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"Adam committed high treason; and at that point, all the dominion and authority God had given tohim was handed over to Satan. Suddenly, God was on the outside looking in...After Adam's fall, God found Himself in a peculiar position...God needed an avenue back into the earth...God laid out His proposition and Abram accepted it. It gave God access to the earth and gave man access to God...Technically, if God ever broke the Covenant, He would have to destroy Himself." -- Kenneth Copeland |
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Exclusive: Preterism and Calvinism: The Philosophical Argument, Part 1
Posted on Saturday, January 15 @ 09:21:36 PST by Virgil Vaduva |
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by Virgil Vaduva Earlier I was viciously attacked by someone here because of my rejection of the general theology of Calvinism, and particularly, the doctrine of predestination. I was labeled “blind, sorry, foolish, heretic, vain, sad, nauseating, hypocritical, and sinful.” All this because I disagree with election and predestination. Since this is MY website, I decided to respond to these vicious allegations appropriately and show why I believe election to be incompatible with Preterism, and furthermore why Calvinism is a relic of futurist theology.
I will approach my argument against Calvinism and specifically against predestination in three distinct articles dealing with the following topics:
- The Philosophical argument
- History of Calvinism and predestination
- Calvinism and Preterism: Two incompatible worldviews
The Question of Personal Identity
When I started studying philosophy, I ran across a poem by Elizabeth Bishop which was presented to us during a philosophical debate. Poetry is not my first choice for communicating abstract concepts; however this particular powerful poem struck me and stuck with me ever since; so much so that I still have my very first philosophy textbook in my library.
In the poem, “In the Waiting Room,” Elizabeth Bishop remembered a visit to the dentist on a winter day in 1918. She describes the time when she became aware of herself as a self:
I said to myself: three days
and you'll be seven years old.
I was saying it to stop
the sensation of falling off
the round, turning world
into cold, blue-black space.
But I felt: you are an I,
you are an Elizabeth,
you are one of them.
Why should you be one, too?
I scarcely dared to look
to see what it was I was.
I gave a sidelong glance
--I couldn't see any higher--
at shadowy gray knees,
trousers and skirts and boots
and different pairs of hands
lying under the lamps.
I knew that nothing stranger
had ever happened, that nothing
stranger could ever happen.
Why should I be my aunt,
or me, or anyone
What similarities--
boots, hands, the family voice
I felt in my throat...
held us all together
or made us all just one? - Elizabeth Bishop, In the waiting room
What this poem describes is something all humans experience at some point in their lives: the sudden realization that each of us is an I, an independent self. This is an awesome, amazing and powerful realization, which can bring tears to my eyes and feelings of amazement and of giving glory to God for finding it necessary to give me, the lowly me, a sense of self. And this process of self-realization underlines one of the most awesome characteristics of God, and therefore of mankind. Self-consciousness and personal identity is what gives man the ability to refer to himself as “I” or “me.” This is consistent with God's repeated use of the phrase “I am” when describing who he is and is consistent with God naming the first man Adam, setting him apart from the rest of the creation. This self-identity provided by God is instilled in Adam's descendants to this day. We all as humans have a strong sense of identity which we both use as a platform for our environment (so that we view ourselves as having distinct identities, separating us from everything and everyone else) and as a means to identify ourselves for the rest of eternity, set aside our good and bad memories, moments of happiness and sadness, love, dreams and creative times when we know God's glory is being magnified through our actions. It is this process of self-awareness and self-identification that is being denied by Calvinism and by supporters of predestination. Also note that the self in this context is unrelated to the human soul and the two concepts are entirely different.
When an architect creates a building, the most important step in the building process is the architect's projection of himself into the building. The building first exists in the mind of the architect as an abstract, concrete model of the reality of the building. Nonetheless, this model is very important in the creation of the building itself. The modeling step of the creative process is key to identifying the creator and his relation to the creation. In fact, by projecting their personal identity over their creation, authors and creators can be identified by outsiders as distinctive individuals. This is how one can visit a museum, point to a painting and say, “This is a Monet,” or “This is a Van Gogh.” And this is how experts in architecture can point to a building and say “this building is in so-and-so style.” In essence, Monet and Van Gogh, through their paintings clearly are expressing one thing: “This is who I am.” This is possible because the creator had one important characteristic: a sense of self and of personal identity which clearly and undeniably separated himself from everyone else before him and after him. Throughout the ages, people have been able to create things which personified their memories, dreams, intentions, feelings, wishes and desires, which all sum up the I am.
The Question of Self-Transcendence
Since the “I am” statement appears to be a sum of everything that one is as a human being, it would only be natural for me to look at all the “I ams” out there and compare them with my “I am.” The amazing thing about our individualism is that although we are for now physical beings confined by both time and space, it seems as if God gave us the ability to rise above time and space and transcend whatever present reality we experience. We do this for example by creating memories, displaying and having children. The time gone by is kept alive by memories, and after our passing away we continue to project our self onto our children, friends and family. Of course as Christians we believe that we continue to exist after death into a spiritual body, and even though the physical body dies, our sense of identity transcends even death and continues on for eternity.
Jesus told the story of Lazarus and the rich man. Both men died and went to Hades, the rich into a place of torment, and Lazarus into a place of comfort. Both men were able to recognize each other. Although it is beyond our understanding of how this is possible, the sense of “I am” was strongly projected by both men even though their physical bodies were dead. We can therefore deduce from the parable that our sense of self has very little to do with the physical environment, and it has a lot to do with the unseen part of the human body, although one's soul, as Jesus showed in His parable still has a sense of self, therefore the soul and self should not be confused or used interchangeably.
Is it not true that as I previously showed, everything which was ever created first existed inside one's mind? Is it not true that even the universe, planet Earth and mankind first existed in the mind of God? Indeed, is it then not true that the ultimate display of “I am” is God creating man with a self-identity and the ability to transcend the physical environment by man himself saying “I am?” Would it then be harder for God to create a physical hunk of flesh and breathe life into it, or a being able to look at himself, identify himself from the rest of creation and say “I am?” I certainly hope I am not the only one seeing the vastly superior glory of God being displayed in a self-aware and free creation, rather than a creation already predisposed to be for or against God.
The sense of self-transcendence which I believe God instilled into us is also expressed by projecting our sense of individualism onto our children, families and society. Note that God deemed it necessary for Adam to have a mate. I do not wish to get into the communal importance of the “we are” societal identity, however I do want to point out that the strongly Calvinist churches of America who put so much emphasis on predestination are miserable failures when it comes to projecting a Christian sense of self onto the society.
One's sense of self can of course be affected by what he thinks. Fatalism is a strong characteristic of the American church, and as a result, self-fulfilled prophecies are causing Christians across the world to suffer both physically and spiritually, and I believe that the inability of Christians today to overcome a fatalistic worldview is based partially in the wide-spread of Calvinism.
Note how all points of the TULIP Calvinism have a negative aspect in one way or another:
Total depravity, or total inability and original sin – is a distortion of the fall, the curse, and today's world.
Unconditional Election – it automatically creates a concept of “others” which are viewed as evil outsiders, as profane individuals unworthy of God's love or election.
Limited atonement – it teaches that Christ only died for the elect and no one else.
Irresistible grace – the elect cannot resist the grace of God and have no choice in rejecting God.
Perseverance of the saints – it is impossible to lose your salvation. Nothing you can do can separate you from God.
Note the negativism in each point listed above, and note how each point in fact revolves around the rejection of a sense of self and personal identity. The TULIP points in Calvinism destroy the God-created distinctiveness in each of us, distinctiveness meant to separate us from the rest of the creation and ultimately glorify the Creator by giving us the freedom to make the choices He would want us to make, or reject the choices He would want us to make. The TULIP negativism projects both a Creator getting a sense of identity by forcefully manipulating his creation, and an imperfect, miserable and choice-less world heading for an inevitable end. Does this not sound familiar? Is this not the perfect excuse for Christians to avoid interaction with the world and ultimately create a sense of “we are?” Is TULIP Calvinism in fact not a direct contradiction of the Preterist position on the Kingdom of God ultimately encompassing the entire world, just like the stone in Daniel grew to a mountain encompassing the entire earth? Is TULIP Calvinism also not a contradiction of Revelation 11.15 which teaches us Preterists that “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ?” The negativism promoted by the TULIP Calvinism is simply inconsistent with the “I am” and “we are” sense of individual and social sense of awareness promoted by Preterism today.
As Preterists we understand that while we continue to experience what we perceive as negative events in our lives, with God, we have the ability to transcend negativism and magnify the glory of God in our lives and in the world. Without a sense of personal identity and individualism, we would be unable to overcome the world, and there would be no glory given to God when negative events become overwhelmingly positive, and when seemingly impossible things become reality.
The Question of Privacy
When we discuss the etymology of the word “person” we know that it is rooted in the two Latin words sonare, which means “to give a sound” and per, which means “through.” These two words give us the understanding that a person is one who “speaks through” as usually referred to in regards to Greek theatre actors who used masks to disguise their identities during a play. One would be hard pressed to find a more clear picture and description of a “person.” As individual beings going by through our lives, we use language to communicate our self to others and also hide our self from others. No matter how hard we try to project or hide ourselves we will fail, and something will always remain hidden inside our being.
What is fascinating about the question of privacy is that it also applies to God, probably because we were made in His image. In the deepest corners of our souls, mankind is “incommunicable.” There is a very real sense in which we are all alone and will always be alone in the world, be it in the midst of a crowd, or in the midst of the ocean. We simply know that we have a very exceptional relationship with ourselves, in that we know things about ourselves that no other man knows or will ever know. In the same manner, it is impossible for us to know the souls of other men and their secrets and desires. So then we can reasonably argue that we are free to choose the level of self we choose to reveal to the world around us, and perhaps even to God, unless of course God chooses to look for himself inside our hearts, which He can freely do. However, note how God related to Adam and Eve after they sinned against Him. He did not actively intrude into their lives, rather He asked “Where are you?” and requested an explanation for their actions.
Another noteworthy comment to be made is the insistence of today's Christians, who are mostly futurists, on the physical aspects of the Kingdom of God. I am convinced that these physical expectations are the ultimate cause of misunderstanding the necessity of humanity's self, and its existence.
You see, futurists today expect a physical, public and overwhelmingly extravagant coming of Christ – this physical event being tied directly into the senses of perception of the human body. The problem with this approach is that we know as Preterists that the Kingdom is not of this world, i.e. It cannot be detected with the four senses of the body. In the same manner, one cannot detect the existence of the self as if detecting a physical object. We can then deduce that our sense of self, as shown previously, is “made” of the same “stuff” of which the Kingdom of God is made, the stuff of the spiritual realm, and denying the existence of the self, is as if denying the existence of the Kingdom of God and its spiritual nature. Our sense of self is as real as the Kingdom of God, it can transcend time and space, it can transcend the negative world view created by futuristic Calvinism and it can provide real hope for salvation and a sense of self and worthiness to ALL mankind for eternity.
The Denial of Self
Interestingly enough, Buddhism also denies the self. The ultimate goal of Buddhism is to eliminate the self entirely and eliminate the existence of anything permanent like “the soul” or “the self” aiming to ultimately integrate all the senses of the body into the environment and find The Way through the extinction of the self and the unification with nature and the universe. Note the exclusive focus on the physical and bodily senses of perception.
David Hume also was one of the western philosophers denying the existence of the self, or at least attempting to explain it away as being related to the senses:
“When I enter most intimately into what I call myself, I always stumble on some particular perception or other, of heat or cold, light or shade, love or hatred, pain or pleasure. I never can catch myself at any time without a perception, and never can observe anything but the perceptions.” - David Hume, A Treatise of Human Nature, 534.
This ties nicely into the early church tendencies of self-denial, and punishment of the self. Because of the predisposition to believing in an active and victorious Satan in the world, some early Christians became monks (Martin Luther included) and lived lives of self-denial, attempting to defeat Satan and the desires of their bodies through physical punishment and self-inflicted pain. This is a sense of denying the self which has made it into the present, although most modern Calvinists want to have their cake and eat it too: recognize the total depravity of the world, but enjoy the full benefits of living in a free country such as the United States for example.
With this in mind, recall the very first point of the TULIP Calvinism: total depravity. What a striking similarity between heathens and Buddhists focusing entirely on their bodily senses to perceive physical reality, and the core concept of Calvinism which teaches that all creation is depraved and corrupt, thus giving someone a lens through which a distorted view of the world is presented. American Christians cannot continue to cry for freedom of religion and individual rights while teaching that everything has already been ordained one way or another. Their actions do not match their theology.
Conclusion
Because predestination and election deny the concept of self, and because Calvinism establishes a premise of a totally corrupt physical creation, it must be rejected by Preterists. Since we now understand the nature of Death occurring in Genesis 2, and since we understand the true nature of the curse, we can safely reject Calvinism together with all its points as just another piece of man-made doctrine which has no place in one’s heart. It is understandable why futurists would want to adopt Calvinism in the context of their eschatology, but there is no sense in Preterists teaching and adopting it, an especially making it into an issue of salvation and fellowship. If recognizing the Parousia of Christ as past or future is not an issue of salvation and fellowship for Preterists, why would predestination and election divide us Preterists? Only a fool would use predestination and election to split believers and create controversy. If we as Preterists worship with futurists and do not make the Parousia of Christ an issue of salvation of fellowship, why then is predestination and election an issue?
A rejection of Calvinism does not imply by any means a rejection of God's sovereignty, and God's sovereignty is not associated exclusively with the doctrine of Calvinism. In fact, free-will Preterism strongly reinforces the absolute sovereignty of God. I do not serve a God that intrudes into my self and rips out my thoughts, feelings, and memories.
Only the Creator of the universe, true God Himself would be the one able to keep all His promises, fulfill all His prophecies and offer free salvation to everyone willing. Loving the unlovable sinner, touching the untouchable profane by becoming a Self, Individualized Man, and ultimately expanding the walls of the heavenly tabernacle from Hebrews 9 to encompass the whole world, multiplies the sovereignty of God infinitely more than the doctrine of predestination and election will ever do. As Preterists we know that we all can right now become more like Him, but we also understand that we all right now still are.
It is evident so far that Calvinism robs man of the God-given sense of self, and the sense of spiritual realities given to man by God. Is it not more glorious for God to love a being who already rejected Him than to love a being already predestined to heaven or hell? And was it not the love of the father magnified so much more when he let his son choose to care for pigs, and lovingly accepted him when his son chose to come back?
Note: I want to thank Dr. Gary Percesepe for his book on philosophy which influenced a lot of my thinking. This article was heavily based on his chapter titled The Self as Mind, Body and Machine from Philosophy, An Introduction to the Labor of Reason.
Continue to Part 2 of this article
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Virgil Vaduva is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com.
View Virgil Vaduva archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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Re: Preterism and Calvinism: The Philosophical Argument - Part 1 (Score: 1)
by demario on Saturday, January 15 @ 10:03:58 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Since this is "Part 1," I'll reserve some comments. But you seem to be committing the same error of full preterist critics like Ken Gentry. While Ken starts with the creeds, a method that I reject, you begin with philosophy. While I am not opposed to philosophy, I would never use it as a starting point (1 Cor. 1:18-31).
I don't know what books you have been reading on this topic, but some of your preconditions are debatable. But I'll await future "parts."
Gary DeMar |
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- by Virgil on Saturday, January 15 @ 10:20:39 PST
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Re: Preterism and Calvinism: The Philosophical Argument - Part 1 (Score: 1)
by kfiech on Saturday, January 15 @ 12:48:50 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil,
I applaud you stepping out on a limb and starting to address the theology of Christianity. An eschatological system is not enough to sustain a genuine Christian life, as evidenced by the PlanetPreterist Forum's theological smorgasbord of thought.
Just as eschatology is either true or false, so is one's theology. The preterist view will only remain just an isolated viewpoint unless the other aspects of Christianity (epistomology, soterialogy, theology, etc.) are addressed and incorporated into the true Biblical worldview genuine Christians are striving to understand and apply in their lives.
Just two small points to begin debating your theological position.
1)You said, "I believe that the inability of Christians today to overcome a fatalistic worldview is based partially in the wide-spread of Calvinism."
Unfortunately, most Americans today do not know their history. Calvinism was one of the main reasons for the establishment of the United States and THE prevalent theology at that time. In fact, Calvin was referred to as "The father of the American Revolution." Your generalizing that widespread Calvinism was partially responsible for a fatalistic worldview does not square historically, especially in the beginnings of this country.
2) You said,"Note how all points of the TULIP Calvinism have a negative aspect in one way or another."
This sounds so familiar to the charges that anti-Christians make when they look at the "negativity" of the TEN COMMANDMENTS - "Thou salt NOT...."
Scriptural example, not human philosophy nor emotional reaction, is a more solid foundation from which to judge.
I'm looking forward to logical and reasoned debate as we sharpen each other as "iron sharpens iron."
Regards,
Kurt |
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- by Virgil on Saturday, January 15 @ 15:53:41 PST
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Preterism and Calvinism: Not a Problem (Score: 1)
by KingNeb on Saturday, January 15 @ 13:36:04 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil,
I am curious to know as to why you do not begin with the Scriptures? "Election" and "predestined" are certainly not words that Calvin made up - in essence, you are not really denying 'election', for that would be to deny the very wording of Paul.
Young's Literal - 1 Thessalonians 1:3-4 unceasingly remembering of you the work of the faith, and the labour of the love, and the endurance of the hope, of our Lord Jesus Christ, in the presence of our God and Father, 4 having known, brethren beloved, by God, your election,
What you are denying is a particular definition of the term. And so, i feel it would be of benefit if you specifically define those words and then Scripture will judge whether your definitions work or not.
Also, can you please give us your definition of 'free-will'.
I noticed too, that you treat 'election' and 'calvinism' as synonymous. That's unfortunate. As a Preterist, i not only embrace election, but find that Preterism enhances it. But i do not endorse everything calvin taught. In fact, I have probably only read about a page worth of Calvin, misc. quotes here and there.
Bottom line: God 'elects' people. God 'pre-destines' people. These are the very words of the Bible. What I would like to see from you is a definition of those terms.
Jason - www.christcovenantchurch.com
ps. it's unfortunate that a so-called 'calvinist' called you all those names - but ultimately, that has no bearing on the topic. |
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- by Virgil on Saturday, January 15 @ 15:58:42 PST
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Re: Preterism and Calvinism: The Philosophical Argument - Part 1 (Score: 1)
by Jer2329 on Saturday, January 15 @ 13:58:47 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Hi Virgil, :)
One can be imprisoned by sin and at the same time have a realization of “self.” The two states are not contradictory. “Self” does not mean “free-will agent.”
> However, note how God related to Adam and Eve
> after they sinned against Him. He did not
> actively intrude into their lives, rather He
> asked “Where are you?” and requested an
> explanation for their actions.
God forcefully banned their "selves" from His Presence. He _killed them on the inside_ by actively intruding into their lives. He made it 100% impossible for them to attain unto eternal, spiritual life (His Presence) unless and until God Himself would later enable them to do so by His regenerating / resurrecting grace.
You said that “free-will Preterism strongly reinforces the absolute sovereignty of God.” However, if God cannot “intrude” into our lives, then He is not "absolutely sovereign."
> …unless of course God chooses to look for
> himself inside our hearts, which He can
> freely do.
Then God can freely look, but He can’t freely touch, because that would be “intruding.” Yet He is "absolutely sovereign."
Why is it that if sinful Monet or Van Gogh sovereignly creates a painting that cannot change itself, the artist is praised for creatively expressing his “self,” but if the "absolutely sovereign" Maker of Heaven and Earth creates a man (a “vessel”) who cannot change himself apart from God, then God is condemned for “forcefully manipulating his creation?”
You said that God loves “the unlovable sinner.” However, if the sinner has enough of an inherently righteous “will” to trust in the incorruptible blood of Christ, then the sinner is certainly not “unlovable.” Only Calvinists believe that God loves “unlovable” (totally depraved and therefore totally alienated) sinners.
Regarding your use of the phrase “futuristic Calvinism:” The belief that the physical creation is “sin-stained” is not a necessary result of the five points of Calvinism. TULIP does not imply that house flies and maggots, for example, are the result of sin. Such “physical-is-sinful” reasoning is not the “core” of Calvinism; it is the core of futurism.
YB,
Dave :) |
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Re: Preterism and Calvinism: The Philosophical Argument - Part 1 (Score: 1)
by Parker on Saturday, January 15 @ 14:04:31 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Hi Virgil.
While we Catholics aren't TULIP Calvinists, we lean that direction with regard to understanding God's sovereignty.
But actually, I hesitate to get into these discussions because so many preterists here seem to believe a sort of post-everythingism where AD 70 was the true end of biblical theology. Rod and McPherson, for example, have a hermenutic that, when consistently applied, calls for the cessation of the Hebrew god, the New Covenant, the Church, the Kingdom, and even the endtimes letters themselves. So, how can anyone build a biblically based theology when biblical theology ended at AD 70? Obviously, one can't.
You sort of hinted at this approach by saying Calvinism is a "relic of futurism." That sentiment echoes McPherson's view from a previous article here. He basically said Calvinism was approximately correct for the AD 30-70 generation, but only for them. McPherson essentially has God and his ways sectioned off between the years AD 30-70. Instead, preterists should recognize the continuity of God throughout the covenant ages and also beyond the period of the written tradition. I have always thought it strange that many full preterists see the AD 30-70 religion as a temporal "transitional period" to close out the Mosaic era. This naturally leads to post-everythingism (no sacraments, no Church, no Holy Spirit, no salvation, etc.). Rather, those first followers of Christ were establishing the eternal New Covenant way of life and worship during AD 30-70.
Just a thought, |
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Re: Preterism and Calvinism: The Philosophical Argument - Part 1 (Score: 1)
by Erick on Saturday, January 15 @ 16:01:28 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | :^) Well, I agree with at least one statement:
“If we as Preterists worship with futurists and do not make the Parousia of Christ an issue of salvation of fellowship, why then is predestination and election an issue?”
But it seems to me that if “election” “predestination” etc. would somehow make God an unjust intruder into man’s freedom NOW, it would be the same in the first century, no?
I look forward to hearing the rest of your arguments, and thanks again for all the hard work you put into this site.
-Erick
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[No Subject] (Score: 1)
by PreteristAD70 on Saturday, January 15 @ 19:15:56 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil:
Have you read the entire Institutes of the Christian Religion?
--Mike |
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Re: Preterism and Calvinism: The Philosophical Argument - Part 1 (Score: 1)
by BillyVern on Saturday, January 15 @ 20:02:16 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil,
You ask for some controversy with your article.
Being a Christian does that.
I too believe Calvanism is terribly negative.
However, I do not think of the Ten Commandments as being negative.
Was God being negative in Gen. 4? If Cain would do what was right he would be accepted?
I cannot find victory in Calvanism, but Cain was offered victory.
Thank you Virgil, thank you. |
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- by kfiech on Saturday, January 15 @ 22:42:21 PST
Re: Preterism and Calvinism: The Philosophical Argument - Part 1 (Score: 1)
by davecollins on Saturday, January 15 @ 20:26:41 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Bro. Virgil writesThe TULIP negativism projects both a Creator getting a sense of identity by forcefully manipulating his creation, and an imperfect, miserable and choice-less world heading for an inevitable end. Does this not sound familiar? Is this not the perfect excuse for Christians to avoid interaction with the world and ultimately create a sense of “we are?” Is TULIP Calvinism in fact not a direct contradiction of the Preterist position on the Kingdom of God ultimately encompassing the entire world, just like the stone in Daniel grew to a mountain encompassing the entire earth? Is TULIP Calvinism also not a contradiction of Revelation 11.15 which teaches us Preterists that “The kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our Lord and His Christ?”
Dave replys; Virgil, it seems like your interpretation of Dan. and Revelation has led you to a Comp. Grace position:>)
Seriously, The issue comes down to the question of continuance past AD70 of the patterns firmly established in Biblical records.
The evidence for God's gracious choice is overwhelming in the OT and NT.
Obviously, one can be a full Preterist and a full Calvinist ( doctrines of grace) without viewing the whole system as negative, manipulative, miserable or futuristic. I was once lost and seperated by sin, now I am alive in Christ due to God's grace. That makes me a grateful and humble servant in God's completed salvation.
Regarding the promise of Christs Spiritual Kingdom in Daniel and Revelation...What Adam lost as the first man, Christ, the Life Giving Spirit regained as the 2nd Adam.
He reigns everywhere and His sovereign rule is known by the inhabitants of His New Jerusalem.
Those outside the gates are also in His Kingdom, though they do not know it yet, that is why we share the glorious gospel of redemption/restoration/ reconciliation in Christ.
Contrary to your conclusion and assumption, the vast majority of Calvinists I know are very faithful in sharing Christ. I think it is because they know that no one is beyond the reach of God's mercy.The elect are identified and converted thru the proclamation of the Word, just like in the transition period.
The "philosophy" is fine for poets and liberal professors, but not very relevent or weighty in theological discussions. I will wait to see your exegesis of the sure Word of scriptures on this issue.
I am truly sorry that another Christian would insult you with those derogatory words due to your differing view of soteriology. Your friend, dave
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- by Virgil on Sunday, January 16 @ 06:34:42 PST
- by davecollins on Sunday, January 16 @ 07:18:07 PST
- by armothe on Monday, January 17 @ 08:03:39 PST
- by davecollins on Monday, January 17 @ 14:43:31 PST
- by Virgil on Monday, January 17 @ 15:49:42 PST
- by armothe on Monday, January 17 @ 17:53:26 PST
- by davecollins on Monday, January 17 @ 20:02:58 PST
- by davo on Monday, January 17 @ 22:40:24 PST
- by davecollins on Tuesday, January 18 @ 16:07:22 PST
- by armothe on Tuesday, January 18 @ 04:51:36 PST
- by davecollins on Tuesday, January 18 @ 16:35:34 PST
- by Virgil on Tuesday, January 18 @ 12:08:12 PST
- by davecollins on Tuesday, January 18 @ 15:49:02 PST
Re: Preterism and Calvinism: The Philosophical Argument - Part 1 (Score: 1)
by Oz on Sunday, January 16 @ 10:00:03 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | [Virgil deleted a bunch of babble]
Also In Reference To Virgil’s Column Preterism and Calvinism: The Philosophical Argument - Part 1 – Virgil along with Terry Hall have sealed their own heretical fate. Terry Hall lost His congregation and filed for bankruptcy after pleading for money from Planet Preterist visitors, yet did Terry Hall keep that money when he was ousted from their meeting place (building/”church”), or did he return it to those whom gave before he filed for bankruptcy?
[Virgil deleted a bunch of babble] |
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- by Virgil on Sunday, January 16 @ 10:10:17 PST
Re: Still mulling (Score: 1)
by Roderick on Sunday, January 16 @ 12:38:54 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Virgil & others,
I'm still mulling this over. As you know, I consider myself "Calvinistic", so I'd like to interact in detail on your study here. But until then, I'd like to make some quick observations:
1. Calvin wasn't even alive when the so-called 5-points of Calvinism / TULIP were advocated. Rather, the so-called 5-points were drawn up at the Council of Dordt in 1618. John Calvin died in 1564. The 5-points were in response to the Arminian concept of free-will, which had 5-points of Remonstrance. It was the Arminian concept of free-will that was a new concept. The "Calvinist" concept had long been the "Protestant" concept of soteriology.
2. The idea that "following" Calvinistic concepts leads to a deadness toward affecting the world is an old and worn out accusation, because some of the most prolific "evangelists" through-out history have been "Calvinistic" -- Jonathan Edwards, C.H. Spurgeon, B.B. Warfield and lots more. I think there is a built in bias with preterists that are coming from a Church of Christ background - which is blantantly semi-pelagian / arminian, to the point that some CoC congregations teach that people can "lose their salvation", so much so, that if a person was to die without confessing a sin, though they had been faithful Christians most of their lives -- they would nevertheless go to Hell.
3. Preterism has great impacts on Ecclesiology, and Soteriology. We are just at the beginning of how all this will be played out. So, I appreciate Virgil's, Sam Frost's, John McPherson's studies on these issues.
Keep it up Virgil! I'll respond in more detail later.
In Christ gracious,
Roderick |
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- by Virgil on Sunday, January 16 @ 14:08:20 PST
- by DrDre on Sunday, January 16 @ 18:49:41 PST
- by Virgil on Sunday, January 16 @ 18:59:01 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Monday, January 17 @ 22:28:20 PST
- by DrDre on Tuesday, January 18 @ 02:14:22 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Tuesday, January 18 @ 11:42:37 PST
Re: Preterism and Calvinism: The Philosophical Argument - Part 1 (Score: 1)
by davo on Sunday, January 16 @ 22:36:29 PST (User Info | Send a Message) |
Virgil: That indeed is the question, and my answer is yes, ALL humanity has been reconciled to God, the kingdom of the world has become the Kingdom of our God, and the perfect has come in AD 70 and it now permeates all creation.
However, that does not mean everyone is saved, especially if you are presenting the argument from the free-will perspective. Some people can freely reject the new covenant of God and His presence. Compare what I am proposing with Israel entering the promised land. All Israel made it into the promised land, however not every Jew lived in covenant with God - not that although living out of covenant with God, they still enjoyed the benefits and promises of the promised land, i.e. the milk and honey promised to Moses.
Virgil, you're sounding dangerously more like Ed and myself – all have in deed been reconciled. This whole issue IMO is only an issue because the essence of "salvation" has been misunderstood and thus misconstrued. Salvation was never about us getting to Heaven – Jesus got all humanity there by virtue of His atoning death. Salvation was/is all about coming into the call of God for service – being saved to serve i.e., coming into the priesthood.
Thus the first-fruit elect were not elect to get to Heaven, but to minister the world shaking revelation that in Christ all have been [past tense] reconciled. Those who grasp/ed this message [by faith] enter/ed into eternal life i.e., a relationship with God in this life, which was and is a life of service, being priests [not in the "religious" sense] before God and unto our fellow man, imparting healing to the nations [Rev 22:2] – the everlasting Gospel [Rev 14:6] etc.
And further, on the point about Israel: all Israel, the good, the bad and the ugly, all were redeemed out of Egypt [bondage] without their consent; those of faith however entered into the greater blessing of God in the Land of Promise i.e., they were delivered more fully into His care, provision and purpose = salvation. That is the difference between redemption-reconciliation and that of salvation. All humanity is redeemed-reconciled, those of faith find salvation [eternal life], which is the life of service in Christ.
So from this perspective [pantelism] the Arminian-Calvinism debate becomes rather moot. I refer you back again to my article – Fulfilled Grace –
davo – pantelism.com – |
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- by Virgil on Monday, January 17 @ 05:41:46 PST
- by davecollins on Monday, January 17 @ 07:42:34 PST
- by Virgil on Monday, January 17 @ 07:55:05 PST
- by davecollins on Monday, January 17 @ 08:45:54 PST
- by davo on Monday, January 17 @ 20:44:44 PST
The Image of God (Score: 1)
by JL on Monday, January 17 @ 10:26:21 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | I don't see where Virgil began with philosophy. All I see is an illustration of his point using a poem in a philosophy book. Virgil used the illustration before he made his point. If Virgil just gave the simple one word Biblical answer (two words in English), people would be screaming at him for his "blasphemy."
What does it mean to be made in the image of God?
I AM.
This is the issue. Calvinism denies it. Calvinism claims, "I ain't." Calvinism claims that only God can say, "I AM."
God is the Great I AM. I am a little I AM. God was, is, and forever will be. As a created I AM, I am and forever will be.
I AM is not compatible with Calvinism.
JL
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- by KingNeb on Monday, January 17 @ 21:25:43 PST
- by JL on Tuesday, January 18 @ 15:25:11 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Monday, January 17 @ 22:30:57 PST
- by JL on Tuesday, January 18 @ 12:06:55 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Wednesday, January 19 @ 11:15:24 PST
- by JL on Thursday, January 20 @ 08:33:51 PST
Re: Preterism and Calvinism: The Philosophical Argument - Part 1 (Score: 1)
by SuperSoulFighter on Monday, January 17 @ 22:53:15 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | This is an excellent start, Virgil. You and I are in complete agreement, where Calvinism is concerned. I like your development of Calvinism's inherent philosophical weaknesses.
As I mentioned to JL, in my comment above - I wrote a paper in college on this subject. God as the Great "I AM" is the source of all identity. As such, He requires no qualifiers attached to His identity. He is simply "I AM" - not "I AM A SUPER-BEING WITH SUPERPOWERS" or something to that effect. All identity has its source in Him and the things He has brought into being. It's a profound Biblical and philosophical truth that Calvinism DOES undermine in its efforts to portray man's will as subverted and enslaved either by the "sin nature" or by God, in the case of those who are spiritually reborn. The "ego" or "self" is supposedly "crucified with Christ" therefore it is not I that lives, but Christ. He must increase and I must decrease, etc. etc. It's so easy to go all mystical when Calvinism is taken to its logical outcomes and extremes. But no-one really wants to go there!
Thanks again for re-introducing this topic for consideration and discussion. I hope you won't mind me addressing the "T" in TULIP in an article of my own here soon!
JM
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- by Virgil on Tuesday, January 18 @ 12:36:49 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Wednesday, January 19 @ 11:16:49 PST
Re: Preterism and Calvinism: The Philosophical Argument - Part 1 (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Tuesday, January 18 @ 01:41:21 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | 1 Peter 2
8and, “A stone that causes men to stumble
and a rock that makes them fall.”[a] They stumble because they disobey the message–which is also what they were destined for.
John 3
7You should not be surprised at my saying, ‘You must be born again.’ 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.” |
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- by Virgil on Tuesday, January 18 @ 04:45:21 PST
- by DrDre on Tuesday, January 18 @ 05:09:57 PST
Re: Preterism and Calvinism: The Philosophical Argument - Part 1 (Score: 1)
by davo on Wednesday, January 19 @ 06:06:31 PST (User Info | Send a Message) |
davecollins: With so much talk of flaming retribution, wrath of God, and vengence etc..it is hard for me to see "humanity restored, and now the people of God" understood by the first generation, or now.
As for "then or now" – I'm not all that surprised that "some" of the first century believers did not fully grasp the covenantal import of Christ's Parousia, some who hankered after the "consolation of Israel" no doubt still thought in rather concrete and literal terms e.g., Act 1:6; Jn 6:15.
Dave, how is it that you struggle to be consistent in your approach to Scripture? If you truly hold to a "fulfilled framework" then why is it that you cannot see that if "He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself" Heb 9:26b, that this can only mean sin no longer separates 'man' from God – is that not the relevance and reality of the Atonement, what Calvary was all about? – "Immanuel!! God with us" [Rev 21:3].
How is it that you would have the blood of bulls and goats covering the sins of Israel for 12 months, yet the blood of Christ being powerless to remove sins for 12 seconds? – being limited to a certain criteria. Dave, there's no doubt about it – obedient faith accesses the benefits of grace in this life. Jesus said: "Seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added unto you." Mt 6:33 – reading the context shows this to be "this worldly" in the here and now. Doing so is an act of faith, it brings much reward – that is the way of salvation – it is actively seeking out His righteousness in service, but that is not atonement. The atonement [reconciliation-redemption] was between Christ and God alone, on humanity's behalf, it covers all.
Interesting you should mention the wrath of God. The pręteristic equation gets somehow thrown out the window here. We gleefully acknowledge according to Mt 5:18 that the law must indeed be fulfilled in its entirety if the heaven and earth be passed away [understanding the covenantal nature of "heaven and earth"]. How then with any consistency do you hold to still yet more future wrath, all be it post mortem? What does Paul say:
Rom 4:15a "…the law worketh wrath…" Clearly, if there is still more divine wrath that Christ did not bear on the Cross then His mission was indeed somewhat impotent, and we are all still somewhat under the Law – it's the exact same scenario we spin to our futurist friends, can you not see it?. Of course I don't believe any of that for a moment, but it is the logical outcome of what you are believing.
1Jn 2:1 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.
It really isn't that hard to believe.
That neighbour you have been praying for for years is no less redeemed than you are, the only difference is he doesn't know it – go and tell him. If he can grasp it he may come into the call of God i.e., the priesthood, if not, rejoice anyway for he is as special to God as you are. All Israel was redeemed, the good, the bad and the ugly, yet she still had her priesthood [believers – the saved]. If you "really" believe in the unconditional love of God, then don't do the religious thing and put hurdles in front of him [Lk 11:52; Act 15:10], just love him as God already does in Christ, and tell him of it.
davo – pantelism.com –
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- by davecollins on Wednesday, January 19 @ 15:18:15 PST
- by davo on Thursday, January 20 @ 08:39:56 PST
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