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What is the mark? Well the mark Brian, is the barcode. The ubitiqous barcode that you'll find on every bog roll, and every packet of johnny's and every poxie-pot pie. And every [expletive-removed] barcode is divided into two parts by three markers and those three markers are always represented by the number six. Six-six-six. -- Naked, a movie Directed by Mike Leigh, starring David Thewlis, 1993 |
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by Marcus Booker Sometimes we read and interpret the Scriptures as if it is any common body of literature; we utilize the same rules. The identical grammatical-historical method has applied equally to the exegesis of Homer and of the ancient prophets. If we are to assume, however, that sacred literature is distinct, perhaps those rules are insufficient.
Before continuing, I will briefly be personal. Those who have a vague recollection of my presence here will remember that I abruptly disappeared from this website. As preterists, you will all be thankful to know that it was not the "rapture" that claimed me.
I left calling myself a futurist. What I meant by that self-description was more akin to what you might call a "partial preterist." I elected not, however, to use that term, inasmuch as it would have misled you. Maybe the term "idealist" would be preferable.
My foremost discovery was that there is more to the text than the surface meaning. I would even say, as discomforting as a thought as it may be, that there is more to our faith than what happened to be captured within the scant writings that have survived. [Indeed, if that were not so, then the doings of the majority of the original 12 apostles were of no consequence, not to mention all oral communication]. This view has led me to a greater respect [with caution] for early tradition and practice. Formerly, I read the text apart from any consideration of these primitive interpretations. For this reason, I adopted a modified futurism, acknowledging points of orthodoxy such as the general resurrection.
The apostolic use of prophecy, following after what I have called a midrashic tradition, purposefully goes beyond the plain meaning of the text. It is blatant. Because of this use (or seeming misuse), I cannot relegate the interpretation of the Scriptures to the grammatical-historical method alone. The apostles, for their part, do not. How can I?
The unsettling thought is that the same #1 principle that guides our lives guides our hermeneutic. That principle is uncertainty and grace. I use the two here as two sides to the same coin. I will hereafter refer to it only as grace.
Proper interpretation, like our own salvation, is not something that man can grasp for himself. Just like there are no rules for life (apart from grace) that secure us our salvation, so too do we wholly depend upon God to deliver to us enlightenment concerning the text. In both areas He imparts to us varying measures of grace. Some eyes may, via God's good gift, be more fully opened to the text. Other eyes He does not open.
Because of this inevitable reliance, our certainty about the meaning of the Scriptures must come from God. As in other areas, we may be deluded concerning that very certainty. If God chooses not to give the right interpretation to a man, nobody else will be able to give him that proper interpretation. The right rules mean nothing; they will not help the man. Imagine rules established for Daniel and Joseph for the interpretation of dreams. The only applicable rule was that the interpretation was of the LORD.
I suppose that you could say that the question isn't "how" to interpret the text. There is no "how." The question is "who?" Those who are humble before Him, God will not despise. He will open their eyes. They may not be all-knowing, but they will understand as much as they need to understand. They will be fed.
From those who are of a contrary character [oftentimes the wise, the strong, etc], God will withhold His grace. Indeed, the Scriptures themselves recount praise to God for doing this very thing.
The Preterists, as I have seen, have interpreted the text utilizing the same assumption employed by the Futurists. That assumption is singularity of meaning. In other words, you presume that there is one dimension to the text; a verse may only mean one thing.
While there is a certain convenience and [false] comfort to this method, I don't think that it accounts for #1 the apostles' Midrash, #2 the early teachings of the churches (concerning the resurrection) and #3 the mysterious and jealous character of God.
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Marcus Booker is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com. Marcus comes from a Reformed Presbyterian background. He is a husband, father and U.S. Air Force officer stationed in Minot, ND.
View Marcus Booker archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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Re: Hermeneutics (Score: 1)
by Batman on Tuesday, May 03 @ 20:53:03 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | | " If the Scripture has more than one meaning, it has no meaning at all: " and it is just as applicable to the prophecies as to any other portion of Scripture.' --Dr. John Owen |
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- by large-hammer on Tuesday, May 03 @ 21:05:18 PDT
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- by large-hammer on Wednesday, May 04 @ 16:55:29 PDT
Re: Hermeneutics (Score: 1)
by Virgil on Wednesday, May 04 @ 00:00:55 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | That assumption is singularity of meaning. In other words, you presume that there is one dimension to the text; a verse may only mean one thing.
I don't know what Preterists you are talking about but this Preterist doesn't make any such assumption. |
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- by large-hammer on Wednesday, May 04 @ 11:41:05 PDT
Re: Hermeneutics (Score: 1)
by Sam on Wednesday, May 04 @ 06:01:50 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | I just love this. I have studied the history of interpretation and its current status today within the academia. To admit that Scriptures have "more than one meaning" is to destroy the very foundation of the Bible. There is no certainty in anything, not even "Jesus died for my sins." Paul did not mis-quote any OT text. He quoted them as they were intended by the authors, and within their context. Case in point, "out of Egypt will I call my son." In Mat. 2.15 he quoted Hos. 11.1. Did he mis-quote this? Not at all. Notice Hos. 11.1 "When Israel was a CHILD (singular - corporate), I loved him, and out of Egypt I called him (singular pronoun)." Israel was God's "firstborn son" and God was their "father". It was out of Egypt that he brought his "firstborn" out of, in the midst of death against the "firstborn sons" of Egypt. The same thing is taking place in the New Exodus, which wa foretold by the prophets. Jesus is Israel, God's "firstborn son" and "I am his father." Jesus is Israel incorporated (a familiar Hebrew concept), and Matthew's quote is pregnant with biblical meaning. Jesus is re-enacting the Exodus, and he crosses the Jordan, too (after a period of "forty" in the Wilderness). With a new covenant, there is a change in the Law (as Jeremiah stated), and the status of "firstborn" is transferred over to Jesus, the embodiment of Israel, God's firstborn. In other words, Matthew is alluding to the New Exodus and the fact that Christ is FULFILLING the call given to Israel.
When all else fails, the Futurist must resort to "nobody knows" what the text means, when the meaning is obvious. The problem is created by the TRADITIONS that one thinks he must adopt in order to read the Bible.....Don't blame the texts...blame the traditions.
Samuel Frost |
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Re: Hermeneutics (Score: 1)
by Sam on Wednesday, May 04 @ 06:02:27 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | I just love this. I have studied the history of interpretation and its current status today within the academia. To admit that Scriptures have "more than one meaning" is to destroy the very foundation of the Bible. There is no certainty in anything, not even "Jesus died for my sins." Paul did not mis-quote any OT text. He quoted them as they were intended by the authors, and within their context. Case in point, "out of Egypt will I call my son." In Mat. 2.15 he quoted Hos. 11.1. Did he mis-quote this? Not at all. Notice Hos. 11.1 "When Israel was a CHILD (singular - corporate), I loved him, and out of Egypt I called him (singular pronoun)." Israel was God's "firstborn son" and God was their "father". It was out of Egypt that he brought his "firstborn" out of, in the midst of death against the "firstborn sons" of Egypt. The same thing is taking place in the New Exodus, which wa foretold by the prophets. Jesus is Israel, God's "firstborn son" and "I am his father." Jesus is Israel incorporated (a familiar Hebrew concept), and Matthew's quote is pregnant with biblical meaning. Jesus is re-enacting the Exodus, and he crosses the Jordan, too (after a period of "forty" in the Wilderness). With a new covenant, there is a change in the Law (as Jeremiah stated), and the status of "firstborn" is transferred over to Jesus, the embodiment of Israel, God's firstborn. In other words, Matthew is alluding to the New Exodus and the fact that Christ is FULFILLING the call given to Israel.
When all else fails, the Futurist must resort to "nobody knows" what the text means, when the meaning is obvious. The problem is created by the TRADITIONS that one thinks he must adopt in order to read the Bible.....Don't blame the texts...blame the traditions.
Samuel Frost |
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Re: Hermeneutics (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Wednesday, May 04 @ 09:04:40 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Sorry Eric - this was meant for Large Hammer.
When does "all which was written is fulfilled" really not mean "all which was written was fulfilled" ???
Matt 5: Law and Prophets fulfilled
Luke 21: All which was written fulfilled
Daniel 12: When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.
Come on now.
Mike Bennett |
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Re: Hermeneutics (Score: 1)
by JL (jl@planetpreterist.com) on Wednesday, May 04 @ 10:50:29 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Marcus,
Looks like some people can't help repeating themselves today.
Good to have you back.
I see the Midrash, but I'm not very confortable with the idea of using it. I'm reminded of the "Scriptural" example: "Judas went and hanged himself," Mat. 27:15, "Go and do likewise," Luke 10:37, "Whatever you do, do quickly," John 13:27.
JL |
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- by MichaelB on Wednesday, May 04 @ 11:02:17 PDT
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Re: Hermeneutics (Score: 1)
by Erick on Wednesday, May 04 @ 06:32:07 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | I may be too “wise” “strong” and “deluded” but this just sounds like old fashioned mysticism. The authoritative apostles did not employ mystic interpretations of the Old Testament but typological (big difference). Much of the Old Testament by nature had a “dual-significance” if you want to call it that, but only because it contained shadows and types - the realities being ours in Christ. For example Mt. 2:15 applies Hos. 11:1 to Christ as being its fulfillment (in other words, it has been “filled full” and no more meaning can fit into it). The Apostles do not use such an approach towards other New Testament writings, do they? Why would they?
We might follow the example of the Apostles in discovering legitimate types and shadows in the Old Testament, but that’s a far cry from claiming the Apostles used mystic interpretations of the Old Testament, and therefore we can do so with the New. Let me see if I can put this succinctly: Your argument is self-refuting for you cannot ever REALLY know that the Apostles interpreted your way (assuming you believe you’re humble enough) unless God revealed it to you apart from the meaning of the text – a text that really has no meaning. Your argument is its own refutation.
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- by MichaelB on Wednesday, May 04 @ 09:03:25 PDT
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What about the apostles' hermenutic? (Score: 1)
by Parker on Wednesday, May 04 @ 15:00:38 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | The apostles believed that the scriptures can have more than one meaning. They demonstrated this repeatedly in their handling of OT texts. Matt 2:15/Hosea 11:1-3 has already been mentioned, but there are many other apostolic interpretations that overlay a new typological interpretation upon a text having a different original meaning (e.g., Matt 2:23/Isa 7:14-16). The typological hermeneutic is an open-ended one.
In fact (and this can be terrifying to admit), on a few occasions the apostles use the standard futurist reasoning: "well, we know it didn't fully take place back then as was supposed, THEREFORE the scripture spoke about such and such event in our times." Examples include Hebrews 4:6-8 and Acts 2:29-31. The reasoning displayed in those passages is a major departure from the grammatical-historical method, and is eerily similar to futurist lines of argumentation.
Now, since the apostles were inspired, we can say that they had the right to their interpretation no matter how they arrived at it. Even so, a simple analysis of their interpretive method makes it impossible to rule out the possibility that AD 70 prefigures an additional, future end--and such was understood by the ECFs. |
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- by large-hammer on Wednesday, May 04 @ 17:07:32 PDT
Re: Welcome Back (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Wednesday, May 04 @ 18:06:52 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Marcus,
It is good to see you back.
I think we can all agree that the topic Marcus brings up is a very complex one, to say the least. I would advise everyone here to not hit the send button in your flaming rebuttals too quick on this issue. This particular understanding of the nature of communication in our Scripture is one that deserves careful and thoughtful consideration.
I don't see (as of now) the particular application Marcus makes regarding partial-preterism and a bodily general resurrection that still lies in our future. The Biblical writers were interested in the spiritual application of Scripture, but they also had a high respect for the historical-redemptive flow of things. History with its unique, unrepeatable events was important to the Hebrews and has always been so to Christians. How to balance those two things is where I see the challenge to lie.
However, one thing that I do see valuable about the thoughts Marcus has brought to the table is that the the Scriptures, though fulfilled, are still amazingly relevant and authoritative to us as guidance and explanation to the world in which we live.
My belief is that some Preterists are so fixated on the fulfillment of prophecy and Scripture in general that they come to the simplistic conclusion that all of Scripture is relevant only to the direct audience it was written to. I call this the audience relevance "nuclear option." When Preterists do this, they end in a relativistic nihilism that is, in my opinion, the last step before falling away from the Christian Faith. My view is that Preterism opens up and enhances the Christian Faith rather than nullifying it.
This is not to say that Preterism doesn't change things in how Christians have understood the Bible and proves "traditional" doctrines and practices in the Church. I am one who believes it can be demonstrated exegetically that some traditional practices and doctrines are now obsolete. But that is very different from starting from the a priori assumption that the Bible is only relevant to the 1st century audience.
Thanks Marcus. This is an intriguing topic that has occupied my mind even back before you took your hiatus.
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org |
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Duality & the N.T. (Score: 1)
by Roderick on Wednesday, May 04 @ 20:53:05 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | Marcus,
Good to see you are still out there. :-)
You have broached an important topic, one which is long over due to be addressed, and that is the topic of duality & the N.T..
This concept of dual or multiple meanings is one often imployed by futurists. You are aware how they turn locusts & horses into helicopters and tanks without warrant. How they turn "fig trees" budding into establishment of a nation.
Now, let me say I agree with you that the N.T. writers did indeed take Scripture from the O.T. that has its own context and then overlaid it with another interpretation, thus making it a fulfillment.
But why is that not allowed in the N.T.? Why can't we take N.T. texts and look for an speculate about dualities of meaning?
Because...
1. We are not Christ or the apostles, thus not authorized to speak thus saith the Lord
2. The N.T. by nature IS the final fulfillment, the divine commentary on the O.T.
3. Exactly because such methods are merely SPECULATION
You will not see me often writing articles based soley in the O.T. and how some O.T. passage was fulfilled (such as futurists do when they primarily build their case on Daniel, Ezekiel, and other O.T. books). Not, because I don't hold these texts in high esteem, as it is Scripture, but because I can go no further than the divine commentary of the N.T. -- Christ came to reveal and fulfill. If my conclusions about what a shadow & type O.T. text might say, contradicts Christ's own words, then I will leave my speculation and conclusion behind.
I had recently written a booklet specifically outlining the Eschatology of Jesus Christ which spoke about how the only eschatology that really matters is that outlined by Christ Himself. Our speculations about who were/are the two witnesses?, who was/is the beast?, who was/is the antichrist? and on and on is mere speculation unless clearly revealed within the N.T. itself and especially by Christ Himself.
Christ details the entire workup to the so-called "end times", during His discourse on the Mount of Olives and He did not think it worthy to explain such matters as many often speculate over in the O.T. books, and even in the Book of Revelation. BUT the matters He DID explain are clear and in that I have comfort.
If duality exist in the N.T. then what stops us from saying Christ will be crucified again? Perhaps that first crucifixion was only for the Jews and He has yet to pay the penalty for the rest? On & on it goes.
The only duality is from the O.T. to the N.T. -- the shadow and type to the revelation and fulfillment. What was concealed in the old is revealed in the new.
In Christ risen & returned, once and for all,
Roderick
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- by vinster on Thursday, May 05 @ 06:13:48 PDT
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Re: Hermeneutics (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Thursday, May 05 @ 18:47:48 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | All,
I think Roderick hit one of the problems with partial-preterism that I can't get around, either.
Some partial-preterists split up the actual prophecies of the NT and label them A.D. 70 and worldwide consummation. These particular ones go this direction, these other ones to the that direction.
Marcus is not suggesting a partial-preterism along these lines. Comparison of biblical texts and cross-referencing parallel passages (i.e. Matthew 24 and Luke's rendition of the Olivet) pretty much torpedoes that approach. If I may speak for Marcus here, I think Marcus understands that form of partial preterism has not, can not, and will not ever be a legitimate option.
What Marcus is suggesting (I think) is that all prophecy is fulfilled in a way at A.D. 70. But prophecy BY ITS NATURE is bigger than such a limited use. In other words, when something is fulfilled it teaches us more about the covenant relationship between God and man and those principles are always abiding. In fact, they are fulfilled every time they take place within the lives of God's people. With this point, I am in open agreement with Marcus. Preterism enlarges and enhances the Biblical Christian Faith, it does not nullify it by reducing the gospel (along with all its appendages) to a message only for its 1st century hearers.
Here is where the trouble begins. Marcus has implied that since this is the case, one fulfillment does not mean a terminal fulfillment, there may be a terminal fulfillment of the resurrection and consummation passages. This fulfillment would be in our future. And I will grant that prophecy did work this way in the O.T. to a certain extent.
Now, Roderick mentioned the fact that this leaves open the possibility for Jesus to be crucified again since Jesus cannot be ripped from his historical, covenantal context within the Hebrew nation. He came to his own, but his own did not receive him.
Roderick senses the same problem I do. If the prophecies regarding the "end of days" and "Day of the Lord" and the resurrection can be "duplicated," in some sort of terminal fulfillment still in our future, then the prophecies regarding the Messiah may also (I would argue for consistency sake must also) be applied the same way. The prophetic testimony to the coming Messiah is all mixed up with the very events we are speaking of, particularly in Daniel.
So, if the consummation we read of in the New Testament and witness in the events of A.D. 70 is "a" consummation, then that would imply that the Messiah we read about in the New Testament in fulfillment of prophecy was "a" fulfillment in type of Messiah. We would still await the worldwide, terminal Messiah to come in our future.
Jim Jordan presented much this same view at the conference hosted by Christ Covenant Church and Sam Frost. No one in the recorded Q&A session asked him how the Messianic prophecies would work out along the same lines, leaving Jesus "a" fulfillment of the prophetic word and leaving us to await the final, terminal, worldwide fulfillment of all the Messianic Scriptures to come in our future.
If Jesus is the ultimate, terminal Messiah spoken of by the New Testament, then that consummation would also be the ultimate consummation, that resurrection would be the ultimate resurrection, and so forth.
Here's where I currently stand on this: midrash, yes, but partial-preterism, no.
Any thoughts?
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org |
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- by blackpreterist on Friday, May 06 @ 07:49:56 PDT
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Re: Hermeneutics (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Wednesday, May 11 @ 05:57:24 PDT (User Info | Send a Message) | All,
I thought it was uncharacteristic for Marcus to be absent the discussion resulting from an article he posted. I called him and found out that his wife just delivered their second child a couple of nights ago.
He'll be back when the schedule in the Booker home returns to normal. By the way Marcus and Amy had a girl.
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org |
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- by Mung on Wednesday, May 11 @ 08:27:45 PDT
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