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"Yet the apostle John describes a reality that has only recently come into focus: global banking, laser scanning, and the universal bar code. . .Again, what better descriptive term could John have found in the ancient world than "the mark," which would enable every citizen to buy or sell who had it?" -- Tal Brooke |
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by Virgil Vaduva Several days ago I was speaking with a friend from Romania concerning Preterism. He was quite interested in the topic until I mentioned that mankind has been restored to God’s presence, and that is where we are at this very moment. Then he mentioned that he was a Calvinist and said “Preterism is not possible because of the evidence of total depravity of mankind we see everywhere we look around us today.”
This is not the first time Calvinism proved to be a roadblock to Preterist theology in my own conversations with others. I often run across people who use Calvinism as an excuse to refuse to accept the truth of Preterism. The excuse, as it was outlined above by my good friend, is generally based on the observation that total depravity is readily manifested in the world around us. Mankind supposedly refuses to escape the “slavery of Satan” and is simply unable to do anything good at all, especially apart from God.
As early as yesterday, the beliefnet.com editor Deborah Caldwell discussed the idea that God perhaps sent the recent hurricane Katrina to destroy New Orleans because of the depravity of the city, or perhaps because of United States’ refusal to support the Israeli settlers in the West Bank. Others suggested that the hurricane is just another manifestation of the “wages of sin” probably resulting in global warming, and the “pain” experienced by the earth because of the sin upon it. Whether or not this is true, a majority of Christians seem to think that there is an apocalyptic story unfolding and the destruction left by Katrina is part of the plan.

President Bush inspects the city of New Orleans |
The problem raised by this kind of thinking is that we, who are not affected by the destruction of the hurricane are left with a dilemma. If we help the victims and help rebuild New Orleans for example, we are in fact working against the will of God, if His will is indeed to make people suffer or punish them for whatever reason. And if this is a just punishment from God for the wages of humanity’s sin, how is it that only a few hundred people appear to be dead? Did God screw up again and failed to kill all the inhabitants of New Orleans, or only a few hundred of them were in fact depraved enough to get death as punishment?
Furthermore, in light of the Calvinistic idea that man can do no good whatsoever apart from God, I am trying to understand how all the non-believers are suddenly offering to send help and aide to Louisiana. Even Hugo Chavez, the thug running the country of Venezuela offered fuel, oil and food to the displaced victims of the hurricane. I also e-mailed the CEO of my place of employment and suggested a company-wide drive to raise funds and perhaps partner-up with the Red Cross or another charity in order to provide help. It seems like it happened many times in the past, the heathen, non-Calvinistic United States of America will pull together again and help those hit by the disaster. The President is flying over the area assessing the damage and planning out how to provide help for the area. While I strongly disagree with the federal government providing welfare and financial aid to individual citizens, I am struggling to see how a secular, anti-Christian government that many Christians despise can actually move so quickly to help people in need.
Yet again, my personal experience with sharing Preterist theology hits the Calvinistic road-block, and yet again, we see how catastrophic events bring the good out of most people, showing that we truly are in God’s presence. Fatalistic futurism thrives on catastrophes, hurricanes and wars. Calvinism certainly fuels the fire of futurism as far as I am concerned, and why would it not? One does not have to be a rocket scientists to see that total depravity can go hand in hand with empirical observations of the world around us.
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Virgil Vaduva is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com.
View Virgil Vaduva archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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Re: Calvinism Strikes Again (Score: 2, Funny)
by Duncan on Wednesday, August 31 @ 12:44:13 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Hey Virgil,
Was life getting too sedentary for you? You know you are waving a red flag in front of the Calvinist bulls. All I can say is, good for you! Personally I agree with you. I am not a Calvanist. I believe that God is sovereign, but one has to be careful of a wooden view of sovereignty. Which does lead to a form of fatalism. I believe that God's sovereignty incorporates man's free will. Anyway you are right, new wine (ie preterism) does not go well with old wineskins (ie Calvinism). Well, I would love to stay and chat but I have to run. I hear the sound of the approaching hoof-beats!
God bless and have fun,
Duncan |
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Re: Calvinism Strikes Again (Score: 0, Offtopic)
by Erick on Wednesday, August 31 @ 13:31:11 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | | [sigh] |
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Re: Universalism Strikes Again (Score: 0, Flamebait)
by Roderick on Wednesday, August 31 @ 13:35:12 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | "So I guess this will end up as a discussion about universalism again!!"
Has THAT discussion ever ended? Seems like that is all this site is about anymore...Sheesh |
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- by PreteristAD70 on Wednesday, August 31 @ 13:38:51 PDT
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Re: Virgil Off Base Again (Score: 2, Insighful)
by KurtF on Wednesday, August 31 @ 13:41:11 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | As atheists need logic and other Christian worldview concepts to even have an intellectual platform to defend themselves, so does Virgil need "Calvinists" like Gary DeMar and Sam Frost to give him a sense of preterism within a comprehensive workable Christian worldview.
Maybe one day Virgil will become properly aware of his adopted country's past and come to understand that he would not have even had a country like ours to flee to if not for the "Presbyterian Parson's Rebellion" (read "Calvinism" for those in Rio Linda) from 1775-1783.
Preterism needs the likes of "Calvinism" to address the many areas of life that non-"Calvinists" are clueless about, including how civil government should be run.
Let the arrows commence! :) |
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Re: Calvinism Strikes Again (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Wednesday, August 31 @ 14:47:23 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil wrote:
This is not the first time Calvinism proved to be a roadblock to Preterist theology in my own conversations with others.
First of all Virgil: total depravity (also known as Total Inability) doctrine has to do with how we come to God - not how evil men are. So this person you spoke with doesn't even understand Total Depravity. In other words - no Arminian would disagree that men are evil and that there is evil in the world.
Secondly: Virgil - then how did any Calvinist EVER become Preterists?
Thirdly: why is Preterism so wide-spread in in Reformed theology? See David Green's website for example - it is even one of the questions that a person asked.
Fourthly: why is it that the Reformed Church (creedalists) are taking such a stand against Preterism? It is because members keep leaving them Virgil because they are becoming Preterists. After all - it is the reformed group whos "motto" is "Sola Scriptura" which is why people are seeing Preterism.
Fifthly: you seem to have no concept of logical arguments Virgil.
Here are just a couple of the many illogical arguments you are using.
1. Description of Hasty Generalization
This fallacy is committed when a person draws a conclusion about a population based on a sample that is not large enough. It has the following form:
Sample S (the few Calvinists Virgil has spoken with), which is too small, is taken from population P (All Cavinists).
Conclusion C is drawn about Population P based on S.
2. Description of Questionable Cause
This fallacy has the following general form:
A (Calvinism) and B (Futurism) are associated on a regular basis.
Therefore A is the cause of B.
The general idea behind this fallacy is that it is an error in reasoning to conclude that one thing causes another simply because the two are associated on a regular basis. More formally, this fallacy is committed when it is concluded that A is the cause of B simply because they are associated on a regular basis. The error being made is that a causal conclusion is being drawn from inadequate evidence
Sixthly: The so-called roadblock has nothing to do with total depravity - it has to do with any futurist view that doesn't get that the world was not going to be made sinless - it was us that were going to be clothed with the sinless one in the covenant.
Virgil said:
“Preterism is not possible because of the evidence of total depravity of mankind we see everywhere we look around us today.”
Virgil is this any different than the Arminian that says...
“Preterism is not possible because of the evidence of the sin of mankind we see everywhere we look around us today.”
Every mainstream futurist doctrine - Arminian or Calvinistic etc. etc. has a doctrine of depravity. Whether it is "total" or 99% or whatever - they are still gonna point to sin in the world unless you explain it to them.
Lastly - you and Sam were talking about the "residual affects if sin" on your taped discussion on your website and you said you agreed with him.
Maybe the real "road block" is that you are not a good communicator.
Mike Bennett |
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- by jaredcoleman on Wednesday, August 31 @ 15:43:38 PDT
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Re: Calvinism Strikes Again (Score: 1)
by KurtF on Wednesday, August 31 @ 17:55:53 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | "The President is flying over the area assessing the damage and planning out how to provide help for the area. While I strongly disagree with the federal government providing welfare and financial aid to individual citizens, I am struggling to see how a secular, anti-Christian government that many Christians despise can actually move so quickly to help people in need.
Move so quickly? Are you joking?
Virgil, this has been a disaster waiting to happen for DECADES! Where was the disaster plan for a direct, cat 5 hit on New Orleans? This should have been planned for YEARS ago.
Even more mortifying, what has happened to our civil defense program in the US in event of a nuclear attack? FEMA has NOTHING for this.
This stuff isn't rocket science. Ironically, of all things that the Feds have their sticky hands into, you would think they would have a disaster plan in place. Russia has it all over our hapless Feds in this area. |
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- by Virgil on Wednesday, August 31 @ 18:13:25 PDT
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catastrophe as judgement? (Score: 1)
by HiPo on Wednesday, August 31 @ 23:46:12 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virg wrote:
And if this is a just punishment from God for the wages of humanity’s sin, how is it that only a few hundred people appear to be dead? Did God screw up again and failed to kill all the inhabitants of New Orleans, or only a few hundred of them were in fact depraved enough to get death as punishment?
HiPo responds:
In the 1st 5 verses of Lk 13, Jesus poses a similar question about 2 then-current events. Frequently, I hear people citing this passage to indicate that God does not use these events as judgements.
I think it's worth noting, however, that Jesus didn't come right out and say whether or not either of these calamities was a judgement. He said that we shouldn't conclude that those who died there were *worse* than us. In fact, when he says "unless you repent, you will all *likewise* perish," he seems to be implying (IMHO) that at least the latter event was a judgement.
As I see it, the principle seems to be that (generally speaking) we don't have enough info to decisively say whether or not a particular event is a judgement for each individual caught therein.
Now, if the tower of Siloam fell because it had been poorly constructed, and the negligent builder was among those taken out, then the case might start to look a little better for that event being a judgement on the builder.
Of course, even in the case of the negligent builder flattened by his own tower, I can't say that I (apart from Christ) am any better than he is.
So, in a somewhat "Noe-ish" way, I look at the happenings in Lousyana as possibly being a specific judgement from God.
Your brother in Christ,
Harvey
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- by Virgil on Thursday, September 01 @ 05:47:52 PDT
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Re: Calvinism Strikes Again (Score: 1)
by HiPo on Thursday, September 01 @ 08:36:58 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Part of what I was after with that comment was to point out that an evidentialist philosphy isn't very useful in a discussion such as this one. And (generally speaking) Calvinism tends to be rather presuppositional (as opposed to evidentialist) in its logic.
By contrast, most of the dispies out there that habitually point to this sort of thing crowing that "the end is near" are coming from an Arminian world view (which generally tends to be more evidentialist in its thinking), and not a Calvinistic one, John MacArthur notwithstanding.
Part of why this philosophical difference sticks out to me is that I (as the son of a research scientist) grew up with a very strong evidentialist philosphy, which significantly impacted my studies of creation, but which has since been challenged by studying first Calvinism, and later full preterism.
Your philosophical brother in Christ,
Harvey
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Re: Calvinism Strikes Again (Score: 1)
by KurtF on Thursday, September 01 @ 09:05:08 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | "I am trying to understand how all the non-believers are suddenly offering to send help and aide to Louisiana. Even Hugo Chavez, the thug running the country of Venezuela offered fuel, oil and food to the displaced victims of the hurricane."
Motivations are EVERYTHING.
Do you know their motivations, Virgil? Is it for:
- praise from others?
- the power trip?
- looking good before other men?
- monetary gain? (Oh, yes. "Contribute money to me and I'll send it down to help others!" In reality, the money never gets there or is given to those who don't need it down there.)
If you understand this, then you would have your answer. |
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- by Virgil on Thursday, September 01 @ 10:06:37 PDT
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Re: Calvinism Strikes Again (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Thursday, September 01 @ 11:29:40 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil - why is Partial Preterism so much more prevelant in Reformed Theology and Dispensationalism is so much more prevelant in Arminian theology?
I have seen many many more Partial Preterists - take the leap into Preterism (all the way)then I have seen Dispensationalists.
Seems to me the "reformed" (Partial Prets) are ripe for the picking because their hermanuetic is inconsistent and it is easier to point out.
Where the Dispensationalist has a horrible hermaneutic (but at least they are consistantly horrible) =)
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- by Virgil on Thursday, September 01 @ 11:41:11 PDT
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- by PreteristAD70 on Friday, September 02 @ 09:14:59 PDT
- by MichaelB on Friday, September 02 @ 09:53:32 PDT
- by Ed on Saturday, September 03 @ 08:01:35 PDT
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- by MichaelB on Sunday, September 04 @ 23:24:37 PDT
Re: Calvinism Strikes Again (Score: 1)
by amie on Friday, September 02 @ 08:32:35 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) |
I only became aware of "Arminianism" and "Calvinism" within a year - maybe two.
So far I understand "total depravity" to be the belief that mankind's nature is sinful, therefore cannot go to God on its own, therefore God must choose for them.
This sounds to me like the difference between Arminians (sp) and Calvinists is that Calvinists believe that mankind cannot repent (of his own will) and Arminians (sp) believe that mankind can repent (of his own will). Is that correct?
As well, I am understanding "total depravity" to advocate that mankind cannot do good "apart from God". "Apart from God" meaning that God has not chosen them.
I understand that Calvinists believe that evidence that God has chosen a person is that the person agrees with Calvinism. Are these things also correct?
I am not Arminian (sp) or a Calvinist.
If the above things are correct, I am struggling to find the point of Virgil's article and am interested in understanding. If the above definitions are correct, then a Calvinist embracing Preterism believe that God is making them embrace it, right? How is that a roadblock?
I do understand Virgil's point in that it seems that mankind is doing good, by helping the folks in trouble over there, and many of them are secular. And, I laughed out loud at the comment about why the buildings were taken out and so many people were missed! (Too funny!)
Amie
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- by PreteristAD70 on Friday, September 02 @ 09:39:29 PDT
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- by amie on Friday, September 02 @ 15:25:25 PDT
- by PreteristAD70 on Friday, September 02 @ 16:09:20 PDT
Where are the reformed Columnist??? (Score: 1)
by the_prophet_whiteboy on Friday, September 02 @ 16:12:21 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) |
First off, the following is not a attack on Virgil, but what a lot of columnist have done to push him on a pedstal.
I have been keeping a eye on this article and its repsonses. A lot of good points have been made by different partys. But the point is , where are the Sam Frost and other reformers ?
This is a noticeable trend that those "who suposedly" dont agree with Universalism etc . They dont say a single word. Here we have a anti-calvinist issue and the columnist are silent.
I know I know, books ,cd's and speaking engagements.
Gentleman, pull your pants up and say what you believe. If you present yourselfs as leaders, then start leading. If not, dont hang titles over your head that you are SCARED to defend.
Ill give the Universalist credit, those guys are afraid to express their opinion, no matter if it may hurt their book sales or a possible connection.
Most of the columnist at this site reminds me of family members at grandads deathbed. Everyone is kissing butt, and wont really admit to what they believe ,because if they do, Grandpa might cut them off from his will.
This comment may get me banned, if so its been great being here. I wish more would not be afraid to defend their postion.
Waiting for answers,
Whitey |
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- by the_prophet_whiteboy on Friday, September 02 @ 16:14:16 PDT
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