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The Lord also tells me to tell you in the mid-90's, about '94, '95, no later than that, God will destroy the homosexual community of America. [Round of applause] But He will not destroy it with what many minds have thought Him to be. He will destroy it with fire. And many will turn and be saved, and many will rebel and be destroyed.
-- Benny Hinn, Prophecy For The 1990's, This Is Your Day, Orlando Christian Center, January 1, 1990
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News: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections
Posted on Thursday, March 17 @ 07:50:46 PST by Kurt Fietch

Other By Tom Talbott
When I first began interpreting the New Testament along universalist lines, I was struck by how many regarded such an interpretation as not only mistaken, but utterly unreasonable and heretical as well. I found that a good many of my Calvinist friends, who did not regard Arminianism as heretical (only mistaken), and a good many of my Arminian friends, who did not regard Calvinism as heretical (only mistaken), were united in their conviction that universalism is both mistaken and heretical.

This curious response started me thinking. Why should Calvinists regard universalism as any more heretical than Arminianism?--and why should Arminians regard it as any more heretical than Calvinism?

As I reflected upon these questions, I also began to reflect upon the following inconsistent set of propositions:

(1) It is God's redemptive purpose for the world (and therefore his will) to reconcile all sinners to himself;

(2) It is within God's power to achieve his redemptive purpose for the world;

(3) Some sinners will never be reconciled to God, and God will therefore either consign them to a place of eternal punishment, from which there will be no hope of escape, or put them out of existence altogether.

If this is indeed an inconsistent set of propositions, as I believe it is, then at least one of the propositions is false. Calvinists reject proposition (1); Arminians reject proposition (2); and universalists reject proposition (3). But in fact we can also find *prima facie* support in the Bible for each of the three propositions. So one day I sat down and, setting aside disputes over translation and sophisticated theological arguments, began to review the obvious.

In support of proposition (1), one might cite such texts as II Peter 3:9: "The Lord . . . is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance"; I Timothy 2:4: God "desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth"; Romans 11:32: "For God has imprisoned all in disobedience so that he may be merciful to all"; and Ezekiel 33:11: "As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn away from his way and live . . .." All of these texts seem to suggest that God sincerely wants to achieve the reconciliation of all sinners, and that his failure to achieve this end would therefore be, in some important sense, a tragic defeat of one of his purposes.

Similarly, in support of proposition (2), one might cite such texts as Ephesians 1:11: God "accomplishes all things according to the counsel of his own will"; Job 42:2: "I know that thou canst do all things, and that no purpose of thine can be thwarted"; Psalm 115:3: "Our God is in the heavens; he does whatever he pleases"; and Isaiah 46:10b & 11b: "My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose . . . I have spoken, and I will bring it to pass; I have purposed, and I will do it." These texts seem to imply that God is able to accomplish all of his purposes--including, therefore, all of his redemptive purposes. And in addition to these texts, a number of others seem to imply that God has both the will and the power to bring all things into subjection to Christ (I Corinthians 15:27-28), to reconcile all things in Christ (Colossians 1:20), and to bring acquittal and life to all persons through Christ (Romans 5:18).

But finally, in support of proposition (3), one might also cite such texts as Matthew 25:46: "And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life"; II Thessalonians 1:9: "They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might . . ."; and Ephesians 5:5: "Be sure of this, that no immoral or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God." These texts may seem to imply that at least some persons will be lost forever and thus never be reconciled to God.

After a quick review of these texts in my own mind, one point struck me as altogether obvious: Anyone who takes a position with respect to our three propositions--whether the person be a Calvinist, an Arminian, or a universalist--will end up denying a proposition for which there is at least some prima facie biblical support. And in that respect universalism is no different from either Calvinism or Arminianism. So I found myself, at this point, wanting to put several questions to those who would simply dismiss universalism as heretical: If it is not heretical for the Arminians to believe that God, being unlimited in love, at least wills (or sincerely desires) the salvation of all (proposition (1)), why should it be heretical for the universalists to believe this as well?--and if it is not heretical for the Calvinists to believe that God, being almighty, will in the end accomplish all of his redemptive purposes (proposition (2)), why should it be heretical for the universalists to believe this as well? And finally, if it is not heretical to accept proposition (1), as the Arminians do, and not heretical to accept proposition (2), as the Calvinists do, why should it be heretical to accept both (1) and (2)?

Now as a matter of logic, there is a possible answer to this last question. If the biblical warrant for proposition (3), or a doctrine of everlasting separation, were overwhelmingly greater than that for the other two propositions, then one might conclude that only (3) could not reasonably be rejected. But nothing like that seems to be true at all, and here, at least, is how I see the matter. The biblical warrant for proposition (1), that God wills the salvation of all, is simply overwhelming--so overwhelming that those who worry about heresy, as I do not, ought to regard Calvinism, not universalism, as heretical. The biblical warrant for proposition (2), that almighty God will eventually accomplish all of his redemptive purposes, is likewise exceedingly strong, as the Calvinists have always insisted. And proposition (3) is the weakest of the three. For only (3) seems to rest upon controversial *translations* as well as controversial interpretations; and whereas (1) and (2) seem to rest upon systematic teachings in Paul, the texts cited on behalf of (3) are typically lifted from contexts of parable, hyperbole, and great symbolism.

Others will no doubt assess matters differently. But to those who claim, as many do, that everlasting punishment is clearly and unmistakably taught in the New Testament, I would put this question: Which of our other two propositions would you then reject? Would you deny that God wills (or sincerely desires) the salvation of all human beings?--or would you deny that he has the power to accomplish his will in this matter? And finally, why do you believe that the biblical warrant for proposition (3) is stronger than that for propositions (1) and (2)? It is not enough, in other words, merely to cite the standard proof-texts in support of (3). For if (3) is true, then either (1) or (2) is false. To provide a full biblical defense for a doctrine of everlasting punishment, therefore, one must show that the biblical warrant for (3) is stronger than that for (1) or stronger than that for (2)--a daunting task indeed! And I know of no one who has even tried to build any such comparative case as that. So why do so many regard it as heretical to reject a doctrine of everlasting punishment, but not heretical to limit God's love or to limit his power? Which view does more, in the end, to undermine the glory and the majesty of God?

Tom Talbott is a professor of Philosophy at Willamette University in Salem, Oregon.


 
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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Thursday, March 17 @ 09:00:35 PST
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People who believe propostion two (Calvinistic) have BIBLICAL answers / explanations to the VERSES that you mentioned - thats the difference between those who believe proposition two compared to proposition two or three.

2 Peter 3:9:
God is "not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance."

Answer: "any" or "all" of what? Dogs? Chickens? There must be an antecedent to the pronouns. In 3:3-7, Peter is discussing "them" (i.e., unbelievers). In verse 8 he addresses the "beloved." The beloved are those to whom the epistle is addressed, "those who have obtained a like precious faith with us" (1:1). Thus, God is not will willing that any of the beloved should perish. And, since God gets everything He wants, this verse becomes a proof-text for eternal security.

Moreover, the context of this passage is when the end of the world will come (3:7, 10). Peter is teaching that God will wait until "all" have a chance to repent. If "all" refers to everyone who has lived or will live, then the world would never end as new people are being born all the time! But if the reference is to all of God’s people, then the world will end when the last of the elect (a large but finite number) has repented and believed.


1 Timothy 2:3-4:
God desires "all" to be saved.

Answer: "all" (Greek pas) in Scripture does not necessarily mean every person on the face of the earth. (Matthew 3:5, 10:22; John 3:26; Colossians 1:23) Paul uses the word 22 other times in 1 Timothy and in many of these references it does not refer to "all existing examples of" something but rather "all kinds of" something or some other meaning (1 Timothy 1:15, 2:1-2, 6, 8, 11, 3:4, 11, 4:4, 8-10, 15, 5:2, 10, 20, 6:1, 10, 13, 17).

Particularly pertinent is 6:10, "For the love of money is the root of all evil" (KJV). Money was not the "root" of Satan’s rebellion or the Fall of Adam and Eve, or many other sins. However, money is "a root of all kinds of evil" (NKJV; note: There is no definitive article "the" in the Greek).

Similarly "all" in 1 Timothy 2:4 does not refer to every person who has or will live. It refers to all kinds of people as opposed to only Jews (Matthew 13:47; Acts 10:34, 11:18; Revelation 5:9).

Moreover, if God wanted every person to be saved, then everyone would be saved since His will always comes to pass. (Isaiah 55:11; Psalm 33:10, 115:3, 135:6) But the Bible clearly teaches some will be damned (Matthew 25:26; Revelation 20:11-15, 21:8).



Romans 11 must be looked at in light of Romans 9 "I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy". That is how ALL ISRAEL was saved. All Israel are those that have faith - faith is a gift from God.



Ezekiel 33:11: "As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn away from his way and live . . .."

Answer:
Proverbs 16
4The LORD hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil.






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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Thursday, March 17 @ 09:41:14 PST
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PS - it really doesnt matter if people are calling something "heretical" or not. If it is UNBIBLICAL and we are Christians that supposedly LOVE THE TRUTH - then we need to LET IT GO.


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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by jaredcoleman on Thursday, March 17 @ 10:08:27 PST
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Thought provoking article; thank you. Let me offer some thoughts of mine, for what they're worth. I am going to speak of Calvinists, Arminians, and Universalists (and even Open Theists) in broad terms here (forgive me).

The following is a true contradiction:

1) God has purposefully chosen to save everyone.
2) He has the power to save everyone.
3) Not everyone will be (or has been :D) saved.

But no one believes all three of the above. Arminians believe the following:

1) God desires to save everyone, but He purposes to save only some (those who respond to His call).
2) He has the power to save everyone.
3) Not everyone will be (or has been) saved.

There's no contradiction there. Calvinists believe the following:

1) God desires to save everyone, but He purposes to save only some (those to whom He grants faith).
2) He has the power to save everyone.
3) Not everyone will be (or has been) saved.

Again, there's no contradiction there. Universalists believe the following:

1) God has purposefully chosen to save everyone.
2) He has the power to save everyone.
3) He will save (or has saved) everyone.

No contradiction there either. I wonder if Open Theists (or maybe even some Arminians) would say the following(?):

1) God has purposefully chosen to save all that He can.
2) He has the power to save everyone who choses to respond to His call (since He's limited His power in that respect).
3) He will save (or has saved) everyone.

Anyway, I'm sure you see what I'm getting at. I think that your constructed set of propositions glosses over the nuances of difference between the various positions. There is no single set of propositions which can be used to demonstrate the differences between the various groups.

All or none of the propositions/positions may be biblical, and you are right to say that all of them have prima facie evidence in their support. That is the true dilemma.


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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Thursday, March 17 @ 11:34:44 PST
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Virgil,

What is the definition of an ATONEMENT /PROPITIATION? ...or better yet

What is the definition of PREDESTINATION?

Whether you say that God Predestined people because of NOTHING they have done (Calvinist) or that He somehow "looked thru the corridor of time" (Arminian) you are still left with having to explain some form of doctrine of PREDESTINATION.

So what is it? Did he PREDESTINE EVERYONE to eternal life? Or some?

If EVERYONE - then Universalism is true - which means that nobody "departed into the lake" - is that biblical? No.

So this leaves the Arminian having to explain what predestination is. And you can't say that he somehow wanted to save EVERYONE if he didn't PREDESTINED everyone.

I don't see why you guys can't see this.

Mike Bennett




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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Thursday, March 17 @ 13:11:47 PST
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Virgil writes: I already dealt with all this...I won't do it again. Read my columns on Calvinism. The first-century believers were "the elect", the "first-fruits" of the harvest. They were the ones "predestined" not people living today, far removed from the context of the first century Church.

So Virgil - were they (the first century church) PREDESTINED? YES OR NO

Was the atonement for EVEN THOSE WHO WERE NOT PREDESTINED in the first century?

Jacob I loved Esau I hated - SO THAT THE PURPOSE OF ELECTION MIGHT STAND - were they part of the first century church?

Virgil you are committing a categorical error. Just because the first century church was called "predestined", this does not exclude the fact that others (like Jacob and Esau) were as well.

I am not asking about today. The subject was the "all" scriptures in the NT.

Please answer these question Virgil.

Thanks,

Mike Bennett





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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Thursday, March 17 @ 13:17:03 PST
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In Other words Virgil - you believe that there was a group predestined in the first century.

So in light of this first century predestination...

Were there others in the first century that were not predestined?

If yes, then the "ALL" verses written to the first century church were, in context, to all that believe (Christians) - not all men ever born in the first century.



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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Thursday, March 17 @ 13:40:53 PST
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Ok - but Virgil - were the verses spoken of in this article written to that first century church. If yes - then what I am saying - is correct - when the verses say "all" in light of predestination - its not speaking to all universal.

That is all I was getting at. Whether God has changed his methods after 70 AD - that is another subject. Maybe we can discuss that another time.



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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Thursday, March 17 @ 14:29:44 PST
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Virgil - was faith / belief a gift? Phil 1:29, Acts 13:48, Eph 2?


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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by davecollins on Thursday, March 17 @ 14:47:09 PST
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The New Covenant bears fruit from within, as evidence of God's grace in a person's life. Our job is to share the love and life of Jesus and allow the Holy Spirit provide the power to create New Creations as He will.

Our Father is not confused or conflicted. May He receive all the Glory as His purposes are realized in His children.

This is life eternal, that they may know thee that only very God, and whom thou hast sent Jesus Christ.


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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by davo on Thursday, March 17 @ 16:03:44 PST
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Look at it this Michael: the "all" related specifically to the first-fruit saints i.e., those predestined. Those responding in faith joined Christ's mission and were the ones that in following together with Him were His Body; they pathed the way for ALL HISTORIC ISRAEL to be delivered [saved] from the offence of sin that was against them.

In the outworking of this, those of that generation Jew/Gentile who likewise in faith believed the "message", having changed their minds [repented] about the forth coming judgment that Jesus said was coming on the whole Land, were likewise delivered [saved] from Israel's Lake of Fire – the destruction of the land, but in particular, Jerusalem.

Thus it was NOT God's will that any of them should perish, but turn and believe Jesus i.e., repent of unbelief and believe his words and get out of the way of the coming Romans – as well as those specifically in Jerusalem being affected by the Jewish civil war. This likewise was Paul's yearning that "some might be saved" [delivered].

Paul's "All Israel" WAS all historic Israel – not just those that believed. Yes some were enemies of the "message" yet they were still loved of God.

Those that God had no regard for [hated – not elected], were so, not in relation to eternal destinies of heaven/hell, but rather in relation to being elected for the outworking of His redemptive plan – a plan that in resurrecting all Israel in the Parousia brought about the reconciliation-redemption of "all" humanity – Immanuel, always God's intent. Israel was God's microcosm on behalf of His macrocosm – humanity.

Being saved "then", as it is now, is from toxicity – "then" it was from the old covenant, today it is from whatever hampers effective fellowship with Him. "Salvation" was/is about service – being saved to serve, not about eternal destinies. The Cross-Parousia event secured humanity's destiny in reconciling and redeeming all humanity in the last Adam. Thus He had mercy on all. IOW, Israel was the means to the end – the redemption of the wider world Gen 12:3.

The "eternal punishment" the gospels speak of was the totality of Judgment that would befall the Mosaic regime that was ending – those that clung to it perished in it – but it was not His desire that any be lost [die], but rather, come to a knowledge of the truth i.e., believe the "message". Believing the message had/has great recompense of reward – for in believing in Christ the assurance of heart led/leads one to worship God i.e., experience relationship with Him – and that is the crux of "eternal life" [totality of life in life], not "going to heaven when you die" but a vital relationship with God in Christ Jn 17:3 in this life.

Broadly speaking:

"Predestination" passages relate to those who's destiny it was to minister Christ's reconciling redemption on behalf of their brethren – the Gentiles were brought into this. The "mercy" or "hardening" again was in relation to that redemptive purpose, not post mortem position. If God chose the likes of Pharaoh, Cyrus or Judas et al – in seemingly negatively circumstances, who are we to quibble – He chooses as He wills, but temporal destruction does not equate to endless or complete separation from God post death, based on supposed "requirements" as having being met, or not met.

Again, "election" passages relate to those specifically called into His Divine plan of redemption, not for the position of Heaven, but for the purpose of outworking His grace.

From the human perspective: "salvation of all" passages relate to the deliverance from temporal judgment in that day, often such deliverance involved faith.

Redemption is sin "orientated" in that Christ comprehensively reconciled man back to God, from sin's offence, through the Cross-Parousia event – this being outworked through Israel to the wider world.
Read the rest of this comment...


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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by Ed on Thursday, March 17 @ 16:28:56 PST
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As I've said before, fulfilled eschatology must be our starting point in all this discussion. Do we as full preterists believe that ALL scripture has been fulfilled? Really, you do? Honestly, without reservation? Then look at this scripture that has been fulfilled, "the last enemy to be destroyed is death." Is that fulfilled? Then death has been destroyed. Period.

Another point is this - does Revelation speak of the destruction of Jerusalem, or does it not? Does it speak of all of church history, as the historist believes? Or does it believe that it speaks of a time in our future, as the futurist believes? Well, if Revelation speaks of the destruction of Jerusalem, why would the Lake of Fire not be attributed to that event as well?

One last thing: Hell is NOT a walled city. There is nothing in scripture that speaks of HELL as a walled city. Jerusalem, yes! Hell, NO! So what does it mean that the gates of HADES would not prevail against the church? Well, as we know FROM SCRIPTURE, Hades was the place of the departed souls - i.e., the place where the dead lived. But the church was made up of LIVING souls, being resurrected through baptism into the New Covenant, that was about to burst on the scene in its consummative sense. When that resurrection occurred (as we full preterists believe), HADES gates were KICKED DOWN by those who had risen from the dead. IF the gates of Hades were kicked down, IF Jesus held the keys to HADES AND DEATH, then WHO IS STILL IN HADES? WHO STILL GOES THERE? NO ONE. Because, as in Adam ALL died, so in Christ ALL (were) made alive (remember, all scripture has been fulfilled).

In addition, the scriptures say, "Love your enemies", and that by doing this, you will be like your Father in heaven. "Ed, are you trying to say that God loves his enemies?" Yes, I am. And who would send those he loves to be tormented forever? At the worst, he might destroy them, but since the rest of scripture tells us more, I reject that as well.

But alas, I know that this post will go ignored. The arguments will continue, ignoring the implications of your theology. Why don't you guys get honest like Marcus Booker did? He finally, in rejecting Infinite Grace, rejected fulfilled eschatology. It is the ONLY choice if you believe that the scriptures are fulfilled.

Arminianism and Calvinism both LIMIT God. Infinite Grace is the ONLY view that exalts God above all things. Redemption was HIS WORK, not ours. HE DID IT! And that's what ticks you guys off - that God would have mercy on all (instead of me showing you in scripture, why don't you look up the verse that says that, eh? That God had mercy on ALL).


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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by Parker on Thursday, March 17 @ 17:25:54 PST
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This article is a perfect demonstration of the problems of proof texting. The real question is, did any of the apostles or Christ ACT as if they were universalists? The answer is plainly no.

In the mind of the apostles and Christ, salvation had to do with initiation into the New Covenant body of Christ and participation in its religion and teachings. Thus, the baptized were in covenant, the unbaptized were outside the covenant. The baptized were being saved, the unbaptized were lost in darkness. Furthermore, salvation from sin had to do with the actual, existential removal of sinfulness of human beings (not just a mere sentiment of it or wish for it).

No one could ever examine the lives and practices of the apostles and conclude that they were universalists. Never. Therefore, Universalism is an obvious heresy.


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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by SuperSoulFighter on Thursday, March 17 @ 23:32:56 PST
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I appreciated Tom's article as an attempt to reconcile the "warring factions" of Calvinism, Arminianism and Universalism.

The error he makes, unfortunately, in seeking to simplify and critique these views, is that he permits "proof-texting" without due care and attention paid to the context and language in each and every case. A case can be made for virtually ANY soteriological model on that basis.

For example, 2Peter 3:9 is cited in support of proposition 1. Let's take a very brief peek at the text within its context.

3 knowing this first: that scoffers will come in the last days, walking according to their own lusts, 4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they were from the beginning of creation." 5 For this they willfully forget: that by the word of God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of water and in the water, 6 by which the world that then existed perished, being flooded with water. 7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.

8 But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.


Note the language employed by the "scoffers" in v.4. The JEWS spoke in those terms. Peter had the First Century JEWS in mind when he wrote these things. In v.9, he speaks of God's longsuffering towards THEM (i.e. the Jewish Christians), and that He was not willing that "any" (Jews) should perish but that "all" (Jews/Israelites of the pre-AD 70 First Century period of history, alive at the time Peter wrote these things) "should come to repentance". When texts such as these are ripped out of their TRUE, original context - the resultant interpretation is disastrously erroneous.

In the midst of weighing various views and positions, we need to keep the Word of God front and center - and maintain a strong awareness of the CONTEXT, in EVERY case.

JM


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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Friday, March 18 @ 10:42:36 PST
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Virgil - I ideas on theology mean nothing if they are not based on scripture. That's all I am saying. It is no suprise to me that you, along with your buddies, are offended that someone may actually ask for SCRIPURAL backing when it comes to your THEOLOGICAL ideas...what a concept.


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To the Arminian and Universalist (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Friday, March 18 @ 18:16:46 PST
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Who were the chosen / predestined? Only first century saints?

Who was written in the book of life? Only first century saints?

When was the book written? Was it before the foundation of the world? When was that?

If there was a group that was chosen before the foundation of the world, why would the atonement be universal?

What happened if you were not in the book of life? Did you go into the lake of fire? Is the lake of fire the 2nd death? What does 2nd death mean? Does that mean you are in covenant with God still?

Daniel 12
1And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

Romans 8
28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[a] who[b] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.


1 Peter 1
19But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot: 20Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

Ephesians 1
4According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: 5Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, 6To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. 7In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

Rev 17
8The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.


Revelation 21
12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. 15And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Mike Bennett



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Book of Life (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Friday, March 18 @ 13:05:54 PST
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Hey Davo - who were those written of in the book of life? When were they written in the book? Was it just first century saints? If you were not in the book where did you go?

Looking forward to your responses.

Mike Bennett


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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Friday, March 25 @ 12:04:43 PST
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If: The context of "all in all" is the giving of the inheritance...

Ephesians 1
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

And: There was a group that would NEVER receive the inheritance...

Galatians 4
30But what does the Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son.” 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

Then: "all in all" and the "all" verses do not mean what Universalists think that they mean and universalism is impossible.

Mike Bennett



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Re: Universalism, Calvinism, and Arminianism: Some preliminary reflections (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Monday, March 28 @ 09:43:39 PST
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If: The context of "all in all" is the giving of the inheritance...

Ephesians 1
11In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:

22And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church, 23Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

And: There was a group that would NEVER receive the inheritance...

Galatians 4
30But what does the Scripture say? “Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son.” 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

Then: "all in all" and the "all" verses do not mean what Universalists think that they mean and universalism is impossible.

Mike Bennett




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