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I've been preaching 25 years almost; I've never seen the anointing as frightening as I saw in Denver Friday night; and so when you hear me in just a little bit give blessings and cursings ... any who attack this anointing, I speak a judgment on them. -- Benny Hinn, TBN, Denver CO |
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by Virgil Vaduva There is little that is new about the debate over the extent of Christ’s atonement taking place currently among Preterists. This debate has been raging for many hundreds of years, but in light of Preterism, it is now resurfacing. Those preterists who are Calvinists continue to believe that the atonement of Christ was very specific in nature and targeted only the “elect” while the non-Calvinists believe the atonement to be unlimited in nature.
What is new about this debate, however, is the spin that Preterism puts on it. For some people, Preterism did not affect much of their understanding of theology besides eschatological timelines; but for others, their entire understanding of Christianity was shaken to its foundations. This is the nature of the variety of human perception and personality. Unfortunately, we cannot overcome it easily, if we can overcome it at all.
Because of the complex implications of an A.D. 70 parousia of Jesus, we see some other elements coming into the debate, such as Christian Universalism for example, which suggests that all humanity has been saved through Christ. I suggested something less dramatic in a previous article, making the case for a “Comprehensive Reconciliation” which was manifested through God’s presence being restored to all humanity. This is a natural evolution of what I have known to be true before I even became a preterist, namely that Jesus died for all men, not only the elect.
In a conversation I had with a Calvinist regarding this very issue, the topic of Universalism came up, so he pointed out that if Universalism was true, then “what is the point of all this?” It occurred to me, however, that the same can be said about Calvinism. If Calvinism is true, and God chooses who is and who is not saved, then what is the point to any of this? In essence, Calvinism and Universalism are in fact in the same boat. They both trample man's free will and they both provide no motivation for a believer to make a difference in the world. To a Calvinist, these elements appear nonsensical because the limited scope of atonement under the Calvinist framework prohibits exploring a greater atonement as I and others have. So under Calvinism, this discussion does not make sense, and perhaps that explains the confusion and difficulty in communication we all experience here. The Calvinist paradigm simply does not allow for atonement to be extended beyond the elect; so in order to even begin to understand the argument, we need to make an effort to understand the nature of the elect – which will help us understand the nature of atonement.
The elect as a first-century occurrence
One problem with the doctrine of the elect in my opinion, is that it does not recognize the parousia as a past event. So technically speaking, if Christ is yet to return, then the elect is, and should be, a contemporary occurrence. However, if Preterism is true – and that is the assumption under which we construct this argument – then perhaps we should go back and reconsider what we know about the group of believers called “the elect.” Let us consider several passages that may point us in the right direction:
In 1 Peter 1 we read: “Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To God's elect, strangers in the world, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia and Bithynia.”
Paul wrote in Titus 1: “Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ for the faith of God's elect and the knowledge of the truth that leads to godliness– a faith and knowledge resting on the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time, and at his appointed season he brought his word to light.”
In 2 Timothy 2:10 Paul again writes: “Therefore I endure everything for the sake of the elect, that they too may obtain the salvation that is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.”
And finally, in Romans he again writes: “What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, as it is written: “God gave them a spirit of stupor.” (Romans 11:7, 8)
As I have mentioned before, it appears that there are clear covenantal and time-related statements contained in these passages. There is little question that this group (God’s elect) were contemporaries to Paul. In fact, more specifically, they were “the remnant” which Paul referred to in Romans 11. This remnant described by Paul, was apparently a group of people chosen by God by grace. See verse 5: “So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.” To quote myself from my previous column:
Paul knows he is talking to gentiles in Rome ("I am talking to you gentiles" v.13) so he has to go into greater details in order to make gentiles understand who this “elect” group of people was comprised of. He goes on to describe Israel as a tree, out of which branches were broken off (non believing Jews), and into which other branches were grafted (believing gentiles). This my friends is what is being described as the “elect” across the New Testament. Roman Christians were part of the elect – Paul warns them: “otherwise, you also will be cut off.” (v. 22)
So then, since the word elect literally means “to pick out” or to “choose” it goes to reason that the remnant of Romans 11, at that present time, was the group called “the elect” in the New Testament. Again, to repeat what I have said before, the typological relevance here cannot be ignored since we see a picture of Israel wandering in the wilderness for forty years. The non-believing Jews were cut-off from the riches of milk and honey of the Promised Land, and specific people were elected to prepare Israel for the entrance into the Promised Land. They were in fact a sort of first fruits who served as a picture of what was to come for the whole world: “In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures.” (James 1:18)
So James’ presentation of the elect as first fruits supports this argument even further. God exercised His will and brought forth the elect, so that they would be a first fruit among His creatures. These first-century first fruit believers were elected and chosen for a specific purpose: they were to usher in the returning Christ and prepare the way for the harvester to return and reap his harvest. In fact, Preterism to me only makes sense if we keep the elect in the first-century time frame. The days of tribulation were kept short because of the elect:
Unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days will be cut short.” (Mark 13:20)
Make a note that just being part of the elect did not mean exemption from the perils of the first-century circumstances: “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect.” (Matthew 24:24)
Fortunately, Jesus was to return soon and gather them back to Himself: “And He will send forth His angels with a great trumpet and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of the sky to the other.” (Matthew 24:31)
With these time-specific statements in mind, we see several elements that cannot be ignored: the elect did exist in the first century; the elect were a remnant of Israel chosen by grace; the elect were a first fruit among believers; the elect were gathered at the Parousia.
The elect as the first fruit
For westerners, the concept of first fruits probably makes little sense. Yes, we all are told that it teaches us to be generous and give to God from our surplus, we all hear about it and we have a rough idea of what it means, but rarely do we look into the deeper meaning of first fruits, and that keeps us from gaining a deeper understanding of God’s word. When believers were told they were a kind of first fruits, this had a very deep meaning to them, and it brought to their minds things which many of us never think of today. I will give a short historical recapitulation that may help us better understand the relationship between first fruits and the first-century believers. Context in this instance is everything.
The offering of Biccurim (the first fruits) was mandated by Exodus 23:16 and Leviticus 23:16 and because of the specific counting of days required, Biccurim was not to be brought to Jerusalem before Pentecost or after the Feast of Dedication of the Temple. This restricted the offering of first fruits to a very specific time frame. There were further restrictions placed on Biccurim. For example, first fruits were not allowed to be brought in from outside Israel: “They may not bring First fruits from beyond Jordan since that is not a land flowing with milk and honey.” (Mishnah, Bikkurim, i.10) – as an exercise, compare this restriction with Paul’s description of the elect being a remnant of Israel in Romans 11.
The method by which first fruits were chosen was very unique and special. The selection of the first fruits was a special event. Edersheim is of great help in understanding this event: “The head of the family accompanied by his child would go into his field and mark off certain portions from among the most promising of the crop. For only the best might be presented to the Lord, and it was set apart before it was yet ripe, the solemn dedication being, however, afterwards renewed, when it was actually cut.” (Alfred Edersheim, The Temple, Its Ministry and Services, Hedrickson, pp. 306)
According to Mishnah, “When a man goes down to his field and sees for the first time a ripe fig or a ripe cluster of grapes or a ripe pomegranate, he binds it round with reed-grass and says, ‘Lo, these are First-fruits’” (Mishnah, Bikkurim, iii.1) This yearly event would not only set aside the first fruit, but it would also remind all Israel of what belongs to Jehovah. The marking of the first fruit would be just as much about giving to Jehovah as it would be about the understanding that ultimately the entire harvest belongs to Him.
David Curtis has done some fantastic work on the feasts of the Lord and how they point to a first-century parousia. I encourage all readers to study the feasts in detail. The feasts not only prove preterism to be true, but they offer an insight into how God works and how God related to His people. David Curtis showed how each major event in the New Testament, starting with the birth and death of Christ, and ending with His return in A.D. 70 either happened during a feast or were pointed to by one of the feasts. Therefore the purpose and the offering of first fruits between Pentecost of the dedication of the temple are highly picturesque and are helping us place the elect in a first century context.
What is obvious but still worthy to make note of, is that the first fruits are chosen based on their merits, i.e. the head of the household (with his child – which in itself is something to take note of) goes into the field and elects the first fruits. Furthermore, the first fruits are not the harvest, and the harvest is not the first fruits – this seems to be not as obvious to some folks. In fact, the first fruits were set apart from the rest of the harvest while they were still green, and they were marked as being set apart throughout the spring and summer days.
Now, as if this was not relevant enough, let’s look at the actual dedication of the first fruits, which is just as fascinating. I will again quote Edersheim: “As a family feast, the presentation of the first fruits would enter more than any other rite into family religion and family life. Not a child in Israel – at least of those who inhabited the Holy Land – could have been ignorant of all connected with this service, and that even though it had never been taken to the beautiful ‘city of the Great King,’ not gazed with marvel and awe at the Temple of Jehovah.” (Alfred Edersheim, The Temple, Its Ministry and Services, Hedrickson, pp. 306)
The dedication of the first fruit was not just a family event, but a national event. Since not every family was able to travel to Jerusalem, each of the twenty-four districts would combine their offerings together and send representatives to the temple instead. While still difficult, the trip was to be slow, and a reason of rejoicing because it was a privilege to make this pilgrimage. Remember the words of Peter encouraging the elect to steadfast because the revelation of Jesus Christ is not far: “In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various trials, so that the proof of your faith, being more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in praise and glory and honor at the revelation of Jesus Christ.” (1 Peter 1:6-7)
When the procession would get closer to Jerusalem, the leader would summon the ranks of the procession with Jeremiah 31:6, saying “Arise, and let us go up to Zion, to the Lord our God” at which the people in the group would answer with Psalm122, “I was glad when they said unto me, Let us go into the house of Jehovah.” With this in mind, the picture of the 144,000 in Revelation is inescapable: “Then I looked, and behold, the Lamb was standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred and forty-four thousand, having His name and the name of His Father written on their foreheads.” (Revelation 14:1) The first fruits, marked with the Father’s name, have finally been dedicated to Him and they have made to Zion, to the Lord: “They were purchased from among men and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb.” (Revelation14:4)
Finally, when the procession entered the gates of Jerusalem, they sang Psalm 122:2, saying “Our feet stand within they gates, O Jerusalem.” When they reached the Temple Mount, they all sang Psalm 150, “Praise ye Jehovah! Praise God in His sanctuary, Praise Him in the firmament of His power” just as those who came out of the great tribulation and the angels sang in Revelation 7 “Praise and glory and wisdom and thanks and honor and power and strength be to our God for ever and ever. Amen.” (Revelation 7:12) Another noteworthy thing is that the multitude described in Revelation 7 was holding palm branches: "they were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands". This is again, fascinating in its similarity with the fact that the dedication of first fruits was to cease at the Feast of the Dedication of the Temple, which was celebrated much as the feast of the Tabernacles without mourning and fasting, and the crowds using palm branches and singing Psalms to celebrate both the dedication of Biccurim and proclaim the restoration of the Temple to the people after being defiled by Antiochus Epiphanes. How striking and important these seemingly minor details are when later we hear the temple proclamation in Revelation 21:3 where we read: “Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people and God Himself will be among them.” (Revelation 21:3)
When the procession brought the baskets of first fruits to the High Priest, each man carrying a basket would recite Deuteronomy 26:3 “I declare this day to the LORD my God that I have entered the land which the LORD swore to our fathers to give us” after which he would set down the basked of first fruits and continue to recite the rest of the passage which is nothing but a reminder of Israel’s own setting apart from among the nations, deliverance from Egypt and the bringing into the promised land. The man would close this dedication by saying “Now behold, I have brought the first of the produce of the ground which You, O LORD have given me.” Some have pointed out to Jesus’ prayer for his disciples as evidence that His atonement was limited, however Christ’s prayer in John 17 in fact resembles the dedication of the first fruits: “Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth.” This hagiazo in verse 17 is a setting apart process, much similar to the setting apart of Biccurim; i.e. Christ is praying that the disciples were to be set apart by the truth, through the word, not just the disciples only, but those who believe in Him through their word. This is specifically a prayer for the dedication of the disciples and their followers as first fruits; the Word set them apart; they were marked as first fruits, and Christ is praying that they may be kept safe and “away from the evil one” while He is no longer with them; the sanctification nature of Christ’s prayer is clear: the first of the elect were being finally set apart, in a typological sense the spring was there, hope for a plentiful harvest was at hand and the harvest would soon take place.
It is more and more evident now that the idea of first century first fruit believers has a much higher and deeper meaning than we first thought. It is also evident that a certain level of familiarity with the Biccurim was being expected by the inspired authors, which is why the first-century audience was not confused at all about the meaning and the relevance of the elect. It is likely that the audience was familiar even with the very exact numbers and percentages required to be given of each harvest, and I would not be surprised if the actual number of first century elect believers matched the percentages required for Biccurim; however this is only my speculation and it is impossible to prove such a thing.
In light of this understanding of the importance of first fruits and their dedication, it is important to return to Romans 11 where Paul discusses how the first fruits relate to the harvest. In Romans 11:16 Paul writes: “If the part of the dough offered as first fruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.” This is nothing but a follow-up of his previous thought, “For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?” This brings us back to the nature of unlimited atonement of Christ.
Atonement for the whole of the kosmos
One particular passage that came up when discussing the extent of Christ’s atonement was 1 John 2:2 where John writes: “and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world.” The stipulation here is that Jesus is the propitiation and offering to God for the whole world.
Some favoring a limited atonement position have suggested that the meaning of world (kosmos) in this instance is not a reference to “all human beings” but to “gentiles.” Someone even quoted several popular commentaries supporting this view. Others have suggested that “world” refers to the “Jews.” In light of the internal evidence and the supposed common authorship of the Gospel of John and the epistles, I would lean more towards the latter suggestion, but even then there appear to be a few insurmountable problems.
In the Romanian language, just as in Greek, we have several words which can be translated as “world.” We have “lume” which can mean “people in general” or even “everyone else in the world” but also could mean “the worldly people, worldliness” (from a Christian perspective). We also have “cosmos” which means “the entire world or universe” and lastly we have “pamint” which can mean literally “the dirt, the planet” or “the people of the planet.” In Greek, things seem to get even more complicated. The inhabited world was “oikomene,” the earth was “ghe,” and “pantes” (all) was sometimes automatically understood to mean all men. Lastly “kosmos” always meant “system, or universe” as in, all the physical creation. In comparison with these examples, English on the other hand seems to have the problem of being much more generic when it comes down to specifically defining all the aspects of some of these words.
With this in mind, it stands to reason that it would be easy for an English-speaking person to read John’s words and misunderstand them, for reasons that are complex in nature. These linguistic, cultural and historical aspects of the text should be looked at carefully. Because we are operating here in a Preterist framework, we should be consistent and true to our assumption that the kosmos, or world, was changed somehow by the return of Christ at the fall of the temple. This is in fact confirmed by John throughout his epistles.
In 1 John 2:15-16 we read (my translation) “do not be loving the system or things in the system; if anyone is loving the system, the love of the father is not in him. For all things in the system, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the showiness of life is not out of the father but out of the system.” I purposefully translated this in a more literal manner for the sake of the conversation, and also purposefully translated kosmos as system because it is evident that John’s use of the word is indicative of his view of the world as a system opposed to, or in opposition to God. Continuing in verse 17, John writes “but the system is passing away, and the lust of it. The one doing the will of God is remaining into the age.” Evidently, John’s contemporary kosmos was in the process of passing away at that time. This seems to give credence to the idea that perhaps the system which John is describing is the system of the Jewish Law, which was indeed passing away at that time. I do disagree however, because the world vs. God theme we see in John’s epistles grows out of his main point: “…and he is the propitiation for our sins, not only for ours, but for the whole of the system.” (1 John 2:2). It therefore makes no sense for John to tell his audience that Christ's propitiation was for "the whole Law" or perhaps "all Jews." Even with this controversy, taking "the whole of kosmos" to mean "gentiles in general" as our Calvinist brothers suggest is simply unacceptable for the reasons already outlined. Consequently, it is evident that John's use of kosmos in this instance is a reference to the worldly system be it governments, kingdoms, and humanity in general, a system opposed to, and separated from God.
Because of the language of the text points to the spiritual aspects of the kosmos (the lust –desire- of it), “the whole of the system” should not be necessarily perceived as including inanimate objects for example. Some extreme dispensationalists would indeed suggest that sin has corrupted even physical inanimate objects, demanding that the physical planet is consequently also corrupted by sin, which means it has to also be destroyed. Note however that John is focusing on the misses, lusts and sins of the system, and unless one can show that rocks and trees can sin, we should confidently affirm that the “whole of the system” is a reference to mankind. As a result, the passage therefore teaches that God’s victory over sin is taking the whole system of the world into a new age where: “The nations will walk by its light, and the kings of the earth will bring their glory into it.” (Revelation 21:24) Therefore the change emerging as a result of Christ’s parousia has cosmological implications: the whole of the kosmos passed away – a new heaven and a new earth (a new kosmos) is now in place, where righteousness dwells, where God’s tabernacle is and where God can dwell.
To pre-empt more accusations that I hate Calvin, I will be the first to say that Calvin’s theology is right on the mark; for a futurist that is. Calvin read the Scripture as a futurist, understood atonement as a futurist and perceived election as a futurist. His theology is therefore quite accurate from a futurist perspective, so the doctrine of the elect is hardly something Calvin should be blamed for; eschatology is another story. The surprising thing for me is that Preterists continue to adopt limited atonement and election as if nothing changed in AD 70. The truth is that everything changed!
It must be pointed out that the narrative of God’s deliverance does not start with Abraham; it rather starts with the first offender, Eve. The big picture in the redemptive story is depicting sinless mankind (all of them) before the tree of life. It is depicting the cursed mankind (all of them) “between the trees”, and at last mankind (all of them) after the tree. The nations will be healed by the leaves of the tree (Revelation 22:2); the curse will be no more (Revelation 22:3). We still see a separation between the saved and the lost, though the difference now is that we see the gates of the New Jerusalem being wide open for the whole of the kosmos to enter freely.
The story is universal; the propitiation is universal; the atonement is universal. As offensive as this may sound to a Calvinist, salvation has been made available by God to the holou tou kosmou – the whole of the kosmos. The first fruit elect believers of the first century were chosen to be saved but also to be a first fruit dedication to God, in preparation for the harvest and in acknowledgment that all things ultimately belong to Him:
“I looked, and there before me was a white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one "like a son of man" with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, "Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe." So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth, and the earth was harvested.” (Revelation 14)
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Virgil Vaduva is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com.
View Virgil Vaduva archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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Re: The Universal Atonement of Christ (Score: 0, Offtopic)
by MichaelB on Monday, September 12 @ 12:55:15 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | | Queue - Jaws theme =) |
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Re: The Universal Atonement of Christ (Score: 0, Flamebait)
by MichaelB on Monday, September 12 @ 13:12:22 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | If you an Arminian and believe in "universal atonememt" - Jesus died for all the sins of all men - but unbelief is a sin...
8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."
...then why aren't all men saved if Jesus paid for all of their sins?
If you are a Universalist and you believe in a "universal atonement" for all men and saved all men...
20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God
41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.
...then why were any men punished (whether permanently or temporarily) for their sins if they were paid for?
Both of these views in my opinion make a mockery of his blood. Limited atonement does not.
14"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me— 15just as the Father knows me and I know the Father—and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen.26but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.
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- by Virgil on Monday, September 12 @ 13:15:59 PDT
- by MichaelB on Monday, September 12 @ 21:07:57 PDT
- by Virgil on Tuesday, September 13 @ 06:33:34 PDT
- by flannery0 on Tuesday, September 13 @ 16:52:20 PDT
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Re: The Universal Atonement of Christ (Score: 2, Insighful)
by jaredcoleman (jaredcoleman@gmail.com) on Monday, September 12 @ 13:12:25 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil,
That was very, very informative. I feel that I have a much better grasp of why you believe that the 'election' was limited to the first century. This should really help me in my own studies, and it should help us to communicate better in the future. Thanks!!! |
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Re: The Universal Atonement of Christ (Score: 2, Insighful)
by Paige on Monday, September 12 @ 20:49:15 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil,
I'm in the process of gathering my thoughts on the atonement at this time as well.
The atonement as I see it now, was limited to the Old Covenant world (more specifically Old Covenant Israel and the gentile world that was "in Adam" along with her). They (OC Israel) were the ones who had transgressed the covenant and had fallen under its curses. Heb. 9:15, "For this reason He is the Mediator of the new covenant, by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions UNDER the first covenant, that those who are called may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance." I can't, at this time, see how anyone post-70 can be a transgressor of the first covenant.
I do see OC Israel as representative for us all. Had I lived at the time of the OC, I would have been a transgressor of it. With that in mind, what Christ accomplished through His atonement, brought deliverance for all that was unlimited. We have all been delivered from the first covenant. It is no longer in force, and has passed away in entirety. I don't see how one could deny that reality.
On the issue of election and first-fruits, I'm right there with you. I also think that we have to get over the notion that non-elect for a specific purpose means not loved and cared for by God. David's brothers were all rejected by God, did that necessarily mean they were destined for eternal punishment? I hope we can all agree that they weren't.
I am one who can honestly say that with the understanding of realized eschatology, my whole theological world has been MORE THAN TWEAKED. I'm seeing things with fresh eyes, and finding the story to be much greater than I ever thought it was.
I know I haven't touched on all the key points you made in your article. There is much more to be explored and fleshed out. I appreciate your endeavors to tackle the tough theological points that theologians have been hashing out for MANY years.
Paige |
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- by MichaelB on Monday, September 12 @ 21:33:26 PDT
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Re: The Universal Atonement of Christ (Score: 1)
by davecollins on Monday, September 12 @ 21:27:06 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil, You have put together a well thought out article, along with an excellent presentation. To me, the issue has to do with the "mechanics" of salvation. Election is shown throughout the Bible has God's way of bringing a people to himself. Physically demonstrated by Noah, Abraham, Moses, Israel et al. Spiritually demonstrated by all the New Covenant pre-parousia saints.The continuance of the same mode of mechanics,namely; chosen, called, justified, sanctified, glorified, would seem highly probable to me,given my understanding of the heart of man in general. The return of Christ fulfilled a specific promise made to that generation in establishing the everlasting kingdom, but I really don't see the need to change the way salvation was given or received. The difference would be occupying and enjoying the kingdom vs. watching and waiting.
Personally, The day that I received salvation, Jesus was the farthest thing from my mind.The dominant emotions were misery, hopelessness,self-pity etc.. and then Jesus showed up and persuaded me that " God demonstrated His love towards me by sending Christ to die for my sins" and that He would never leave or forsake me". My responding to His call in faith proved that He had chosen me to follow Him.He delivered me from a very dark place into the kingdom of His dear Son.
When I say that God is sovereign in salvation, I am speaking of the plan AND the specific sinner being called into a saving relationship with His Creator.God's purposes are paramount, not our ability to understand His ways. We know all His ways are perfect.
The info on the first fruits was very interesting.The idea of the first fruits being picked due to their merit seems to ignore the fact that our only righteousness is Christ, and that not many noble were called. Grace produces merit, but merit is not a precursor for receiving grace.
I have been a staunch Calvinist, as I was a staunch futurist.. so I am always willing to be taught and receive the truth in spite of my dogmatic preconceptions. Thanks for an excellent article.Your Calvinistic friend, Dave |
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- by Virgil on Tuesday, September 13 @ 06:00:17 PDT
- by davecollins on Tuesday, September 13 @ 08:36:22 PDT
- by Virgil on Tuesday, September 13 @ 08:44:41 PDT
- by davecollins on Tuesday, September 13 @ 11:26:14 PDT
- by Virgil on Tuesday, September 13 @ 16:13:38 PDT
- by MichaelB on Wednesday, September 14 @ 23:45:32 PDT
- by Terry on Thursday, September 15 @ 09:54:42 PDT
- by Virgil on Thursday, September 15 @ 11:21:30 PDT
Re: The Universal Atonement of Christ (Score: 1)
by Parker on Monday, September 12 @ 21:53:43 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil,
To say that the faith is "catholic" means that the faith is offered to all peoples. It is universal in that sense. We might even say it is "comprehensive" in that context.
Next, while it is true that Calvinists can provide no actual motivation for doing anything (everything is automatic to the elect in Calvinism), Calvinists cover such obvious deficiencies by insisting that *the elect do good works.* Therefore, a lazy congregant of a Reformed church will be told that he better get moving or he might not be among the Elect at all. Such a fear-based threat provides plenty of motivation for godly action, even though specific acts of obedience or disobedience unto God have no intrinsic merit or demerit in the Calvinist scheme anyway. As you can see, the Reformed point of view on human behavior involves a complete denial of the concept of morality as it is known within human experience (i.e., intrinsically good or evil acts that may please or displease God and which merit rewards and punishments justly deserved).
Next, I think it is high time that preterism be consistent and embrace its ultimate conclusion that both god and the atonement were a first-century occurrence. Let's be consistent, folks. Really consistent. Since common forms of preterism among protestants have failed to accept continuity between the pre- and post-AD 70 era, it's time to insist on a fully biblical preterism within that cessationist rubric: namely, both God and the atonement were a pre-AD 70 occurrence. I'd be happy to list dozens of passages to prove this using the same argument Virgil used to limit "the elect" to a first century occurrence. There are clear covenantal and time-related statements contained in the New Testament by which we may conclude that both god and the atonement were a first-century occurrence. The surprising thing for me is that Preterists continue to adopt both the ancient Hebrew god and that generation's atonement as if nothing changed in AD 70. The New Testament story and experience was for "that generation."
On 1 John 2:2, it makes perfect sense that John is saying that Christ propitiated "not only our sins" (the Jews) but also those of "the whole world" (Jews and gentiles alike--all peoples). This new experience of gentile inclusion dominates the entire New Testament after Peter and Paul receive revelation that the gentiles could now come into Abraham's family through faith in Christ. This notion of catholicity dominates the AD 30-70 era. |
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Virgil Commits Fallacy of "Hasty Generalization" (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Monday, September 12 @ 22:48:38 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil commits a "hasty generalization" by trying to make the "elect" etc. apply only to the "firstfruits" without taking into consideration all of the scripture that speak of the "elect" etc.
The NT scriptures were predominently addressed regarding the "firstfruits". No one disputes this.
But just because he addressed the "elect" who are "first fruits" does not mean that this group known as "elect" is not much larger. Again - Virgil commits the fallacy of "hasty generalization".
Hasty Generalization:
This fallacy is committed when a person draws a conclusion about a population based on a sample that is not large enough. It has the following form:
Sample S (some scriptures regarding the elect), which is too small, is taken from population P (all scriptures regarding the elect)
Conclusion C (only the firstfruits are the elect) is drawn about Population P (all scriptures regarding the elect)based on S(some scriptures regarding the elect)
Romans 9 (ELECT BEFORE 1ST CENTURY)
11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."
16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.
Romans 11 (FOREKNEW BEFORE 1ST CENTURY)
2God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3"Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal."
Hebrews 9, 11 (CALLED BEFORE 1ST CENTURY)
15For this reason Christ is the mediator of a new covenant, that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance—now that he has died as a ransom to set them free from the sins committed under the first covenant.
13All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. 16Instead, they were longing for a better country—a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared a city for them 39These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. 40God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.
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- by Kyle Peterson on Tuesday, September 13 @ 07:53:39 PDT
- by Virgil on Tuesday, September 13 @ 08:06:03 PDT
- by Jer on Tuesday, September 13 @ 12:46:29 PDT
- by MichaelB on Tuesday, September 13 @ 19:49:37 PDT
- by Virgil on Tuesday, September 13 @ 19:57:02 PDT
- by Jer on Wednesday, September 14 @ 05:59:41 PDT
- by MichaelB on Wednesday, September 14 @ 18:14:48 PDT
Re: The Universal Atonement of Christ (Score: 1)
by brad_religion on Tuesday, September 13 @ 07:38:48 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil, you make some excellent points. I am on the fence regarding "election" and "universalism", because both are so close. The only major difference is those who believe in election believe God will only save SOME men based upon God's unconditional election (which means that nothing a man does, believes or says changes their election) and universalism which says basically the same thing, but in respect to it applying to all men (since NOBODY "deserves" salvation). The issue for me is the salvific power of Christ's atonement. I believe that is center for me. If scripture proves beyond any doubt to me that Jesus died for ONLY the "elect" and not everyone, then that would mean only the "elect" could be saved, since Jesus succeeded in his mission. I don't think a single person knows full well what Christ's "mission" was. It depends on their preconceptions. However, if scripture proves Jesus died for ALL men, not just the "elect", then all men will be saved. The issue of atonement being successful is that every single person who Jesus died for is who will be saved. So, that is where I draw the line. If Jesus could not or would not save those he came to save, that would make him an absolute failure. That is why I get so upset at Arminianism. They try to have the best of "both worlds". They will say Jesus died for all men, but not all men will be saved. Thus, Christ was a miserable failure.
I see evidence for both the election doctrine and also for the universal doctrine. Both are inherently the same, like I said, except for 1 detail. Maybe 70 AD will end up revealing this as we go forward.
I remember, a preterist once told me that even though the reformers were "right on" about the evils of catholicism and the fact a person is saved by God's grace, they were WAY OFF on their eschatology and their behaviour showed it. The answer is, they had just come out of the "dark ages" of catholicism, and they held on to some of those catholic teachings they couldn't let go of. Perhaps, as the church is "constantly reforming", coming out of eschatological "dark ages" will provide the same result. We know Calvin was WAY OFF with his eschatology, and like you said, his entire doctrine of election was based upon his futurist notions. It is just like any other teaching. If the foundation is false, then the building itself will be based upon something false. If the doctrine of Calvinism came out of the futurist idealogy, and the futurist ideology was completely wrong, then the doctrine of Calvinism would also be somewhat or completely wrong. I think this is why many reformed "calvinists" are so against preterism. Preterism may actually disprove their entire ideology and tradition.
There is something I notice from my "reformed" preterist brethren. Their arguments against Christian universalism could be used against their doctrine of election in almost every way. If election is true, then univeralism does NOT matter, since ALL the elect will be saved anyway. If univeralism is true, then election does NOT matter, since ALL men will be saved anyway. Do you see the reversal? Why are we arguing over this stuff?
I have heard Calvinists who claim to believe in "unconditional election" which by definition means that nothing the elect do, say or believe will change their election. That is what "unconditional means". However, some I have met who claim to follow "unconditional election" put tons of "conditions" on the "elect". One of them actually told me that even if you believe everything like they do, but don't believe in the concept of the "3 people of the trinity", you are not "elect". Even if you believe Jesus is God, that simply is NOT good enough for them. In other words, they believe that in spite of believing 99.9999% of how they believe, that 0.0001% will keep you from being "saved". That is what I call hypocrisy.
I would say universalists believe in the concept of "unconditional election", as far as nothing a person does, beli
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- by Virgil on Tuesday, September 13 @ 08:37:27 PDT
- by the_prophet_whiteboy on Tuesday, September 13 @ 15:58:56 PDT
- by Virgil on Tuesday, September 13 @ 16:29:09 PDT
- by Paige on Tuesday, September 13 @ 17:14:46 PDT
- by mitchg on Wednesday, September 14 @ 06:33:13 PDT
- by the_prophet_whiteboy on Wednesday, September 14 @ 20:24:32 PDT
- by the_prophet_whiteboy on Tuesday, September 13 @ 17:05:44 PDT
Re: The Universal Atonement of Christ (Score: 1)
by mitchg on Tuesday, September 13 @ 11:33:47 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Brother Virgil -
You never cease to impress me. Your article on Universal Atonement is a marvelous teatment of the logical conclusion that Preterism leads to. It's becoming clearer to me (via the scholarship of authors here at PP and elsewhere) that the ramifications of fulfillment eschatology (my choice of verbage) are amazing. I have really begun to see God's plan for redeeming His creation in it's breadth and scope.
The bit in your article regarding Calvinism and it's inherent futurist roots was very enlightening. (I hear Calvinists cringing as I type... my apologies, bretheren, I mean no disrespect).
Virgil, your article serves to further highlight/ parallel where Scripture has lead me over the last couple of years... Futurist, Preterist, then Universal Reconciliation-ist (?).
I believe there is a major paradym shift taking place in the body of Christ, an many levels. This article is a further example. Thanks again for your hard work. I, for one, enjoy and appreciate it.
Blessings, brother. |
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- by Virgil on Tuesday, September 13 @ 17:25:44 PDT
- by mitchg on Wednesday, September 14 @ 05:04:16 PDT
- by mitchg on Wednesday, September 14 @ 05:08:39 PDT
Re: The Universal Atonement of Christ (Score: 1)
by mitchg on Tuesday, September 13 @ 11:53:36 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Sorry for the repeats!
"There was a glitch in the system!"
(Fred Ward as astronaut Virgil Grissom in "the Right Stuff", no pun intended)
: ) |
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- by Virgil on Tuesday, September 13 @ 16:26:06 PDT
Re: The Universal Atonement of Christ (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Tuesday, September 13 @ 20:27:24 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil writes:
You are arguing against Universalism, when my column has nothing to do with it. I am more concerned with the extent of atonement.
Me too Virgil, so what are the answers to my questions.
(For Universal Atonement advocates but not Universalists)
If Jesus died for all the sins of all men and unbelief is a sin then why arent all men saved?
(For Universal Atonement advocates that are Universalists)
If Jesus died for all the sins of all men then why was anyone punished at the great white throne judgment? |
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- by Virgil on Wednesday, September 14 @ 05:55:29 PDT
- by MichaelB on Wednesday, September 14 @ 08:54:37 PDT
- by Virgil on Wednesday, September 14 @ 19:05:24 PDT
- by MichaelB on Wednesday, September 14 @ 20:12:11 PDT
- by Virgil on Wednesday, September 14 @ 20:16:34 PDT
- by MichaelB on Wednesday, September 14 @ 23:55:34 PDT
- by Virgil on Thursday, September 15 @ 05:47:36 PDT
- by MichaelB on Thursday, September 15 @ 10:09:32 PDT
- by Jer on Thursday, September 15 @ 10:34:53 PDT
- by Virgil on Thursday, September 15 @ 11:17:01 PDT
- by Jer on Thursday, September 15 @ 11:29:26 PDT
- by Jer on Thursday, September 15 @ 07:21:12 PDT
- by MichaelB on Thursday, September 15 @ 09:31:40 PDT
- by Jer on Thursday, September 15 @ 12:41:50 PDT
- by mitchg on Thursday, September 15 @ 05:52:03 PDT
- by MichaelB on Thursday, September 15 @ 10:12:56 PDT
- by mitchg on Thursday, September 15 @ 10:20:48 PDT
Re: The Universal Atonement of Christ (Score: 1)
by davo on Tuesday, September 13 @ 22:58:39 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) |
Virgil: In a conversation I had with a Calvinist regarding this very issue, the topic of Universalism came up, so he pointed out that if Universalism was true, then “what is the point of all this?” It occurred to me, however, that the same can be said about Calvinism. If Calvinism is true, and God chooses who is and who is not saved, then what is the point to any of this? In essence, Calvinism and Universalism are in fact in the same boat.
Yes, and in essence much of what is extrapolated accordingly is in that same boat because what is assumed is that that boat of salvation is a ferry to Heaven – yet 1st century Judaism, and that which preceded it did not think in such "out of this world" terms.
Virgil: These first-century first fruit believers were elected and chosen for a specific purpose: they were to usher in the returning Christ and prepare the way for the harvester to return and reap his harvest.
And that there Virgil is the essence of "election" – PURPOSE not position. They were part of what God was doing: "As God's fellow workers we urge you not to receive God's grace in vain. 2Cor 6:1; For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building. 1Cor 3:9.
Virgil: In fact, the first fruits were set apart from the rest of the harvest while they were still green, and they were marked as being set apart throughout the spring and summer days.
Indeed. Their being set apart was not to the exclusion of the rest, but being set apart was specifically on behalf of the entire harvest.
Virgil: Continuing in verse 17, John writes “but the system is passing away, and the lust of it. The one doing the will of God is remaining into the age.” Evidently, John’s contemporary kosmos was in the process of passing away at that time. This seems to give credence to the idea that perhaps the system which John is describing is the system of the Jewish Law, which was indeed passing away at that time. I do disagree however, because the world vs. God theme we see in John’s epistles grows out of his main point: “…and he is the propitiation for our sins, not only for ours, but for the whole of the system.” (1 John 2:2). It therefore makes no sense for John to tell his audience that Christ's propitiation was for "the whole Law" or perhaps "all Jews." Even with this controversy, taking "the whole of kosmos" to mean "gentiles in general" as our Calvinist brothers suggest is simply unacceptable for the reasons already outlined.
Virgil, could it possibly be that "our sins" references the first-fruits [verse 1: "My little children"], and the "whole world" the greater harvest of all Israel – redemption being specific to Israel, yet in being redeemed such world flow beyond Israel in the reconciliation to humanity.
Jas 1:18 Of His own will He brought us forth by the word of truth, that we might be a kind of firstfruits of His creatures.
James along with John I believe would have had a fairly strong "Israel bent" – thus for John "cosmos" encompassed more than "the law" alone, but the entire OC mode of existence; and for James, the "His creatures" likewise being indicative of Israel [as per my rendition of Rom 8 that you have elsewhere]. This would fit with James' opening line: "James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad: Greetings.
Thus I can see 1Jn 2:2 as having a primary redemptive meaning encompassing all Israel [first-fruits & entire harvest] and a secondary application inclusive the wider world in that Israel's redemption brought forth the world's reconciliation [Rom 11:15].
davo – pantelism.com –
"And He Himself is the propitiation for o
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Romans 11 compared to Ephesians 2 (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Wednesday, September 14 @ 10:27:05 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Davo writes:
Israel's redemption brought forth the world's reconciliation [Rom 11:15].
Romans 11
15For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Davo - Physical Israels rejection brought forth reconciliation to the world because BY FAITH the world (those who believed) were brought into the TRUE ISRAEL.
Just like in Romans 11 where we see unbeliving Israel broken off and believing Gentiles grafted into Israel.
We see the SAME event happening in Ephesians 2 which is also about the RECONCILIATION
Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, THROUGH FAITH—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast.
11Therefore, remember that formerly you who are Gentiles by birth and called "uncircumcised" by those who call themselves "the circumcision" (that done in the body by the hands of men)— 12remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, ESCLUDED FROM CITEZENSHIP IN ISRAEL and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world. 13But now in Christ Jesus you who once were far away have been brought near THROUGH THE BLOOD OF CHRIST. 14For he himself is our peace, who has made the two one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15by abolishing in his flesh the law with its commandments and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new man out of the two, thus making peace, 16and in this one body to RECONCILE both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit. 19Consequently, you are no longer foreigners and aliens, but FELLOW CITIZENS WITH GODS PEOPLE and members of God's household,
Above we saw that he RECONCILIATION CAME THROUGH FAITH to the world that BELIEVED. They were included into the TRUE ISRAEL.
2 Corinthians 5
19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them.
If with God's reconciliation he would "not count mens sins against them" Davo...THEN WHY WERE THEY PUNISHED AT THE GREAT WHITE THRONE JUDGMENT?
2 Corinthians 5
And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God.
If the reconciliation included everyone regardless, they should not have to IMPLORE people to be RECONCILED.
2 Corinthians 5
21God made him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Davo how did the righteousness of God come...
Romans 4
13It was not through law that Abraham and his offspring received the promise that he would be heir of the world, but through the righteousness that comes by faith.
Phillipians 3
9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.
Even for the dead In Christ - the righteousness CAME BY FAITH.
Hebrews 11
7By faith Noah, when warned about things not yet seen, in holy fear built an ark to save his family. By his faith he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness that comes by faith.
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- by MichaelB on Wednesday, September 14 @ 10:34:32 PDT
- by davo on Friday, September 16 @ 02:31:10 PDT
- by MichaelB on Friday, September 16 @ 09:01:22 PDT
What was the topic again? (Score: 1)
by mitchg on Wednesday, September 14 @ 18:51:41 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Maybe it's just my lack of Scriptural savvy or something, but wasn't the topic of Virgil's article The Universal Atonement of Christ?
So far, nothing I've seen here in the responses trumps anything that Virgil has laid forth. As a matter of fact, judging from most of the posted "rebutals", the conversation seems to have drifted from atonement into salvation... or eternal life... or faith, none of which are the same thing as atonement.
Now, sure, you can segue into those topics FROM a discussion of atonement, but I sure wish more of those contributing to this discussion would stay focused on the topic at hand.
Thats not to say that a lot of contributors haven't offered nice insights, but a good number of you seem preoccupied with related topics, but not central point of discussion. Heaven knows it bears enough dialogue on it's own merits.
Just my two cents. : )
mg |
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- by MichaelB on Wednesday, September 14 @ 20:13:58 PDT
- by the_prophet_whiteboy on Wednesday, September 14 @ 20:27:03 PDT
The Universal Arrogance of MichaelB (Score: 1)
by zweiteskommen on Thursday, September 15 @ 08:15:00 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | In his attempts to rebut Virgil's position on the comprehensive nature of Christ's atonement, MichaelB made the statement, "So much for your 'free will' theory Virgil." Let's call this what it is: arrogance! Apparently, MichaelB believes that he has dismantled in a few short prooftexts what many fine scholars have argued in multiplied volumes. Belief in the free will of mankind is hardly Virgil's theory... that's absurd. A great many learned, intelligent people believe that God has created us to be volitional beings. If all proponents of Calvinism were this asinine, it would hardly have gained such a place of respect in theological circles. It seems some folks can't remember that we are recognized as Christians by our love for each other.
This is not an isolated event, either. In the responses to Sam Frost's article on Preterism and Universalism MichaelB made the statement, "We must view all scriptures regarding the atonement in the Calvinistic manner or else contradictions will be found in the bible and Christianity would be compromised." I took exception to his arrogance there and he softened his position somewhat. I gave him the benefit of the doubt. He continues, however, to make these types of statements and I am simply calling on him to knock it off and encouraging others to do the same.
Z |
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- by Virgil on Thursday, September 15 @ 08:24:28 PDT
- by mitchg on Thursday, September 15 @ 08:39:00 PDT
- by MichaelB on Thursday, September 15 @ 09:37:59 PDT
- by MichaelB on Thursday, September 15 @ 09:41:32 PDT
- by mitchg on Thursday, September 15 @ 10:19:16 PDT
- by vento on Thursday, September 15 @ 13:21:53 PDT
- by Virgil on Thursday, September 15 @ 13:30:58 PDT
- by vento on Friday, September 16 @ 14:30:47 PDT
- by Virgil on Friday, September 16 @ 15:00:33 PDT
- by Jer on Thursday, September 15 @ 13:36:24 PDT
- by MichaelB on Thursday, September 15 @ 14:16:55 PDT
- by Virgil on Thursday, September 15 @ 16:43:52 PDT
- by MichaelB on Thursday, September 15 @ 22:33:11 PDT
- by davo on Saturday, September 17 @ 12:21:20 PDT
- by davecollins on Monday, September 19 @ 09:45:03 PDT
- by davo on Tuesday, September 20 @ 01:12:45 PDT
- by MichaelB on Thursday, September 15 @ 14:08:19 PDT
- by mitchg on Thursday, September 15 @ 19:20:26 PDT
- by MichaelB on Thursday, September 15 @ 22:18:26 PDT
- by mitchg on Friday, September 16 @ 05:10:53 PDT
- by MichaelB on Friday, September 16 @ 09:05:19 PDT
- by mitchg on Friday, September 16 @ 09:47:43 PDT
- by MichaelB on Friday, September 16 @ 10:54:44 PDT
- by mitchg on Friday, September 16 @ 12:09:56 PDT
- by MichaelB on Friday, September 16 @ 13:32:30 PDT
- by mitchg on Friday, September 16 @ 13:48:14 PDT
- by the_prophet_whiteboy on Thursday, September 15 @ 13:38:11 PDT
- by Jer on Thursday, September 15 @ 14:24:11 PDT
- by zweiteskommen on Thursday, September 15 @ 17:01:16 PDT
- by the_prophet_whiteboy on Thursday, September 15 @ 18:29:02 PDT
Re: The Universal Arrogance of MichaelB (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Friday, September 16 @ 13:55:48 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Mitch wrote:
Salvation/eternal life only benefits those who believe.
Mitch what is your definition of salvation/eternal life?
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Where's David Curtis' Article??? (Score: 1)
by Roderick on Saturday, September 17 @ 05:41:18 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Interesting,
Why was David Curtis' excellent article addressing universalism removed from the front page? It was more current than even Sam Frost's article yet you removed it from the front page???
Curtis' article speaks directly to the Arminian tendency of Universalism. Is that why you removed it?
At any rate, people can access David Curtis' article ==> HERE or at a website I'm not allowed to mention here ;-) |
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- by Virgil on Saturday, September 17 @ 05:57:13 PDT
Re: The Universal Atonement of Christ (Score: 1)
by davo on Sunday, September 18 @ 09:12:11 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) |
MichaelB: OK - now we are getting somewhere. Davo admits that there is law in the New Covenant.
And THAT law is LOVE – love God by loving others.
MichaelB: If you don't love your neighbor and believe in him what are you?
A hypocrite.
MichaelB: You are still in darkness.
The darkness of the OC that was passing still had a grip on some who fell under its pharisaic hypocrisy of saying with the mouth but not living its reality.
MichaelB: You remain in death. You are still a "murderer"
Actions speak louder than words – thus hatred in the heart equates to murder, and so was and is not befitting those who were called to minister the gospel of "life in Christ" when or if in fact they were ministering death through the law i.e., casting aspersions [judging] each other. The passages 1Jn 2:7-11; 3:14-15, 23-24 are somewhat rhetorical in that John in writing to believers was showing the logical fallacy of claiming to be one thing – "light", yet in practice stumbling around in "darkness".
MichaelB: Davo writes:
Jn 3:16-17 For God so loved Israel that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever of Israel believes in Him should not perish in the Parousia but find life unto/into the age. For God did not send His Son into Israel to condemn Israel, but that Israel through Him might be delivered.
Davo - who of this group that you call "Israel" was going to receive this "life into the age"?
"whoever of Israel believes in Him should not perish" – need you ask?
MichaelB: …are you saying that Jesus died for them all but only saved some?
Of course Jesus died for all – Virgil's main contention of this article that God's atonement is 100% comprehensive is 100% correct. The atonement brought redemption for Israel and thus reconciliation for the world. Those who grasp this reality in Christ are "saved to serve" as priests of God. Believers are priests – priests don't serve priests, they serve the people i.e., the world – thy neighbour.
MichaelB: And how can "everlasting life" which you have conveniently change to "life into the age" mean that if "everlasting life" is something that they didn't receive until the "age to come"?
Luke 18
30will fail to receive many times as much in this age and, in the age to come, eternal life."
Glad you asked. What they were receiving or "inheriting" [life] "in part" [1Cor 13:9] in that age would in the consummation of the ages be received "to the full" [Jn 10:10]. What they were receiving as a down payment was the guarantee of future fulfilment [2Cor 1:22; 5:5; Eph 1:14]. That's how "life into the age" was for the first century believers.
MichaelB: Also - if eternal life was part of the inheritance...
And dead guys were promised the same inheritance but "eternal life" really only means physically "living into the age" are you saying these guys didn't receive the same eternal inheritance?
It doesn't "only mean" surviving into the coming age [as many we know didn't], but that WAS the tangible reality for many, yet the covenantal aspect of "eternal life" was the qualitative reality of "knowing" life with God – hence Jn 17:3, irrespective of the grave or not.
MichaelB: Davo constantly quotes:
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1Jn 2:2
If Jesus was a propitiation for sin of all men that ever lived, how could somone die in their sins? Was his blood not a good enough "propitiation"?
John 8
23But he continued, "You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world. 24I told yo
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- by MichaelB on Monday, September 19 @ 10:57:09 PDT
- by the_prophet_whiteboy on Monday, September 19 @ 15:53:47 PDT
- by davo on Monday, September 19 @ 20:57:44 PDT
- by MichaelB on Monday, September 19 @ 23:48:33 PDT
- by davo on Tuesday, September 20 @ 01:30:21 PDT
- by MichaelB on Tuesday, September 20 @ 08:29:44 PDT
- by the_prophet_whiteboy on Tuesday, September 20 @ 09:09:37 PDT
- by Jer on Tuesday, September 20 @ 12:23:29 PDT
- by Paige on Tuesday, September 20 @ 12:50:12 PDT
- by MichaelB on Tuesday, September 20 @ 13:37:08 PDT
- by Jer on Tuesday, September 20 @ 14:40:45 PDT
- by the_prophet_whiteboy on Tuesday, September 20 @ 16:05:34 PDT
- by MichaelB on Tuesday, September 20 @ 16:57:41 PDT
- by Jer on Tuesday, September 20 @ 17:25:33 PDT
- by davo on Wednesday, September 21 @ 01:58:00 PDT
- by Jer on Wednesday, September 21 @ 05:38:40 PDT
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