 |
|
|
You know, a prophetess sent me a word through my wife right here, and she said 'Tell your husband that Jesus is going to physically appear in his meetings.' I'm expecting to see - I'm telling you, I feel it's going to happen.
-- Benny Hinn, TBN Praise-a-thon, April 2, 2000
|
|
| |
Preterism: The preterist physical rapture of all the living saints is necessary
Posted on Sunday, November 09 @ 13:23:45 PST by John |
|
preteristdave submitted: "Just because the doctrine of the rapture has been twisted by Tim Lahaye and other futurists (by placing it in the future) doesn't mean its unbiblical. It seems many preterists want to not only throw the baby out with the bath water, but they want to throw the tub out also! Just because futurists are wrong on many doctrines of scripture doesn't mean they have everything wrong.
Many non-rapture preterists bring up the "problem" with the silence surrounding the rapture.
Luke 18:8 "I tell you that He will bring about justice for them quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will He find faith on the earth?"
When Jesus said He would return He said that there would not be many Christians left (because of falling away or being killed by the Jews and Romans). I don't think there were many Christians left to be raptured when Christ returned. Most of the Jewish Christians were in the town of Pella (the mountains) when the rapture occured (Matt 24:16) so no one was able to see it occur. As for the rest of the believers, the rapture was not able to be seen, expected, or understood by unbelievers. Jesus taught this and that's all that matters. Unbelievers cannot understand spiritual things like the rapture. One example of this is Luke 12:46 "the master of that slave will come on a day when he DOES NOT EXPECT HIM and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces, and assign him a place with the unbelievers".
If there wasn't a physical rapture then Paul was not telling the truth when he said (of course Paul didn't lie)"1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we will not all SLEEP (2837), but we will all be changed (Strong's Greek)".
Notice, Paul didn't say "we will not all sleep but some day after Christ returns we will". There also is a strong possibility that John was being told he would POSSIBLY not see physical death in John 21:21-23. Please read the following verses carefully (from the NASB).
Matthew 27:52 The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep (2837) were raised;
John 11:11 This He said, and after that He said to them, "Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep (2837); but I go, so that I may awaken him out of sleep."
Acts 7:60 Then falling on his knees, he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them!" Having said this, he fell asleep (2837).
Acts 13:36 "For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep (2837), and was laid among his fathers and underwent decay;
1 Cor 11:30 For this reason many among you are weak and sick, and a number sleep (2837).
1 Cor 15:6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some have fallen asleep (2837);
1 Cor 15:18 Then those also who have fallen asleep (2837) in Christ have perished.
1 Thess 4:13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep (2837), so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep (2837) in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep (2837).
2 Peter 3:4 and saying, "Where is the promise of His coming? For ever since the fathers fell asleep (2837), all continues just as it was from the beginning of creation."
What does "fell asleep" or "sleep" mean in the Greek (koimao)?
2837 koimao {koy-mah'-o}
from 2749
AV - sleep 10, fall asleep 4, be asleep 2, fall on sleep 1,
be dead 1; 18
1) to cause to sleep, put to sleep
2) metaph.
2a) to still, calm, quiet
2b) to fall asleep, to sleep
2c) to die
Did Paul mean that they would not all take a nap before Christ came? Of course not! All these verses refer to physical death. True, some of the verses are referring to those OT saints who physically died and were currently in Paradise until the resurrection and rapture in 66AD or 67AD (1 Cor 15:20 But now Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who ARE asleep.) So how do we know that "sleep" doesn't mean the actual act of going to Paradise but only physically dying? Look at the references above of the NT saints (after Christ's resurrection) going to sleep.
Let's look at some verses. 1 Thess 4:15 "For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and REMAIN until the coming of the Lord, will not precede (meet the Lord before) those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord."
Cor 15:51 "Behold, I tell you a mystery; WE will NOT ALL SLEEP, but we will all be changed"
Was Paul saying that some of these NT saints would go to Paradise to wait until the resurrection? No, the NT makes it very clear what happens to the NT saint (after Christ's resurrection) when they die.
John 11:25 Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies
2 Cor 5:6 Therefore, being always of good courage, and knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord-- 7 for we walk by faith, not by sight-- 8 we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord.
Revelation 6:9 When the Lamb broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar (in heaven) the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained
Rev 20:4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand (this all is during the transition period, 30-70AD); and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead (OT saints) did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
Paul was clearly teaching that some of his believing audience would never physically die. This is because they were physically raptured in 66AD or 67AD. If any of my fellow Christians see any problems with what I have just shared please let we know. I don't see any other possible view other then a physical rapture because of what I have shared with the Greek.
(For more information please read Ed Stevens' "Expectations Demand a Rapture".)"
|
| |
|
|
Average Score: 2.2
Votes: 10
 |
|
|
^^Go to Top -  E-mail to Friend -  Print -  View PDF -  Subscribe -  Comments RSS
Re: The preterist physical rapture of all the living saints is necessary (Score: 1)
 by SuperSoulFighter on Monday, November 10 @ 10:31:42 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | Dave, thank you for this excellent (and, I believe, Biblically sound) article. I am in agreement with you, as you know. You might find the following info interesting, as a further amplification on the period immediately following the events of 70 AD.
http://www.worldwideschool.org/library/books/hst/roman/TheDeclineandFallofTheRomanEmpire-1/chap45.html |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
Re: The preterist physical rapture of all the living saints is necessary (Score: 1)
by coderguy on Monday, November 10 @ 12:02:33 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | The problem I have always had with a non pre-trib rapture is the purposelessness of a non pre-trib rapture. The pre-trib rapture allows God to remove the church so that he can again bring Israel to the forefront. I know most on the form don't agree with the distinction of Israel and the Church. If that distinction is true the the rapture allows for the resumption of the 70 weeks of Daniel (the final week). The rapture doesn't start the countdown again. It sets the stage for the anti-Christ to come in and sign a false peace with the literal nation of Israel.
I am glad to see that there is an understanding in the difference in the rapture and the second coming. One is an imminent return of Christ (rapture). The other is a coming that can be predicted (2nd Coming). Now before you think I am a date setter, let me explain. I believe that Christ will return 7 years to the day after the anti-Christ signs a peace treaty with Israel. I don't believe that Christians alive now will be there to see that. So I can't set a date for the return of Christ because I don't know when the first event (the peace treaty) will occur. For those mathematical minds think of it this way:
Christ Return = X + 7, where X = the date of the signing of the peace treaty
Also, I noticed that my presence has been missed. The reason that my brother and I have not been on the form is because we are busy students. I hope ya'll continue to "run off" other thinking minds. I don't mean thinking minds to be a pat on the back; rather think of it as an honest assessment.
In His Grip,
Daniel Ice |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by SuperSoulFighter on Monday, November 10 @ 17:10:06 PST
- by coderguy on Monday, November 10 @ 22:01:01 PST
- by Virgil on Tuesday, November 11 @ 13:02:39 PST
- by coderguy on Tuesday, November 11 @ 13:55:52 PST
- by Virgil on Tuesday, November 11 @ 17:55:18 PST
- by SuperSoulFighter on Tuesday, November 11 @ 22:22:47 PST
- by CJ on Wednesday, November 12 @ 05:00:12 PST
- by Virgil on Wednesday, November 12 @ 05:20:59 PST
Re: The preterist physical rapture of all the living saints is necessary (Score: 1)
 by davo on Tuesday, November 11 @ 00:55:06 PST
(User Info | Send a Message) | G'day Dave
The following is my reply [with one or two variations] to your response to me from John's article 'The Ten Virgins' which I posted a number of days back. Since much of what you've put in the above article is the same in content or sentiment I thought I might cut n' paste my response here accordingly - as you asked for feedback.
In relation to 1Cor 15:51-53 you said:
preteristdave: Paul here clearly states that not all the believers he is speaking to would experience physical death. If they would have died anytime after the last trumpet was sounded then Paul's statement "we will not all sleep (physically die)" would not be accurate. The non-rapture preterists has to either ignore these words or say that "we will not all sleep" is referring to only the actual event which occurs when the last trumpet is sound. But nowhere can this be supported by the text, it has to be forced upon it.
How can you say it is not supported by the text – the whole issue is what happens at the Parousia, the Last Trump. Paul is clearly saying that in regards to the Parousia – that not all will die before it occurs. He is not talking about issues past it, but specific to it, so to say that non-rapture preterists ignore the text is wrong.
Clearly from Scripture some firstfruit saints would live through the "Resurrection" – note I said resurrection, not rapture, a non-biblical term.
So He said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or parents or brothers or wife or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who shall not receive many times more in this present time, and in the age to come eternal life." Lk 18:29-30
The "present time" was that soon to end Old Covenant age, the "age to come" was not that of the heaven when you die eternal life of futurism, but that of the consummated New Covenant age. Something some saints would live into i.e., post Parousia.
that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us [audience relevance] in Christ Jesus. Eph 2:7
It was not a necessity that the pre Parousia saints die to experience the "the ages to come".
preteristdave: There is no reason to believe that Paul's language is non-literal in this passage. Every preterist I've read believes that the "dead will be raised" and will "meet the Lord in the air" in this verses is speaking of the literal snatching away of the dead OT saints from Paradise to heaven.
Literal yes, but physical no.
Re Jn 21:22-24 you said:
preteristdave: "If I want him to remain UNTIL I come" can mean that John would possibly live until Christ's Parousia and in addition it could mean that John would not be living on earth after the last trumpet sounded. Jesus' language makes it sound like there is a possibility that John would not be on earth anymore after He came.
This is mere speculation. Surely you've read the arguments re UNTIL and the Lord's Supper – UNTIL does not necessitate a terminus. Till I come, give attention to reading, to exhortation, to doctrine. 1Tim 4:13. UNTIL/TILL is a time referent.
preteristdave: Matthew 19:28 And Jesus said to them, "Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Jesus here makes it clear that not only the disciples who died before Christ's Parousia would sit on thrones in heaven but all twelve of the disciples would. This requires a physical rapture before the judging of the tribes.
It only requires a physical rapture because your assumptions demand so. There is nothing clear here saying anyt
Read the rest of this comment... |
[ To reply to this, please login or register ]
- by preteristdave on Tuesday, November 11 @ 08:29:14 PST
- by davecollins on Tuesday, November 11 @ 17:01:52 PST
| 
|
