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A second possibility concerns what is meant by the 'name of the beast.' I do not think it will be name of a specific man. . . This mark again might be a simple tattoo indicating that the bearer is a member of the Communist Party, and loyal to the antichrist.
-- Robert W. Faid
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Preterism: The Resurrection Part 2: Matthew 22, John 11, 1 Corinthians 6
Posted on Monday, September 06 @ 07:46:59 PDT by John |
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nate4onenation submitted: "2. Matthew 22, Mark 12, and Luke 20
The accounts in these gospels are so similar I will just use Matthew 22. The Sadducees were denying a resurrection. There is nothing in this passage that says they denied a physical resurrection only. They simply denied the dead rise at all. It is the same fight Paul fought in 1 Corinthians. There was an argument as to whether the dead rise. They were using the law to show how silly it is that there is a resurrection. Christ had a great response which took away their argument in 2 ways.
23 "The same day some Sadducees, who say there is no resurrection, came up to him and questioned Him.
There is nothing in this passage that says they supported a spiritual resurrection but denied a physical one. The Bible, in all instances concerning the Sadducees argument against a resurrection state they opposed the resurrection. Period.
24 "'Teacher, Moses said, if a man dies, having no children, his brother is to marry his wife and raise up offspring for his brother. 25 Now there were seven brothers among us. The first got married and died. Having no offspring, he left his wife to his brother. 26 Then the same happened to the second also, and the third, and so all seven. 27 Then last of all, the woman died. 28 Therefore in the resurrection, whose wife will she be of the seven? For they all had married her.'"
I think it is clear that the Sadducees believed the resurrection was a physical resurrection. That people would rise from the graves in a state like the one they entered. This is clear because they assumed life with marriage under the law would be resumed. It seemed a reasonable question based on the logic of a physical resurrection. Christ's response showed a number of ways how uneducated they were as to the nature of the resurrection.
29 "Jesus answered them, 'You are deceived, because you do not know the Scriptures or the power of God. 30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels in heaven. 31 Now concerning the resurrection of the dead, haven't you read what was spoken to you by God: 32 I am the God of Abraham and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob? He is not the God of the dead, but of the living.' 33 And when the crowds heard this, they were astonished at His teaching."
The typical argument here in support of a physical body resurrection is to say that the people are like "the angels in heaven" so Jesus could show them that they are not under the law. This simply does not fit. They questioned Christ as if a physical body resurrection posed problems concerning the law of Moses. So if Christ was disputing the law, why did He not say, "because they are no longer under the law?" Instead Christ chose to deal with the nature of the resurrected state by saying, "but are like the angels in heaven."
Physical body supporters say our body is like the body of Christ even though the scripture does not declare this. As we have showed the dead rise because Christ rose. Without Christ rising from the dead, the dead perish. As we have showed, the dead rise in the image of Christ, the heavenly man. Adam was made in the image of God but was not divine nor was God made of flesh. Here Christ is saying that the dead are like the angels when they rise. Was Christ like the angels when He rose? Again, the preterist is not the one who insists that the dead rise exactly like Christ. They themselves hate to say Christ was equal to the angels, they would not dare say that the believer is equal to the angels. We know Adam was not equal to God. The dispensationalist and the a/postmillennialists must consider these issues.
The other point Christ makes is that the God is the God of the living. He is saying that God would not call Himself the God of someone who was not to rise from the grave. Christ is affirming that God will raise Abraham, Isaac and Jacob from the dead based on the His words. If the Sadducees doubted the resurrection, they doubted the validity of the word of God and the power of God. God is able to make the dead rise, and they would be like the angels in heaven. Christ makes a statement of the nature of the resurrection and then He affirms the fact God will raise Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is impossible that they had already rose because Christ is the firstborn from the dead according to scripture. Christ was affirming by the word of God that the dead will rise. Again, no spirits with God before the resurrection day.
3. John 11
It has been made clear that the dead are not in heaven until resurrection day. As I have shown earlier, Paul taught that salvation was a future hope. Paul taught that if resurrection day was not coming, then they might as well continue in their sins. Paul taught that the saying "O Death, where is your victory. O Death, where is your sting," is not a true statement until the dead are raised. Christ showed that the dead do rise because God would not consider Himself the God of dead men. We know that Christ still understood that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were dead at the time because Christ was to be the first born of the dead. Therefore, Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were still waiting for resurrection day, which was consistent with Paul's teaching.
John 11 addresses the same aspect. Christ is assured that the resurrection of the dead is true and He taught that it was only possible through Him. The sisters of Lazarus were sure their brother was dead but their faith was steadfast in the fact he would rise on the last day. They get this idea from Daniel who was told he would rise on the last day. Christ did not contradict her, but He chose to display His power as a sign to the truth of His word, that the dead only rise because He is the Son of God.
17 "When Jesus arrived, He found Lazarus had already been in the tomb for 4 days. 18 Bethany was near Jerusalem (about two miles away). 19 Many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary to comfort them about their brother. 20 As soon as Martha heard that Jesus was coming, she went near to meet Him. But Mary remained seated in the house. 21 Then Martha said to Jesus, 'Lord, if you had been here, my brother would not have died. 22 Yet even now I know that whatever you ask from God, God will give to you.' 23 'Your brother will rise again,' Jesus said. 24 Martha said, 'I know that he will rise again in the resurrection at the last day.'"
A couple extraordinary things were said here. Martha showed her complete faith in Christ and His relationship with the Father. She knew nothing was beyond His power. It is interesting though that she seemed to not expect Christ to make Lazarus rise at that present time. She demonstrates this when Christ assures her he will rise and she assumes He is referring to a resurrection on the last day. The same day Daniel was to rise. Christ's response is one of assurance that it will be through Him that all men rise.
25 "Jesus said to her, 'I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me, even if he dies, will live. 26 Everyone who lives, and believes in me, will never die. Do you believe this?'"
Christ makes a peculiar statement here. He says that those who believe in Him will never die. However Mary and Martha and their brother believed and still died. Paul taught that the dead have perished if there is no resurrection on the last day. Christ was the first born from the dead yet that had not occurred yet. It is clear that this was a statement He made to tell her she was to have faith in Him. It is clear that He is saying the resurrection of the last day is through His power. This is also an area where Christ directly addresses life after the resurrection day, which I will cover later. The point is that even though Christ spoke this in His present time, it is clear Biblically that it was a fact that would not be true until later. They were to hold on to His assurance by faith.
In the verses to follow Christ arrives at the mourning party and begins to mourn Himself. I am not going to cover these verses like the others however it is clear, based on His actions and the fact that Lazarus' death continued to anger Him, that Christ had not, from the start, intended to raise Lazarus at all. This is the famous chapter where Christ wept. I submit the Lord would not have been sad at all if He had intended to have Lazarus raise from the beginning. The verses that cover the event of the resurrection itself are interesting and I will cover them now.
38 "The Jesus, angry in Himself again, came to the tomb. It was a cave, and a stone was laying against it. 39 'Remove the stone,' Jesus said. Martha, the dead mans sister, told Him, 'Lord, he already stinks. It's been four days.' 40 Jesus said to her, 'Didn't I tell you that if you believed you would see the glory of God?' 41 So they removed the stone. Then Jesus raised His eyes and said, 'Father, I thank You that You heard Me. 42 I know that You always hear Me, but because of the crowd standing here I said this, so they may believe you sent me.' 43 After He said this, He shouted with a loud voice, 'Lazarus come out!' 44 The dead came out bound hand and foot with linen strips and with his face wrapped in a cloth. Jesus said to them, 'Loose him and let him go.'"
The events recorded here showed Christ telling them to remove the stone. Martha had already showed the faith required in Christ. When Christ responded to her, He was telling her that her faith she professed, would now be proven assured. She had believed He was the Messiah and He was the resurrection and the life. He was not reprimanding her because of disbelief; she had just simply told him that her brother stank. It is clear Christ told her that He could take care of that issue as well. He had all the power.
In Christ's prayer, which was public, He said He prayed so that they would know that His power came from the Father. That He did his actions of raising Lazarus only because the Father sent Him. The raising of Lazarus, though a personal request of a grieving Christ, was also a sign that Christ has the power to raise the dead. Lazarus rose as a sign.
The story ends here. There is nothing in this story that declares that the resurrection on the last day is a resurrection of the physical body. If Lazarus was in his final resurrection state, then he would have been the first born of the dead. This is not the case. The status of first born of the dead is Christ's alone. This simply was sign that through Christ, the dead will rise. It says nothing as to the final state of resurrection. Only that the dead do raise.
4. 1 Corinthians 6
This chapter gives us another idea as to the nature of the body of a resurrected believer. It deals with the sin of sexual immorality and declares certain truths about the nature of the resurrected body and the relationship one has with the Lord.
12 "'Everything is permissible for me,' but not everything is helpful. 'Everything is permissible for me,' but I will not be brought under the control of anything. 13 'Foods for the stomach and the stomach for foods,' but God will do away with both of them. The body is not for sexual immorality but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body. 14 God raised up the Lord and will raise us up by His power.
Numerous statements are made here. Paul is battling immorality in the church. It is clear that the church in Corinth was overstepping their "freedom" by sinning against the body. Paul excuses the eating of foods, in this case, because nothing a man can eat sins against the body. However he goes on to say that sexual immorality does sin against the body because the body is for the Lord.
How can one eat junk food and get fat and not sin against the body? If this is the body Paul is referring to, the physical body, how come there is nothing we consume that can sin against the body? It is clear that Paul says that God will do away with the body. Our resurrected body does not have a stomach. If we rise in a physical body why does the stomach disappear from our new state? Don't we need to have communion with the Lord at the marriage supper of the Lamb?
The interesting part of this is Paul says that no food can sin against the body but sexual immorality does. He stresses the importance of sinning against the body with sexual immorality because the body will be raised. The contrasts between the physical body and the spiritual body are made later in this chapter. Paul uses marriage to show what type of body He is discussing.
15 "Do you not know that your bodies are the members of Christ? So should I take the members of Christ and make them members of a prostitute? Absolutely not! Do you not know that anyone joined to a prostitute is one body with her? For it says' 'The two will become one flesh.' 17 But anyone joined to the Lord is one spirit with Him."
The body Paul is referring to, that Paul says will rise, cannot mean a physical body. He says that the food, which is physical, is for the stomach, which is physical, and both will be destroyed. Paul then says the body will be raised, and since they are joined in Spirit with the Lord, like a married couple (the bride of Christ), they are not to commit sexual immorality and become one with prostitutes.
In the teachings of marriage we know that two who come together in sexual relations are made one in their soul. Their spirits are joined in a marital union. When someone commits sexual immorality, they sin against that union. If someone commits sexual immorality with a virgin, do they sin against the flesh if their flesh is in no danger of contracting a disease? Is the flesh damaged? Just like with food, it is not the outward act that causes sin against a physical body. It is the spiritual union with someone other than your wife that is sin against the body. The body that two married couple has made together is affected.
Sexual immorality sins against the one spirit that a Christian has with the Lord, according to Paul. Food does not interfere with the relationship with the Lord. it is the reason Gentiles did not have to abstain from pork. God made all creation good and worthy to eat. Eating foods and drinking wine does not sin against the body. The body Paul is concerned with is the one spirit with the Lord. Sexual immorality sins against the soul. We commit adultery on the Lord when we commit fornication in this life. We have left our one spirit union with Him and joined ourselves with a prostitute in sin. Therefore we sin against the body!
18 Flee sexual immorality! 'Every sin a person can commit is outside the body,' but the person who is sexually immoral sins against his own body. 19 Do you not know that your body is the sanctuary of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God? You are not your own, 20 for you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body."
Paul has already showed it is not the physical body that is affected by the sin of sexual immorality. It is the union with the wife and in this case, with the Lord, that is damaged in the act of sexual immorality.
Showing us the nature of the body in which a marriage inhabits shows us the nature of the body that will rise. Sinning against the body through sexual immorality is a spiritual reality. It is the spiritual body, the soul of a man, which was to rise on resurrection day."
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Re: The Resurrection Part 2: Matthew 22, John 11, 1 Corinthians 6 (Score: 1)
 by Zorro on Monday, September 06 @ 09:48:58 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | 'The Sadducees were denying a resurrection. There is nothing in this passage that says they denied a physical resurrection only. They simply denied the dead rise at all. It is the same fight Paul fought in 1 Corinthians.'
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That's nonsense. The Sadducees did not believe in the immortality of the soul. In short, they believed in anniliation of body and soul. Making Paul one of them is utter ignorance parading itself as wisdom.
So your first premise is baloney, the rest that follows is just more baloney. |
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- by nate4onenation on Monday, September 06 @ 10:42:59 PDT
- by blackpreterist on Monday, September 06 @ 11:19:38 PDT
- by Zorro on Monday, September 06 @ 12:29:19 PDT
- by nate4onenation on Tuesday, September 07 @ 11:44:14 PDT
- by blackpreterist on Tuesday, September 07 @ 12:49:33 PDT
- by SuperSoulFighter on Tuesday, September 07 @ 22:41:19 PDT
- by blackpreterist on Wednesday, September 08 @ 03:32:20 PDT
- by SuperSoulFighter on Wednesday, September 08 @ 13:19:51 PDT
- by blackpreterist on Thursday, September 09 @ 15:24:26 PDT
- by Virgil on Monday, September 06 @ 13:43:28 PDT
- by Zorro on Monday, September 06 @ 15:51:01 PDT
The Flesh (Score: 1)
by nate4onenation on Tuesday, September 07 @ 11:47:58 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | THIS ONE NEEDS TO BE THOUGHT AND ANSWERED BY ALL. Here is my take...
Nice one Zorro. Seriously a good response (finally).
You are a partial preterist, right? So the interpretation of the "stars falling from heaven" and such can be explained by a nation rising and conquering another nation, right?
Stars falling represents the fall of the proud who have exhalted themselves to the place above God Himself, so the stars falling, represent judgment against those nations, right?
Why do partial preterists stop their good hermenutics at just these things? For scripture surely interprets scripture in ALL areas, my friend.
Job19:26
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Paul addressed this EXACT hope this way. By defining the "FLESH!"
1 Cor 15:39
All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men *, another flesh of beasts *, another of fishes, and another of birds.
15:40
There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
15:41
There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
15:42
So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
15:43
It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
15:44
It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
Sounds a lot like Job.
the skin decays, eaten by worms, but the flesh (like Paul says is not all the same) will see God.
THE SPIRITUAL BODY is called flesh, but the physical body is said to rot by both Job and Paul.
What is your problem with seeing this!!!
God Bless
Nate |
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- by Zorro on Tuesday, September 07 @ 17:37:16 PDT
- by Ozark on Tuesday, September 07 @ 18:56:58 PDT
- by Zorro on Tuesday, September 07 @ 19:23:12 PDT
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- by Zorro on Thursday, September 09 @ 06:16:59 PDT
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- by PreteristAD70 on Thursday, September 09 @ 06:12:54 PDT
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The (Score: 1)
by nate4onenation on Wednesday, September 08 @ 08:40:16 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Zorro,
Why was Adam made in the "image of God" but not exactly like God?
Paul says we would be in the image of the heavenly man. Why does that mean "exactly like" Christ?
Can something be "like" something else but not to the exact scale and fullness? There are lots of verses that say "like."
They would rise "like" Him, would have bodies "like Him. Yet no one is divine like Him nor will we all bear the scars of our death, like Him.
What BIBLICAL EVIDENCE do you have to measure your idea of "like." Because my idea of 'Like" I do my best to keep in the Biblical context.
They rise because He did. They are spiritual as He was. They bore His image. None of these are disputed. We simply do not find scripture in support of your claim that "like" means "exactly like" and in fact, we see scriptural referrence to the opposite.
Can you address this?
Thanks
God Bless
Nate |
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- by Zorro on Wednesday, September 08 @ 22:12:32 PDT
- by Seeker on Wednesday, September 15 @ 19:47:29 PDT
The Result (Score: 1)
by nate4onenation on Thursday, September 09 @ 12:04:04 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | This is not the last of the studies I have done, however the last of the ones that were to specifically refute a "physical body" resurrection.
There is no proof in the scripture to say the "physical" body must rise, and to support that position, the partial-preterist must abandon all his logic and reason and scripture interpreting scripture rules to prove it.
Attack after attack result in name calling and destiny pointing.
The failure of the partial-preterist to grasp the truth of scripture through so much Biblical refutation IS very kin to the way the Jews rejected Christ.
Time after time He spoke out against their judgmental attitude and faith in their outward appearance and physical manifestations of the law. They were foolish because they were blind to the spiritual realities that Hebrews so well documents for us. It was the soul of a man that concerned God. It is the soul of a man that is a man.
We have many WHITE WASHED TOMBS in the church today. Who would re-crucify the Lord if He were to reappear Himself and tell them that the resurrection is past. They would lynch Him, because like the Jew, they are too in love with their flesh. It is more heartbreaking and sadly pathetic than angering.
Their system is vanishing as well. There is nothing they can do to turn the tide of the Truth. I just hope God opens their eyes sooner than later.
God Bless
Nate |
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- by Zorro on Thursday, September 09 @ 15:31:36 PDT
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