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"In the 38th chapter of Ezekiel, it says that the land of Israel will come under attack by the armies of the ungodly nations, and it says that Lybia will be among them. Do you understand the significance of that? Lybia has now gone communist, and that's a sign that the day of Armageddon isn't far off."
-- Ronald Reagan
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Exclusive: When truth hurts: the death and rebirth of Preterism?
Posted on Tuesday, March 15 @ 12:31:18 PST by Virgil Vaduva |
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by Virgil Vaduva
I have received quite a few notes and comments from various individuals concerning the recently posted Magic Quadrant of Preterism, and I wanted to respond with some of my own comments and feelings about this matter.
1. It seems to me that most Preterists have a hard time taking any criticism at all. This will not help the movement improve by any means. Suck it up, or take the advice from others if you truly want to improve the quality of the message.
2. Concerning Tim King. I will stand up for that man any day, anywhere. If any other Preterist has gone to the same great lengths that Tim did to promote the message of Covenant Eschatology, and sacrificed the same amount of personal freedom and comfort then you perhaps begin have the right to criticize him. No other man or group within Preterism has reached out to so many as Tim did. The future of Preterism doesn't hinge on building a bigger box labeled "Preterism" but on tearing down the box and reaching the world. Think small and you'll do small things. Think big, and you'll accomplish the impossible. So far, I am not sure if I can name 3 or 4 people that think big in the Preterist world. Tim King is one of them. Our dreams are out limits, and Tim's vision of Preterism has no limits.
3. Concerning Gary DeMar. Criticising Gary with any chance you get will not help him move towards full-preterism any quicker. Of all people, those who throw the first stone should understand where they came from themselves. Full Preterists have a wonderful friend in Gary DeMar. Keep soiling his name and all the benefits of that friendship will soon disappear.
4. Concerning PlanetPreterist. A friend who will rename unnamed recently sent me an email emphasizing the importance of having a solid vision and execution of that vision – which is why motivating people visually is so important to me to begin with. None of that matters however without a solid support base (be it financial or moral). I would have to strain myself to name more than 4 or 5 people that solidly support PlanetPreterist financially and morally. To quote from this person: "Too many people come and dump on PlanetPreterist and leverage your work, your money, your drive, your effort and they leave nothing in return--except in many cases they leave poor scholarship that drags down the rest of your effort." How true that is. It's so easy to come here and criticize everyone and everything that happens without ever giving one ounce of support and encouragement. We forget that behind words and pages are people that put serious effort into what is happening.
I also got an email from Joe Farah from WorldNetDaily, during a recent exchange with him. He told me "My problem with preterists is that they always want to attack other theological positions." Way to go “preterists!” That is some way to impress the editor of the largest online news organization! He doesn't even have a theological problem with Preterism. He simply cannot relate to people with that attitude. How then can we expect WorldNetDaily to ever have a Preterist author on its payroll?
If you folks want to continue to be perceived as judgmental trouble-makers, arrogant, know-it-all, always-on-the-attack annoyances, instead of serious scholars that deserve and have respect, have at it. As for myself, I do not want to be under any “Preterist banner” that continues to promote separatism and continues to draw lines in the sand. Perhaps it is time for the "old timers" to step down and let the new generation take the stage for a change. Or a better idea yet: perhaps we should storm the stage ourselves and reclaim the message of Preterism for what it truly is: a message of love, compassion, understanding and unity.
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Virgil Vaduva is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com.
View Virgil Vaduva archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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Re: When truth hurts: the death and rebirth of Preterism? (Score: 1)
 by MiddleKnowledge on Tuesday, March 15 @ 13:09:27 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Thanks, Virgil.
I am in general agreement with your comments and have experienced much of the same disappointments in my own way. You hit the nail on the head with your statement "Too many people come and dump on PlanetPreterist and leverage your work, your money, your drive, your effort and they leave nothing in return--except in many cases they leave poor scholarship that drags down the rest of your effort" That is a powerful statement and a profound observation to me.
I hope my presence on this forum has been a positive one for others even amidst the various disagreements. I do believe that sloppy thinking and slip-shod scholarship is a humongous drain on preterism within the wider Christian world at this point.
I believe preterism at this time is truly in its infancy. I had a friend tell me a couple of days ago that when dispensationalism was born in the 1800's there were many wild and extreme fights and huge variations in views within early dispensationalism. Most of them went away after some time and dispensationalism congealed to take American Christianity by storm in the mid-20th century. I wouldn't be surprised if the same thing happens with the preterist paradigm. And there will probably always be debates within preterism. I don't think anyone can figure out a way around that. Love, compassion, understanding and unity will only be productive within a biblical context. The problem is, at root, what is that biblical context?
I do appreciate your efforts here.
Kudos,
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org |
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- by Virgil on Tuesday, March 15 @ 16:37:31 PST
Re: When truth hurts: the death and rebirth of Preterism? (Score: 1)
by Writerx on Tuesday, March 15 @ 14:13:59 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Just a couple of quick thoughts.
I appreciate much of what you said here, first off, but the last few paragraphs I am not so certain I agree with for a number of reasons.
1) Arrogance. As soon as you enter into a discussion with the mindset of Preterism, which naturally undermines a very dominant and commonly accepted theory of the Return, you are going to be labelled as arrogant, conceited, what have you. The very fact that we have the AUDACITY to confidently profess a so-called "heresy" and tear through futurist paradigms with relative Scriptural ease paints an ugly picture of our position. When you look through the eyes of a futurist, you're going to see an aggressor no matter the intent.
2.) If you sit at home and read your Bible and browse planetpreterist all day, you're not going to be able to assert your position. In order to even engage in a light, simple discussion on Preterism you have to ram yourself against a futurist's paradigm...and it hurts. It always hurts. Which basically means that no matter how you come about it, you ARE the aggressor. Period. You can speak nicely, you can smile a lot, you can say to the other person that you understand where they are coming from; but all in all you are on the attack.
3.) I agree with your final sentence whole-heartedly. There shouldn't be such bitterness surrounding this issue, but given the nature of what we're dealing with, what else do you expect? If I came over to your house, kicked down the door and said: "America is a slaveyard where freedom is suppressed and the minorities are ignored," and proceeded to burn a flag on your livingroom rug, you'd take issue with that. Saying that Christ's Return is waaay back some 2,000 years ago is very similar. It shocks, it awes, it angers. The results are not always "love, compassion, understanding and unity."
It seems everyone has an angry reaction to this doctrine, so we can't shovel all the blame on Preterists, even if they DO often get over-zealous.
-A.J. |
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- by Virgil on Tuesday, March 15 @ 16:39:53 PST
- by Writerx on Tuesday, March 15 @ 17:10:06 PST
- by leslie on Wednesday, March 16 @ 09:51:35 PST
- by Virgil on Wednesday, March 16 @ 10:12:56 PST
- by leslie on Wednesday, March 16 @ 10:44:50 PST
Re: When truth hurts: the death and rebirth of Preterism? (Score: 1)
by SuperSoulFighter on Tuesday, March 15 @ 22:39:29 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Good thoughts, Virgil, and important considerations for us at this time!
I'm trying to correlate your final comments, though, with your article not so long ago introducing the possibility that those who do not subscribe to the Full Preterist paradigm (or, more accurately, those RESISTANT to it when introduced to it) may NOT be participants in the New Covenant relationship with God and His eternal Kingdom. I think you're trying to balance a very charitable, gracious, benevolent attitude of acceptance of others (which is important and beneficial) with the need to discern between truth and error - and steadfastly maintain the "lines in stone" (not "sand") that differentiate between all of the false paradigms, and ours.
This is the problem with Tim King's Presence Ministries focus. They are, essentially, Universalists (unapologetically) and promote acceptance of all "cultural, ethnic (and, inevitably, religious) distinctives" in what amounts to a sweeping ecumenism imperilling the superiority of God's Truth as revealed in His Word. The fact that Full Preterist Christianity is superior to every other form of Christianity or expression of faith in God should not prompt us to denigrate our faith as a token of "humility" (or what is, essentially, FALSE humility, since it seeks to downgrade the reality and truth of the situation).
When you consider the possibility that all of humanity was automatically reconciled to God through the death of Christ, etc. and the completion of the redemption of His People in 70 AD - do you have, by any chance, John 12:32 in mind, Virgil? Just curious. I'm not sure if the thinking and beliefs of Presence Ministries is currently impacting your own beliefs to a greater degree than they used to - but I'd be interested in the Scriptural support for the ecumenical, "Universalist" ideas you seem to be entertaining to some degree at this time.
No judgments from me, Virgil. I'm strictly asking out of sincere interest and curiousity!
Thanks.
John |
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- by Virgil on Wednesday, March 16 @ 05:58:43 PST
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- by Virgil on Wednesday, March 16 @ 09:06:50 PST
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Re: When truth hurts: the death and rebirth of Preterism? (Score: 1)
 by jaredcoleman on Wednesday, March 16 @ 05:58:53 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | | How right you are. |
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