If you have “leaders” (which Roderick does), then who are they? What “credentials” or “character issues” do they have that make them “leaders?” The term for “leader” in the letters of Paul is the verb ‘proistemi.’ It is found in I Thess. 5.12, for example. Paul, there, says to honor those who “work among you” and who “lead you.” Thus, from a scriptural standpoint, a “leader” (“one who leads”) implies “those who are the led.” That’s just simple deductive logic. In Romans 12.4-8, Paul expounds on the “body of Christ” being “many members” but only “one body.” Roderick agrees with the proposition that the “body of Christ” continues into the “age to come” here on earth. However, what Roderick must do with Romans 12.4-8 is state that God is no longer giving “gifts” (12.6) to this “body.” Now, Paul mentions “prophecy” as one of these gifts, and we know, specifically, that “prophecy shall cease” (I Cor 13.8). However, (and this is the logical point), just because one gift ceases, does that mean all gifts cease?

Let me put this in logical terms (borrowed from 19th century theologian James Bannerman, Edinburgh). In logical inferences, “some A is not B” does not, nor can it ever, imply “No A is B.” That is, “Some dogs are not poodles” cannot ever mean, “no dogs are poodles.” Thus, “some gifts are not given today” cannot ever imply “no gifts are given today.” That would be a logically invalid conclusion.

Now, the “gifts” (charismata – Greek) that God gives “according to the grace” (grace continues in the “age to come” does it not?) are “prophecy, service (diakonia – from which we get “deacon” from), teacher, encourager, charitable givers, and leaders (proistemi – same word in I Thess 5.12, above). Now, if Roderick believes that “teachers” exist today (that is, people who teach, for Paul says if your gift is “teaching” then “in the teaching” you operate your gift), then are they “gifted?” If we have “leaders” today, are they “gifted?” If we have those who have a heart to “give” and make it a huge part of their life, are they “gifted” by God to be that way in both mind and heart? How about “service?” Has “service” ceased after A.D. 70? Had “giving?”

What one is forced to do is to say that the “gift” of being a “leader” as ceased, but being a leader has not. Again, the “gift” of being a “giver” has ceased, but “giving” has not. But, how does that apply to the “prophet?” The “gift” of “prophet” has ceased, but not “prophesying.” Make sense? Of course not. What one ends up with is a God that equipped with heavenly gifts according to his grace only those who were just lucky enough to live in that generation. As for us, forget about it. In fact, God’s word does not have that much to say at all about how his Wife would live in the “age to come.” Is this really the Preterist conclusion? The Body came in with a bang and remains with a “huh – now what?”

Now, in expositing the Scriptures, and using logic to do so, the important point made above was that just because “some” gifts have ceased does not mean “all” have ceased. “Prophecy” is specifically mentioned to have “ceased.” “Tongues” is specifically stated to have ceased as well. “Circumcision” and “animal sacrifices” and a priesthood “according to the flesh” and “genealogy” is said to have “ceased” as well. These are all very specific things that would no longer continue to be an issue in the “age to come” body of Christ. That is why there is no argument between Roderick and myself as to whether or not we should still sacrifice animals today, or circumcise Gentiles, or what meat we can eat on what day, or whether or not I can get gas on Sabbath. There is no argument between us, here. Why? Because the Bible is explicit on this matter.

What Roderick is positing to have ceased are “pastors” and “teachers” who “lead” congregations (assemblies, fellowships, officially held, or called meetings of God’s people). Also, there are no more “deacons” and there are no more “elders.” There is no more requirement to meet regularly, to sing together, to fellowship or do the other things that Christians who like these things do. That is, it is no longer necessary. For Roderick, you can do it if you want, but it not necessary to fellowship with one another on a regular basis. More clarity is needed here: it is no longer a commandment or an issue of obedience to God that we submit to anyone we think is worthy of submitting to in order to bring about by communal efforts the message of the consummated kingdom of God. Church, today, in the age to come, is simply a “take it or leave it” thing. You, after all, are a “member” of the “body of Christ” by virtue of your faith. Therefore, you do not need to “meet” with anyone, be taught by anyone, submit to anyone, or really do anything with any other Christian if you don’t want to. If you want to, fine. If not, fine.

That is the logical conclusion of Roderick’s position. But, has he based this on sound biblical hermeneutics? Has he truly shown, as clearly as animal sacrifices no longer being a requirement, that meeting with an organized fellowship that exists under elected “leaders” is no longer a necessity for the 21st century church? I do not think he has come anywhere near it.

However, his main text, his “proof-text,” is Ephesians 4.11-13. I exhort you patient readers to bear the fruit of patience in this discussion and allow me to apply the same logic above to this passage. The position is “no gifts at all are given by God anymore” versus “some gifts are given by God today.” If Roderick argues that “some” are given, then he must, from the Bible, list the ones he thinks are still given. If none are given, the no one, and I mean no one, can claim to be a “teacher” or a “servant” in the biblical sense, for “servants” are “gifted” by God as Paul plainly tells us in Romans 12.

Paul lists “apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.” I take the view that “pastor and teacher” is the same office (the Greek tends to bear this out, as well). How can one “pastor” and not “teach?” Regardless, these four “offices,” Roderick claims, have all ceased. We noted that in Romans 12 Paul lists both “prophets” and “teachers” but he also lists “servants” (diaconates) and “givers.” Roderick, to be consistent, would have to argue that “all gifts whatsoever” have ceased. What I stated above in Romans 12 applies here as well. Just because “some” have ceased does not mean “all” have ceased, nor can it, if one be logical. Thus, “apostles, prophets” may have ceased, but does that mean “evangelists, pastors and teachers” have ceased? Based on a logical argument, it would be impossible to argue this conclusion.

However, Paul goes further. These “offices” will continue to minister to the church “until” (mechri – Greek) it “comes to the unity of the faith.” This is for “the equipping of the saints for works of service (diakonas – Greek), for the building up of the body until we all arrive at the uniting of the faith.” Roderick reasons that since the “body” has come to the uniting of the faith, then the four-fold offices have ceased.

Now, I agree that God brought the body of Christ into its “fullness” of “salvation” and unto the “perfect man” (which, Paul expounded previously on in Eph 2.11-22). But, it is illogical to conclude that every “gift” Paul mentions in this text has ceased just because the goal has been reached. Paul himself has already, twice, separated ‘apostles and prophets’ from the other two offices, and Roderick even does this himself in his article against our position. First, Paul calls himself ‘an apostle’ in Eph 1.1 called by the will of God. Then, in 2.20 he states that the ‘foundation’ of the church is built on the ‘apostles and prophets.’ Notice what he does NOT say. He does NOT say ‘built upon the foundation of the apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors and teachers.’ Again, in 3.5 he only mentions ‘apostles and prophets’ to whom the message has ‘been revealed.’ Paul, in turn, “wrote” this message down (3.4). This is Paul’s claim for revelational inspiration. Now, is ‘revelation’ said to have specifically ‘ceased?’ Yes. Even the Charismatics, who I grew up with, never put on par their own ‘private revelations’ with Scripture! Revelation has ceased. God is no longer writing the Bible. The Pope does not have the gift to speak ‘ex cathedra’ (from the throne). We all agree on this in the Preterist camp.

Now, if Paul is singling out the prophet and apostle (which he does), and the apostle and prophet, speaking the words of God in revelation with the ability to write those words down which the church universal has recognized as inspired utterances of God Himself, then, does that mean that just because “some” gifts have ceased (apostles and prophets) “all” gifts have ceased (evangelists, pastors and teachers)? Logically, one could not infer this. The offices were all WORKING TOGETHER until the body was mature. Once the body was mature, then ALL offices no longer WORK TOGETHER for this capacity, but this is far cry from saying that ALL OFFICES CEASE after the accomplished goal is finished! Notice, also, that the ‘walls of the City [New Jerusalem] had twelve FOUNDATIONS, and on them were the names of twelve APOSTLES of the Lamb’ (Rev 21.14). Clearly, the FOUDATION, once laid, needs no longer laid. But, how Roderick gets from that that are no more pastors, elders, deacons, deaconesses, teachers, or evangelists is beyond me.

Let me give you an example from ordinary life. In school, one is trained by several teachers, teaching various subjects. At first, one needs a great deal of teachers. However, as one goes through the process of schooling and education, the need for as many teachers begins to decline because a strong FOUNDATION has been laid. By the time you hit Ph.D. work, you are mature enough to do research yourself, because you have mastered a great deal of material and have no more need of someone teaching you remedial theology. You are now functioning as a mature man. However, does that mean that “all” teachers be rejected just because some are. Does becoming mature and able mean that “mom” is no longer needed, or “dad?” Likewise, when the church became mature and able to handle its own without the babysitting of apostles and prophets hand delivering them directly from God his words, does that mean that we throw off those who would maintain the foundation once laid?

Roderick uses the example of a house, and once the house is built, you no longer need plumbers around. I don’t know what house he is referring to, but I need to occasionally call a plumber and a painter, and a landscaper, and a carpenter and a bug guy. Houses need maintenance, do they not? When Solomon built the Temple, did the services cease? No. Did the priesthood? No. Did the horn players? No. Did the workers and servants of the Temple go home? No.

When I argue, then, that Paul was speaking of the “household of God” and how we are to “direct the affairs” within that household, it is plain that Paul wrote from the perspective of a completed edifice. It “is” the household of God, not “it is becoming the household of God.” Paul wrote from the aspect of realization, and while entertaining the completed house, he wrote to Timothy how and who ought to conduct the affairs of that completed house. Houses, in Roman times, had servants that ran the house. Much like butlers or maids. That is what ministers are. Servants. They are butlers and maids, serving at the bequest of the saints, giving, sacrificing, studying, laboring in the Scripture, and disciplining their lives to be good, honest, upright citizens. They are “leaders” to be sure, and they are “gifted” to be sure, but they are “gifted” to be walked on, used, abused, spoken evil against, maligned, betrayed, tempted, and put through the ringer. They are not “gifted” to lord it over, use, malign, abuse, speak evil against, commit acts of fornication against or degrade those in whose care they are over. There are some men that do this. There were some Popes that did this. There are some self-proclaimed priests, prophets, and deacons. There are, even, some self-proclaimed Christians! Maybe, using Roderick’s logic, we should not “submit” to another Christian in fear that they are merely “self-proclaimed” Christians “gifted” with the salvation of God! Does Preterism free us from fellowship? Does it free us from congregations singing together in unity the glories of Jesus and his consummated kingdom? Does it free us from hearing wonderful sermons and lectures that stir hearts into action and contemplation of God’s kingdom and work? Is that what it frees us from? Is that the message of Preterism: “Hey, good news, you don’t have to sit in a pew anymore and try to get along peacefully with sister Betty and her fat kids. You are on your own now!” If that is the message and conclusion of Preterism, you can have it, folks – I don’t want anything to do with it. It is not of God.

Roderick remarked that the body of Christ continues in the age to come but that it is different now. I agree. He makes us choose between the Roman Catholic Church or Roderick’s own vision. That’s a false disjunction. In fact, he is using a Roman Catholic argument! Roman apologetes argue that if you do not have ‘succession’ of elders, then you cannot be a New Testament Church. Therefore, you are left with Roderick’s view of a leaderless “church” (whatever that is), or the Roman Catholic Church. Are these the only two choices you, the Preterist, have? Luther said, “no.” Calvin said, “no.” Bannerman said, “no.” Charles Wesley said, “no.” Spurgeon said, “no.” Arguments of this sort are fallacies. And, I have yet to hear of any logical or exegetical reason from the Scriptures that these, indeed, are the ONLY two choices you have.

There is another biblical alternative that does not rest on illogical arguments and half quoted texts. I am not a Roman Catholic (though I respect them). I endorse church meetings on a regular basis. If you don’t have a Preterist fellowship, find a church of brothers and sisters that will have you and serve them as the family of God. If you think that they are wrong, then you have just butted yourself out of the kingdom, for you are occasionally wrong, too! That’s why Jesus came! If you think the church is full of sinners and hypocrites who can’t get it right, join the club – that’s why Christ died. What, are you better than us sinners and half-witted goofballs? SERVICE IS THE KINGDOM ETHIC. God commands service. If you think that you desire to start a Preterist church in your area from a small Bible study, go for it. I’ll help you do it in whatever way I can. The more Preterist churches, the better! Let’s not let the “anti-organization” crowd mess up what God has started and what has the full potential of growth. Rather, let us rally behind one another and BUILD on the ALREADY BUILT foundation of God.

The difference, in response to above, between what you will hear from Paul and what you will hear from me is that I, Samuel Frost, do not claim “inspiration.” Paul did. I do not claim that “the day is nearer now than when we first believed.” Paul did. I do not teach the congregation to “eagerly expect the coming of the Lord.” Paul did. I do not “look forward” to a “heavenly city.” Paul did. I teach and encourage all that we are IN the heavenly city, and therefore, we are to all WALK accordingly by mutually submitting to one another, strengthening our families, learning patience, tolerance, and the kingdom values of love. We sing together, fellowship together, eat together, rebuke one another, correct each other, pool our finances together to build something in the community that might attract others on the “outside” to “come in and drink” on the inside. Two is better than one person, and forty is better than two. Together, functioning together, building together, outreaching together, serving one another in a regularly appointed fashion takes time, energy, money, effort, hard work. It takes education and labor. But, when done the way it should be done, when done from the perspective of the CONSUMMATED KINGDOM of God, the COMPLETE work of Jesus Christ, then it is a JOY.

The “difference” between an elder (one who governs the affairs of God’s people and their meetings, times, fellowships, mobilizing them for enlarging the kingdom to all nations – to their local communities) and an “apostle” is quite evident. Paul could write, ‘an apostle, called by the will of God not any man.’ An elder is called by God, but is confirmed in his called by men. God directly, visibly, called the apostles. This is not the case in the NT for elders, nor is it anywhere stated. Rather, ‘if ANYONE sets his own heart on being an overseer, he desires a noble task’ (I Tim 3.1). Now, do you find “if only the called who have six Masters degrees and have had a divine vision of God calling them into ministry sets their hearts…?” Is that what is said? Who “sets their hearts?” The subject of the verb is the ‘anyone.’ If that person sets his own heart to be an overseer, the HE DESIRES a noble thing.’ Roderick is saying that even to “desire” this and “set your heart” on doing what it entails, is wrong. It is not a noble task. It is, in his view, an unnecessary task. Anyone who thinks that they have set their hearts on being an overseer and desires to be an overseer (call them leaders, call them whatever), is simply “self proclaimed.” But, is not the person in this text setting his OWN heart? Is he not desiring himself to be something? Sure, he will proclaim his desire of what he wants to be. But, that will require qualifications (I Tim 3.2-7). In other words, what he has self proclaimed as to his desire must be tested BY OTHERS to CONFIRM and AFFIRM that, indeed, he is worthy to the task. Roderick cannot have any of this in the age to come church. I am at a loss as to why anyone would object to such a thing. Is it because there have been abuses? Is that it? Overcome the abuses with GOOD LEADERS. Don’t shuck the entire program! Do it BETTER!

Roderick might think that at this point I am being “emotional.” Well, I am! I have grown in the last two years by serving this church that allows me the full-time status of “laboring in the Scripture” than I have in all the years of my Christian life. That’s what like-minded fellowship does. I am above no one. My appointed calling as a teaching elder that pastors (along with the other appointed elders and deacon) does not mean I am inspired or that I have taken the place of Jesus (that’s absurd and indeed illogical to even imagine). Rather, shepherds point to Jesus, the way the shepherds in the field pointed to the star of Bethlehem. “There’s the Light. There is your Head. He is your King!.” Ask anyone in our church if I am “lord” or “ruler” or “mega-pastor” with a strong will and dominating attitude. They are my proof. I am a person that has weaknesses, frailties, strengths and giftings (sounds like anyone else). I desired all of my life to rule WELL in the house of God’s people. According to Paul, I desired “a noble thing.” God has answered my prayers. I went from a janitor with a Masters degree to an ordained pastor! Just like that! I sold my business and moved my family in order to show that I was serious about building something that reflected the completed work of Christ. I made a huge sacrifice and my family made a huge sacrifice. And God has blessed us beyond anything we imagined with a congregation of young and old alike. And we are growing! The word is getting out! I am being honest in this article in that I made that move to this congregation long before I ever heard of Roderick Edwards. I had considered the possibility that such a thing was a useless enterprise. I mean, the janitorial business was far, far more lucrative than a tiny church pastor’s salary (which is open to anyone who wants to know how much I make – ask me personally – since we make known every dime that comes in a monthly statement – and every dime that goes out). This was my conviction based on the Scriptures and a Preterist understanding for over 13 years. So, yes, I take it personally. Sorry if that offends anyone.

People have come in and said, “you are not like other churches. It is much more relaxing here. There is no show or pomp.” Or, “you sure do teach the Bible. I have never heard anything like this in all my years.” I could go on. But, I could go on talking about the people of Christ Covenant Church all day and all night.

Now, if it angers you that I call myself a “pastor” and an “elder” and a “teacher,” then okay. I guess you will have to be angry and love me anyway. I will continue to do what I believe God has told me to do, and what I believe is so clearly set down by Scripture and guided by the words of the Holy Apostles of our faith that gave instructions for how the church in the age to come should be managed. If that bothers some, so be it. It does not bother me in the least. God continues to bless us. I have bigger fish to fry than someone quarrelling over titles. Call me, Sam. Call me Reverend Sam. Call me a “leader” or an “author.” Call me what you like, I don’t care. What do you think about what I DO, that’s what matters. How is my service performance? Am I serving you? Am I getting the Bible message across? Can you see this for yourself? What do YOU think (imagine a pastor asking from the pulpit what the congregation thinks! But I do!). If am not listening to you, or serving you, then it is your duty to tell me and work with me, for I am, after all, just another sinner saved by grace like you are.