 |
|
|
I was shocked when I found out who the biggest failure in the Bible actually is…The biggest one in the whole Bible is God…I mean, He lost His top-ranking, most anointed angel; the first man He ever created; the first woman He ever created; the whole earth and all the fullness therein; a third of the angels, at least - that's a big loss, man….
-- Kenneth Copeland, Praise-a-thon on Praise The Lord, April 1988
|
|
| |
News: What Happened to the Gifts of the Spirit at the Parousia?
Posted on Thursday, June 30 @ 07:15:41 PDT by Valensname |
|
First let me say that I think I’m safe to say that those who hold to an accomplished salvation view all believe that the major four events – Parousia, Resurrection, Judgment, and the Kingdom came with the events of cia 70 AD. And that now when a Christian dies they go to Heaven. A point of disagreement is what happened to those physically alive Christians at the Parousia. I don’t believe it is a “salvation issue” or one to withdraw fellowship from my fellow saint about. But I feel it’s an issue to discuss, study, and fun as well.
I do believe that there was a literal catching away or rapture of the first century saints that were still physically alive at the Parousia. However, I do believe that the events surrounding it had many facets, implications, and meanings. In other words I currently understand that Max King’s view as well as the literal rapture view and others may be all correct.
I do want to comment on the historical situation at the time of the Parousia. The supposed point against a literal rapture at the Parousia cia 70 AD is that the disappearance of so many people would have gotten some news. However, I think we tend to look at this from our time frame with cell phones, digital cameras, internet and the widespread news reporting of today. There was none of that then. I seriously question that there were that many faithful Christians physically alive at the Parousia. From many passages regarding the tribulation, the falling away, and if Jesus would find faith in the land…I don’t believe there were that many still physically alive. I’m guessing really in the low hundreds maybe even less than one hundred. I have tried to find information regarding what the population of Christians could have been in the first century especially around 70 AD, but have not come up with much of anything solid. Any information from others would be greatly appreciated. I believe considering the mode of communication then, the population of the cities at that time, the gospel spreading over 40 years, and then the previous tribulation and falling away, that there weren’t that many left around by 70 AD.
It has been argued that somebody would have said something about people disappearing. Let me ask where are the written accounts of Jesus being a person alive at that time outside of the Bible and Josephus? You’d think someone who did all the miracles that He did there would be some other historical evidence, especially around 30 AD. Where are the news accounts of Lazarus raising from the dead? So to me, the argument that there would be a written account of people being caught up if it had indeed occurred is not a strong one at all.
Even the Left Behind books don’t seem to say that people disappearing caused all that much of a uproar, let alone a change in people. (I did read some of the first one in the series at the begging of a friend who thinks my accomplished salvation view is way out there).
I consider those still left and faithful pretty much on par with the “greats” mentioned in the Old Testament. Here was a group of faithful saints who endured so so much and remained faithful until the end. They helped bring about salvation for all humanity. This, in my opinion, is a really big deal! They appeared to have the faith and could be said of them that they walked with God and then were no more, for God took them. I feel we Christians today don’t seem to grasp what those first century Christians outside the apostles did for all humanity.
The remained on Earth view for the faithful Christians at the Parousia, which I used to hold, I also question from a practical point of view. First I believe that the outpouring of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the last days was fulfilled and thus have not been around since. I believe Scripture clearly teaches that there would be a time after the Parousia when prophecy and those type of gifts would be no more, as salvation history was completed and there would be no need for them again. As well as a practical point of view that there is no real evidence that those miracles have been going on for centuries since. But the point I’m trying to make is that from a remained on Earth view those Christians had the gifts and then at the Parousia they then no longer had the gifts but remained here on the Earth? This would seem to be a major disappointment. The earnest was there as a guarantee of their salvation to come. If they remained on Earth and the earnest of the Spirit was now gone from them, then that’s how they knew the Parousia had occurred? It is written in many places that they would know the Parousia took place. But what about those Christians not living in Israel in 70 AD? They only knew the Parousia took place because they were now stripped of the earnest of the Spirit? They wouldn’t have known about Jerusalem’s and the Temple’s fall for quiet awhile. This is one area that I have a problem with regarding the remained on Earth view for faithful Christians at the Parousia.
I’m still and will continue to study. Any thoughts regarding the remained on Earth view and what those Christians might have gone through, felt, and thought? What are some of your views regarding the earnest being gone if a person had it before but didn’t have it after the Parousia?
In Him,
Glenn
|
| |
|
|
Average Score: 3
Votes: 2
 |
|
|
^^Go to Top -  E-mail to Friend -  Print -  View PDF -  Subscribe -  Comments RSS
Re: What Happened to the Gifts of the Spirit at the Parousia? (Score: 1)
 by scargy on Thursday, June 30 @ 08:46:09 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Glenn,
A couple quick comments..The number 144,000 comes to mind.Plus i belive there were many more considering the letters to the 7 churches.About the rapture..Why were they given signs and told to flee if they were going to be raptured away?I totaly disagree with Your statement " They helped bring about salvation for all humanity"."SOLA SCRIPTURA… GRATIA… FIDE… CHRISTUS… DEO GLORIA"!Scripture alone, being our final authority, teaches us that salvation is by grace His grace alone, through faith alone, in Christ alone, for the glory of God alone! As for Other ancient writers who mention Christ are Cornelius Tacitus (AD 55-120), Gaius Suetonius Tranquillas (secretary to Emperor Hadrian (AD 117-138), and Pliny the Younger who was a Roman author and administrator.In addition, the writings of opponents of Christianty such as Jews and Gnostics, confirm that Jesus was a real person.I would say the destruction of the temple would be the biggest sign that the parousia had taken place.I do agree with you that the outpouring of the gifts of the Holy Spirit in the last days was fulfilled and thus have not been around since.That is why i belive no one wrote about the parousia afterwards,not because they were raptured away.Thanks for your article.
John |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by the_prophet_whiteboy on Thursday, June 30 @ 10:02:02 PDT
- by valensname on Thursday, June 30 @ 23:00:33 PDT
- by flannery0 on Friday, July 01 @ 07:47:34 PDT
- by valensname on Friday, July 01 @ 10:23:23 PDT
- by flannery0 on Saturday, July 02 @ 07:51:42 PDT
- by valensname on Saturday, July 02 @ 11:54:45 PDT
- by valensname on Saturday, July 02 @ 11:55:40 PDT
- by the_prophet_whiteboy on Saturday, July 02 @ 13:56:39 PDT
- by valensname on Saturday, July 02 @ 20:14:43 PDT
- by flannery0 on Sunday, July 03 @ 07:36:19 PDT
- by valensname on Monday, July 04 @ 02:58:52 PDT
- by Anonymous on Friday, July 01 @ 11:11:08 PDT
- by valensname on Thursday, June 30 @ 22:52:31 PDT
- by scargy on Thursday, June 30 @ 23:19:53 PDT
- by valensname on Thursday, June 30 @ 23:42:30 PDT
- by Dana_Nathan_Salsbury on Monday, July 04 @ 06:17:01 PDT
- by Dana_Nathan_Salsbury on Monday, July 04 @ 06:18:22 PDT
- by forgivenone2002 on Tuesday, July 05 @ 10:46:51 PDT
- by forgivenone2002 on Tuesday, July 05 @ 10:50:46 PDT
Re: What Happened to the Gifts of the Spirit at the Parousia? (Score: 1)
by Waidmann on Thursday, June 30 @ 11:45:05 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Glen,
What about John? Whether it was John who was seen during the reign of Domitian or the Revelation that was seen during Domitian's reign is irrevelant. Apparently John was around till the mid-90s. (Ireneus)
Surely one would not suspect that he was not a Believer.
Waidmann |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by SuperSoulFighter on Thursday, June 30 @ 12:49:24 PDT
- by valensname on Thursday, June 30 @ 23:08:19 PDT
- by Waidmann on Friday, July 01 @ 03:48:28 PDT
- by valensname on Friday, July 01 @ 10:19:26 PDT
- by Waidmann on Friday, July 01 @ 11:31:49 PDT
- by valensname on Friday, July 01 @ 23:37:07 PDT
- by Waidmann on Saturday, July 02 @ 15:00:23 PDT
- by valensname on Saturday, July 02 @ 20:28:59 PDT
Re: What Happened to the Gifts of the Spirit at the Parousia? (Score: 1)
by SuperSoulFighter on Thursday, June 30 @ 12:53:57 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Excellent comments and insights, Valensname! I, too, am a "literal, physical rapturist" (ca. AD 70). We are in Ed Stevens' "camp" on this apparently. And I completely agree concerning both the limited number of Christians alive at that time AND the lack of means to publish the disappearance of these people on a broad scale.
Furthermore, as I've argued here (at PP) previously, I believe there very likely was a conspiracy of sorts on the part of those who were "left behind", wherein they attempted to pretend that "nothing had happened" (i.e. that they HADN'T been caught unprepared, spiritually) and that things were carrying on as usual. I believe this is where the great hoax of the post-AD 70 "church" had its origins.
The rapture at that time would also explain the dearth of Christian writings in the latter part of the First Century, especially any existing commentaries (from that time) identifying the powerful, "wold-shattering/changing" significance of 70 AD.
Good thoughts, Glenn. You and I are very much in agreement on all of the items covered in your article!
John McPherson |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by scargy on Thursday, June 30 @ 22:03:54 PDT
- by valensname on Thursday, June 30 @ 23:13:07 PDT
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by forgivenone2002 on Thursday, June 30 @ 15:14:04 PDT
Re: What Happened to the Gifts of the Spirit at the Parousia? (Score: 1)
by John4xvi on Thursday, June 30 @ 14:14:22 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Hi Glen,
You said, "I’m still and will continue to study."
Did study get you regenerated, born again, in covenant, or whatever you wish to call it?
Or is it a gift of God, and God being spirit a "SPIRITUAL GIFT"?
Are you sure that you THINK the spiritual gifts are DEAD
Just a thought,
John |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by scargy on Thursday, June 30 @ 21:03:56 PDT
- by forgivenone2002 on Thursday, June 30 @ 21:41:34 PDT
- by valensname on Thursday, June 30 @ 23:23:55 PDT
- by forgivenone2002 on Friday, July 01 @ 00:01:01 PDT
- by JL on Friday, July 01 @ 10:13:22 PDT
- by Dana_Nathan_Salsbury on Monday, July 04 @ 06:33:12 PDT
- by JL on Monday, July 04 @ 08:08:22 PDT
- by Dana_Nathan_Salsbury on Monday, July 04 @ 23:18:54 PDT
- by JL on Tuesday, July 05 @ 07:51:46 PDT
- by valensname on Thursday, June 30 @ 23:30:11 PDT
Surviving Saints Post AD70 (Score: 1)
by EWMI on Thursday, June 30 @ 16:33:59 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | | Have you looked at the work of the Caldean and Nestorian churches? They claim a form of apostolic succession with attendant writings dating back to the apostles. (of course this is only external evidence) |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by Virgil on Thursday, June 30 @ 17:29:58 PDT
- by Andre on Thursday, June 30 @ 23:18:08 PDT
- by Dana_Nathan_Salsbury on Monday, July 04 @ 06:46:23 PDT
- by EWMI on Thursday, June 30 @ 23:52:52 PDT
- by valensname on Thursday, June 30 @ 23:33:33 PDT
- by EWMI on Friday, July 01 @ 04:41:03 PDT
- by EWMI on Friday, July 01 @ 05:19:34 PDT
- by valensname on Friday, July 01 @ 10:28:15 PDT
Re: What Happened to the Gifts of the Spirit at the Parousia? (Score: 1)
by Andy on Saturday, July 02 @ 20:49:14 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | | Valensname;re What happened to the gifts of the Spirit:The Rapture. We,2000 yrs after the fact forget that our Lord had to deal with the O.T.saints and those under the old covenant.Those saints were not in heaven but in limbo and waiting for their release. This could not happen until Christ's work was completely finished and the New Covenant came into operation.The release of the O.T. saints and the then living saints were at that point raptured. |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
Heaven is where God is! (Score: 1)
by DavidF on Sunday, July 03 @ 12:00:20 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Glenn: This may be helpful concerning your discussion with prophet whiteboy and flanneryO.
Heaven is Biblically typified or defined as the Holy of Holies in the temple, where the Almighty dwells, and yet another aspect of heaven is a spiritual space, another dimension beyond physical eyesight, where the souls of men, and angels and other spirits move and have their being.
2 PE 3:10-13 describes the destruction of the temporal temple (heaven and earth), at Jerusalem in A.D. 70, and the institution of the eternal temple (new heavens and earth).
RE 21:22 shows us that the Lord God Almighty and the Lamb are the temple in the New Jerusalem.
EPH 2:6 states that before physical death, the saints are raised up and seated with God in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus.
EPH 2:19-22 tells us that the saints are all part of the temple in which God dwells.
RE 21:9-10 describes the bride (the saints) as the New Jerusalem.
It looks to me like we are seated with God in heaven and in the New Jerusalem, bonded and intricately united as one with them, even as Christ and the Father are one, John 14:20-23 (“On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you…we will come to him and make our home with him.”)
The change at A.D. 70 was not, as you say, “the earnest of the Spirit was now gone from them, then that’s how they knew the Parousia had occurred”, but rather that the full Deity - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - had now made their home in the New Temple of His people on the earth.
Look at Christ’s quote above; He states “On that day you will realize”. And what would they “realize”? That their salvation was complete; that they were now one with the Almighty and at full unity with Him. And how would they “realize” this? They realized it at the moment the full Deity came to them and made His home in them.
In A.D. 70, (“On that day“) the physically alive Christians and those who had died previously were joined forever as one with the Father when He made His home with them on the earth. All Christians were raised together as one to meet the Deity in the ‘air” (1 Thess. 4:17). The word “aer” in the Greek here means the 6 feet of atmosphere at the surface of earth, not the sky or space above it (see the Birks article in these responses).
God Almighty did not join His body on earth at 20,000 feet - He joined it where they were, at 6 feet, and that is where He still is today, in us.
So wherever the Almighty is, whether in heaven (EPH 2:6) or in the temple (RE 21:22) or in the New Jerusalem (RE 21:9-10), we are already there with Him, as Jesus Christ said “…that you also may be where I am going.” John 14:3.
|
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by valensname on Monday, July 04 @ 03:22:38 PDT
- by flannery0 on Monday, July 04 @ 07:01:00 PDT
- by scargy on Monday, July 04 @ 10:28:37 PDT
- by valensname on Monday, July 04 @ 11:06:36 PDT
- by flannery0 on Monday, July 04 @ 12:10:27 PDT
- by flannery0 on Monday, July 04 @ 12:15:49 PDT
- by valensname on Tuesday, July 05 @ 00:54:53 PDT
- by flannery0 on Tuesday, July 05 @ 03:34:14 PDT
- by valensname on Tuesday, July 05 @ 10:51:38 PDT
- by flannery0 on Tuesday, July 05 @ 13:32:37 PDT
- by scargy on Tuesday, July 05 @ 14:21:07 PDT
- by valensname on Wednesday, July 06 @ 01:12:44 PDT
- by flannery0 on Wednesday, July 06 @ 06:32:34 PDT
- by valensname on Wednesday, July 06 @ 11:45:48 PDT
- by DavidF on Tuesday, July 05 @ 19:11:00 PDT
| 
|
