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Exclusive: Water immersion after A.D. 70
Posted on Monday, February 23 @ 13:32:44 PST by Virgil Vaduva

PlanetPreterist Columns by Virgil Vaduva
Baptism, or immersion in water can become a hot topic among preterists, especially in the light of the fact that preterism has a strong background in the Churches of Christ. The question that should be asked however is not if immersion in water is required for salvation, but is immersion in water required for believers after A.D. 70?

Because I do not want this to be an argument over the soteriological relevance of “baptism”, I want to approach the topic from a different perspective. Often, baptism is presented as a requirement for salvation because of its typological ties to Noah’s flood and the resurrection of Christ. The typology goes like this: just as Noah’s flood cleansed the world of sin and wickedness, so baptism removes ones’ sins (1 Peter 3:18-22) and just as Christ was buried into death and was resurrected into life, in the same manner one is buried into water and emerges out of water alive, with no sin.

There is no question that according to the Scripture, Noah’s flood is to be understood as a type for the water immersion practiced by first century Christians.

In 1 Peter 3:21, Peter writes “and baptism which is a fulfillment of the type (gr. antitupos) now saves you...through the resurrection of Jesus Christ.

Clearly, Peter teaches that Noah’s flood was a type, which was fulfilled in the water immersion, which was actively saving his audience. The problem however, arises when these comments are taken out of the historical context of 1 Peter. It is evident that Peter uses the word “now”, not only to assure his audience that salvation is a reality through immersion in the name of Christ, but to also assure them that salvation from “the end” is assured, “the end” obviously referring to the end of “all things” discussed just a few verses later (1 Peter 4:7), i.e. the end of the old covenant. In 1 Peter 4:17 he even mentions the fact that “the time has come to begin the judgment with the house of God” – making an obvious and unmistakable parallel to Noah’s preaching of “the end” and coming judgment of God over creation through the destruction (washing away in the waters of the flood) of wickedness.

While we all agree on Peter’s parallel between the flood and baptism, for some reason no-one mentions what happens next. In Noah’s case, after the righteous was saved through the flood (while the wicked was destroyed), a “new covenant” was made between him and God, which was that “God will never destroy every living thing again…” In the first century, after the righteous Christians were saved through baptism (while the wicked were destroyed through lack of baptism), a “new covenant” was instituted between man and God. It is evident that in both cases, Noah’s flood and water immersion are indicators of a transitional period to a new covenant between man and God.

Even Paul makes a similar parallel when associating the passing of Israel through the Red Sea to baptism in 1 Cor. 10:1-4: “I want you to know, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea, and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea, and all ate the same supernatural food and all drank the same supernatural drink. For they drank from the supernatural Rock which followed them, and the Rock was Christ.

Evidently, the destruction of the Egyptian armies in the Red Sea goes very well together with the “water washes away the evil ones” theme already established, so in Paul’s parallel, we see yet a third time an example of “baptism” moving a body of God’s followers from a non-covenantal position into a “new covenant” position with God. This cannot be a simple coincidence, so the question is immediately raised: if Noah’s flood ceased with the institution of a new covenant, why does water immersion continue after the institution of a new covenant in A.D. 70? In other words, in each example, once the covenant is instituted, the actions which brought about the destruction of the evil ones and the institution of a new covenant are not continuously repeated.

I would like for the defenders of baptism today to hopefully address these problems – I am not taking any sides on the issue, and I am hoping that kicking these ideas around will bring some fruitful results that can help all of us grow and understand the truth of the scriptures even more.

------

Virgil Vaduva is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com.

View Virgil Vaduva archives

Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.


 
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Re: Water immersion after A.D. 70 (Score: 1)
by nate4onenation on Monday, February 23 @ 15:06:24 PST
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Wonderful Post!!
Though you say you are not on sides, it would be hard for me to post anything this logical and believe that baptism still is a neccesity.

I am of the opinion that communion and baptism are both no longer required. They were types of truths which were fulfilled at AD 70. From the resurrection to the partaking of salvation once and for all at the parousia, there are no ritual requirements for salvation post AD 70.
God Bless,
Nate


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Re: Water immersion after A.D. 70 (Score: 1)
by blackpreterist on Monday, February 23 @ 15:22:01 PST
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Hello Virgil, you've posted some very interesting thoughts.

I'd say that perhaps one difference is the relation of these shadows to the new covenant: these deliverances are corporate (Noah and his family, the Israelites), while baptism is personal ("every/each one of you"). When Noah and his family were delivered through water and when the Israelites were spared while the Egyptians were destroyed, this was a one-time event. This is not true of the conversion examples in Acts: each time the people were converted, there was baptism experience (see Acts 2, 8, 16, 18 for examples). It would seem then that the corporate experiences of Noah and the Israelites parallel that of new covenant believers on the individual level, and not on the corporate level. Thus, the deliverances of Noah's family and of Israel serve as symbols of what takes places in each individual.

When the parallel is drawn in this manner, one can see that the situation of each individual is like that of Noah: when one has entered into covenant with God and has been baptized (I too will not go into whether baptism is merely symbolic or is necessary for salvation), one need not repeat this act to be "reinstated" in this covenant relationship if one should backslide. Just as the one baptism experience of Israel was enough, the one baptism experience of each believer is enough.

Also, consider that in the cases of Noah and the Israelites, one was "born" into the covenant. The covenant relationship was hereditary (being a descendant of Noah or of Jacob in the respective covenants). Since people were "born" into this covenant relationship, there was no need to repeat the respective baptism shadows.

This is not the case in the new covenant as far as I know. The new covenant was with the houses of Israel and Judah (Jeremiah 31), but how would a non-Israelite enter this covenant and be Abraham's seed? Galatians 3:21-29 explains. Moreover, Peter in Acts 2, Paul in Romans (particularly 9-11), and the Hebrews writer (the whole book!) seem to imply that merely being born a physical descendant of Abraham, a Jew or Israelite, does not make one part of the new covenant. Thus, while the shadows in Noah and Israel represent inherited covenant relationships (and therefore each deliverance need not be repeated), the act of going "from a non-covenantal position into a 'new covenant' position with God" in the new "messianic" covenant is not inherited and must be fulfilled on the individual level.

Kenneth Perkins


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Re: Water immersion after A.D. 70 (Score: 1)
by large-hammer on Monday, February 23 @ 16:42:08 PST
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Another note:

If baptism means immersion (necessarily), wouldn't it be the wicked in Noah's time (and not the 8 in the ark) who were immersed?

The same point seems to hold true of being baptised into Moses in the cloud. It was the Egyptians who were immersed!

Another question I have is whether the Pharisees were immersing couches or just washing them.

Don't mind me. I just like to throw this sort of stuff out there.


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Re: Water Baptism after A.D. 70... As Naturalization Into Christ's Kingdom (Score: 1)
by chrisliv on Monday, February 23 @ 16:09:38 PST
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Yeah,

It is often overlooked how that baptism was a part of naturalization process for someone to become a member of the congregation of Israel, as they renounced their former alliance and washed off their Gentile filth.

John the Baptist certainly used this well known practice to announce to the Jews that they were in need of repentance and should be baptised into Christ's long-awaited Kingdom that was just about to emerge, and which would make the Old Nation obsolete.

Anabaptists were murdered by Catholics and Protestants alike, for daring to re-nationalize by baptism.

So, baptism can be very powerful, if its meaning is not obscured.

Peace to you all,
Christian


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Re: Water immersion after A.D. 70 (Score: 1)
by jaredcoleman on Monday, February 23 @ 18:26:37 PST
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Excellent question Virgil! This is certainly one that must be dealt with be we preterists. I don't know that I am ready to add an opinion yet, but let me make a couple observations:

1) Your position on this will likely be affected by how you understand the fulfillment of eschatologic promises. Those who view the kingdom as fully realized by us today in our present state are more likely to believe that practices which were normative for the pre-parousia church are no longer normative for us. Those who believe that the pre-parousia Christians entered the kingdom of heaven in a literal/physical sense at the parousia (resurrection/rapture) are more likely to believe that practices normative for them should continue to be so now for us. So it seems to me anyway.

2) It is difficult to separate any salvific aspect of baptism from its practice today, for those who believe in such an aspect. If my view of baptism is that it was the point of entry into the Christian covenant, when do I enter today? There must be a point of entry somewhere, but until I can see one it's hard to separate this aspect from the question. (I would of course also have to see the justification for keeping one pre-parousia teaching on salvation normative for today while rejecting as normative another.) Anyway, I'm sure its easier to set aside if you do not believe in such a salvific aspect.

I'm glad you raised the question and I don't want to seem overly-dogmatic, so forgive me if I do. I am as open to learning and realigning my thinking as the next preterist. I have to admit however, that I struggle with what seems to me to be a slippery slope here. I'll think about your article some more.

Jared


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Re: Water immersion after A.D. 70 (Score: 1)
by Terry on Monday, February 23 @ 18:51:36 PST
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I find no indicators in the New Testament that baptism was part of "transitioning". The eschatalogical sign gifts are labeled as such by inspired writers indicating those sign gifts were temporary, in force during the last days, i.e. of the Jewish age. Baptism by immersion for remission of sins was instituted following the cross and I find no scripture writer labeling it as an item that would pass away (as per tongues and prophecy in 1 Corinthians 13). Therefore it appears to be part of the fabric of the new covenant woven through the writings and preaching inspired by the Holy Spirit.


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Re: Water immersion after A.D. 70 (Score: 1)
by Imjustanant on Monday, February 23 @ 18:55:28 PST
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In my research of the transitional period, and the consummation of the coming of Christ, I’ve found more then baptism and the Lord’s communion that we should no longer regard for present day Christians.

Let’s review. The #1 is the most obvious: repentance.

Acts 17:30 “And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:” [Repent why? To escape the coming destruction!]

Luke 24:47 “And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.” [We know this preaching of repentance was fulfilled]

Matt 4:17 “From that time Jesus began to preach, and to say, Repent: for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” [The Kingdom, no longer being at hand, but rather HERE and NOW, again, absolves us of this 1st century sacrament]

#2 & #3 Christ commanded His disciples, who were entering into the transitional time, to (#2) preach the gospel, baptize and (#3) teach the disciples (Matt 28).

#2 Preaching of the Gospel

Preaching the Gospel stood as a prophecy to be fulfilled within this transitional period. We see this boldly in Matt 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.” As Preterist, we know the gospel was preached to the entire world (Col 1) and we know the end did come. With the prophecy of preaching the Gospel to the world being fulfilled in the transitional period and without any observance of Scripture hinting of the need post AD 70, we must EMBRACE 1 Cor 15:28, “And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.” That’s right, God is now, “all in all”…preaching the Gospel is now wholly unnecessary.

#3 Teaching

Teaching had it’s place in the transitional time, but, afterward, we have a commandment to longer partake of this 1st century requirement. What better then God’s own description of this new covenant, Heb 8:10-13 “…I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people: [11] And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest. [12] For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more. [13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away. ”

#4 Endurance/perseverence

Christ says in Matt 24:13 “But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.” This again was spoken to those who would endure this transitional period of time. Since we know there is no longer a need to, “endure to the end.” Why? The “end” has already come. Simple enough.
Ah, but the one thing that DID survive the transitional period, and that ONLY because we don’t find it in Scripture, is the sinner’s prayer. Close your eyes, bow your head, don’t anyone peek (lest there be accountability) or look at each other (lest this be a public proclamation). Now, if you believe, recite this prayer and raise your hand (for our staff to count), you will be saved.


Virgil, Truly, you’ve written an excellent article. I meant no disrespect. I enjoyed it and it certainly pushes me to an uncomfortable place. I pray to have a more meaningful and direct response at some point in the future. With that said, I do believe it is easy to justify the removal of most anything that could be called Christian through the route of fulfilled prophecy.

Eph 4: 4-6 “There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above al

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Re: Water immersion after A.D. 70 (Score: 1)
by DavidTimm on Monday, February 23 @ 21:12:48 PST
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Virgil, very interesting points you brought up. I personally believe that water baptism was practiced under the Old Covenant way before John the Baptist. Ed Stevens wrote a great paper on this. Ritual cleansing for a Jew was required within a bath near the temple prior to serving. John didn't bring in something new but was teaching a baptism of repentance for the coming kingdom and judgment that would come in 70AD. During the transition (30-70AD) the Old Covenant ritual water baptism was passing away and the New COvenant spiritual washing baptism of the Holy Spirit was being introduced. David Green has written a great article on spiritual baptism at the following address:

http://www.preteristarchive.com/Preterism/green-david_p_01.html

David


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Re: Water immersion after A.D. 70 (Score: 1)
by Virgil on Tuesday, February 24 @ 05:06:45 PST
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I want to make sure that those of you commenting on this do not get me wrong. I am not proposing any form of universalism here whatsoever, nor am I denying the salvation which comes/came from baptism. I am, for the sake of consistency and typological correctness, asking to consider the passing of the old covenant as a time for change (as far as baptism is concerned).

Paul repeatedly associated the Law with The Death (Sam likes to use the definite article when talking about death, and I agree with him in that it personifies the idea of separation from God). If The Law, The Death, and The Old Covenant are all passing away at the fall of the temple, and "the world" is carried into a New Covenant, then why can we not see, just like in the other instances I showed, the possibility that A.D. 70 was a higher baptism of the world, where The Death and The Law and evil were washed away and the righteous believers remained standing?

If baptism in Moses, and Noah's Flood were both indicators AND initiators of a new covenant, why are we making an exception in this case? Was The Death (The Law) really NOT swallowed up in victory? Did not the New Israel "come out of her" being victorious over The Death and being delivered from evil?


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Re: Water immersion after A.D. 70 (Score: 1)
by armothe (armothe@yahoo.com) on Tuesday, February 24 @ 05:33:36 PST
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I think we can actually agree that there are two baptisms mentioned in the NT.

1) Water - repentence
2) Fire - Holy Spirit (perhaps more?)

John the Baptist said in Mark 1:8 - "I indeed did baptize you with water, but he shall baptize you with the Holy Spirit." (almost as if the fire baptism is what matters most here)

Audience relevance states that the same people who were baptized by water will also be baptized by fire.

Scripture also states that after pentecost fire baptism seems to have become the most important.
Acts 1:5 - (v4)"Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
Acts 19:1-7 - fire baptism. Readying the world for His glorious return.

Consistent Preterism asserts that the (initial?)work of the Holy Spirit is complete after 70AD. Thus bringing an end to Fire baptism.

Thus I would also conclude that water baptism was only valid for the 1st century Christians.

-A


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Re: Water immersion after A.D. 70 (Score: 1)
by E-man on Tuesday, February 24 @ 09:54:05 PST
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Virgil, thank you for the article. I am a member of the churches of Christ (although not in good standing because of my adherence to preterism), and I can tell you that those are fighting words when you start taking shots at modern water baptism. Yet, I have to agree with you.

In fact, I am still developing my opinions and conclusions regarding the consequences of full/hyper preterism. One day, when I can find some time, I will write it all down. But, without going into great detail, (since I read these articles while eating lunch at work), I am leaning more and more towards what I consider to be the inevitable conclusion that everything in the New Testament is past history and that we live in an age beyond the context of the New Testament.

In other words, there is no true existing church on this physical earth. In fact, I don’t believe that there is a legitimate religious institution on earth today. God wrote the last chapter to that age and closed the book. I think that the first century rapture theory provides the most plausible explanation as to where the true church resides….. in heaven reigning with God.

Thanks again and keep those articles coming!!!!

e-man



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Re: Water immersion after A.D. 70 (Score: 1)
by Malachi on Tuesday, February 24 @ 13:22:14 PST
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The problem with the approach of the article is it sets up a false premise and therefore leads to a false conclusion. Men are not baptized to be saved from the eschaton, but from sin. Noah built the ark to be saved from the flood. Thus, the ark had the single objective of carrying a righteous seed through the waters of the flood. But baptism has for its purpose the washing away of sin. (Acts 2:23; 22:16; Mk. 16:15, 16) It is true that baptized believers would have been saved from the wrath of the eschton by obedience to the gospel, but this was merely incidental and not the purpose for being baptized. Hence, we continue to be baptized today because we still require to be cleansed from sin - not saved from the eschaton.

In the case of the Israelites being "baptized" unto Moses, Paul here is simply using an analogy. The Israelites were not really baptized, Paul simply likens their obedience to Moses' instruction to enter the Red Sea to the obedience of believers to enter the waters of baptism and be cleansed from sin. Entering the Red Sea saved the Israelites from the armies of Egypt, but was not an initiation rite into the Old Covenant as Virg suggests. Circumcision was the initiation rite of the OT. We continue to be baptized today because baptism is the "circumcision of Christ" (Col. 2:11, 12) by which we put off the body of sins of the flesh and are added to Christ's church. (Acts 2:41, 47) The point Paul is getting at in his analogy is that the Corinthians cannot rest upon the sacraments of baptism and the Lord's supper as a license to sin. For as God saved Israel out of Egypt but later destroyed them that believed not, so the Corinthians would be destroyed if they fell into idolatry and fornication.

Kurt Simmons
Bimillennial Preterist Assoc.
www.preteristcentral.com


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Re: Water immersion after A.D. 70 (Score: 1)
by jaredcoleman on Wednesday, February 25 @ 08:15:10 PST
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Virgil,

I want to thank you again for posting this thought provoking article. I have a comment on each of these passages.

1 Pet 3:20-21 (NASB) ...who once were disobedient, when the patience of God kept waiting in the days of Noah, during the construction of the ark, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through the water. Corresponding to that, baptism now saves you--not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience--through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


I do not think that too much can be made of the word "now" here. It seems to me that the word is contrasting their present time with the days of Noah. As those eight passed through the water and were saved, so believers pass through the water and are saved. It is in the faithful act of baptism that the believer appeals to God for a good conscience (or a good conscience appeals to God, depending upon translation). It seems that the one-time passage through water is a picture of the salvation of an individual, not the group as a whole (neither is it picturing the washing away of evil ones). Of course a Christian does not have to pass through the water a second time, but that does not mean that a convert need not be baptized like the rest of Messianic Israel!

Again, either we are all born into new covenant relation with God or we have to enter the covenant at some point (this is reminding me of John 3). If they entered it through faithful baptism, why not us?

1 Cor 10:1-4 (NASB) For I do not want you to be unaware, brethren, that our fathers were all under the cloud and all passed through the sea; and all were baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; and all ate the same spiritual food; and all drank the same spiritual drink, for they were drinking from a spiritual rock which followed them; and the rock was Christ.


Interestingly, Paul does not discuss believer's baptism in this text. He does, however, allude to this statement a couple chapters later:

1 Cor 12:12-14 (NASB) For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by ["in" YLT] one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit. For the body is not one member, but many.


As the physical unified the former, so the spiritual unified the latter. The only direct Pauline use the baptism/drinking of Israel of old is to compare it with the baptism/drinking in and of the Spirit by Messianic Israel. Now, if you can use Paul's statement to eliminate baptism from post-parousia Christians, does it not remove the Spirit as well?

It seems to me that although you can build this belief using the statements of our apostles, it can only be done by reading things into the passages that were never intended by the authors. You might recognize that it was not the authors intent to comment on post-parousia baptism in these texts, and that you are simply reasoning from all of the Bible text to draw a conclusion about post-parousia Christians. That is fine, but caution is needed when we "build a case" this way. The conclusions that we can be most assured of, are those that use passages directly in their context, conforming to the author's intent. I can safely conclude a water/Spirit parallel from 1 Cor 10-12, but can you safely conclude a water/baptism parallel? I can safely conclude from 1 Pet 3 that a Christian passes through the water of baptism and emerges, never to pass through it again. Can you safely conclude from this passage that Christianity itself passed through the water of baptism never to return again?

I know, Virgil, that you are still agnostic on this issue, so though I speak to you here please do not take it

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Re: Water immersion after A.D. 70 (Score: 1)
by MichaelB on Friday, October 29 @ 13:01:39 PDT
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Was Baptism ever really the requirement Virgil?


Jesus said he was baptized to "fulfill all righteousness"


Matthew 3
14But John tried to deter him, saying, "I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?"
15Jesus replied, "Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness." Then John consented.


Titus says they were saved "not because of righteous things they have done"


Titus 3
5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,


Water baptizm only "symbolizes" an answer of a good conscience towards God.


1 Peter 3
21and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also--not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ,


Example:

Note - both thieves were hurling insults.


Matthew 27
44 The robbers who had been crucified with Him were also insulting Him with the same words.

Mark 15
27 They crucified two robbers with Him, one on His right and one on His left.
32 "Let this Christ, the King of Israel, now come down from the cross, so that we may see and believe!" Those who were crucified with Him were also insulting Him.

Yet something came over the one thief. AND IT WASN'T BAPTISM. It was the washing of the Holy Spirit. An answer to God of a clear conscience (which is what baptizm symbolized).


Luke 23
39One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: "Aren't you the Christ? Save yourself and us!"
40But the other criminal rebuked him. "Don't you fear God," he said, "since you are under the same sentence? 41We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong."
42Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom."
43Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Titus 3
5he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit

Michael Bennett <


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