 |
 |
|
The glory! The glory! If I don't release it, I'll blow up. If I don't release the anointing, I'll blow up. I got to release it on somebody. The demon must bow to the name of the master Jesus ... Yes Lord I'll do it! I place a curse on every man and woman that will stretch his hand against this anointing. I curse that man who dares to speak a word against this ministry. -- Benny Hinn, TBN, Denver CO |
|
 |  |
by Samuel Frost This article will contain no references to Matthew 24, Josephus or the visions of the Apocalypse (whew!). Instead, a much deeper problem appears on the Preterist horizon, and it ain’t Calvinism versus Arminianism. It’s Empiricism versus Presuppositionalism. Before you get your “isms” in a wad, let me define them for you. As Gordon Clark always stated, if you cannot define your terms, then you do not know what you are talking about. The problem of “definition” goes back to Plato’s Dialogues, which I wished every Christian read.
Having said that, and having studied far more than just Preterism, which is but one subject among a myriad of subjects, science has always intrigued me. At first, I believed (faith) that science could actually explain the universe and how it works. But, through college and seminary, I found that the more I read scientific literature, they were just as divided on issues as Christianity. Why? I thought. If someone could look at a rock, run a carbon-14 test on it and tell the date, origins and composite material, then isn’t that a definition of a rock? Well, no. It’s just what we call this thing that appears to have these particular properties and acts this particular way. But every individual rock is different. The same with zoology and botony. No two cats are the same. They have shared properties, but they each have distinct properties that make them different. This is the problem of individuation. But, I am getting ahead of myself.
No one would deny that Michael Polanyi was not a “scientist.” He was the professor of physical chemistry at the University of Manchester. He wrote Science, Faith and Society (University of Chicago Press, 1946). In his opening chapter, “Science and Reality”, he stated, “Never yet has a definite rule been laid down by which any particular mathematical function can be recognized, among an infinite number of those offering themselves for choice, as the one which expresses a natural law. It is true that each of the infinite number of available functions will, in general, lead to a different prediction when applied to new observations…” (21). He goes on to state that science cannot, from a choice of infinite choices of measurements, grant absolute explanations called “natural laws.” Natural laws are defined as fixed laws of the observable universe, like dropping an apple on Newton’s head.
Now, before going further, we must define Empiricism. “In all its forms, empiricism stresses the fundamental role of experience. As a doctrine in epistemology it holds that all knowledge is ultimately based on experience” (Concise Routledge Encyclopedia of Philosophy, Routledge, 2000), “Empiricism”, William P. Alston). Now, remember what Clark said above. We must define our terms. What, then, is the definition of “experience”? Alston immediately is aware of the problem and, thus, attempts to define “experience”: “It is difficult to give an illuminating analysis of ‘experience’. Let us say that it includes any mode of consciousness in something that seems to be presented to the subject, as contrasted with the mental activity of thinking about things” (ibid.). Wow. Instead of saying , “let us say,” he really means “let us assume.” But, I have not defined Presuppositionalism, yet. “Any” mode of “consciousness” begs to be defined as well, but, alas, Mr. Alston does not do so. What the heck is “conscious”? Has anyone ever “seen” being “conscious” under a microscope? The Apostle Paul talks a great deal about the conscience, but Paul receives this information from the revelation of God. It is strange, indeed, that “experience” is based on “something presented to the conscious” and, in turn, “conscience” is not based on anything presented or seen at all! verblüffend! Secondly, he used the phrase “seems to be presented.” It “seems” to some that aliens gave them a probing in the night. If “experience” is based on what “seems” (may or not) be presented to the subject, then we hardly have a definition of experience.
Nonetheless, Alston goes on to say, “but empiricists usually concentrate on sense experience, the modes of consciousness that result from the stimulation of the fives senses” (ibid.). This is loaded. Note that the fives sense stimulate the consciousness of a person. But do they tell him or her anything? The definition above already stated that “all knowledge” is derived from “experience” and, thus, all knowledge is derived from the five senses stimulating the conscious person. Theology is impossible, but, so is science.
Take a breath. I have not even begun. Before, we quoted Polanyi, who is what is called a “critical realist.” Ben Meyer defined critical realism as “intensely empirical” (Critical Realism and the New Testament, Princeton Theological Monograph Series, 1989). John Polkinghorne is a critical realist, too. Yet, based on this methodology (which is basically Kantian, but that’s another dead German philosopher’s story), Polkinghorne cuts to the chase with what it means for idiots who believe that the Bible is without error: “For me, the Bible is neither an inerrant account of propositional truth nor a compendium of timeless symbols” (Faith, Science & Understanding, Yale Nota Bene, 2000). Yet, Polkinghorne, noted scientist, believes in the Christian faith. He just does not start with the Bible, but with Empiricism. If one starts with “experience” and “senses,” then one can never arrive to the conclusion that the Bible is the word of God.
Now we can define Presuppositionalism. It is the philosophy that insists that one must start on unprovable propositions. A proposition is simply a declarative statement, like, “All knowledge is derived from sensation.” If one must prove every statement, then one could never start anywhere. The conversation would go on ad infinitum. The Bible has an answer for this: the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom. That is, one starts with God. But which God? There are a lot of gods floating around. However, the God of the Bible is defined by His own self-disclosure (revelation), and revelation knowledge is hardly empirical. It comes to the mind ab extra (from outside). One does not pick up a rock, see a cloud, hear a sound and conclude: Jesus died for my sins! How did you become convinced? The Bible answers: the Holy Spirit opened the eyes of my heart. Hardly empirical.
Before we wrap this up, let’s go back to science and talk about measurements, mentioned by Polanyi above. Measurement is the stuff of science. Lines, spheres, triangles, weight, mass and the like are all measured, and the ratios of these measurements are relentlessly tested over and over again. If they continue to perform the predicted task, then a “law” has been “discovered.” However, as Polanyi noted, measurements require a “choice” from an infinite selection of where to begin. Gordon Clark, stated this years ago: “If mathematical equations could describe nature, the chance of choosing the correct description is one over infinity, or zero. Therefore, all the laws of physics are false” (Philosophy of Science and Belief in God, Trinity Foundation, 1996 [1964]). This is not to say that what we call “laws” and the like are not useful constructions, they most certainly are useful. I would not be able to type on a computer screen were it not for the usefulness of Boolean symbolic logic! Scientist P.W. Bridgman wrote, “The attitude of the physicist must…be one of pure empiricism. He recognizes no a priori principles which determine or limit possibilities of new experience” (The Logic of Modern Physics, Macmillan Paperbacks, 1960). A priori simply means where one starts their system. A physicist cannot have any starting points, because possible new, unknown factors may alter the hypotheses, and if the physicist is committed to his system in spite of these unexpected factors, then he is no longer a scientist, but a propagandist. In short, to quote Polkinghorne again, “Science never is absolutely certain, nor is its method absolutely clear cut” (op. cit.). The only way it can be absolutely certain is to have all possible knowledge available in all possible worlds. In order to know anything, empiricism must know everything (omniscience), but empiricism cannot know everything, therefore, it cannot know anything.
How about a few quotes from atheistic scientists? Popper, legendary in his field, wrote, “..in science we do our best to find the truth, [but] we are conscious of the fact that we can never be sure we have got it…” (Popper Selections, “Two Kinds of Definitions”, Princeton University Press, 1985). Or, “All scientific statements are hypotheses, or guesses, or conjectures which have turned out to be false” (Conjectures and Refutations: the Growth of Scientific Knowledge, Harper and Row, 1968). Or, take this quote from celebrated atheist and scientist-mathematician, Bertrand Russell: “All inductive arguments in the last resort reduce themselves to the following form: “if this is true, that is true; now that is true: therefore, this is true.” This argument is, of course, formally fallacious. Suppose I were to say “if bread is a stone, and stones are nourishing, then this bread will nourish me; now this bread does nourish me; therefore, it is a stone, and stones are nourishing.” If I were to advance such an argument, I should certainly be thought foolish, yet it would not be fundamentally different from the argument upon which all scientific laws are based.” It appears, then, that Russell, Clark, Polanyi, Popper, Bridgman, Polkinghorne and many, many other scientists are in agreement: scientism can never grant absolute, propositional knowledge. It is thoroughly empirical, and as such, must remain empirical through and through. If it starts with the senses, it must demonstrate by sensation how sensation becomes conceptual in the mind, and, it must demonstrate that a mind exists at all (naturalists and behaviorists psychologists like Skinner, Rogers, and the like deny “mind” but only what they “see”: the brain. There is no “mind”). The problems with empiricism are so varied that these three pages here are hardly even the tip of the tip of the tip of the tiniest fraction of the tip of an iceberg.
So, when a person in here tells me that he can measure the sun and then state that is has “roughly 4 or 5 billion years left on it” I must laugh. When the Bible says, “This is what the LORD says: 'If I have not established my covenant with day and night and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, 26 then I will reject the descendants of Jacob and David my servant and will not choose one of his sons to rule over the descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob” (Jer. 33.25-26). This is repeated in 33.19-22. The logic is clear: If you can break my covenant with the day and the night (sun and moon) and the fixed laws of heaven and earth, then I reject the seed of Jacob and David my servant. Yet, we know that “David my servant” is promised a seed “forever” and that that answers to Jesus, who is the messianic David. Therefore, God will not break his covenant with the day or the night. Therefore, his covenant with the day and the night is forever as Jesus is forever. For those who argue that the term “forever” has no notion of “time without end” may want to spend a few years in Hebrew lexicography. The term is applied to God. Is He “everlasting to everlasting” or will he, too, “burn out” one day?
Psalm 104.5 states, “He set the land on its foundations, it can never be moved.” Here, the word “forever” is not used, but a more explicit syntactical phrase means the same thing. Psalm 89.34-36 is explicit in terms of what we read in Jeremiah: “I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered…I will not lie to David…his line will continue forever and his throne endure before me like the sun.” Hmmm. Let’s apply logic: if David’s line lasts forever by the unalterable covenant of God swearing by himself, then the sun must last just as long, therefore, the sun lasts forever. I can quote at least ten more references like this, but I think you get the picture. The figurative-metaphorical passages that speak of the sun being no more, or the heavens rolling up and vanishing are the non-literal passages, but the passages that speak of the eternal endurance of the good creation of God are the literal. Now, for some pseudo-scientist to come along and say with absolute certainly that the sun will “burn out” one day, in light of this paper, is, in my mind, not a Christian thinker.
In conclusion, Preterism must reject empiricism, common sense philosophies, critical-realist epistemologies, Kantian experientially derived analytical propositions and the like. It must begin with the revelation of God. It must end with the revelation of God. When any other view, such as historical “evidence” or scientific “veridicalism”, is used as the place to start, the Bible becomes, automatically, regulated to that view. In short, the Bible comes to be judged by man, rather than the man judged by the Bible. We decide what is, and is not “God’s word” by our own mental capacities and philosophies rather than regulate our minds to the word of God, written. Scientism is the original lie: did God say? “Hey, Eve, look at the tree, discover it, taste it, touch it, feel it. It will make you feel good.” And then Eve thought, “it does look pleasing to the eyes, and it appears desirous for food.” Had she just stood on the revealed word of God, Satan would not have had a chance.
------
Samuel Frost is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com. Samuel is a MA Pastor of Christ Covenant Church in Tampa Florida. He is the author of Misplaced Hope and Exegetical Essays on the Resurrection of the Dead, both available in the PlanetPreterist bookstore.
View Samuel Frost archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
|
| |
 |
^^Go to Top - E-mail to Friend - Print - View PDF - Subscribe - Comments RSS
Re: Just A Tad Bit of Philosophy (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Friday, February 18 @ 08:46:48 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Sam,
I know well the philosophical position you come from. I have studied Popper, Kuhn, Kant, etc. I hear where you are coming from, and appreciate your presentation of these very important developments by very important thinkers. Thinkers who did not begin with the revelation of God and who, in many ways did not end with the revelation of God as they formulated their positions. Unbelieving thinkers whom you rely upon, ironically enough.
There are some issues I would like to go in depth with, but will only mention for now. I agree with your position that the Christian must begin and end with the revelation of God. However, I believe that God reveals himself not only in Scripture, but in the world around me. Classical theologians have termed "both books" of God's revelation as special and general revelation. If this is true then the scientist who does *good* science and looks at God's creation to learn God's thoughts after him is as much relying upon God's revelation as the theologian who limits all of God's revelation to the Scripture and then *assumes* his interpretation is inspired. This is a crippling oversight in your position and would, if pressed to consistency - rule out any revelaton of God beyond the written Scriptures. Do you deny that God reveals himself in the created, physical world and universe?
Another point to consider is the issues these unbelieving philosophers bring forth are just as relevant to the "science" of biblical interpretation. In other words, your pointing this problem out to the scientist is true applicable and fair. There is this issue of the Philosophy of Science that cannot go away merely by observation and experimentation. Yet what is also true is that this connection between position and paradigm is just as relevant for the interpreter of Scripture. There are plenty of Christians out there who would chastise you for your interpretation of heavens and earth, world, etc. - saying you have left the obvious (literal) meaning of these things. So the divides that do remain among scientist no more falsify all science than the divides among theologians falsify all biblical interpretation.
The real issue is what makes for good biblical interpretation? What makes biblical interpretation trustworthy? The same goes for science. What makes for good scientific observation? What makes scientific advancement trustworthy and repeatable?
I again caution preterists in jumping out into the creation-vs- science debate without deeply considering the linguistic issues. Young earth creationists tend to make the language issues simple - they literalize everything including Matt. 24 and Revelation. Responding to this in some sort of "partial" literalness where one text of biblical language represents a figurative reading and another usage of the same phraseology and terms represent a literal reading is an unstable, arbitrary method. Methodologically, it is no different from the principles of partial-preterism which assigns some texts to fulfillment, and some texts to the future when the language relations and parallel usage rules this dissection as impossible.
Please be careful declaring what scientists say about the sun as being "Unchristian" on the authority of Scripture.
Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by Sam on Friday, February 18 @ 10:17:45 PST
- by kfiech on Friday, February 18 @ 12:33:35 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Friday, February 18 @ 15:38:42 PST
- by JL on Friday, February 18 @ 16:36:52 PST
- by kfiech on Friday, February 18 @ 18:01:26 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Saturday, February 19 @ 11:02:49 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Saturday, February 19 @ 11:40:15 PST
- by vento on Friday, February 18 @ 12:46:10 PST
- by KingNeb on Friday, February 18 @ 17:36:48 PST
- by vento on Saturday, February 19 @ 19:14:55 PST
- by KingNeb on Sunday, February 20 @ 16:32:36 PST
- by vento on Sunday, February 20 @ 19:30:50 PST
- by JL on Friday, February 18 @ 13:42:34 PST
- by JL on Friday, February 18 @ 15:29:46 PST
- by KingNeb on Friday, February 18 @ 10:30:52 PST
- by JL on Friday, February 18 @ 13:44:04 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Friday, February 18 @ 16:48:04 PST
- by Sam on Friday, February 18 @ 18:18:16 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Saturday, February 19 @ 05:00:24 PST
- by armothe on Monday, February 21 @ 05:48:38 PST
Re: Just A Tad Bit of Philosophy (Score: 1)
by chrisliv on Friday, February 18 @ 13:37:31 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Yeah, Sam,
A Christian need not be anti-empirical, as you suggest.
Christians and objective secular folks can probably agree that all the data in not yet in.
And I think it is a mistake to promote an alleged "Eternal Earth" as a tenant of Preterism or even as a biblical implication.
You stated:
"Psalm 89.34-36 is explicit in terms of what we read in Jeremiah: “I will not violate my covenant or alter what my lips have uttered…I will not lie to David…his line will continue forever and his throne endure before me like the sun.” Hmmm. Let’s apply logic: if David’s line lasts forever by the unalterable covenant of God swearing by himself, then the sun must last just as long, therefore, the sun lasts forever. I can quote at least ten more references like this, but I think you get the picture. "
No, I don't get that picture. Are you being facetious?
Does David's line and throne continue, even now?
No, not in the carnal or material sense.
The Davidic covenant even stated that the scepter would depart from Judah when Shiloh came. And so, it did.
God communicated in terms that people understood, and the Bible is a record of that, even if there is a misunderstanding to some degree by one of the communicating parties (not God).
It's recorded that Joshua once asked to have the Sun stop its rotation around the Earth, but we know that Joshua's cosmology was flawed, yet the Lord granted his request without providing an astro-physics lesson.
"Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon." Joshua 10:12
Are these all contradictions?
No, not at all.
The revelation of God in the Old Covenant led the Israelites to believe that through them all the nations (Gentiles) of the Earth would be blessed. And that was true, to a degree, but it had nothing to do with Jews being better than Gentiles, they weren't. The promised "Seed" or "Offspring" was actually, we are told much later, a play on words, which could be taken in the singular or the plural sense.
And Apostle Paul tells us, in his Epistle to the Galatians, and Romans too, that the the promised Seed was, untimately, not natural "Jewish" Israel. (Gal. 3:16) It even took Apostle Peter ten years and a trance induced by the Holy Spirit to figure that out. (Acts 10:10)
The Promise was to Christ, the True Israel of God, and we too, by trusting in Him. But Christ was a bachelor, so how does his line continue?
Not through blood. Nor is His throne a gaudy ornate fixture on some strip of Middle Eastern real estate.
That's what the Dispensationalist and Christian Zionists don't want to get! They ignore the New Testament illumination regarding Old Covenant passages. They are still waiting for the King and Blessing to come through a genetic line of Jews, with a Christ who styles himself as a hostile global dictator from a petty, earthly palace.
As a Preterist, you, Sam, don't do that, but you do interpret Old Covenant passages in a somewhat similar fashion, in an effort to "prove" an alleged Eternal Earth.
So, Christians need not be threatened if the Sun does continue to loose it's energy.
The Moon is apparently continuing, every year, to get a couple inches further away from the Earth, which suggests that the Earth is quite young, because at the current rate of movement, the Moon would have made the Earth uninhabitable due to closeness to the Earth and resultant tidal waves.
Peace to you all,
C. Livingstone |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by JL on Friday, February 18 @ 13:50:13 PST
- by chrisliv on Friday, February 18 @ 14:45:18 PST
- by Virgil on Friday, February 18 @ 14:56:34 PST
- by Sam on Friday, February 18 @ 17:12:24 PST
- by Virgil on Friday, February 18 @ 18:07:55 PST
- by mdpopescu on Monday, February 21 @ 12:00:37 PST
- by JL on Friday, February 18 @ 15:38:33 PST
- by chrisliv on Friday, February 18 @ 16:44:16 PST
- by Virgil on Friday, February 18 @ 18:12:00 PST
- by chrisliv on Friday, February 18 @ 22:12:30 PST
- by Virgil on Saturday, February 19 @ 05:49:27 PST
- by chrisliv on Saturday, February 19 @ 12:33:36 PST
- by Virgil on Saturday, February 19 @ 13:23:50 PST
- by chrisliv on Saturday, February 19 @ 18:03:16 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Saturday, February 19 @ 18:26:26 PST
- by Virgil on Saturday, February 19 @ 19:03:52 PST
- by chrisliv on Sunday, February 20 @ 09:45:40 PST
- by Virgil on Saturday, February 19 @ 19:00:32 PST
- by chrisliv on Saturday, February 19 @ 22:54:29 PST
- by armothe on Monday, February 21 @ 06:43:47 PST
- by chrisliv on Monday, February 21 @ 11:07:23 PST
- by chrisliv on Monday, February 21 @ 11:30:11 PST
- by armothe on Tuesday, February 22 @ 05:46:58 PST
- by chrisliv on Tuesday, February 22 @ 08:14:25 PST
- by JL on Tuesday, February 22 @ 10:41:16 PST
- by chrisliv on Wednesday, February 23 @ 02:51:26 PST
- by JL on Thursday, February 24 @ 13:28:09 PST
- by chrisliv on Friday, February 25 @ 00:43:05 PST
Re: Just A Tad Bit of Philosophy (Score: 1)
by Sam on Friday, February 18 @ 16:34:49 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | I knew that the above essay would raise eyebrows. I cannot comment, either, on the remarks made. Clark wrote over forty books on the subject. I suggest you start reading. The differences between Van Til and Clark are huge. Tim Martin suggests that Clark made "the law of non-contradiction the center of his theology." False. This is a constant criticism of Clark from those who have heard what Clark teaches only from Van Til and Bahnsen (and Sproul is just as equally in the woods). I have read most of Van Til, Bahnsen (on this matter) and virtually all of Clark. Van Til leaves one with skepticism (no one can actually know God's truth propositionally). There is a level of ignorance on these matters in this room so concentrated on Preterism. Before I became a Preterist, I was steeped in other issues, too! There is more to life than Preterism! The implications of playing on the same ball field of empiricists is that they have you beat. Now, if any of you bright philosophers can answer one question correctly, you get the prize: how does sensation become perception? Be careful now...if you are an empiricist, then you must demonstrate BY empiricism how sensation becomes perception. Let the games begin.
Samuel Frost |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by MiddleKnowledge on Saturday, February 19 @ 02:57:11 PST
- by Sam on Saturday, February 19 @ 06:30:18 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Tuesday, February 22 @ 11:14:27 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Tuesday, February 22 @ 17:13:38 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Thursday, February 24 @ 15:31:19 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Thursday, February 24 @ 18:51:24 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Friday, February 25 @ 14:58:11 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Saturday, February 26 @ 10:25:30 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Saturday, February 26 @ 14:49:44 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Saturday, February 26 @ 20:54:07 PST
- by MiddleKnowledge on Thursday, February 24 @ 21:53:41 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Friday, February 25 @ 15:00:51 PST
- by JL on Thursday, February 24 @ 14:27:01 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Thursday, February 24 @ 14:40:02 PST
- by JL on Friday, February 25 @ 09:52:09 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Friday, February 25 @ 15:23:46 PST
Quotations By Gordon Clark (Score: 1)
by MiddleKnowledge on Saturday, February 19 @ 04:04:33 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Since it appears that some here are not familiar with Gordon Clark, I thought it may be helpful to quote some of his passages regarding science. This will give people here a feel for his approach. Then you can judge for yourself. All quotations come from Gordon Clark's book, A CHRISTIAN VIEW OF MEN AND THINGS. All emphasis is his. Consult the book directly for wider context and application.
Speaking of the imprecision of scientific measurement
p. 208-209
"The important thing is that areas allow the possibility of an infinite number of curves; that is, measurements with variable errors allow an infinite number of natural laws. The particular law that the scientist announces to the world is not a DISCOVERY forced on him by so-called facts; it is rather a CHOICE from among an infinity of laws all of which enjoy the same experimental basis. Thus it is seen that the falsity of science derives directly from its ideal of accuracy. It may be a fact that gold is heavier than water, but it is not a scientific fact; It may be a fact that the longer and farther a body falls, the faster it goes, but Galileo was not interested in this type of fact. The Scientist wants mathematical accuracy; and when he cannot discover it, he makes it. Since he chooses his law from among an infinite number of equally possible laws, the probability that he has chosen the "true" law is one over infinity, i.e. zero; or, in plain English, the scientist has no chance on hitting upon the "real" laws of nature. No one doubts that scientific laws are useful: by them the atomic bomb was invented. The point of all this argument is merely this: however USEFUL scientific laws are, they cannot be TRUE. Or at the very least, the point of all this argument is that scientific laws are not DISCOVERED, but are CHOSEN.
p.210
"Naturally a great many people, steeped in nineteenth century scientific traditions, react violently to the idea that science is all false. Did we not make the atom bomb, they say? Does not vaccination prevent smallpox? Cannot we predict the position of Jupiter and an eclipse of the sun? Verified prediction makes it forever ridiculous to attack science. This reaction is of course understandable, however irrational it may be. The argument has not "attacked" science at all; it has insisted that science is extremely useful - though by its own requirements it must be false. The aim nowhere has been to attack science; the aim is to show what science is.
p. 214-215
To speak of the sun as ninety million miles distant from the earth, or of the star as some billions of miles distant, is to assume that lengths in inches, feet, and miles on the earth's surface are the same sort of distances that separate the stars. But since the operations used in measuring these two sets of "lengths" are different, it follows that there is no "distance" between earth and the sun. Similarly, any other concept that has been used in connection with different operations is equally ambiguous and misleading. To carry this thought one step further, it may be added that the operations of science change from time to time, and when they change all the old concepts are discarded. If a new instrument should be invented for the measuring of stellar distances, the results would not be the "length" of the previous experimentation.
p.215-216
Careful scientific procedure was originally invented for the purpose of overcoming the grossness of ordinary sensation. The unaided eye cannot make fine distinctions and therefore delicate instruments had to be invented in order accurately to measure, say, a length. A length was supposed to be some sort of real attribute of a physical thing. Now length turns out to be just operations themselves. And how can the scientist observe and define operations? Will he depend on his unaided eye to describe the instruments and the procedure, or will he invent other more delicate instruments to measure the operations, ad infinitum? T
Read the rest of this comment... |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by Sam on Saturday, February 19 @ 06:32:39 PST
- by Virgil on Saturday, February 19 @ 06:59:40 PST
- by Sam on Saturday, February 19 @ 07:28:09 PST
- by Virgil on Saturday, February 19 @ 07:42:13 PST
- by Sam on Saturday, February 19 @ 15:26:13 PST
- by Virgil on Saturday, February 19 @ 15:36:08 PST
- by KingNeb on Sunday, February 20 @ 10:55:05 PST
- by Virgil on Sunday, February 20 @ 12:08:32 PST
- by KingNeb on Sunday, February 20 @ 16:41:10 PST
- by Virgil on Sunday, February 20 @ 16:53:52 PST
- by KingNeb on Monday, February 21 @ 18:51:57 PST
Re: What if conclusion is NOT (Score: 1)
by Windpressor (Giddi_one) on Sunday, February 20 @ 22:29:48 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | >>>'If one starts with “experience” and “senses,” then one can never arrive to the conclusion that the Bible is the word of God.'<<<
--- I experience the Bible through my senses by which I am made aware of things beyond sensing.
--- Is arriving at the "conclusion that the Bible is the word of God" neccessary? The term "word of God" applied TO scripture does not appear to be synonomous with use of same IN scripture. I wonder what comes up with a word search.....
--- Scripture certainly reports on instances about and records references to the Word of God but does not seem to exact the connection of equivalency.
This is not to call into question canonicity, sola scriptura or inspiration of scripture(2Tim 3:16). Those issues have to bear up under their own scrutinies which may or may not relate to scripture being considered as the Word of God in some fashion. The questions I have are about what scripture says about itself and how it has come to be known as the Word of God. I have generally accepted without question, the claim by others, that the Bible was the Word of God. Now I question ---
What chapter and verse declares that scripture is the Word of God?
If there is no direct statement of equivalence then how and where does scripture expressly make the claim that such written testimony is The Word of God? Is there something of semantics or translation that shows such a conclusion from the original languages?
If there is no clearly obviated claim from scripture, then we have a derived doctrine which may or may not be well founded. If so, how then is such doctrine supported? Does this idea come by satori, or a leap of logic? Is it based on evidentiary developments or mind control? Is there an internal line of reasoning from the texts sufficient to derive such doctrine? Does that doctrine derive support from additional external evidence or proofs?
Hebrews 11:3 By faith we understand that the universe was created by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things that are visible.(ESV)
If the word of God is invisible, does calling scripture such cause conflict with....
Pro 30:5)Every word of God proves true; he is a shield to those who take refuge in him. 6)Do not add to his words, lest he rebuke you and you be found a liar.(ESV)
Am I missing something here? Is this just an oversimplification of definition superficials?
Or does this raise a legitimate question of longstanding tradition?
G1
|
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by Windpressor on Monday, February 21 @ 00:08:47 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Tuesday, February 22 @ 11:31:54 PST
- by Windpressor on Wednesday, February 23 @ 00:55:13 PST
- by Windpressor on Friday, February 25 @ 09:15:54 PST
- by JL on Friday, February 25 @ 10:14:45 PST
- by Windpressor on Monday, February 28 @ 01:53:01 PST
- by Windpressor on Monday, February 28 @ 01:50:05 PST
- by JL on Monday, February 28 @ 05:18:27 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Tuesday, March 01 @ 00:42:37 PST
- by JL on Tuesday, March 01 @ 07:07:41 PST
- by Windpressor on Thursday, March 03 @ 01:30:33 PST
- by Windpressor on Wednesday, March 02 @ 22:59:38 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Friday, March 04 @ 09:23:30 PST
- by Windpressor on Saturday, March 05 @ 02:12:41 PST
|
|