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There is demonic activity and oppression in the physical body. If you have suffered with chronic sickness for years or you have hereditary illness in your body, it's the work of demons.
-- Marilyn Hickey Show, October 1, 1998
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by John McPherson
Foundational to our understanding of the Word of God – and God Himself – are our perceptions of the characteristics of His knowledge and understanding. As we consider the planet and its ecosystems, as well as our galaxy and the vast universe beyond it – we cannot help but view the Creator/Designer’s knowledge as being infinite. Surely there can be no limits and/or boundaries to the thoughts and understanding of any Being capable of bringing into existence all of this physical reality.
Beginning in the Book of Genesis, however, a very different picture of God's cognitive awareness and possession of information at any given point in time emerges. God makes it very plain that He does NOT have full, comprehensive knowledge of the present OR the future – where man is concerned, anyway. We read in Gen. 2:19,20 the following: 19 Out of the ground the Lord God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the air, and brought them to Adam to see what he would call them. And whatever Adam called each living creature, that was its name. 20 So Adam gave names to all cattle, to the birds of the air, and to every beast of the field. But for Adam there was not found a helper comparable to him. Two things stand out very clearly in these verses. First of all, God clearly enjoyed introducing the animals to Adam, His curiousity concerning what Adam would name each animal prompting Him to leave the naming to the man He had just made. The point is – God didn’t “foreknow” WHAT names Adam would give to these creatures. This was a legitimate “point of discovery” for God, and something to be enjoyed between Himself and the man. Likewise, God enjoyed a FURTHER “point of discovery” when it became apparent that none of the beasts would make a suitable mate for the man. This was an EXPERIMENTAL effort also!! God introduced Adam to the creatures to see if he had any particular affinity for any of them as a peer life-partner and friend. Apparently, such was not the case. So God created another being similar to man – a co-equal life-partner and mate - the woman named Eve.
There are other evidences of God’s knowledge limitations throughout the early chapters of Genesis, including His disappointment and expressed regret over creating man, in Gen. 6:6,7, 6 And the Lord was sorry that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. 7 So the Lord said, "I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth, both man and beast, creeping thing and birds of the air, for I am sorry that I have made them." The only reason for being “sorry” or experiencing regret, is that an unforeseen (or unhoped-for possibility) had come to pass. Clearly, God had no, specific foreknowledge of the extent of the degradation and wickedness to which man would descend, prompting Him to annihilate this race of men.
In Gen. 18:20,21 God again clearly states that His knowledge of the very nature and extent of the wickedness of specific men (or groups of people) is unknown to Him apart from PERSONAL INVESTIGATION of the matter on His part. In the case of Sodom and Gomorrah, it had been reported to Him that these people were degraded to the point that the only appropriate course of action was to destroy them completely. God went down to those cities to ascertain for Himself whether these reports were true. Of course, it should be apparent that it is the ANGELS who report to God concerning the affairs of men.
20 And the Lord said, "Because the outcry against Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grave, 21 I will go down now and see whether they have done altogether according to the outcry against it that has come to Me; and if not, I will know."
God’s full knowledge of the wickedness of these cities was FUTURE to His conversation and lunch with Abraham. This is what He, Himself, declared to be the case.
When Abraham was instructed to sacrifice Isaac on the altar, he followed through on God’s command to the letter, until the angel stayed his hand with this message direct from God Himself, “11 But the Angel of the Lord called to him from heaven and said, "Abraham, Abraham!" So he said, "Here I am." 12 And He said, "Do not lay your hand on the lad, or do anything to him; for NOW I know that you fear God, since you have not withheld your son, your only son, from Me." (Gen. 22:11,12) Again, God used a TEST to determine the nature of Abraham’s heart and mind, and His trust in God. Abraham’s faith was borne out in his actions, and THEN God had the information necessary to go to the next level in His relationship with Abraham.
King David, in his Psalms extolling God in terms of His attributes and characteristics had some interesting things to say concerning God’s knowledge. In Psalm 139:1-5 we read the following:
1 For the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. O Lord, You have searched me and known me. 2 You know my sitting down and my rising up; You understand my thought afar off. 3 You comprehend my path and my lying down, And are acquainted with all my ways. 4 For there is not a word on my tongue, But behold, O Lord, You know it altogether. 5 You have hedged me behind and before, And laid Your hand upon me. 6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain it.
First of all, it is significant to note that David was under the Holy-Spirit-inspired impression that God’s knowledge was based on investigation of him as a person. “You have searched me and known me” is his very clear statement here. Too often, exegetes and theologians have focused on the extent of God’s knowledge of David, here, without giving due attention to the BASIS for that knowledge (i.e. its source). Far from indicating a pre-existing knowledge of David on God’s part, we are here presented with the reality that God is required to RESEARCH those with whom He desires to have a more intimate, personal acquaintance.
David goes on to acknowledge that “Such knowledge is too wonderful for me; It is high, I cannot attain it.” To be perfectly honest, for David the shepherd-King, whose background was that of a herder in a rather primitive, agricultural society – God’s data-management abilities were undoubtedly overwhelming for him to contemplate. I have no doubt, however, that David would respond IN THE SAME WAY if he were to consider OUR information technologies today, and the means we use to collect and manipulate knowledge.
At the end of the chapter, David invites God's FURTHER investigation of him to gain even MORE DETAILED information, thereby providing God with the necessary data to even more effectively guide David in his development spiritually and in his relationship with God. 23 "Search me, O God, and know my heart; Try me, and know my anxieties; 24 And see if there is any wicked way in me, And lead me in the way everlasting." (Psalm 139:23,24)
In effect, it is not beyond the bounds of reason and interpretive accuracy to state that God revealed Himself (through David and other inspired writers of Scripture) as “The Great Scientist”. He loved (and undoubtedly STILL loves) discovery, Himself. He loves surprises. We are created in His image. It is hardly surprising that we, the created beings, share a similar enjoyment of newfound ideas, ways and means of accomplishing tasks more easily and efficiently, etc. The great difference between God and man lies in two, distinct intellectual (and spiritual) qualities. The first is that God’s knowledge has always been (and will undoubtedly always BE) thousands of years (light years even) ahead of man’s and superior to our best technologies. We are likely just beginning to discover things that God has known and developed for His own purposes many millennia ago. Secondly, God is perfect in wisdom and understanding, when it comes to the application of His knowledge. He is perfectly, consistently benevolent in His management and usage of the data at His disposal, and exemplifies perfectly (flawlessly) how to wisely and righteously administer the ecosystems of this planet and its populations. His wisdom and understanding are most perfectly and clearly displayed in His rule over His own Covenant People. The citizens of His Kingdom are His particular concern, and are carefully researched in order for God to have full access to all information on each individual within His eternal Covenant Nation. Outside of His Kingdom, God’s knowledge of individuals is much more limited, and always will be, as His primary concern is the well-fare and well-being of those who are His, thus prompting those who are not in Covenant relationship with Him to consider the advantages of surrendering to His faithful, gracious care.
Most people get rather uncomfortable at the suggestion that God may be limited in some way, and is really more of a divine Scientist and researcher, than a cosmic “puppet master”. These same people would prefer to deny that God could possibly have any interest in enjoying discovery with man. The delight of the “point of discovery” should not be God’s, according to their thinking. God should have exclusively comprehensive knowledge of all that has ever been or ever WILL be. Only such a God is worthy of our worship according to this line of reasoning. MY contention, however, is that a “transcendent”, infinite God with no limitations or boundaries to His consciousness, awareness, and KNOWLEDGE would be incapable of true relationship with finite man. Finite beings would simply be swallowed up in such a “consciousness” which ultimately would have no real parallel to a true “consciousness” as we understand the term. In fact, a “transcendent” God is one lacking true Personality (like the Islamic God, Allah or the Hindu oblivion known as “Nirvana”).
For further evidence of God’s reliance upon investigation in order to acquire knowledge, let us consider His own statement, in Jeremiah 17:9,10, 9 "The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it? 10 I, the Lord, search the heart, I test the mind, Even to give every man according to his ways, According to the fruit of his doings.” GOD HIMSELF declares in no uncertain terms that it is necessary for Him to search the heart and test the mind in order to determine for himself the true nature and state of an individual’s personality, mindset, and responsiveness to Him and His Will.
God specifically investigates those who are His own, special People – His Covenant People by faith. This is particularly evident in His statement to the Law-lovers who sought to bring about their own salvation through devotion to Law-keeping and Law-worship. 21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23 And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!' Regardless of the nature of the knowledge God was clearly declaring that He lacked, here – the fact remains that He very openly and forthrightly (and unequivocally) states that He lacked knowledge of these people. Even if He is only referring to more personal, specific knowledge (i.e. the kind He acquires through personal investigation of those who are His), this is STILL a declaration of a knowledge limitation in some form by God Himself.
Consistently, throughout the Scriptures, we find God relying heavily on information reported to Him by the angels (who are His “eyes”, roaming through the earth, and His “ministers” sent forth to minister to the saints on His behalf). We also find God reliant upon experimentation and testing to determine the true nature of an individual’s heart and mind and the extent of that person’s trust in Him. A divine Being with infinite, unlimited knowledge in every area, and with no chronological parameters to His possession of information (i.e. a “god” who possessed all knowledge of all that would ever occur and all who would ever live in His physical creation from eternity past), would NOT be reliant upon these methods to understand and acquaint Himself with those closest to Him.
There are a couple of other considerations I would like to present in closing, here. If God really knew EVERYTHING that would ever occur in human history (i.e. ALL was “predestined” and “predetermined” before the creation of man on this planet), then why do the Scriptures make such a big deal of the whole “predestination/election” thing? What’s so significant about something that is a universally established principle that is a part of the very fiber and fabric of everyone’s existence and reality? This is a serious, philosophical (and exegetical) flaw in the case for God’s supposed “omniscience”. The Scriptures contain many passages emphasizing the unique process of "election" and "predestination" associated with certain, unique people - and groups of people - in Israel's limited history. God had a comprehensive "foreknowledge" exclusive to THAT "world" and history - particularly of the "elect", which was never universal in scope. The last of the "elect" passed from this planet in 70 AD, at the Marriage Supper of the Lamb. At that time, God's "predestination/election" process came to an end, as did "prophecy" (that practiced by the Biblical prophets according to the promptings and inspiration of the Holy Spirit). This is why much of the Bible seems to imply "omniscience" where God's knowledge is concerned, while in reality, it only demonstrates the fact that God blueprinted the entire history of Israel from beginning to end, at its inception. He brought it to completion, through His manipulation of events and people throughout the history of the Old Covenant Nation. That "work" of election/predestination was brought to a conclusion at the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple. God had redeemed an "elect" People unto Himself, and there was no longer a temporal, physical "world" and "race" from within which He had to specifically choose certain individuals to respond favorably to Him.
Finally, we need to consider this aspect of God's situation: If God had predetermined all that would ever occur in history, He would have painted Himself into a volitional corner. He would have no option but to mindlessly respond to every predetermined action of man, according to the unchanging dictates of His immutable Character. He would essentially be no more than an automaton Himself, carrying out all of His pre-established Will with no other option than to bring it to completion according to the detailed, prelegislated schema laid out in eternity past. This would be an extremely foolish action on God’s part, of course. By no means would He consider creating a planet and race of intelligent, self-conscious beings with no, legitimate ability to inter-relate with them according to the continually changing circumstances and outcomes of the decisions and activities of those beings. The God of the Bible loves man’s creativity and intelligence, both of which have their source in Him. To fully appreciate and enter into enjoyment of those aspects of man’s being, God has chosen to limit His own knowledge of the future of individuals and Nations on this planet. One generation comes, another goes, one civilization rises, another falls. God’s Kingdom stands immovable, and God’s creation remains – eternally. God is both outside of His creation AND intrinsically, actively involved with its sustenance on a daily, continuous basis.
In conclusion, then, although we have seen that God’s knowledge is NOT “unlimited” and the Scriptures do NOT reveal Him as “omniscient” – His knowledge (particularly in comparison to man’s) is incredibly vast. This knowledge is something we can both comprehend (to an admittedly limited degree) as to its nature, AND we can revel in it, take comfort in it and find our sustenance therein. Truly, for Full Preterists, and all Christians who fully understand and appreciate the nature of our true spiritual economy and circumstances today, this text is a fitting ending to this article.
"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, And the knowledge of the Holy One is understanding." (Prov. 9:10)
The only true understanding of reality, Truth and our relationship to the Creator, is found in the vast (and yet gloriously limited) knowledge of God. How wonderful it is, that the Great Creator chose to generate a physical reality and planetary dwelling place for his self-conscious, autonomous, created beings known as "man" and yet create it in such a way that He, Himself, would likewise experience certain limitations in His involement with us and the rest of His creation. Thus, He enjoys surprises and the delight of new events and circumstances, but in a far superior way to our own experience of them. He has eons of time and experience supporting His own knowledge, while ours is still relatively primitive and vastly inferior to His. I, for one, find this revelation of God's knowledge as found in His Word, a daily comfort and source of enjoyment as I consider the true nature of His Person and Being, and His desire to interact with me, co-operatively bringing a future into being for myself and those around me, that is as closely aligned to His Character and Person as possible.
Serving the Truth,
John McPherson
------
John McPherson is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com. John McPherson lives in British Columbia, on the West Coast of
Vancouver Island with his wife and two boys. John enjoys studying and writing, and is currently working on a B.Th. program.
View John McPherson archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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Re: The Nature of Divine Knowledge (Score: 1)
 by jaredcoleman on Tuesday, March 01 @ 05:45:44 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | John,
I appreciate another thought provoking article. I also have wondered about the omniscience of God. I have to say, though, that I have always leaned (and still do at the moment) toward the idea that in the scripture men anthropomorphized God in order to understand and relate to Him, and even that sometimes God also anthropomorphized Himself for this same purpose. Still, I always appreciate honest and open inquiry.
-- Jared |
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Re: The Nature of Divine Knowledge (Score: 1)
 by Andre on Tuesday, March 01 @ 01:55:07 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | SSF,
It has begun (hehehe)... |
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Re: The Nature of Divine Knowledge (Score: 1)
 by Virgil on Tuesday, March 01 @ 05:32:39 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | John,
Certainly this is an interesting position you have, but I am not so sure the language you are quoting necessarily indicates that there are things that God does not know. You are approaching this argument on our terms, instead of God's terms and this ruins your argument.
When you use words as "future, present or past", you are immediately limiting your argument to our plane of existence, the time space continuum that we live in as physical beings. God DOES know everything that happens within time-space because he exists outside it. Unless you are suggesting that God did not create time-space, then we must recognize that he is not bound by time and space, therefore your argument is irellevant. There is no past, present and future to God...he just IS...outside time...outside space.
From a physics perspective (at least under general relativity), you can look at the classic example (although imperfect) used to illustrate time-space. A stretched out sheet (time) on which you can place balls of variuos sizes (space). A baseball placed on the sheet will make a slight indentation. A bowling ball will make a larger indentation and will cause the baseball to move towards it, therefore time and events in regards to both object are being affected drastically. The problem is that if you would live inside, or ON these objects (such as the planet we live on) you don't know it, but looking at them from the outside, as God does, you can clearly see everything happening AT ONCE. The very fact that he is OUTSIDE the space-time, gets around the Uncertainty Principle and Heisenberg's other uncertainty postulations, so knowing the universe and time in minute detail does not affects the mechanics of it in any way whatsoever.
This is the best, and most plausible explanation for God knowing past, present, and future at the same time. You don't have to deny it in order to justify Scripture - I would rather think that God chooses not to manipulate every atom in the universe at any given second. That would in fact minimize his glory and creative ability. Instead, it is much more clear to me that God, like us chooses NOT to know some things, and although he may have the ability to know all things (1 John 3:20), including the future, it doesn't mean he actually makes it happen. |
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Re: God the automaton? (Score: 1)
by armothe (armothe@yahoo.com) on Tuesday, March 01 @ 07:58:45 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Again, great article John.
We've all heard the term "soulmate". Or perhaps someone has told you that you and that special someone were "meant for eachother". Sure, its easy for people to smile at these comments and never give them a second thought; but it left me thinking....
For the next few days I wrote out the sequence of important events which led to our marriage. Not just any events, mind you, but events which if they did not occur - we would not be married today. There turned out to be about two dozen of these crucial events.
I then studyied the events and asked the question "Did God make these all happen"?. Several of these events were tied to other people - inasmuch if we never met these people we wouldn't have been married.
Example:
Did God cause me to chase a cat across college campus which He divinly led under the bench my future wife was sitting on?
- Did God cause that bench to be built only a few days before?
- Did God cause a child to leave the back door open which resulted in the cat escaping and getting my attention? (yes, this is what really happened)
- Did God place an immediate sense of compassion for the stray cat in my mind - overriding my sense of urgency to complete my college course homework before class began in two hours?
You can see how all of these events connect themselves to subsequent events down the line.
Between my wife and I we are directly responsible for two other couples meeting eachother - which resulted in them getting married. And the chain continues.......
Okay, I pondered, God could indeed make all of these events occur - that just intensifies His majesty, right?
But what if one of these events was a result of sin or sinful behavior?
We've now made God responsible for sin, and herein lies the problem with making God into the automaton
Okay, I'll admit it's even hard for me to swallow the possibility that God doesn't intervene and take part in the world. For if He was totally removed from our world then its feasible to say that God doesn't even answer prayer.
Thus we are left finding our way around the middle of two extremes.
-A |
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Re: The Nature of Divine Knowledge (Score: 1)
by vento on Tuesday, March 01 @ 08:39:29 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Hey SSF!
In regard to Psalm 139, verses 4 and 16 seem to go against the idea the God must do "research" to get to know more intimately those he wishes to.
Also, your argument that predestination ended at AD70 seems arbitrary to me. What is the evidence of this? Maybe I need to read more carefully.
Just a couple of quick thoughts from a quick glance through. Man, I wish I didn't have to do this work thing. It sure gets in the way sometimes!
Thanks, SSF! I appreciate your time.
Scott
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Re: The Nature of Divine Knowledge (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Tuesday, March 01 @ 09:32:23 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | John,
I appreciate the article. It is thought provoking and for that I thank you. Your pointing out the dynamics of relationship is worthwhile.
The first comment that I will offer is that it appears to me that this is all based on a hyper-literalistic reading of the text far more in common with dispensational literalism than the hermeneutic of preterism. As with all hyper-literalist approaches there are many assumptions made about what the text implies that are theoretically possible, but are in now way absolutely demonstrable.
Taken to the logical end your view (and open theism views in general) reduce God down to little more than a glorified man. But is there anthropocentrist genres of communication (like there are apocalyptic genres)in the Biblical account? This is the fundamental question that should be dealt with first. Your view does not allow for anthropocentrism.
Next, I wouldn't play the transcendence of God against the immanence of God as if it were an either/or proposition. I believe the immanence of God is actually dependent on the transcendence of God, for if God were not above and beyond his creation he could not be in and with his creation at all points simultaneously. If God isn't transcendent then God could possibly "miss something" which would lead to errors of judgment and mistaken actions. Limits on God in this respect (transcendence, omniscience, etc.) actually erodes the foundation below the immanence of God (which we both agree is vitally important) - and makes biblical covenantal relationship an untrustworthy, chaotic experience at best. Why trust a God who is limited, i.e. not transcendent? Just because he is willing to relate to me? That seems like an anti-reasonable position.
The two aspects, transcendence and immanence, complement each other, they are not contradictory (from my point of view). Thanks for your effort.
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org |
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Re: The Nature of Divine Knowledge (Score: 1)
 by JeffE on Tuesday, March 01 @ 10:20:31 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | | This is the Open Theism position. It has been written about by Dr. Gregory Boyd here in Minnesota. |
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What title should I use in response? (Score: 1)
by Roderick on Wednesday, March 02 @ 11:27:36 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | John,
Thank you for this detailed exposition of Open Theism. I had considered many titles for my response: What is worse than dispensationalism?, Confirmation not determination, God & the white mice maze -- but since this response will only be a cursory interaction with what you have written I will leave the titles for the actual article I plan to write in response.
Your first example of God having Adam name the animals out of a sense of discovery seems to be a leap, and doesn't really speak to the issue. For instance, there was a TV show a while back called something like "Kid's say the darnest things" and basically they would ask kids to explain things that were common konwledge to the average person. For example, what is the moon made of?. The point of having them explain was entertainment. If you want to say God was entertaining himself with Adam, then so be it. Or perhaps God was utilizing the names Adam would call creatures so as to build those names & titles into the fabric of history -- such as the lamb. But to claim God wanted to "learn" something is a leap. Lastly, and as a side note, the Qu'ran interestingly enough has God naming the animals and teaching Adam those names -- how that fits with this discussion, who knows.
You make speculation that God had originally intended to pair up Adam with an animal but when none was found that God resorted to a backup plan -- the making of Eve. -- Now, if this same God had planned to have Christ slain before the foundation of the world, then don't you think He would have also known about Adam's need for Eve?
The Bible wasn't written for God's benefit, but for our own. It often anthropomorphizes God's being and characteristics so that humans can comprehend. You obviously would not claim God has hands, or arms would you? It seems reasonable then that passages that appear to limit God's perspective is merely that -- an appearent limitation. For instance, we know that God doesn't simply own the cattle on 1000 hills -- but also on all hills. His ownership is not limited even if someone tried to make such a case.
God's investigations, be it about the sin in Sodom, the faithfulness of Abraham, or the searching of hearts is not a determinitive fact finding mission but rather a confirmation to those involved as to what God already knew & decreed. This Open Theistic God is worse than the dispensational God that had to keep resorting to alternate plans. This limited God (who in theory could some day be eclipsed by our own knowledge) is worse than the Mormon God, wherein all mormons may attain godhood.
Such a divine scientist may and should be opposed. For if someone makes up the rules (without knowledge of the effect or consequences of those "rules"), then why can't someone else usurp those rules? Thwart the plans, create alternatives? It would seem various non-Christian(even atheistic) plans/philosophies could then be appealing. For instance, I personally prefer not to kill anything -- I rarely kill bugs even, and though this seems even more compassionate than what the biblical God would warrant I would have no vanity in trying to convert people to this philosophy -- I'm not divine.
John, I like you alot and you and I have fought side by side on some common issues but on this one I can not go. Such a God is unworthy of our continual reverence anymore than the dispensational depiction of a failed Christ that hasn't come back and completed what He set out to do.
In God, all in all,
Roderick |
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Re: The Nature of Divine Knowledge (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Friday, March 04 @ 13:36:22 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose
God <
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- by SuperSoulFighter on Friday, March 04 @ 15:13:18 PST
Re: The Nature of Divine Knowledge (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Friday, March 04 @ 13:37:54 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Remember the former things of old; for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is none like me, declaring the end from the beginning and from ancient times things not yet done, saying, 'My counsel shall stand, and I will accomplish all my purpose
God
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Re: The Nature of Divine Knowledge (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Friday, March 04 @ 13:44:17 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | | http://www.carm.org/open.htm |
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Re: The Nature of Divine Knowledge (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Friday, March 04 @ 13:45:49 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | http://www.carm.org/open.htm
Open theism addressed in link above. |
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- by SuperSoulFighter on Friday, March 04 @ 15:16:18 PST
Re: The Nature of Divine Knowledge (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Friday, March 04 @ 15:48:31 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Hey John are you proposing that at one time no one directed the Spirit of God in regards to whom was "born again" but now we decide where the Spirit goes and who is "born again"
Laughable. |
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Re: The Nature of Divine Knowledge (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Friday, March 04 @ 16:08:30 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | John writes: It provides me with the opportunity to publicly dissect the faulty, flawed case against OT.
John - are you saying that you are going to use LOGIC to "dissect the faulty, flawed case"
On what basis are you going to use these laws of logic ??? How do you know that these laws still exist ??? Who put them in place ??? Maybe they ended at 70 AD too ???
If God is not “transcendent” then there is no reason to debate. We can't account for logic.
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- by SuperSoulFighter on Friday, March 04 @ 23:38:40 PST
Re: The Nature of Divine Knowledge (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Friday, March 04 @ 16:25:27 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Herod's contempt for Jesus (Luke 23:11) and Pilate's spineless expediency (Luke 23:24) and the Jews' "Crucify! Crucify him!" (Luke 23:21) and the Gentile soldiers' mockery (Luke 23:36) were also sinful attitudes and deeds. Yet in Acts 4:27-28 Luke expresses his understanding of the sovereignty of God in these acts by recording the prayer of the Jerusalem saints:
Truly in this city there were gathered together against thy holy servant Jesus, whom thou didst anoint both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel to do whatever thy hand and thy plan (boule) had predestined to take place.
John what is going on above. Seems as if God is not in control...then all of the sudden it is revealed as Gods plan. How do you reconcile this? |
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WHo Do You Trust? (Score: 1)
by nate4onenation on Wednesday, March 09 @ 16:42:50 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Why would I trust in a God like that?
I am to leave my trust that all that I am to be and do is governed by the one I am to make Lord. If He does not know what is to happen with me,or what I will do, then how can I trust that I will perform in His will? How will "all things work to the good for those who love Him and are called according to His purposes?"
If my God only has more "magic" but not any more "control" than a human ruler...I have picked the wrong religion.
Christianity is a crutch. It is based on the fact that we cannot run our own lives toward any goodness or purpose. So God sent Jesus, to do it for us. He did not make us capable of perfection after AD 70, He just simple perfected us in conscience so that we could live in peace and rest in the knowledge He "has our back." This makes us perform as productive humans, but we are not capable of living apart from His care, knowledge, direction, etc. And He is not capable of those things, without perfect knowledge.
God Bless
Nate |
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- by SuperSoulFighter on Sunday, March 13 @ 16:01:47 PST
Re: The Nature of Divine Knowledge (Score: 1)
by philmute on Monday, April 18 @ 07:31:26 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Hi John
I am impressed by the cautious manner in which you seek a true understanding of God. It is immensely difficult to escape those ideologies which were worked out by Theologians whose entire culture was rooted in the concept and reality of an absolute Monarch. Too easily the Christian Community forgets that Israel was to have no King but Yahweh, in order to curb the debilitating effects of a lust for power and the corruption and exploitation that results therefrom. Supersoulfighter (love that handle where's the light sabre) makes a superb point when he identifies that too possess ALL power is to be without limits, this is precisely the reality of Islam's deity. Thus Mohammed asked for prayers to be said for him after his death whereas Christ asserted 'I lay my life down of mine own volition and I take it up again' because understanding that God is bound by his justice he knew as a righteous man 'it was not possible that death could hold him'. Death being a judgement on sin could have no power on a sinless man.
It seems to me that the scripture asserts that when God wants to know a person he will otherwise basically he leaves the planet to get along according to the operations of natural law, this is the statement in Genesis 'as long as seedtime and harvest remain' which should caution any Preterist to an awareness that these mechanisms can be destroyed by Man for we alone are created in God's image and thus have developed the knowledge to destroy God's natural law. Unfortunately the popular eschatologies promote only indifference to our ecological responsibility |
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