory.
Galatians tells us that there was a certain group that was illigitamate and not heirs of the inheritance.
Galatians 4
24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother.
30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son." 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.
It was those that received him who were the children of God.
John 1
12Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—
1 John differentiates between children of God and the world.
1 John 3
1How great is the love the Father has lavished on us, that we should be called children of God! And that is what we are! The reason the world does not know us is that it did not know him.
Well - anyway - I had thought about that idea of chastisement. But chastisement was for sons and the bible is clear that not all were sons / heirs etc etc. It even mentions those who were not being chastised.
Mike B.