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Yeah, I was in Ghana just recently. We had half a million people show up, and a man was raised from the dead on the platform - that's a fact, people.
-- Benny Hinn, From a CNN Impact Expose on March 16, 1997
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Preterism: Preterism - pain and suffering question
Posted on Friday, July 16 @ 17:00:29 PDT by Virgil |
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mathetes submitted: "Hello, I've recently begun to look into preterism, and I think it has many merits, and helps explain certain problematic aspects of millennialism. However, there is a thing or two about preterism that I can't seem to get past:
God's original purpose was for man to fill the earth, subdue it, and have the animals in subjection. (Gen 1:28) Death would only come from disobedience. (Gen 2:17) If Adam and Eve didn't disobey, they would have lived forever, presumably in a perfect world free of the pain and suffering that exists now.
If preterism is true, then all future generations of mankind are destined to have to live an imperfect life with pain and suffering (to a greater or lesser degree), in which they will be tested and hopefully make it into heaven. Pain and suffering was not an original part of God's plan, yet according to preterism, it has become a permanent part of it. According to this school of thought, there is no plan in place to prevent future generations from having to go through terrible things. I find it hard to harmonize that concept with my belief in a God of love (1John 4:8).
Any thoughts on this? I am particularly interested in scriptural support, but will welcome any response.
Thanks in advance
Jennifer"
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Re: Preterism - pain and suffering question (Score: 1)
 by pretgirlinca on Friday, July 16 @ 18:02:00 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Hi Jennifer,
First I want to say welcome. This is a heavily dominated boys club so it's always nice to see another woman. :) (not that a boys club is bad, I'm just saying... )
I don't know that Adam and Eve would have lived for ever had they never sinned but, the kind of death Adam and Eve experienced is/was much greater than physical death.
There are several contributors on this board who can explain the spiritual or covenantal ramifications that did in fact occur the moment sin entered into the picture that will help clarify exactly what happened in the garden.
But I wanted to address more the issue of pain and suffering. Gen.3:16
Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception;
The terminology says "I will greatly multiply thy sorrow" (I have been wanting to explore this further but haven't had time). It implies that sorrow (or pain and suffering) was already a factor. As part of sin consequences, it would now, greatly increase.
Life and death, joy and sorrow are all part of the human condition. I don't know that biblically it states and is meant to be taken in a literal sense, that we will not experience the negative side life. In fact just the opposite. It's during our trials that we will find hope and joy. It's often time during our lowest moments that God is the most real to us, thus solidifying our faith in Him. And in that relationship, is where freedom, liberty, peace and joy are found.
Even in the New Jerusalem there is still death. There is still sin outside the city walls. Just as sin broke covenantal life through Adam, through Christ, our "life" is restored to us.
Also in 1John 4:18 it is talking about a love made perfect through Christ Jesus. We have nothing to fear because we have eternal security through Him and with Him.
That is not however, a blanket statement to say that Christians(or any people)will never experience pain or suffering. We do live in a corruptible world and we will have to deal with the unsavory side of life. Often times we don't have to look any further than our own sin to see where the trouble comes from. :)
On the upside, I believe as we begin to see the New Heavens and the Earth for what they truly are, we can begin to establish a better way for ourselves and our children to live. I believe we don't have to experience as much pain and suffering as we do. At least that's my hope!
I know I didn't really answer your questions, I'm sure one of the boys will be accommodating you soon but I had a few minutes and really just wanted to break the ice. :)
Peace to you,
Julie
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- by JohnC on Friday, July 16 @ 23:33:32 PDT
Re: Preterism - pain and suffering question (Score: 1)
 by Jer on Friday, July 16 @ 21:43:05 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | And I heard a loud voice from heaven saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people. God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying. There shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away." (Rev 21:3-4; cf. Lev 26:11; Ez 37:24-37; Is 25:8, 51:11, 65:17-19)
I would seek to understand these concepts in covenantal terms. "There shall be no more pain" is followed by a dependent clause (I assume oti to be original) which introduces the reason for no more death, mouring, pain, etc. "...for the former things have passed away" alludes to Isaiah 65:17-19. What are the former things? To what did the former things belong? And why are they no longer welcome in New Jerusalem (v.2)?
It seems that death, sorrow, crying and pain are set in contrast to New Jerusalem and the presence of God. In Revelation, New Jerusalem is contrasted with Babylon which I understand to be earthly Jerusalem. The earthly city represented a "ministry of death" (2 Cor 3:7) because law could not "impart life." (Gal 3:21) If we understand "death" in covenantal terms, why not "mourning"?
Some other questions: What did the concept of "mourning" mean in the Ancient Near East culture? In what ways did this concept relate to "honor-shame" social/religious structures? How does their concept of "mourning" differ from "modern" readers?
Hope this helps :)
Jeremy |
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Re: Preterism - pain and suffering question...Why God, Why? (Score: 1)
 by chrisliv on Friday, July 16 @ 22:00:15 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Sure,
You seem to suggest that, "God's original purpose for man..." was twarted by Adam and Eve, so mankind can't live happily ever after in a perfect world, and that somehow preterism demands that pain and suffering is something that cannot be avoided.
But, I don't think there is any real preterist or futurist dogma like that.
For some reason you've come to believe that pain and suffering must prove that "God's plan" is being frustrated by events on earth. But that's more of a philosophical question, which any futurist or preterist could voice. And it is very good question.
The narrative language in Genesis is simple, and some people do think that God set up the Garden to be a pain free paradise of fellowship, but then that nasty little serpent snuck in and messed everything up, and poor old God has been trying to bring everything back to the way it was before their "eyes were opened", as if God was taken by surprise by the events in the Garden.
But, others have viewed the Garden as a place of stasis or a womb-like period to be moved out of, and toward a greater maturation, e.g., a prerequisite step to leaving was that God saw that Adam was lonely in the Garden (as if He didn't know beforehand).
So, if I'm understanding your post correctly, your trouble harmonizing all of the pain and suffering that a God of love does indeed allow his creatures to inflict, for the most part, upon themselves, is an issue that you have with God, not with preterists.
Peace to you,
C. Livingstone
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Re: Preterism - pain and suffering question (Score: 1)
by JohnC on Friday, July 16 @ 23:26:22 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Quote:If Adam and Eve didn't disobey, they would have lived forever, presumably in a perfect world free of the pain and suffering that exists now. Here are some questions, as a followup to your assertion:
Are you asserting that Adam and Eve weren't created with "pain" nerves? Would Adam never have stubbed his toe on a rock? Or pricked his finger on a rosebush? Or that they were incapable of expressing sorrow? Would an elephant running around the garden never have stepped on (and killed) an ant? It seems that Adam and Eve were physically capable of fear before being cursed and thrown out of the garden (Gen.3:8).
You say that you are interested in scriptural support, but your own statement is asserting much that is just not in the Bible. In other words, you yourself are drawing conclusions that cannot be supported Biblically. Although it is tempting to "fill in the blanks" on the Garden of Eden (and many theologians have done so throughout the centuries), we should not go beyond what the Bible plainly asserts.
Adam and Eve died(spiritually) that day. They did not "begin to die" physically, because the Bible says no such thing. God never said "in the day you eat of it you will BEGIN to die, but you won't actually die for several hundred more years..."
God did say, in Gen.3:22, that Adam had an opportunity to live forever....BUT...the fact that this was only gained by eating from the tree of life showed that Adam's destiny was death. God designed him that way from the beginning. |
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- by chrisliv on Saturday, July 17 @ 09:33:46 PDT
- by coderguy on Sunday, July 18 @ 00:30:29 PDT
- by chrisliv on Sunday, July 18 @ 09:27:06 PDT
- by Jer on Sunday, July 18 @ 11:38:18 PDT
Re: Preterism - pain and suffering question (Score: 1)
by mrfullpreterist on Saturday, July 17 @ 03:37:12 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Jennifer,
The above comments are very good observations. Also consider this - Did God know beforehand that man would fall? Was He not aware of all the "problems" that would cause? Did that not at all bring about a sense of pain and suffering within the heart of God Himself, even before the coming in of sin? The problem is not that pain and suffering exist. The problem for man once he sinned was that he was "cursed" by God. When man came under God's curse his pain and suffering took on a whole new nature and was magnified. Pain would no longer exist as simply a good thing that served the purpose of keeping us out of harms way, but now became part of the harm itself. God has always Himself been familiar with pain. He comprehends it. He in fact created it. I personally do not believe that God has or ever will cause pain to completely cease. I think it always existed and therefore is part of the big picture, and not necessarily in this life only. Christians do not hold forth a gospel which promises that there will come a time where there is no pain and/or suffering, but they do hold forth a gospel which proclaims that is has been overcome through Christ and that whatever we suffer now will always be worth it later. All suffering and pain have been and always will be burnt out by the glory of what He has done.
"ALL THINGS work for the good of those who love God and are called according to His purpose" Romans 8:28.
It is not that pain and suffering (at least here on earth) will ever be abolished, but that if we...
"turn (our) eyes upon Jesus" and "look full in His wonderful face. Then the things of earth will grow strangely dim, in the light of His glory and grace." |
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- by coderguy on Sunday, July 18 @ 00:23:35 PDT
- by mrfullpreterist on Sunday, July 18 @ 04:56:16 PDT
- by Virgil on Sunday, July 18 @ 10:28:52 PDT
Re: Preterism - pain and suffering question (Score: 1)
by coderguy on Sunday, July 18 @ 00:21:10 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | I have long seen the problem of evil, which is the source of pain and suffering, as a major problem of preterism. If you look at pagan views of life you see that they have to accept that evil was always being part of the universe. This leads to the depressive views of post-modernism. I think that Hinduism is the most progressive form of paganism. Hinduism seeks to achieve a state of nothingness. They don't strive for heaven, because they will still have to contend with evil. Yin and Yang are a good way of representing this pagan view of good and evil. You can't have good without having a little bad and visa versa. This constant struggle is awful.
Also, to say that evil has always been part of the universe, one would also have to say that God declared evil was good, when he was pronouncing His judgment of His creation in Genesis. If you don't think that is the case then you believe that evil had to start some point between the completion of the creation and the fall of man. If there is a start then their can be an end. Not an end in the way that it will cease to exist, but in that it will be bound.
When you take such a loose handling of the text, and come to it with presuppositions of a preterist you end up taking away the hope. Where is the hope in always having to strive with evil? Where is the peace in knowing that you will always be fighting with the pain of life? The preterist view of evil leaves more questions then it answers. In fact, it doesn't present answers, rather it is nothing but futile speculation. I am sure you are going to paint me a head in the clouds futurist, who doesn't want to face reality. This is not the case. I believe that we are promised freedom from pain, suffering and their root, evil.
A close point. Some of the above post claim that by leaving evil (pain and suffering) in the world it will be a way for us to learn more about God. I think I Cor. 13:13 explains why this is not the case. It says "But now abide faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love." The reason that the greatest of these is love is because when Christ comes and we see him (see prior verse) we will no longer need faith because our faith will be realized. Also, our hope will be fulfilled. Therefore love will always abide thus making it the greatest.
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- by Virgil on Sunday, July 18 @ 05:43:04 PDT
- by mscsamalot on Sunday, July 18 @ 09:59:22 PDT
Re: Preterism - pain and suffering question (Score: 1)
by judge on Sunday, July 18 @ 18:42:00 PDT
(User Info | Send a Message) | Jennifer:
God's original purpose was for man to fill the earth, subdue it, and have the animals in subjection. (Gen 1:28) Death would only come from disobedience. (Gen 2:17) If Adam and Eve didn't disobey, they would have lived forever, presumably in a perfect world free of the pain and suffering that exists now.
Judge:
Perhaps Gods original purpose was not for man to live forever on earth, but rather to live on earth until maturity was reached and then to be rewarded with heaven.
This was the view of Augustine for example. In other words our lives hewre on earth are a [i]means[/i] rather than an end in themselves.
Augustine wrote that had adam obeyed he would have passed into a blissful immortality without the intervention of death.
We don't get perfect happiness or justice here but we do get the opportunity to grow.
This is why 70 a.d. (or thereabouts) was such a momentus occaision, the dead were raised into heaven! |
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