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Why We Need Creeds
Interview with Jaroslav Pelikan
World-renowned historian Jaroslav Pelikan has spent decades researching and analyzing Christian confessions of faith. He recently spoke to Beliefnet about Credo, his comprehensive overview of the development of creeds.Many spiritual seekers are not comfortable with very idea of creeds. Why are creeds important to Christianity--and all religions? Why do we need them?
A faith that is completely personal and subjective has its ups and downs. You can't count on having only ups. Therefore, what's needed is some kind of continuity both within the faith life of an individual from month to month and year to year, and for that individual with the community of believers from previous ages. The fluctuations of personal belief need to be protected from going off the page by some kind of assertion, a shared faith which provides a floor and a ceiling.
Creeds function the way a constitution functions in a political society--as a statement of shared principles and convictions, and a celebration of those convictions. Just as we, in the American political order, cherish and value individual freedom but believe that freedom is protected both from external force and from its own internal threat by a constitution and the bill of rights, so a creed is a way of enshrining faith in such a way that people can go on affirming it.
Your book indicates that Jesus sanctioned the idea of creeds by the emphasis he placed on the Shema. You're saying the Shema is the basis of all Christian creeds?
Sure. The most important Christian creed, the Nicene Creed, begins with the words "I believe in one God," which of course is the statement of the Shema. Jesus quotes the Shema in the gospel of Mark. Mark says many important and exalted things about the person of Jesus, and speaks of him as divine in his words and deeds and person. So how can someone whom the Christian faith affirms to be divine say "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is one"? How do you reconcile the oneness that he confesses with the more-than-oneness of the divine that he represents? In a simple sense, that's what the creed, and the doctrine of the Trinity confessed in the creed, try to do.
They try to hold those together without weakening either one or pretending to know more about the unknowable than the human mind is capable.
How did the creed as we know it come about?
The creed grew out of a baptismal creed. Baptism was administered by a bishop or priest with the formula "You are baptized in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit." Baptism involved faith and confession--some kind of statement of your faith. A lot of local [statements] developed across the Mediterranean world. What was eventually adopted in 381 at the Council of Constantinople as what we call the Nicene Creed appears to be the adaptation of a creed that was being used for baptism, maybe in the city of Caesarea.
The most important thing that happened after its adoption was the decision to make a recitation--a chanting, singing, or statement--of that creed a part of the liturgy of Holy Communion.
It was an official statement of a council, it became an indispensable part of the daily and Sunday Eucharist, and it was the basis for the instruction of the young and of prospective believers.
The creed, the Ten Commandments, and the Lord's Prayer was the core of the catechism. Every child was to be instructed in the meaning of those three texts. Those are the ones you need to be able to recite all your life. Anyone who came in from the outside and said, "You know, I think I'd like to be a Christian--what does it take?" Well, this is what it takes.
When St. Paul says faith, hope, and love, faith meant the creed--"I believe." Hope meant the Lord's Prayer--what we hope for, we pray for. And love meant the 10 Commandments, because they tell us what love does when it goes into action. I get this from St. Augustine.
There aren't many sets of words that have been recited every single day for nearly two thousand years. It embeds itself in the individual and collective memory of the church.
Historically speaking, what has been the most disputed part of the Nicene Creed? The filioque?
Yes, that's the one on which the most ink has been shed. I once wrote that that there must be one circle of Dante's hell reserved for the people who wrote all those things. [laughs]
Many of Beliefnet's Orthodox readers seem concerned about the Catholic-Orthodox split, wondering if they should engage in dialogue or keep their distance.
I'm a historian, and I answer all such questions by history. I would say they would find it useful to look at what has happened in 150 years in the West. To read the decrees of the First Vatican Council, 1869 and 1870, and then the decrees of the Second. The first was the one that proclaimed the infallibility of the pope. It's defiant, rigid, "take it or leave it." The Second Vatican Council does not deny what has been previously said, but it breathes a completely different spirit. The Second Vatican Council is based on a fresh reading of the Bible, the Church Fathers, especially the Greek Church Fathers, and on the liturgy rather than canon law. The Church is not defined in legal terms as a corporation, but in liturgical terms as a corpus, the body of Christ.
Those three ways of looking at things are the very ones that define the Orthodox tradition: scripture, the Fathers, and the liturgy. For all the differences that still remain even after Vatican II, the perspective has shifted. What the Second Vatican Council says about the East, considering all the history, is very fraternal.
Going back to other parts of the Creed, was "light from light" ever disputed? It's beautiful, but I always wondered why it's in there.
I've got a book on that too. In the first chapter of the epistle to the Hebrews, Christ is called the radiance of the Father. The New Testament says God is light. Radiance proceeds from a source--in our case, the sun or a light bulb--and is distinct from that source, because the sun is not here in my room right now. It's distinct from that source but it's not separate from it or different in its nature from it. It's the same light. So light comes from light, being both distinct and identical. So is Christ in relation to the Father.
Why was it necessary to include that when they'd already said "God from God"?
Partly because they were already using that in their worship and their hymns. If anything is worth saying, it's worth saying more than once.
Your book traces many schisms. What perspective does history give you about ecumenism today? Is there hope, or do you think churches will keep splitting?
In the third volume of the collection, there are a number of joint statements of the faith, usually by two groups who had been separated for a long time; for example, a recent Catholic-Lutheran statement on the doctrine of justification.
There's a joint statement by Pope John Paul II and the head of the Armenian Church. They'd been separated since 451. Both of them, respecting their own traditions, met, discussed, and concluded that not only were there strong political factors that had originally driven them apart, but also misunderstanding--partly as a consequence of language (Armenian, Greek, and Latin are very different). And that since Christian truth is never just a mathematical formula but is dialectical--it says two things at the same time--if you emphasize one of those at the expense of the other, you tilt in one or the other direction.
What they said was that over the course of the centuries, in the heat of theological battle, such a tilt had indeed come in. But that now having looked at the questions carefully, they concluded that whatever differences [existed] were differences of emphasis within a single faith and should not keep people apart any more. It's a hopeful sign, and there are a number of such, like the document that brought together the church of South India.
Out of a number of countries--Ghana, Madagascar, China--has come the effort to express in their own language the faith that they have together, to do it with their own cultural setting and vocabulary. Out of that have come reunions and their own fresh way of stating the faith. That's a very hopeful sign. My favorite is the Masai Creed.
That's an amazing creed. It includes a part about Jesus' burial: "the hyenas did not touch him."
Here in Africa, suddenly these new Christian believers--reading the gospels and receiving their faith and having to fight the hyenas around them--suddenly they read that Jesus was buried in a rock tomb, rather than underground as we bury, to keep the wild animals away. In none of these other creeds had anyone ever said anything about his being buried in a rock tomb. Suddenly "and the hyenas did not touch his body." That Jesus was "always on safari."
Did you have concerns that in creeds like this one, they added or removed material from the Nicene Creed?
That's true in other statements of faith as well after Nicea. In the Tome of Leo the First (449), it says "it was a human nature that wept when Lazarus died, and it was the divine nature that raised Lazarus from the dead." So it takes a gospel incident and finds there an expression of a question that was being debated, namely the relation between the divine and the human. They are distinct; the divine nature did not weep, and the human nature was not capable of raising a friend from the dead. But one person, who was both divine and human, wept and raised him from the dead. So a gospel story becomes the most effective way to articulate an answer to distortions on both sides.
Your book talks about the 'deeds and creeds' conflict--how creeds are criticized for coming at the expense of actions. You say it's agreed that dogma and ethics should be inseparable. How can the creed help guide practice?
What's that Gilbert and Sullivan line? "I have a little list." [laughs] Any consideration of Christian life and ethics must always ask "what is distinctive about the Christian life?" What's the difference between being a Christian and being a nice guy, a good neighbor, an upright citizen, or an honest businessman? We all know people to whom we will give our house keys and the combination of our safe who don't believe what Christians believe. So it's quite possible, despite what some evangelists may say, even without faith in God, to be an honest and upright citizen.
So what's the value added of being a Christian? Part of the answer is the motivation for doing [good], and the safety net when human weakness brings about a minor or major violation of the code of conduct we profess. What do you do with others or yourself as a sinner?
The trouble with morality is it's not self-perpetuating. You need to have some way of coping with the human propensity to hypocrisy and deception and self-deception. You could say the creed is there to motivate, on the positive side, and to heal when there is a violation. The word salvation in Greek really means healing. Without that, a code of moral conduct by itself--the Scout oath--won't sustain you. That's why St. Paul says all those things about the law without faith.
Would meditating on a certain part of the creed impel you to a certain action?
It often does. Start at the beginning: when you take the interpretation of our environmental responsibility--one that's been articulated so beautifully and powerfully by the current Patriarch of Constantinople, Bartholomew (who's known as the 'green patriarch')--all of that comes from this old man sitting in the middle of Turkey thinking about what it means to say "maker of heaven and earth, of all that is visible and invisible." [Read the statement.]
[It's saying] I live in a world that is a continuum from the angels to the oysters. All of it is the product of divine activity. That's what the creed says. If that's the case, in a very real sense, every creature comes from the same Father, and that makes them all brothers and sisters. Without identifying the world with God in a pantheistic way, it nevertheless provides a direct and powerful motivation for treating creatures as our fellows. That's one example.
Are we moving beyond the era of creeds?
In my book, I raise the question "Do creeds have a future as well as a past?" I invoke the analogy of a CD. There's nothing more static than a CD: they stack up on a shelf, get dusty. They can go from year to year without ever touching anyone. But anytime you want to, you can put that CD in a player and all of a sudden out comes the Credo from the B minor mass of Bach. It's been there all along.
So it is with creeds and their history. At crucial times, when you can no longer count on your own strength of will, character, conviction, and guts, you simply say "I don't know where I am right now, but I want to be part of the company that says 'I believe in one God.'"




I greatly respect Pelikan's work on the history of dogma, but he is making several assumptions here, that are leading him in the wrong direction.
1. Just because Jesus quoted the Shema, that doesn't mean Jesus endorses ALL creeds. This is a logical falacy at best. What about the creeds of Mormons or Jehovah Witnesses? They are all diametrically opposed therefore not all valid.
2. Concerning the Masai Creed, Pelikan admits that there is a cultural and social aspect to it, i.e. "The hyenas didn't touch his body" - this follows that most likely there is a cultural and social truth to ALL creeds and since none of the creeds are specifically found in the scripture, then they should be questioned. Did Jesus live in Africa? Was he buried in Africa? Of course not. Then why does the Masai creed mention that he "was always on safari doing good" or that "the hyenas didn't touch his body?" Evidently, the African Jesus was molded to fit the cultural characterstics of the African society. This brings comfort to the christians, and brings Jesus closer to them. That however doesn't make the creed's statements true!
3. At last, Pelikan didn't address the "inspiration" of the creeds much. I would have loved to ask him how the Nicene Creed can be authoritative since he converted to the Orthodox church a few years ago. He would be hard-pressed to show that creeds have any authority beyond the walls of the room in which they were created.
So the answer is, No, we don't need the creeds. Only weak Christians, and those who are unwilling to study God's word on their own seem to "need" them.
Good points and good conclusions IMO Virgil.
IMO
The work behind decades of research is important for sure and to be respected. Nevertheless a conclusion that the creeds will be replaced by open and available education, by one who wishes to sell some of his books about creeds would not do much to help sell such books for sure.
We do not need a creed that says that God is Love. Nor do we need a church organization with its creeds to make that determination. The Bible is its own creed. We simply agree or disagree or through a lack the biblical education make the incorrect determination. A group of people making that determination has no more “credence” than any other group or organization, which may agree or disagree.
The only importance that a creed could have is to say, “This is where we are at in our thinking at this time as a group of people organizing ourselves to be useful in service to our Creator. If you agree with where we are presently at as an organization then you fit in with our particular approach to what we see as service and servant hood.”
Blessings Barry
we are all in this together
Hey Virgil...
I agree for the most part with what you've said, but isn't your last sentence a bit overstated? Many of the creeds are excellent summations of faith and doctrine and are helpful in understanding scripture... much like commentaries, dictionaries, encyclopaedias and books by R. C. Sproul! :-)
I don't think the creeds are unnecessary when taken in this sense. It is the "authoritative pedestal" that some put them on that I have a problem with. I have some friends who can quote entire catechisms they memorized as children, but don't even know the 27 books of the NT... much less quote entire passages from any of them! This "elevated status" has been a real stumbling block to many in the Kingdom. But even though this creedalism is detestable to me, I do not believe that they are inherently wrong or useless; just an example of misplaced confidence that, sadly, many Christians have promoted. Would you agree or am I missing something?
Greg
"It is amazing what you can see if you just look around." - Yogi Berra
Greg,
I don't know if my statement is overstated, but why would anyone need a "summation of faith and doctrine" to begin with, when these things change on a regular basis?
For me to be satisfied with it, a creed would have to be extremely generic in its form.
Whenever someone professes a creed, that tells me how that person thinks: "I have arrived at the pinnacle of my religion, I know everything there is to know, and I have the truth." That's nothing short of ridiculous.
In my opinion, creeds are men, trying to put God in a box. Let me show you an example. For years, I remember thinking that because the bible is true, there can't be life on other planets. However, a rock-n-roller Christian named Larry Norman once wrote, "if there's life on other planets, then I'm sure that Jesus died for them too..." IOW, anytime we try to "read between the lines," or "get knee deep in the theology" we limit God.
I think of all the folks who get all wigged out if someone quotes something from Zen, as if there is no way that God showed something to them without the bible. And yet, the bible itself says that creation is a revelator of God. So, why can't people like the Native Americans or the Chinese, apart from Christ, figure out that "the Great Spirit" is a good and loving God? To back up my point biblically, let's consider three biblical examples:
1. Melchizedek. He is called a priest of the Most High. Really? What religion was he priest of? If Abraham was chosen, how is it that Mel got in on it? Wouldn't Abe be the high priest? In reality, God had revealed himself to others, including and especially Melchizedek.
2. The astrologers, called the Magi (where we get the word "magic"), knew of the prophecies of Israel's Messiah, how he would come into the world to save it. The Magi were pagans, in our definition of the word today.
3. Mars Hill. The Athenians were worshipping "The Unknown God." Yet, when Paul visited there, he didn't do what most modern evangelists would do. He didn't scream, "OUT YOU DEVIL, YOU DEMONS OF FALSE RELIGION. OUT!!!" No, Paul said peacefully, "I perceive that you are a religious people, for you worship God, whom you do not know. I have come to make him known to you." Paul didn't say that the Athenians worshipped DEMONS. Nope, he said they worshipped a god they did not know - and Paul was going to introduce them to him. That would be YWHW, that unknown (to the men of Athens)god.
These are just three examples I can think of. God has revealed himself through creation, and his character through the bible. He has revealed his love for humanity through his son, our Lord Jesus Christ. If we spent more time telling people about God's love through Christ, rather than our doctrines about God and Christ, I think that more of the world's problems would be solved. And, please, try not casting out demons you find under every rock...the demon you exorcise may be your own.
ed
Papa is especially fond of us
Great points Ed. By the way, I don't want to discount ALL relevants of creeds. Some of these creeds are spectacular, and they offer great insight into the mind of those who created them. But that's about all they are good for: research, historical and cultural relevance. And they make nice tradition too, something to stick up for. :)
The key is Jesus Christ. No matter what "culture" it is, it is Jesus Christ that must be preached, not some cultural emphemism for God, which is idolatry. The true God must be preached.
Dear Ed,
How would Paul approach this custom of the Ethiopian "culture?"
"Kidnapping young girls has long been part of the marriage custom in Ethiopia. The United Nations estimates that more than 70 percent of marriages in Ethiopia are by abduction, practiced in rural areas where most of the country's 71 million people live."
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/apafrica_story.asp?category=1105&...
davo – pantelism.com
Maybe with his Hebrew heritage Paul might not have seen things in terms of "kidnapping" – I mean prearranged marriage IS in the Bible [Gen 24:2-4].
davo – pantelism.com –
"And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world." 1Jn 2:2
davo – pantelism.com
Correctomundo, Dave :) Our courting rituals would be looked upon as shameful behavior in Paul's culture.
What's Dave correct about, Jer? Seems to me he is severely misinterpreting Scripture here. Read my response to him.
What you call "our courting rituals" I assume you really are referring to what most people call our secularist humanist society's "dating practices." There are indeed "shameful" and rob young men and women fruitful, satisfying long-term marriages which the church is chiefly to blame for allowing.
we are all in this together
Kurt, he was talking about "arranged marriages" which do appear in the Bible quite often and they also seem to be endorsed by God. Are you suggesting that women actually had a saying in who they married and had the power to reject their father's choice? Think again batman!
Virgil,
I'll suggest that women actually had a say in who they married. It was specifically mentioned that Rebecah was asked. Can you find an example of a woman in the Bible who was forced to marry someone she didn't want to marry? No. That's evidence that all of them gave their approval.
The Babylonian Talmud which supposedly was the Pharisical law handed down from Ezra required the woman's consent for for all marriages. After 19, the daughter could marry without the father's consent.
It's all spelled out in extreme detail.
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Virgil,
JL did a nice job responding so there's not much I can add but this:
Let's see you quote some Scripture for us and let's take a look at it in detail.
I'm betting you won't because there is no evidence for your point that I have seen in Scripture. But, I'm willing to look at your evidence. I'm not from Missouri, but "show me!" :)
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Dave is correct about arranged marriages. Marriages were often arranged for social or political gains, not romantic love.
With regard to "courting rituals," I wasn't referring to anything "sexual" if that was your impression. Talking to an unrelated male, making eye contact, touching (e.g. holding hands), etc. would all be viewed as shameful behavior in some ancient cultures.
In any case, I doubt any of this would fly in our culture. Some things are culturally relative.
Jer,
JL answered nicely about this. You only seem to be making generalizations.
Your "arranged marriages" are not Biblical. In fact, if not Biblical, then they must be pagan. Or more precisely, they had the right idea from God at the beginning, but human depravity caused it to "evolve" (sorry for the term) to the mess we have today. Sounds like you and Davo should do some research into the history of courtship and modesty.
BTW, what does it mean to be "culturally relative?"
Confused,
Kurt
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Kurt You only seem to be making generalizations.
Jer You are correct. I was not speaking about anything regarding the article you posted. I was simply pointing out that our "customs" would be viewed as shameful, too. Have you ever been on a date? Shame on you ;)
Kurt Your "arranged marriages" are not Biblical. In fact, if not Biblical, then they must be pagan. Or more precisely, they had the right idea from God at the beginning, but human depravity caused it to "evolve" (sorry for the term) to the mess we have today.
Jer What does the phrase "given in marriage" mean? A woman would be "given" by her father, older brother, or some other male kin responsible for her. Eve didn't have much of a choice when God, "in the beginning," "gave" her to Adam. Bethuel "gave" Rebekah to Isaac "as the LORD has spoken." (Gen 24:51) Laban gave Leah and Rachel to Jacob after worked off the "bride price." Romantic, huh? Jethro "gave" Zipporah to Moses (Ex 2:21). Are the patriarchs, not to mention God, pagan?
Kurt Sounds like you and Davo should do some research into the history of courtship and modesty.
Jer Ok ;)
I forgot to mention Levirate marriage. A brother was required by the Law to marry his brother's wife should that brother die without an heir. (Deu 25:5-10) Verse 5 reads, "If brothers dwell together, and one of them dies and has no son, the wife of the dead man shall not be married outside the family to a stranger. Her husband's brother shall go in to her and take her as his wife and perform the duty of a husband's brother to her." If the brother refuses to "take" the woman, he is publicly shamed by her.
This is the Law that got Onan in trouble. Genesis 38:8-10 reads, "Then Judah said to Onan, 'Go in to your brother's wife, and perform your duty as a brother-in-law to her, and raise up offspring for your brother.' Onan knew that the offspring would not be his; so when he went in to his brother's wife, he wasted his seed on the ground in order not to give offspring to his brother. But what he did was displeasing in the sight of the LORD; so He took his life also."
Jer,
This just shows us through Scripture that there is much more to marriage (in general, relationships) than than "romance" (i.e. animal magnetism) that this hedonistic society keeps telling us.
Deu. 25 also shows us that marriages were arranged, which you said is "not Biblical" and "pagan." ;)
Jer: Romantic, huh?
There's the key to understanding, Jer. Romance. Is "romance" the first and greatest criterion for marriage? If marriage is an archtype of the "marriage" between Jesus and his people, (Eph 5:22-31;Rev 9:7-9), should "romance" take such a prominent role as society has been pounding into our heads for years through movies and books? Hasn't this view been foisted upon us and backed up by our lusts?
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Perhaps I should clarify. I am not arguing for or against arranged marriages. I was dealing with your statement, "Your 'arranged marriages' are not Biblical. In fact, if not Biblical, then they must be pagan..."
I have given examples to the contrary. So were the the patriarchs acting like pagans? What about God in the garden?
Jer,
I think you are taking this to a point of absurdity.
I think the problem lies in your idea of what an "arranged" marriage really is and what "free" choice is.
Ok. So you're not going to answer the question :)
Surely your make this statement in jest, Davo?
Or perhaps you don't understand the meanings of "kidnapped" or for that matter "pre-arranged marriage in the Bible"
Anyway, you conveniently left out the verses after verse 4 which should convince anyone that Scripture here is neither talking about "kidnapping" nor a "pre-arranged marriage" which is really more pagan in it's terms and origins - like the Hindus. Could it be that you are placing Hindu presuppositions and overlaying them on the Scripture verses of Genesis? Is that how those in the "emerging church" seek to find common ground with pagans?
Since you evidently didn't read the article I linked, let me provide you with some "choice" quotes for you:
"A 12-year-old girl who was abducted and beaten by men trying to force her into a marriage..."
"The girl, missing for a week, had been taken by seven men who wanted to force her to marry one of them....:
"She was beaten repeatedly before she was found..."
"Often these young girls are raped and severely beaten to force them to accept the marriage...."
"....one of the men had wanted to marry the girl against her wishes."
"The girl, the youngest of four siblings, was "shocked and terrified" after her abduction and had to be treated for the cuts from her beatings..."
Does this in anyway look like something that God supports Scripturally?
Again I ask, praytell, how would Paul seek to come alongside these culturally-different men with their "custom" of "taking" a wife without offending the "sensibilities" of this sick pagan lifestyle? Oh, sorry. Didn't mean to be intolerant!!! Please forgive me - NOT!
According to you and Jer, would ol' Paul try to find "common" ground with some idea of an "arranged marriage" to see how similiar "god's" ways are to their ways? LOL
we are all in this together
First of all Kurt, if you actually knew the context in which the scriptures tell us that God's ways are not our ways, and his thoughts are higher than our thoughts, you would know how foolish your statements are.
Secondly, as usual you bring nothing to the table except what you have preconceived in your little head. Not one single person here, davo, Jer,me or Virgil would sit by and do nothing when faced with such cultural situations. We would, as would any Christian, preach Jesus to them, as did Paul. When and if they embraced the belief in the biblical god, they would be instructed in the faith to stop abusing women in this way. By the way, what are YOU doing about this horrible situation, Mr. self-righteous?
Thirdly, I know that I come here frequently speaking that we should be at peace with one another, and that I do not always follow my own admonition - especially in this case, where a person with a very small mind, and very big mouth keeps putting his very big foot in it.
Get off your high-horse and try reading what is being written, instead of accusing your brethren (seeing as how the accuser of the brethren in the bible was named SATAN).
I apologize to all reading this wondering why I am treating Kurt in such a nasty manner. It has to do with Proverbs - answer a fool according to his folly.
ed
Papa is especially fond of us
Because Kurt has the tendency to fly off the handle and not deal with what I wrote, I thought that I would do a little contextual look at ways and thoughts of God being higher than ours.
Isaiah 55:1-10, 1 The Lord says, "All you who are thirsty, come and drink. Those of you who do not have money, come, buy and eat! Come buy wine and milk without money and without cost. 2 Why spend your money on something that is not real food? Why work for something that doesn't really satisfy you? Listen closely to me, and you will eat what is good; your soul will enjoy the rich food that satisfies. 3 Come to me and listen; listen to me so you may live. I will make an agreement with you that will last forever. I will give you the blessings I promised to David. 4 I made David a witness of my power for all nations, a ruler and commander of many nations. 5 You will call for nations that you don't yet know. And these nations that do not know you will run to you because of the Lord your God, because of the Holy One of Israel who honors you."
6 So you should look for the Lord before it is too late; you should call to him while he is near. 7 The wicked should stop doing wrong, and they should stop their evil thoughts. They should return to the Lord so he may have mercy on them. They should come to our God, because he will freely forgive them. 8 The Lord says, "My thoughts are not like your thoughts. Your ways are not like my ways. 9 Just as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts higher than your thoughts. (NCV).
Notice in vs. 5, God says that they would call nations that they do not know. That was what I was talking about earlier: the Zoroastrians, the Athenians, the Romans, etc. were all nations that did not know the Lord. God has called them.
In vs. 6 and following, God points out that the wicked should repent of their wicked ways. He says that he would forgive them if they did. This would make the typical "God-fearer" to say, "hey wait a minute, those native Americans don't know "the true God", so why would God bless them" Well, because his ways are not our ways. Where we condemn, he forgives when they turn from their wickedness. God forgives cultures who have sinful practices when they hear God's word and repent of their ways...but not in Kurt's reasoning I guess. Can't quite figure out what he is whining about again, and again...and again...and again...and...
I am weary. No one can make any comment on this site any more without Kurt and his buddies condemning them. I'm sick of it.
But, did Kurt deal at all with the scriptural examples I gave? Did Kurt tell us how Melchizedek was a High Priest of the Most High God, when he was not of the line of Abraham? Did he explain why Paul called the "unknown God" the true God? Where is Kurt's exegesis? Nowhere, because all Kurt can do is defame, slander, and accuse. We know from where that spirit comes, right. Well if you don't, I do.
ed
Papa is especially fond of us
Ed,
You are correct that Kurt's response was irrelevant to your post. But you need to be careful. Virgil, Jer, and Davo took the Kurt's bait and defended gross sin. Their very words are contrary to what you've said here that their words and actions would be. Kurt's not the only fool in this matter.
Now I've got to go talk to a young man about courting my daughter.
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
JL: Virgil, Jer, and Davo took the Kurt's bait and defended gross sin.
Jer: I never defended "gross sin." I didn't even comment on the content of the article. I was simply pointing out that our "customs" would be viewed as shameful, too. Before calling people names and drawing conclusions about their character, perhaps you should read more carefully ;) Oh, well. It's time for coffee 8)
Jer,
You responde with, "Dave is correct about arranged marriages." Right about what? Davo had just made a comment equating arranged marriages to kidnapping.
So what you were simply pointing out is quite different from what you said.
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
JL: You responde with, "Dave is correct about arranged marriages." Right about what? Davo had just made a comment equating arranged marriages to kidnapping.
Davo: I mean prearranged marriage IS in the Bible.
Jer: "Dave is correct about arranged marriages."
JL, when did I comment on "kidnapping" or comment on Kurt's article or say "kidnapping" and "arranged marriages" are the same. I did not. Instead of apologizing you defend your misrepresentation of me... even after I clarify my position. Thanks ;) Apology accepted :P
Yes JL, I think you're the one jumping the gun here – I simply replied to the open question as to what Paul's approach might have been in regards to the question asked. If "kidnapped" as we understand kidnapped, then I would imagine Paul would have responded in kind as we would. My response was particularly to Kurt's question – and like his question had NOTHING to do with the article.
davo – pantelism.com –
davo – pantelism.com
Davo,
Read vs. 5. The woman had a choice. Biblical pre-arranged marriage was not kidnapping.
As Ed pointed out, Kurt changed the subject. It was interesting how the rest of you followed Kurt's line, but justified the evil.
Take care.
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Well, Ed and JL, you lost me. It's degenerating into confusion. Time to disengage.
Two main points I want to make in an effort to clear the air:
1) There was no "changing of the subject." All subjects have God's underlying truth and are tied together - marriage, ways to reach the "lost", what we eat, etc. There's God's way, and then there is man's way. Our goal (at least my goal) is to seek out God's way - not my own way. The way we dress, talk, eat, walk, think all have to be brought under captivity to Christ as revealed throught the precepts, principles,and patterns of Scripture - God's Word/Mind. If you don't start with this, you not doing God's Will, you're doing your own.
2) Yes, God's thoughts are not our (man's) thoughts, Ed, in one sense. But, we are regenerated men with the Holy Spirit who have been given special revelation (Scripture) and general revelation (consciences imbued with God's law written into it). How do we know if our general revelation (conscience) is right? We must check it against the special revelation (Scripture) which is the final authority because we are still in the flesh, not against supposed "customs" of other cultures that may have a truth in it for us.
No, unregenerated men (pagans/heathens) don't have their own special truth (Gnosticism?) outside of Scripture that they can 'share" with us so we can ooh and aah and make "connections" to them through wretched customs and perverted thoughts. WE have the truth - both in conscience and in the WORD - because God says we do. Scripture says we are to preach the Gospel (Jesus Christ) and God will convert whom HE decides. End of story - no special connections to be made to show some "truth" in their thinking or ways.
Creating unScriptual movies filled with untruth like Gibson's "Passion" to overwhelm people's emotions and sear their minds with gratuitous violence, hiring body builders with a positive mental attitude message to come to church to try the reach the fitness nuts, improperly relating misinterpreted Scriptures about "courtship/marriage" to heathens who kidnap and force themselves on young girls as is their custom with the intent to find "commmon ground" with them, allowing cultures to remain naked and don't advise them to cover up their nakedness as to not to steal the emotions of others all for the sake of "respecting their "culture", etc., etc. are all ludicrious examples of how evangelicals and neo-evangelicals have gone wrong.
Modern church, post-modern church, emerging church - new fangled ways of man to do it HIS own way, not God's way. We need to wake up and get our heads out of this secularized culture that has Christians all turned around and who don't know which way is up! No pun intended. :)
Don't believe me. Be a Berean, and check it out against the Word of God. Then we can save money on renting out theaters to see unScriptural movies, or hiring body-building "counselors" to "reach" our youth, who supposedly wouldn't otherwise listen to preaching.
Bottom line, Ed, JL, Virgil, Jer, me, everyone - Who's in charge? You, me or God? If God, we need to quit trying to do it OUR way and acting like the world so that God has to be merciful and keep bailing us out. As for me and my house, we will serve the Lord. How about the rest of you? And Ed, if that's too arrogant for you, take it up with Joshua - those are HIS words.
I pray for us all, especially myself -and Ed :).
In Christ,
Kurt
we are all in this together
Amen, Virgil!
Although creeds are handy for summing up one's faith, they do nothing except reveal what one believes (or a group believes) the Bible to teach, not what it actually teaches (i.e., what the prophets and apostles taught).
That being said, I'm all for a "generous creed" that covers the basics. Now the hard part: picking the basics. Anyone want to give it a shot?
Best,
Mike Beidler
Mike Beidler
http://thecreationofanevolutionist.blogspot.com
"That being said, I'm all for a "generous creed" that covers the basics. Now the hard part: picking the basics. Anyone want to give it a shot?"
We are all in this together.
God is love.
Jesus is the savior of the world.
That's a start anyway.
Barry
we are all in this together
I would rather we had NO CREEDS. The Creeds are used as a fallback position by those who are unable to refute scriptural arguments. We've seen that with the Preterist and Partial Preterist debates. They also help maintain a sense of orthodoxy for those Christians to lazy to mine the scriptures. Like a preacher once said, "Don't confuse me with the facts my mind is already made up". How many Christians do you know who've searched the scriptures to see if what we recite in the CREEDS is the truth. It is the truth that will set us free.
Constantine obviously believed, "We need creeds so we know who to hang." The Nicene Creed, the Westminster Confession, and every creed in between has led to bloodshed. On that basis alone, we should repudiate them all for the bloody abominations they are.
JL
Blessings,
JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science
Virgil wrote:
“So the answer is, No, we don't need the creeds. Only weak Christians, and those who are unwilling to study God's word on their own seem to "need" them.”
-----------------------------------------------
It seems that I’m alone on this one, but I think creeds and confessions (and even denominations) can be a very good thing if they’re not abused or used as a pretense for evil against others. Almost every church has a doctrinal statement and most (not all) of them are not using it as a tool to persecute the brethren, but to highlight the beliefs they are not willing to compromise on and exclude from membership those who can’t walk in agreement (it’s hard to walk together unless agreed as Proverbs says, churches should be getting things done as a team). We even see short creedal statements in the Bible. And though it is not written, if we dug deep enough we would even see that Planet Preterist has a creed – if only “Jesus Christ came in 70A.D. according to the Scriptures.” If it weren’t this way it would be called Planet Whatever.
And yes, weak Christians can benefit from a systematic doctrinal statement as well as a longer systematic theology (I personally learned quite a bit from the various creeds when I first came to faith), but again it is their abuse not their use that causes a creedolitrous spirit. Instead of attacking creeds it would be better to attack the idolatrous nature of man that permeates our culture – in and out of the church. The same person who puts the written creed on par with Scripture is the same one who will put the preacher, or the web columnist on par with God’s Word. As always it is a heart problem but we want to treat the symptoms (and what is this “evil” symptom but a few propositional statements about the Christian faith).
Also, creeds were never meant to be exhaustive, so of course if one is not willing to study God’s Word on their own they will never grow enough to be able to discern the truth or error of the creed, but again that is not the creed's fault but the lazy person who will not learn regardless of a creed. And if a pastor uses the creed as a means of targeting others then that is a moral problem, not a creed problem. Let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I commend all of your zeal to want to smash idols (some need their idols smashed), but I would just caution you to remember that the same God who told man not to bow down to any image in the heavens also commanded that images of cherubim etc. be set up in the most holy place.
It’s not the creed, but where, when, and how it is used; as it was once said, “man will worship something,” it is also true that man will have doctrinal beliefs – so let all our churches at least have the common courtesy to write the major ones down so we don’t have to guess.
Humbly,
Erick
Hi Eric
You said,
"It’s not the creed, but where, when, and how it is used; as it was once said, “man will worship something,” it is also true that man will have doctrinal beliefs – so let all our churches at least have the common courtesy to write the major ones down so we don’t have to guess."
I said,
"The only importance that a creed could have is to say, This is where we are at in our thinking at this time as a group of people organizing ourselves to be useful in service to our Creator. If you agree with where we are presently at as an organization then you fit in with our particular approach to what we see as service and servant hood."
Not quite the same but perhaps following the same practicality
Blessings Barry
we are all in this together
Hey Barry, you're right I think we're saying the same basic thing. It's like the saying, "guns don't kill people, people kill people" likewise, "creeds don't keep people in ignorant idolitry, people keep people in ignorant idolitry"
Personally I think a good approach for those churches that want creeds is to have a minimalist creedal requirement for membership and a more detailed one for those seeking leadership positions. Also, a church should have the freedom to change their creed or confession if as a group they recognize the need.
See how we can use anything to bring others to Christ? Who needs creeds, when we can use tarot cards to bring the Gospel?
From page 51 of "RELIGIOUS AND NON-RELIGIOUS SPIRITUALITY IN THE WESTERN WORLD (“New Age”)
Lausanne Occasional Paper No. 45
http://www.lausanne.org/lcwe/assets/LOP45_IG16.pdf
Gospel Message via Tarot Cards
A provocative way of presenting the gospel in New Spirituality festivals is via tarot cards. John Drane, Ross Clifford and Philip Johnson have developed this approach.
Understandably, most Christians will baulk at the idea because tarot cards have occult connections. To properly argue why tarot cards could be used as a device for communicating the gospel would require a lengthy paper. A few basic points may be
summarised, but readers should consult the literature listed below for more details.
Many popular books by New Spirituality seekers and by Christian apologists on the subject of tarot present false historical data about their origins and purpose.
• Tarot cards originated in Renaissance Italy as an ordinary card game known as “Triumphs.”
• The earliest surviving decks have portraits that show figures dressed in late medieval costumes, with the religious symbols of the Church. Many of the cards’ symbols are traceable to illustrated manuscripts of the Book of Revelation.
• Scholars have shown that the tarot cards reflect late medieval society with a threefold symbolic message conveyed by the pictures: “know your place in society,” “practise Christian virtues” and “trust in God.” Some of the tarot characters appear in Cervantes’ Man of La Mancha – Don Quixote.
• Tarot imagery appears to be influenced by church art and Dante’s Inferno.
• The association of tarot cards with fortune telling occurs in nineteenth century France. The appropriation of the cards for divination does not disqualify the history of the cards’ symbols originating from Christian sources — just as the
misuse of the Bible to justify apartheid, slavery, and the heresies of Jehovah’s Witnesses does not invalidate the Bible itself.
At the Mind-Body-Spirit festival, Clifford and Johnson have created an innovative and incarnational method of sharing the gospel through the use of tarot cards. They note, “We always indicate that divination from the cards is clearly contrary to Scripture, but that the classic A. E. Waite deck is full of biblical images.” Ross Clifford briefly explains how in a conversation he pointed a seeker to Christ via the cards:
A conversation began with Sharon, who shared something of her own spiritual journey from fairly normal Catholicism to a commitment to
Wicca. We discussed how upbringing, education, and external spiritual experiences had influenced her views on life and faith. I then shared about the influences that might colour my perceptions. Sharon, during the telling of her story, indicated that she appreciated Jesus, but her understanding of life was centred on reincarnation. She then
briefly outlined some of her concerns about the church. She asked me, “Do you believe in reincarnation?” I said, “I believe in its
understanding that there is more to life than death, but I find the message of the Resurrection more empowering.” I then shared the strand of circumstantial evidence for the Resurrection, based on the testimony of changed lives. She listened to my story and others, including that of the apostle Paul, that linked their transformations to the resurrection of Christ. In the course of this apologetic discourse,
Sharon indicated openness to the holistic character of the Resurrection. Unlike the denial of the body inherent in reincarnation, the resurrection of Jesus encompasses mind, body, and spirit.
At the Community of Hope stall, we were also interacting with tarot readers and devotees. Sharon and I discussed how the cards mimic
archetypes and symbols that reveal our common search for meaning.
She had a real interest in the tarot. I explained that many of the images on the cards are taken from the Bible. The “Lovers” card (Genesis 1 and 2) depicts Adam and Eve before the “Cosmic Mountain” and “Cosmic Tree,” in harmony with themselves, the world and the numinous. The “Devil” card is where we confront the dark lord in
Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings or Star Wars’ Darth Vader or Jung’s Shadow and it shows the same couple now in bondage to the devil, but
still with fruits of the “Cosmic Tree” (image of God), though removed from the “Cosmic Mountain” (God’s presence). The “Death” card shows us that, whether king, pope, or child, we will confront the Grim Reaper and there appears to be no path to the eternal celestial city depicted on the card. The “Judgement” card portrays the archangel blowing the trumpet at the end of time and people rising from their graves in joy and on the pennant connected to the angel’s trumpet is a red cross, which is a universal symbol of hope and healing. I said, ‘Sharon, the image on the card is one of resurrection, not reincarnation.’
The “Magician’s” card is more than the Jungian archetype of the wise man, because above his head is the symbol of infinity, which shows we need help from one beyond us. The dual sign of the wand
in the magician’s hand raised toward heaven and the left hand pointing to the earth, is known as a source of grace drawn from above. The key card is the “Fool” which Campbell and Roberts (authorities on myth and New Spirituality) observe clearly symbolises the dying and resurrected sun god. The “Fool” is also an archetype for the sage or
medieval jester, who is not a “natural” fool but an “artificial” fool, who by his antics disturbs the court of human arrogance and self-interest.
It is by the dying and rising Christ, “Fool,” that one returns to the “Lover’s” paradise. ‘Sharon, this is our universal story.’
After a pause in the conversation there was a short dialogue about the other circumstantial evidence — in particular the fact of the empty
tomb. Sharon quizzed me about the “swoon” theory. She then said, “but the account of the resurrection of Jesus is in your New Testament
Gospels that are really pretty average stuff. Haven’t Barbara Thiering and Bishop Spong basically shown that?” I replied, “Sharon, you are
not meant to ask such a cognitive question.” She laughed. The discourse then turned to the evidence for the Resurrection, including whether it had any historical and legal standing and whether the New
Testament narratives could be trusted. The “stories” (testimonies of the apostles John and Paul) were highlighted. A basic historical —
legal apologetic for reliability of the New Testament accounts of the Resurrection was fully outlined. Sharon was particularly interested in
the role of the women in the Resurrection brief. Her response was to share again something of her own personal hurts and spiritual search.
She asked for prayer for faith and healing and for further information on Jesus. She took a pamphlet that set out a list of recommended churches. Not an atypical apologetic discourse had taken place.
For further discussion see
• Ross Clifford, “Reframing a Traditional Apologetic to Reach ‘New Spirituality’
Seekers,” in Encountering New Religious Movements: A Holistic Evangelical
Approach, edited by Irving Hexham, Stephen Rost and John W. Morehead II,
(Grand Rapids: Kregel, 2004), 193-208.
• John Drane, Ross Clifford and Philip Johnson, Beyond Prediction: The Tarot and
Your Spirituality, (Oxford: Lion, 2001).
we are all in this together