You are hereWikleaks releases disturbing video

Wikleaks releases disturbing video

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By Virgil - Posted on 06 April 2010

Yesterday Wikileaks released a previously secret video recorded from an Apache helicopter allegedly showing U.S. forces opening fire on a crowd of unarmed civilians, including a reporter and his aid. The video and pictures are quite disturbing so keep that in mind before watching it. Below is the short version - it still includes footage where a minivan stopped to pickup the wounded civilians and it was also fired on; two little girls were inside the van. If you cannot stomach the video, you can read the transcript.

Islamaphobe's picture

I suggest that in evaluating this "proof" of the viciousness of the U.S. military, you might do well to check the article by Bill Roggio entitled "'Collateral Murder' in Baghdad Anything But" posted at weeklystandard.com on April 5. To put it mildly, Roggio offers a different interpretation.

John S. Evans

MiddleKnowledge's picture

John,

Are you comfortable with what you saw?

Does it bother your conscience?

Is this what will defeat Islam around the world?

My little brother came home after 2 tours in Iraq. He was one of those Marines in Fallujah. I think I mentioned him once before to you. He actually likes the Iraqis quite a bit. He's studying now in order to be able to work abroad. However...

You should hear the stories he told of what the US Military Machine did to these people on a daily basis. Nothing in this video surprised me one bit because I was told about multiple events and things far worse than this episode by my little brother who was there. It was "taking care of business" for sure. That is the problem. It's just business.

My little brother came home a completely different person than when he left. He will tell you this himself.

There is more to the story, too. What's most alarming to me is that many of the tactics and techniques he engaged in while on duty in Iraq are now being implemented in police and paramilitary forces everywhere inside this country. Seems like Iraq (and other various venues of foreign escapades) was merely the "testing ground" to work out the bugs for domestic use. The Federal Government has already shot peaceful human beings on American soil, including a woman holding her infant child. They also burned scores of men, women and children alive using tanks. Right here in America.

The sooner this empire is made clawless and toothless the better. The world will be a much better place when even Americans come to their senses and see this senseless brutality for what it is. That is the nice thing about this video. It's raw, undoctored, uncensored. There is a reason the government did not want it out in public.

King George or Obama. No difference to me.

Tim Martin

Islamaphobe's picture

Tim,

In the words of Sherman, "War is hell." Like it or not, we are in a war, and that war is not going to go away if we get out of Iraq and Afghanistan. I can understand your opinion, but I remain unmoved by your comments. Incidentally, I have served in the U.S. Army, though not in a combat zone.

JSE

Virgil's picture

John, but Tim does have a point. It is not right to justify mistakes or justify the video by just saying "it's war."

True, we don't know ALL the circumstances or the context of the actions filmed in the video, but as Christians first (not as Americans) we have a duty in the Kingdom of God to seek out injustice and point it out wherever we see it, not just when it's directed against Americans by Islamic extremists.

Personally I cannot justify what I watched...I can't. Maybe it's because I have never been in the military, but still, I cannot justify it.

Virgil's picture

Here is the article John mentioned in his comment: http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/collateral-murder-baghdad-anything

I do object to the idea in the article that the firing on the civilian van was justified because "it had no ambulance markings." That's a BS argument. In Iraq there are no ambulances to be market to begin with - most of the times people's private vehicles are used to transport sick and wounded people.

Sam's picture

For the other side of the story, as John Evans suggested, go here:
http://www.weeklystandard.com/blogs/collateral-murder-baghdad-anything

I support our troops. Radical Islam will not be defeated with flowers.

kingdomsaint7's picture

Only the love of Christ will defeat them. :)

Sam's picture

Well, when one of them comes to my home to blow me up, I have the love of Christ waiting for them in the name of Remington.

Virgil's picture

Sam, these people were unarmed and had cameras in their hands...they were just hanging out at a street corner. Two kids were in the van...they were not trying to blow up anyone.

We need to call out evil and wrong when we see it, no matter what country or religion.

davo's picture

I'm afraid Virgil in your part of the world 'the gospel of Remington' is fairly ingrained… unfortunately IMO – shoot first ask [if you dare] later.

mazuur's picture

Virgil,

They were not unarmed! Not sure what video you watched. One had a RPG, others had AK47s. Clearly they were insurgents. While some of the others may not have been, but if you're going to hang out with the likes of insurgents, well, that makes you one too. They probably just don't have the nerve to pick up a gun (or RPG) and kill Americans. But, make no mistake, they will support them anyway they can outside picking up a gun.

Now, while it did break my heart to see those two kids on the seen, you saw what the Americans could see. Could you tell they were children? I would say no. You merely have hindsight. When you're a jet fighter or helicopter pilot, you don't have the opportunity to only fire at the bad guy when he's standing in front of you with a gun getting ready to shoot.

-Rich

kingdomsaint7's picture

They were carrying cameras, brother. The guys who shot the kids admitted they were kids on the video. He even said something to the extent of "well that's what you get for bringing your kids to a war"... Then they laughed about how they shot them through the windshield. Its pretty sick stuff. I'm just going by what the guys said on the video, I'm not trying to put myself in their shoes, because if I did that, I wouldn't have shot kids period. We know not all soldiers are like this, hopefully this was a bad, bad unit.

MiddleKnowledge's picture

http://www.lewrockwell.com/blog/lewrw/archives/55305.html

Some will probably "support the troops" on this stuff, too.

Tim Martin

Virgil's picture

God bless America!

mazuur's picture

Kingdomsaint,

First, yes there were a couple carry cameras. The others had RPG and AK47s. Did you not see them (do I need to tell you the exact second in the video where you see them?) and/or hear the pilot state one had an RPG and others had AK47s? Did you watch the same video as me? The one with the RPG was even peaking around the corner looking as a look out. Sheesh, do you have selective seeing?

Concerning the dude carrying cameras. So, what? If you're going to be stupid enough to hand out with insurgents just so you can get the "big scoop", then you take the chance of being there when they get attached. I suppose if a camera man was able to ride along in one of our tanks, the enemy shouldn't shoot at them because there is a camera man riding along. Pretty lame position to take if you ask me. Heck, I think you've just discovered the secret of winning all future wars. Just have a camera man ride along side our soldiers and no one will fire on them.

Second, yes the pilot said "well that's what you get for bringing your kids to a war", but that was only after the fact. After the ground troops showed up, was able to look inside the van and discover there were kids. Then it was communicated over the radio to which they then made the statement, because only then did they know they were kids. Are you purposely twisting/mis-stating the facts for your insurgent pity party ? I also find it funny how you want to have all this outrage against the Americans but you don't seem to have any for the freakin' dudes who brought the kids to the scene in the first place! They bring two kids to the scene of a major engagement two minutes after it happened, the pilot can't see who is in the van, he fires on what seems to logically be more insurgents coming to the aid of their buddies and you want to blame them?????? Unbelievable!

-Rich

kingdomsaint7's picture

Just cameras, no rpgs. I am going by what was in the video and what they said. You are adding an entirely emotional commentary. And going by what's the in the video, its detestable and abusive. Abuse does occur in war... its call war crimes. "Its just war" is the "lame excuse" and the same one the Nazis and Commies used to justify the genocide of millions. There's no need to twist me words here and say that I'm accusing you of being a Nazi, etc. I'm just going by what they said, and what was in the video. Nothing in that video was "logical". Defend it if you want, but it was not logical at all. They knew they were children beforehand, watch the video. Its funny you say that about using a camera crew as a shield, because the link another poster put up said that Americans used children as shields in the way you're criticizing about. There's no excuse to fire on children - NONE.

mazuur's picture

"Just cameras, no rpgs. I am going by what was in the video and what they said"

Then you're blind. When I get home tonight I will mark the exact seconds in the video where you can see a dude carrying a RPG twice just so you can look. I'll do the same for the Ak47s. You truly do have selective vision. Unbelievable.

"You are adding an entirely emotional commentary"

I did no such thing. I commented on what is in the video. What is funny is you say, "I am going by what was in the video and what they said", yet the video shows the PRG, the AK47s, and you hear the pilot say such is the case. You even have one dude crawling around alive, and the pilot stating he is not going to shoot, however if the dude goes for a weapon, then he will engage again. I almost believe you haven't watched the video.

"Its just war"

I never said it's "just war". War is simple though. You see the bad guy you kill him. That is what they did. They saw insurgents with weapons and they shot them. Still don't hear any outrage against those poor insurgents (who would shoot you on sight as well) for bring children to the scene in the first place. That alone should demonstrate to all your complete loss of rationalization. To excuse that, and blame the pilots is just beyond my comprehension.

"They knew they were children beforehand, watch the video"

Yes, indeed watch it. Have you even watch it, or are you going on what you have heard? Did you watch the video Virgil posted above, or some edited one by the insurgents? The pilots did not know there were children until the ground troops showed up 5 minutes after the engagement, looked inside the van and discovered they were there. It was then communicated over radio that there were two children. That is when the pilots found out. That is when they then stated "that is what they get for bring their children to a gun fight". The video is right there dude, go watch it again. I can't believe you can sit there and say what you do when the evidence is right there for all to watch. You act as if no one can watch it to see who is right.

-Rich

kingdomsaint7's picture

No, it was one man with a camera. There were no weapons. The soldiers had selective vision, and you have your mind made up to defend them no matter what. Accusing me of not watching the video is stupid. Please don't start this straw man shenanigans. If its beyond your comprehension not to kill kids no matter what, then that's your problem, not mine. I'm in the right both morally and biblically. I'm sure that some over there would kill me. Trust me, I subscribe to 'Voice of the Martyrs', I know what happens over there. But you are using that as an excuse for violence and murder when there is no authority from Jesus to react in such a faithless way.

I posted the video a day before Virgil did and I watched it in entirety and I am still ashamed that its what goes on over there and made excuses for by anything but the words of Jesus. We talk a lot about the spiritual kingdom, and why people still cling to the physical... but you show yourself to be clinging to what is physical still, in this example. In justifying murder, we're no different from the world. I'm a Christian first, not second or last.

You can clearly hear the soldiers laughing that the kids were in there and that it was too bad for them. Then they laughed about how they got them through the windshield. Its detestable. I notice all the things you accuse me of is in reality what you are doing. Why lie? Why defend this filth? If Jesus is your Lord then how can you defend violence? Put aside your emotional rantings and just accept what it is, brother.

mazuur's picture

Ok, so when I take still shots from the video and post them with arrows pointing to the weapons along with the timeline from the video, I suppose you going to sit there, look at the weapons and deny they're carry them. I can't wait until I get home tonight. This is unbelievable.

"If its beyond your comprehension not to kill kids no matter what, then that's your problem, not mine."

What a freakin' twist job. Here are my words:

"Still don't hear any outrage against those poor insurgents...for bring children to the scene in the first place. That alone should demonstrate to all your complete loss of rationalization. To excuse that, and blame the pilots is just beyond my comprehension."

Just where do you even get the slightest impression I said it is beyond my comprehension not to kill kids??????? I said it was beyond my comprehension that you want to blame the US military and hold them at fault, but you don't want to hold the very dudes who brought the kids to the scene in the first place at fault.

You my friend are the one doing the lying here. Christian first uh? Looks more like save face first, then be a Christian.

-Rich

kingdomsaint7's picture

Yes, when you show me these stills of the reporter carrying his camera and tell me its an AK, I won't really care. This story was important in the first place because it was leaked. Why was it leaked? Because it was being suppressed for the fact that the innocent reporter and children were murdered while soldiers laughed.

I did not twist your words one bit.

I haven't lied once. I've even asked you not a few times now to show me where Christian self defense is preached by Christ or the apostles - you've instead shut down and started to insult me. Nice fruits, must be a real nice tree too. There's no NT teaching from Jesus to kill - period. There's no NT teaching from Jesus to kill the "bad guys" before they kill you - period. Jesus prayed for those who crucified him; Steven prayed for those who stoned him; Paul prayed for those who flogged him and rejected the gospel. I see that becoming more "American" we are becoming less Christian. Hate me if you want, but I'm going to practice what I preach.

kingdomsaint7's picture

Did the firstfruits church murder back their Jewish persecutors? Did they murder back their Roman torturers from Nero onward? Who does God say to leave vengeance to? Is the healing of the nations brought about by the gospel or by holy hand grenades?

mazuur's picture

Interesting statement. No the firstfruits did not murder back (funny you use the word "murder". Is self-defense murder, or killing?) The first fruits did leave the vengeance to God. And God did take vengeance using the Romans army, and they did a whole lot worse than what the Helicopter pilots did with those insurgents. How do you know God isn't taking vengeance using the US Military? You don't! And is the US Military the "Church" taking vengeance? No.

While I'm on this topic. What do you think about all the kids and babies that were in Jerusalem when God sent in Roman to slaughter them? Was that "healing of the nations brought about by the gospel or by holy hand grenades?" Did that act seem completely cold and outrageous on God's part?

-Rich

kingdomsaint7's picture

Do you have any examples from Scripture or that period of history showing even self defense? No. We only have examples of people, starting with Jesus, praying for their persecutors and preaching the gospel to them as they were killed. The pattern continues in Acts 7 with Steven. Give me an example of Christian self defense and I'll concede my point. The Christians' leaving vengeance to God was carried out by PAGANS, not Christians. God used the evil people to do his will against another evil people. The truth is that only the EVIL people waged physical war, the GOOD people waged spiritual war, and died for it, not wishing any harm on their destroyers. That's faith put to the ultimate test. They made no excuses for the profound teachings of Jesus.

No, it was not outrageous and cold for GOD to use the Romans against a wicked generation. They demise was foretold centuries before, and God's wrath is justice against those who had the blood of ALL the saints, prophets, apostles and his own Son on their heads. The "healing of the nations" is the gospel - Jerusalem wasn't to be healed because they yet again resisted the Holy Spirit. The "NATIONS" were what was and are healed because the gospel went out from Jerusalem into them.

Please don't use the gospel to justify what you saw in the video. That's just now right, brother. In no way does it fulfill anything Christ taught, it only contradicts it.

mazuur's picture

uh? Dude, are you reading my post? Or maybe having a conversation with yourself?

-Rich

kingdomsaint7's picture

Apparently I am. You dodge my Scriptural basis for your conclusions and then accuse me of not watching the video... dude.

mazuur's picture

I think you are. As your words had nothing to do with the point I was making. It really does seem as if you are talking to yourself, aided by what you what me to be saying in order to reply with what you want to say.

-Rich

kingdomsaint7's picture

Apparently I am. You dodge my Scriptural basis for your conclusions and then accuse me of not watching the video... dude.

kingdomsaint7's picture

My lunch break is over now, I've got to get back to work. This should end here since you're becoming too emotional and angry at me for no reason. I stand by what I said, hate me if you must. Peace.

mazuur's picture

-Rich

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Rich,

Thanks for the work of isolating those frames, but I really think you are mistaken.

What that guy had was short and blocky... a camera. You know, a nice one with an expensive lens on the front. The kind newspaper reporters and the like carry around with them to take pictures.

RPGs are long skinny things with a big fat pointy head on them. They are usually fired from the shoulder, not like an ordinary rifle.

That was no RPG in the frame. The claimed "AK-47s" could have been virtually anything carried by any pedestrian in any major city of the world any day of the week.

Plus consider this.

If those were RPGs and AK 47s and they were found on location after the dust settled, do you think the military would have stonewalled releasing that video? They had total vindication on screen if that was actually a RPG.

And then think of the circumstances. I mean, what reporter located in a war zone is going to run around town with AKs and RPGs hanging out in full visibility. I think not. Or at least, it is a most unlikely scenario.

It took years to get that video out, and the expertise to decrypt it so it could be released. The military was betting it would never see the light of day.

That's the beauty of the information technology revolution. The truth gets out uncensored, undoctored, and in the full light of day.

The reason this video is having its effect is that it shows something very, very wrong -- at many different levels and for many different reasons.

Blessings,

Tim Martin

mazuur's picture

C'mon Tim. I gave you the time marks. Watch those time marks in motion. Two dudes carrying AK47s. As they move and turn sideways the guns are as clear as clear gets. Same goes with the RPG. The motion makes is clear for all to see. There is no way one can confuse that RPG with a camera. You can see at least 4 feet of the thing hanging around the corner as the dude peaks around it looking to see if things are clear. And why is he looking to see if things are clear (answer is below)?

"And then think of the circumstances. I mean, what reporter located in a war zone is going to run around town with AKs and RPGs hanging out in full visibility. I think not. Or at least, it is a most unlikely scenario.

yeah, let's. Do you even understand the circumstances? Did you even pay attention to what is going on in the video? The two reports don't start off "hanging" with the insurgents. Notice they are in a big hurry to get somewhere. Where are they in such a big hurry to get? They're trying to hook up with the insurgents that had just fled a long engagement with the US Military, who was currently still on the move looking for them. Notice the entire city is empty. Its empty because there was a long engagement that just took place. Happens every time. The insurgents in the video are some who got away from that engagement. What you are seeing is the two reporters finally catching up with some insurgents ( the reason they're in a big hurry) who had just fled the engagement and were thinking it was over and were in a safe zone. This is when the two reports finally caught up with them so they could get their "big story". Problem was the US military also finally caught up with them. The reporters were in the wrong place at the wrong time. As I said before, if you're going to hang out with the likes of insurgents, then you take the chance of getting killed right along with them. No different that in WWII for a German reported. If he is going to put himself right there on the front lines with the soldiers, then they're going to get shot/bombed right along with the other Germans.

-Rich

Islamaphobe's picture

Rich,

Thanks for taking the trouble to spell all this out. You have more patience than I do.

Mistakes do happen, and no doubt we do have some bad guys on our side. But look at what they have to confront! Thank God for those who are willing to fight for our nation and our way of life.

The ultimate outcome of Islam's war against the rest of the world depends on the winning of hearts and minds. That fact explains, in part, why we at least try to act like a civilized people. Our enemies dominate the media in predominantly Islamic countries, and they use every opportunity they can to propagandize against us while lying about their own behavior. Those who speak out against them do so at the risk of their life.

It doesn't help our cause when people in this nation pour more fuel on the propaganda fire and join our enemies in playing the misinformation game. Still, blatant incidents of barbaric behavior by our troops should be recognized; but should we, for example, give far more attention to them than we do to the barbarism of those who literally persecute Christians and engage in genuine terrorism? Compare, for example, the media treatment of the incident being discussed with the wholesale massacre of Christians in northern Nigeria by Fulani Muslims.

John S. Evans

mazuur's picture

John,

I agree. Take a look at the pictures I posted. I added a picture that shows an RPG as clear as day.

-Rich

-Rich

mazuur's picture

"The reason this video is having its effect is that it shows something very, very wrong"

The reason this video is having the effect it is, is because it shows something very strong, not wrong. You as an American are so sheltered the slightest amount of real violence hits you hard. Sure you've seen combat video before but it is always editing so you see nothing but maybe a tank shooting at a building. You never get to see the body parts flying at the other end of that shot and life being snuffed out in an instant. You never get to see the real carnage. That's so you can remain in your sheltered world. The saying "War is Hell" exist for a reason. Believe me, if you were able to see the actual carnage even from WWII when American troops were engaged with the Germans on a frontline, you would have the same reaction. Only who would you want to put to blame then? The American troops again?

-Rich

mazuur's picture

Tim,

"If those were RPGs and AK 47s and they were found on location after the dust settled, do you think the military would have stonewalled releasing that video? They had total vindication on screen if that was actually a RPG."

The Military has thousands of hours of footage from thousands of engagements (every helicopter, jet fighter, and who knows how much from ground troops). They weren't stonewalling anything. They never release combat footage outside footage that doesn't really show actual carnage. In other words, footage that just shows maybe a tank shooting some far away building, to which you as a viewer only see a wall blow up. Or, maybe some Marines up on top of a roof shooting their guns out into the city somewhere at some bad guys that you can't see. Notice you never get to see those bullets hit anything, like another person's head. This incident is the very reason why they don't release such footage. Sheltered Americans (like you) can't handle what really goes on in war. By "really goes on", I mean bodies getting blown apart, heads blasted off, etc.. People in our culture can't handle seeing things like that. They immediately want to lash out and they always lash out against whoever is doing the shooting at that moment in time, whether the good guy or bad guy. However, if they were to only see what the person who our guys just shot 1/2 hour earlier as he probably just shot an American while engaged with their earlier, suddenly they wouldn't feel so "outraged". Context is everything, and what that video shows is one little snippet of a much larger context (engagement).

Concerning, "They had total vindication on screen if that was actually a RPG" It is a RPG (and AK47s) which is why the pilot shot them (you even hear the pilot say so as he is looking at them), and why the Military has stated that the engagement was completely valid (vindicated), which I agree.

-Rich

kingdomsaint7's picture

You spoke in truth and honesty. There's nothing more you can say. They want to see RPG's and AK's because its a hit to pride to hear chortling soldiers slaughter innocent children and reporters. None of the points either of us made were addressed, especially mine concerning justification for murder or waging war as the world does. You said what needed to be said and your points were indisputable. Thanks for your courage to speak out against political whitewash, not many people have the guts for in these days.

davo's picture

Who's really sheltered…

This is but the tip of a very ugly iceberg. No doubt given enough time more disgusting photos will appear from Abu Ghraib and the like. There is just so much more to come out about these wicked conflicts – click HERE.

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