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Young girl? Hey! Hello! Young lady! I'm preaching, sweetheart. Sit down. Mama, this is not your house. This is the house of the Lord. Keep that child seated. We reverence the anointing here. I take what I do seriously. I don't play games with it. You sit there listening to me. Don't move out of your seat unless you're dying! And if you're dying, you can't move anyways. -- Benny Hinn, Oral Roberts University, Trinity Broadcasting Network, August 4, 1997 |
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by Marcus Booker "Comprehensive grace," whether its adherents know it or not, is the bastard of hyper-Calvinism and Arminianism. CGers say that Jesus redeemed (and/or saved) every individual; they say, like the Arminian, that the atonement covered everybody, elect or not. Yet they combine this misunderstanding with a deranged form of unconditional grace; they hereby make grace impotent. Moreover, much like Dispensationalism, CG denies the conditionality of God's promises and blessings. They confound conditionality with merit.
Comprehensive Grace operates off of a shallow, non-Hebraic modernistic mindset. Now that those fancy words are out, I'll cut to the chase:
Here's the pattern of redemption:
1. Plight. Israel was in bondage. They were strangers in the land of Egypt
2. Crying out. "And the sons of Israel sighed because of the bondage, and they cried out; and their cry for help because of their bondage rose up to God. So God heard their groaning; and God remembered His covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." (Exodus 2)
3. Mercy. "It is not for your righteousness or for the uprightness of your heart that you are going to possess their land, but it is because of the wickedness of these nations that the LORD your God is driving them out before you, in order to confirm the oath which the LORD swore to your fathers, to Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob." (Deut 9)
4. Expectation to remember former condition and, on that basis to show mercy. "You shall not wrong a stranger or oppress him, for you were stangers in the land of Egypt." (Exodus 22)
5. Removal of mercy (for those unmerciful and forgetful) and restoration of former condition. "The LORD will bring you back to Egypt in ships, by the way about which I spoke to you, 'You shall never see it again!'" (Deut 28)
This pattern is not foreign at all to what Jesus said in his parable of the unmerciful servant. Here is the breakdown of that parable:
1. Plight. Servant about to be sold into slavery because of great debt to master.
2. Crying out. "So the slave fell [to the ground] and prostrated himself before him, saying, 'Have patience with me and I will repay you everything.'"
3. Mercy. "And the lord of that slave felt compassion and released him and forgave him the debt."
4. Expectation to remember former condition and, on that basis to show mercy. "You wicked slave, I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. Should you not have had mercy on your fellow slave, in the same way that I had mercy on you?"
5. Removal of mercy (for those unmerciful and forgetful) and restoration of former condition. "And his lord, moved with anger, handed him over to the torturers until he should repay all that was owed him."
Notice that in the above pattern is a demonstration of how grace actually functions. First off, mercy came as the result of being helpless and broken down; people begged and pleaded for mercy. Secondly, mercy was granted because of compassion and forgiveness from above, not because the one crying out from below has made satisfaction. Thirdly, the "brokenness" is necessary for the granting of forgiveness. Nevertheless, it does not cause that forgiveness, nor does it merit satisfaction. To be broken is merely to acknowledge that, of yourself, you can make no satisfaction and that compassion from above is your only recourse. Fourthly, grace should beget grace. Fifthly, if grace doesn't produce grace, grace will be removed from you. You will be "fallen from grace." Christ said, "forgive us our debts as we forgive our debtors."
Grace, once given, may be removed by he who gives it. The master in the parable, after his servant showed no mercy to others, required the full debt of that servant. In other words, for grace to remain grace, there must be a response from us.
Of course, the charge might be made that I speak here of some synthesis between man's and God's role in our salvation. It might seem that I am here robbing God of His glory and giving it to men. Not at all! Men, particularly those who act under grace, do not act of themselves but as Christ moves them. In other words, Christ is in them, and their deeds are the deeds of Christ. Men in such a condition do not act as if from their own strength and power. Their deeds are genuine good works, not the counterfeit works done for men, for outward show. There is a huge difference between these two. They must not be confounded. I touched upon this idea in an article called "We are justified by works and not faith alone."
My point is that if you understand that faith and works and love and words are the working of God, then you will not set them at odds with grace. Yet it is apparent that final rewards are, quite simply, contingent upon our deserts. Paul said, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." And John says that "those who did the good deeds [will come forth] to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment." These apostolic words, brothers and sisters, are not contrary to God's grace. Indeed, if they seem to stand in contradiction to that grace of God, then maybe it is you who need to reform your understanding of grace and to bring it in greater conformity with the Scriptures. The absolute necessity of human action is not antithetical to grace. Yes...prideful human action is against grace, as is counterfeit rigtheousness. True righteousness is lowly and grateful.
With this principle in mind, you will see how our final condition, with respect to rewards and punishments, depends upon our deeds. If our deeds came from Christ's cross, we will achieve glory. Otherwise, shame will be our inheritance. The Scriptures are clear on this point. In my refutation of CG, I will use only 1 John. Notice the "if" statements:
"But if we walk in the light as he himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his son cleanses us from all sin." (1:7)
"If we confess our sin, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." (1:9)
"But whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him. The one who abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as he walked." (2:5-6) In this excerpt, John says that those who keep the word are the ones "in him." In whom? In Christ! The same in whom all will be made alive. Yet not everybody is included under this heading; not everyone is "in Christ." Otherwise, it would be superfluous and irrelevant for John to say that "by this" we know that we are in Him.
"Whoever denies the son does not have the father; the one who confesses the son has the father also. As for you, let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the son and in the father." (2:23-24)
"We know that we have passed out of death into life, because we love the brethren. He who does not love abides in death." (3:14) Under CG, how does anybody abide in death? Isn't death gone? Maybe John meant that those before a.d. 70 who didn't love abided in death and that those after a.d. 70 who didn't love had life. I'll let the CGer or he who is considering that teaching to ponder this point on his own.
The text continues, saying, "Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer; and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."
"We love because he first loved us." (4:19) Think about this statement closely. If our love comes about because God loves us, then can God love everybody? If God loved everybody, then everybody would love. But not everybody does love. And God shows Himself as hating certain men. Psalm 5 says, "For you are not a God who takes pleasure in wickedness; no evil dwells with You. The boastful shall not stand before Your eyes; You hate all who do iniquity. You destroy those who speak falsehood." And Psalm 11 says, "The LORD tests the righteous and the wicked, and the one who loves violence His soul hates." Has God changed? Does He no longer hate?
One proponent of CG said that God must love His enemies because He requires us to do so. The question was, "Would God require us to do anything He Himself refused to do?" First off, this is the wrong question to ask. God tells us to love our enemies so that we put our trust in Him and to leave room for God's vengeance. "Say not thou, I will recompense evil; but wait on the LORD, and He shall save thee." And "If thine enemy be hungry, give him bread to eat; and if he be thirsty, give him water to drink: For thou shalt heap coals of fire upon his head, and the LORD shall reward thee."
Comprehensive grace misses the mark on many key areas. The aforesaid is only the tip of the iceberg. Here are other areas where their teaching falls short:
1. Ignoring implications of perpetual principles of God (idealism).
2. Being unbalanced in approach toward Scripture. Not grounding interpretation of particular texts upon the teaching of the whole. (Ex: "in Adam...in Christ").
3. Internal inconsistencies. One CGer will distinguish between redemption and salvation. Yet many CGers base the whole doctrine on Jesus being "Savior" (not just "redeemer") of all men. He says that he will have all men to be "saved." He doesn't say "redeemed." Also, the text say that the grace of God that brings "salvation" has appeared to all men. It also says that he came not to judge the world but to "save" the world. [Davo fits in this category]. Another CGer says, "unbelievers [in the hereafter] will go through a purging of sorts for their sins." How is this [comprehensive] grace? How is this forgiveness? This seems to be saying that some people, covered by Christ's atonement, would pay a penalty for their sins.
4. Partly because no two CGers seem to agree with one another, the doctrine is incoherent. It is gnostic in that it will not clearly define its terms and state its claims. I have read through all the posts on CG on this site, and I see ambivalence!
Of the above 4, #1 is probably the most critical. If CGers allowed for the individual recapitualation of eschatological principles and realities, then their entire doctrine would vanish (if they were consistent). The whole premise of CG has been, "This is done," "That is done too." "It's all accomplished." They go hyper with this teaching because they extend it beyond its proper place, i.e. beyond the confines of historical eschatology. They apply it (i.e. the idea of full completion) to individuals and their destinies as well. Yet, as I have shown in my last article, there is more awaiting us. Our earthly house has yet to be destroyed, and judgment is yet to come. CGers need to recognize the implications of that; they must soak in the consequences of individual eschatology.
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Marcus Booker is a columnist for PlanetPreterist.com. Marcus comes from a Reformed Presbyterian background. He is a husband, father and U.S. Air Force officer stationed in Minot, ND.
View Marcus Booker archives
Note: Opinions presented on PlanetPreterist.com or by PlanetPreterist.com columnists may not necessarily reflect the position of PlanetPreterist.com, or reflect the beliefs, doctrine or theological position of all other preterists. We encourage all readers to first and foremost carefully analyze all articles in the light of God's Word.
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Re: Comprehensive Disgrace (Score: 1)
by davo on Thursday, February 12 @ 00:19:51 PST (User Info | Send a Message) |
AMAZING GRACE!!
Just a short note for now.
Marcus Booker: Comprehensive grace misses the mark on many key areas. The aforesaid is only the tip of the iceberg.
The above actually is an unfortunate and somewhat myopic conglomeration of conclusions, based upon certain assumptions drawn from incorrect interpretations through ignorance of a position not only not properly understood, but essentially seen as something else.
Marcus Booker: One proponent of CG said that… Partly because no two CGers seem to agree with one another…
Hardly grounds for condemnation. Any area of developing study is in kind - take preterism.
Marcus Booker: [Davo fits in this category].
I invite folk to draw their own conclusions based upon what "I" have said on the forums – there for all to see.
Well, apart from being hyper hyper hyper and possibly unbalanced in my bastard beliefs, I am convinced of Scripture that the grace of God reaches well beyond the limitations of human appreciation.
davo |
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Re: Comprehensive Disgrace (Score: 1)
by sixstringfunk on Thursday, February 12 @ 00:59:13 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | "Comprehensive grace," ... is the bastard of hyper-Calvinism and Arminianism. I'm not sure how CG comes anywhere near Calvin's teaching. The "L" in his "TULIP" stands for "Limited Atonement". Quite simply, God punished Christ on the cross for His people alone. If Christ is the propitiation for the sins of every individual, then it is unjust for the Father to condemn anyone. All would be saved. |
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Re: Comprehensive Disgrace (Score: 1)
by mrfullpreterist on Thursday, February 12 @ 03:42:38 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Marcus,
I find myself to be more in line with your reasoning here than with CG's.
I struggled with this CG thing for a while myself. I also came to I John in particular for some reason in my most recent (and probably close to last) comments in the CG threads. I do in fact believe that God's "Common Grace" is comprehensive and has been given to "all men" in this or that way, but as for His "Specific Grace" as bestowed upon man through obedience from the heart to the Gospel (which as you have stated in so many words is a work of God,)I do not believe this is upon "all men" meaning "every individual", nor do I see a need for this to ever be the case.
Again this is just my understanding. I cannot help it if others disagree.
Robert L. Statzer |
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Re: Comprehensive Disgrace (Score: 1)
by Duck on Thursday, February 12 @ 11:14:00 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | To all,
As one who has recently heard of "comprehensive grace" could someone answer a few questions for me? If it is true that ALL (believers and unbelievers) receive God's salvific grace in the end then what motivation is there for righteous living? Why resist temptation? Why read my Bible? What need is there for a tree of life bearing leaves for the healing of the nations. What is the nature of the nations illness? Maybe I have a distorted view of God's judgment limited by my Calvinistic presuppositions but the thought of unrepentant child molesters and unrepentant murders, etc., etc. populating heaven is not very comforting to me. Someone please help me understand. Thank you.
David
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Re: Comprehensive Grace Challenged (Score: 1)
by preteristdave (preteristdave@aol.com) on Thursday, February 12 @ 14:48:13 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Preteristdave: Please be patient with me as a try to explain how I’m beginning to understand election and salvation. I don’t currently hold all of the views I’m about to share but I’m strongly considering them. I believe this is very important concerning the discussion at hand on CG.
Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Hebrews 9:15 For this reason He is the mediator of a new covenant, so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the transgressions that were committed UNDER THE FIRST COVENANT, those who have been CALLED (ELECTED) may receive the promise of the eternal inheritance (ETERNAL LIFE).
(John 17:3 "This is eternal life, that they may know You (RELATIONSHIP), the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.)
Romans 11:5 In the same way then, there has also come to be at the PRESENT TIME a REMNANT (spiritual Israel) according to God's gracious CHOICE.
Preteristdave: In Hebrews 9:15 we discover that Christ was sent to save those under the Old Covenant and that the elect only came from the Old Covenant. After this covenant world was destroyed in 70AD (Heb 8:13) there was no Old Covenant world remaining to be elected from. Every example of election is from old covenant Israel. The only ones who were able to believe during the transition period (30-70AD) were the elected remnant because OC Israel was hardened (see Isaiah 6). After 70AD faith was available to all men to receive eternal life (Rev 22:17). Reader, I and you have never sinned under the Old Covenant so we can’t be the elect. But yes Christ did die for you but you are not referred to in any way in the Hebrews 9:15 passage.
Heb 2:14 Therefore, since the children share in flesh and blood, He Himself likewise also partook of the same, that through death He might render powerless him who had the power of death, that is, the devil, 15 and might free those who through fear of death were subject to slavery (THE LAW) all their lives. 16 For assuredly He does not give help to angels, but He gives help to the descendant of Abraham. 17 Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people (OLD COVENANT ISRAEL).
Matthew 1:21 "She will bear a Son; and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people (OLD COVENANT ISRAEL) from their sins."
Acts 13:23 "From the descendants of this man, according to promise, God has brought to Israel a Savior, Jesus
Gal 4: 3 So also we, while we were children, were held in bondage under the elemental things of the world. 4 But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 so that He might redeem those who were under the Law (OLD COVENANT ISRAEL), that we might receive the adoption as sons.
Preteristdave: The Old Covenant is also described as “the world” in the New Testament.
1 John 2:17 The (OC) world is passing away, and also its lusts; but the one who does the will of God lives forever.
(Hebrews 8:13 When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear.)
2 Cor 4:4 in whose case the god of this (OC) world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
(John 8:44 "You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him. Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.)
Preteristdave: As Hebrews 9:15 shows the elect only came from the Old Covenant and Christ died for the Ol
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Re: Comprehensive Grace Challenged (Score: 1)
by Ed on Thursday, February 12 @ 15:12:43 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | I thought the name of this article was "Comprehensive Disgrace"? Who changed it? Was it because it was offensive? Why hasn't someone changed the offensive statements Marcus made about me in the forums? Is he allowed to state that I believe that "man is god"? So an offensive title of an article needs to be changed, but libel is okay on this website.
Oh well. |
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Re: Comprehensive Grace Challenged (Score: 1)
by hanoch on Thursday, February 12 @ 16:47:20 PST (User Info | Send a Message) | Marcus thanks for the article. You have pretty much summed up my suspicion of this CG. After
reading the post, I have to wonder what proponents of CG do with verse' like Mathew 15:24? Here Christ tells us who He has come for.
Albeit He obliges her, but this doesn't prove anything other than He gives to whom He will.
Forgive me if my Calvinistic roots are showing.
Thanks again,
Mark |
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Re: Comprehensive Grace Challenged (Score: 1)
by davo on Thursday, February 12 @ 23:21:58 PST (User Info | Send a Message) |
Ok Marcus, the "AMAZING GRACE" was indicative of the gracious tone [NOT] of your article. I see I've gone from hyper, to unbalanced, from pushing bastard beliefs to Gnostic modernisms, from fluffy to pious. And to top it off I'm now "slippery" – could it be that the slipperiness is simply your inability to grasp biblical logic.
Marcus Booker: Okay...You tell me what specifically I am not understanding. I have now read all of the posts.
And you say you've read all the posts etc – what a laugh. Read them, possibly – understood them, no way. And by the litany of misinformation you've put forward as being descriptive of fulfilled grace, well it's a sorry case of poor research. For instances, I have stated time and again the necessity of faith in Christ for eternal life – yet you in you blind misrepresentative ramblings cannot see it. There are just so many blatant distortions and falsification it is unbelievable, yet seeing your fervor, quite believable.
Marcus Booker: CG is also hyper-Calvinist in that it puts the onus of grace (both initial and continued) so much on God that it mistakenly renders belief and perseverance as unnecessary for the attaining of eternal life.
Marcus Booker: On this basis, CG draws an unscriptural line between grace and belief. They say that if faith made a difference, it would compromise what Jesus did or make it depend too heavily on man.
This again is just an out right fallacy – in kind with the general thrust of the article in #1] not knowing the subject, and thus #2] seeing it as something else i.e., humanistic or Unitarian universalism. Your post and subsequent remarks are so full of disorder and wrong hypothesis that one hardly knows where to begin to unravel your concoction of convoluted conundrums.
Marcus Booker: Yet it is apparent that final rewards are, quite simply, contingent upon our deserts. Paul said, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." And John says that "those who did the good deeds [will come forth] to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment."
Marcus Booker: With this principle in mind, you will see how our final condition, with respect to rewards and punishments, depends upon our deeds. If our deeds came from Christ's cross, we will achieve glory. Otherwise, shame will be our inheritance.
Again you haven't got a clue as to what I've said, no idea. You are the one making "our final condition" post death, an issue about rewards. What I've said is that "judgment" as it fell in AD70 was all about rewards for works done – either works of righteousness [Tit 3:8] = gain, or works for righteousness [Rom 3:20] = loss.
1Cor 3:13-15 each one's work will become clear; for the Day will declare it, because it will be revealed by fire; and the fire will test each one's work, of what sort it is. If anyone's work which he has built on it endures, he will receive a reward. If anyone's work is burned, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.
You say "If our deeds came from Christ's cross, we will achieve glory." By "glory" – do you hope to "achieve" Heaven upon death, or reward? What is it you are working for?
Judgment however had nothing to do with post mortem destinies. Please produce the Scripture that says it does. The fiery judgment of Gehenna was the DoJ = LoF and wasn't limited to post death activity, but very much something that those who put their allegiance [faith] in Christ escaped. And those that died, what was judged? Them or their works – their works. Judgment was about rewards as per works, NOT whether one became toast. "Confession" or lack thereof be
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