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Who is Afraid of Postmodernism?


By Virgil - Posted on 30 January 2007

by Virgil Vaduva
Eric Rauch of American Vision has been writing a series of articles on the topic of postmodernism and its evils, but Eric does not seem to be doing justice to those whom he is criticizing. I am certain his intentions are noble and honest, but Eric seems to be misrepresenting specific people and entire philosophical systems. I am hoping that American Vision will perhaps reconsider its position regarding emerging Christianity and learn to see the positive facets of Christian postmodernism.Eric Rauch of American Vision has been writing a series of articles on the topic of postmodernism and its evils, but Eric does not seem to be doing justice to those whom he is criticizing. I am certain his intentions are noble and honest, but Eric seems to be misrepresenting specific people and entire philosophical systems. I am hoping that American Vision will perhaps reconsider its position regarding emerging Christianity and learn to see the positive facets of Christian postmodernism.There is nothing outside the text

Since most of American Vision’s criticism is aimed at postmodernism, I want to first of all point out something that most critics ignore for some reason or another, and that is the –ism nature of the system. Thomas Carlyle, the Scottish author and historian was one of the first writers to coin the concept of an –ism in that he observed that the “hopes and aspirations of people that took the form of ideas were often ossified into ideologies of –isms.” Such has become the system of postmodernism which is being attacked by so many critics today. It should be noted by both critics and proponents that postmodernism has in a sense become what its skeptic fathers and grandfathers, like Kierkegaard, Nietzsche and even Derrida wanted to avoid the most: a relatively objective means used to arrive to a conclusion, driven by rationality and modern certainty. It has been only recently that postmodern thinking has been synthesized into an –ism, mostly by its critics, all the while others continue to struggle to define and understand post-modernity as an evolutionary movement rather than another –ism-atic event in the world of philosophy or theology.

This struggle often manifests itself into outbursts or accusations of “relativism” or “liberalism” which are, as far as I am concerned, empty of any substance and a bit Johnny-come-lately in the world of theological and philosophical debate. As far back as Augustine, deconstruction has been a valuable tool for the Christian theologian. Folks like the French philosopher Jacques Derrida have dealt very successfully with those accusations and demonstrated how deconstruction (at least in the literary-philosophical sense) can lead to a much richer understanding of a text. In essence Derrida’s deconstruction processes suggested that the understanding of thought or belief (in the framework of philosophical of perhaps even theological criticism) should involve the “discovery, recognizance and understanding of the underlying—and unspoken and implicit—assumptions, ideas, and frameworks that form the basis for thought and belief.”

Derrida’s famous declaration “there is nothing outside the text” is little more than Luther’s “sola scriptura” credo, so in the most Biblical sense, Jacques Derrida should be a Christian’s best friend. While early Christian critics of Derrida were looking for reasons to present his deconstruction as being antithetical to Christianity, we can now better understand that “there is nothing outside of text” is a crucial part in the process and method of understanding in which “interpretation is everything.”[1]

This kind of methodology is very much unpalatable to the modern Christian, mostly because it requires the unfamiliar effort of defending long-established standards, and to the modern mind, something can only be true if it is known objectively, uniformly, and also universally by all people in all places at all times. This raises new questions regarding the interpreted status of the Gospel. John Owen observed this when he stated: “That Jesus Christ was crucified, is a proposition that any natural [i.e. unregenerate] man may understand and assent to, and be said to receive: and all the doctrines of the gospel may be taught in propositions and discourses, the sense and meaning of which a natural man may understand; but it is denied that he can receive the things themselves. For there is a wide difference between the mind’s receiving doctrines notionally, and receiving the things taught in the really.”[2]

In essence Owen is subscribing to a very non-traditional apologetic, in that the foundation proposition of Christianity, namely that Christ was crucified, needs in itself to be interpreted in order to become a reality; i.e. there is a difference between receiving doctrine “notionally” and receiving doctrine “really.”

If language and experience are then mere vehicles for a message that always has to be interpreted, how should we be affected as followers of Christ, especially when we espouse public theology or condemn (or damn) others for their theology or doctrine? The problem is therefore with the modern Christian who would insist on subscribing to the notion that “something can be true only if it can be known objectively” rather than allowing for a deconstructive method of interpretation which brings to light other possibilities.

A Mysterious Faith

But this modern framework for Christianity is creating major problems for the new generations and for non-western cultures in which objective and rational knowledge is not necessarily the root of all truth. In essence one could reason that modernism's quest to explain and understand the mysteries of all things in the Universe is rationalism at its best or humanism at its worst; modernism is then hardly compatible with traditional apologetics.

While critics of postmodernism often appeal to propositional truth as being the required context of everything, they glance over the mysterious aspect of their supposed Biblical and propositional truth. Defending Biblical truth, Eric Rauch quotes Gary DeMar: “When Genesis opens with the simple declaration “In the beginning God,” it does not argue for God’s existence; it assumes and asserts it. It is the grand presupposition of the creation narrative. In the believing worldview, the infinite, eternal, personal God absolutely exists and is the ground of all being.”[3]

Eric concludes that “We must begin where God begins. If the culture is skeptical of propositional truth, then that should only serve as a confirmation of where we need to begin.”[4] This conclusion again illustrates the problematic framework and assumptions under which modern Christianity operates. Is Eric willing to reject all other presuppositions and settle for just one, “God exists?” If so, why then criticize the postmodern Christians, since they all subscribe to this truth? If not, how are the other propositional truths founded on this very first truth? How did Eric’s modern Christianity for example conclude that slavery is immoral just because “God exists?” Furthermore, Eric thinks he understands the beginning because this beginning comes from God (since it is written in the Bible), yet he still has to intellectually interpret this beginning. Thus the propositional truth preached by Eric is not propositional truth at all; instead Eric is giving us his interpretation of the beginning. To Eric, the beginning of Genesis 1:1 is the beginning of God’s creation of the entire Universe; to a Jewish scholar, Genesis 1:1 is the beginning of God’s creative process regarding life on Earth.[5] To Eric, God possibly created the entire Universe several thousand years ago; to some Jewish scholars God created the Universe and the Earth a very long time ago and perhaps created human life just in the more recent history of the planet. To Eric, God simply created the universe; to a Jew, God used the Torah as the blueprint for the creation. To different people, the beginning of Genesis 1:1 means different things as a result of different interpretations. Clearly things are not as straightforward as Eric claims. My point is simply to show that Eric’s methodology is simply not working.

As you can see, this is how the lines between propositional truth and interpretation become blurry. And this is where the postmodern conversation becomes a valuable tool to be used in the interpretative process. Derrida’s postmodern proclamation “there is nothing outside the text” suddenly becomes quite important when deconstructing Genesis 1:1. If the text itself is the propositional truth and our reading of it is its interpretation, then both modern and postmodern Christians should try to find common and generous ground when interacting and discussing those topics. And simply discussing those topics does not mean rejecting them or somehow dishonoring the inerrancy of the Bible or the sovereignty of God.

Granted that postmodernism has its shortcomings, many modern Christians are rushing headlong to throw out the baby with the bathwater; it is becoming quite en vogue to jump on the “bash emergent/postmoderns” bandwagon. Another example of this is Eric’s condemnation of mystery and paradox which are often embraced by postmodern Christians. Quoting Franky Schaefer’s view of mystery as a reason for his conversion to Greek Orthodoxy, Eric concludes that mystery and truth cannot be compatible: “Like McLaren, Franky views paradox and mystery as a plus. In fact, this is the reason why he converted to the Orthodox church—absolutist certainty is so twentieth century. Schaeffer and McLaren are remaking Christianity in their own image, and then use it as a club against anyone who still believes in Truth.[6]

If truth demands absolute certainty, then Christianity has much bigger problems to deal with than postmodernism. When my children ask me various questions about God, I find myself answering “I do not know” quite often. In the modern eyes that apparently makes me a bad father! The famed Romanian poet and philosopher Lucian Blaga illustrated the need for mystery in human life very well in the following poem:

I will not crush the world’s corolla of wonders[7]

...and I will not kill

with reason

the mysteries I meet along my way

in flowers, eyes, lips and graves.

The light of others

drowns the deep magic hidden

in the profound darkness.

I increase the world’s enigma

with my light

much as the moon with its white beams

does not diminish but increase

the shimmering mystery of night –

I enrich the darkening horizon

with chills of the great secret.

All that is hard to know

becomes a greater riddle

under my very eyes

because I love alike

flowers, lips, eyes and graves.

Blaga noticed something that many Christians notice when they study the scriptures. It is the strange feeling that we often cannot express in a clear way: the more we study and try to learn about God, the less we seem to understand, and the bigger the mystery grows. The white light of the moon “does not diminish but increase the shimmering mystery of night.” Perhaps all of us have experienced this one way or another. We read and study the Bible, and as a result we experience a paradigm shift which reveals to us a new insight into the Scriptures while creating new mysteries to be explored and discovered. This was one of the results of my “conversion” to Preterism. As a result of understanding fulfilled prophecy, I now find myself reassessing other areas of my faith in light of what happened in AD 70.

In Romania older and wiser people often tell the young the story of a man’s quest to understand the rose and its mysteries. This man spends his entire life studying the intricate flower, taking apart each petal and studying them in details, trying to understand how the complex petals fit together, learning about the stem, the structure of the flower, the various colors and species of roses. Yet this entire quest to understand the mystery of the rose ends with this man’s sheer failure to simply admire the beautiful flower for what it truly is, smell it deeply, feel its soft and beautiful petals and share this beautiful flower with someone else.

As I wrote before, mysteries seem to be the greatest motivator for humans to do and accomplish great things: Why? Why climb the Everest? Why land on the Moon? Why explore the Unknown, whatever it may be? Because we can! Because God apparently created us with a spirit willing to explore the mysterious, learn from it and become better people and better Christians in the process.


When Eric Rauch concludes that “Despite “good” intentions, these postmodern Christians are actually hindering the progress of the very gospel that they claim to believe[8] he fails to explain what this gospel really is or how exactly postmodernism hinders the Gospel. He also fails to clarify if this gospel is propositional truth or his interpretation of what the Bible says the Gospel is. Is Eric suggesting that it is the impersonal propositional truth that saves us from Death, or is a genuine relationship with God that saves us? Has God become just another mystery that can be solved by the modern mind, or is he a genuine person that feels, interacts, speaks and loves? After all, is God actually alive?

God is Dead

This is the (in) famous statement made by Friedrich Nietzsche in The Gay Science, a book published in 1882. Much has been made of this statement and to this day Christians avoid Nietzsche for daring to put those words on paper, but often the context is being ignored.

In The Gay Science Nietzsche is using the third person of a madman in order to tell the parable of God’s death at the hands of men. Telling the story of a madman looking for God in the morning with a lantern, in the marketplace, he writes:

The madman jumped into their midst and pierced them with his eyes.”Whither is God?" he cried; "I will tell you. We have killed him---you and I. All of us are his murderers. But how did we do this? How could we drink up the sea? Who gave us the sponge to wipe away the entire horizon? What were we doing when we unchained this earth from its sun? Whither is it moving now? Whither are we moving? Away from all suns? Are we not plunging continually? Backward, sideward, forward, in all directions? Is there still any up or down? Are we not straying, as through an infinite nothing? Do we not feel the breath of empty space? Has it not become colder? Is not night continually closing in on us? Do we not need to light lanterns in the morning? Do we hear nothing as yet of the noise of the gravediggers who are burying God? Do we smell nothing as yet of the divine decomposition? Gods, too, decompose. God is dead. God remains dead. And we have killed him.

How shall we comfort ourselves, the murderers of all murderers? What was holiest and mightiest of all that the world has yet owned has bled to death under our knives: who will wipe this blood off us? What water is there for us to clean ourselves? What festivals of atonement, what sacred games shall we have to invent? Is not the greatness of this deed too great for us? Must we ourselves not become gods simply to appear worthy of it? There has never been a greater deed; and whoever is born after us---for the sake of this deed he will belong to a higher history than all history hitherto.[9]

And in a wonderful and masterful way, Nietzsche concludes in his parable that Churches have become as much the tombs of men as they are the tombs of God:

It has been related further that on the same day the madman forced his way into several churches and there struck up his requiem aeternam deo. Led out and called to account, he is said always to have replied nothing but: "What after all are these churches now if they are not the tombs and sepulchers of God?[10]

Nietzsche’s work illustrates as early as the 1800s that the certainties of the Enlightenment were misplaced and seemed to be at odds with the Christian faith. Unlike what critics suggest, Nietzsche did not literally believe God to be dead but he took on a provocative posture regarding modernism and progress; the madman’s discourse was in fact addressed to Atheists, not Christians and where others saw irreversible human progress offering us answers with certainty, Nietzsche saw the death of the divine; where the Enlightenment broke open the box of universal mysteries, Nietzsche saw humanism covered in the blood of God; and finally when the protagonist searched for God in the church, we finally understand that truly only a madman would try such a thing since modern churches have become little more than tombs or sepulchers for God where Christians do little more than offering an eternal requiem to God.

Rarely can we find a more masterful criticism of Christian-ism, which is Nietzsche’s portrayal of modern Christianity, the pre-packaged ideology and institutionalism that has little resemblance left of Christ’s message. The modernization of the Church has in Nietzsche’s eyes led to nothing short of God’s very death! Yes, God is dead…and modernism killed him! And as if the holy blood dripping from our hands is not bad enough, we continue to kill God every time we affirm ideological formulas over dynamic faith and impersonal creedalism over the enormous mystery of the spiritual surrounding us. To Nietzsche, skepticism was the only comfort to the terrifying tomb bearing the name of God: the church. To the postmodern Christian, mystery is the only comfort keeping God alive and safe from the certainties of modernism.

While Eric Rauch liberally (and strangely) associates New Atheism with the “resurrection of postmodernism,” he also strangely fails to connect the death of God with the rise of absolute certainty in the days of Darwin for example. Instead, Eric resorts to ad-hominem attacks against emerging Church proponents, using words like “religiosity” and suggesting that reading emerging church material would “lull brain cells to sleep.”[11] Yes, apparently modernism is not guilty of anything negative; only the new kid on the block, postmodernism, is responsible for the rebirth of Atheism. In essence, Eric is quite forward when he is suggesting that there is little or no merit to be found either in the emerging Church or postmodernism!

Yet it is only because of the insistence of modernism that the Church continues to offer theological and impersonal solutions to deep spiritual problems experienced by the contemporary generations. Modern Christianity has marketed itself as the solution to all mysteries and problems, when in fact it has very few practical answers to offer, and many ideological solutions available. According to Thomas Carlyle, only those heroes, the dynamic individuals can overcome the ideological formulas imposed by the society and can truly master their present and future; unlike Eric claims, the –isms formulated by these ideologies are holding back the Gospel, not postmodern thinking. Postmoder-ism has its flaws, while a postmodern posture has many benefits to offer.

Christian-ism has replaced Christianity, and modern Christians are holding on for dear life to creeds, ideologies and formulas, allowing interpretation to become propositional truth and looking down on all others who think, act and believe differently.

The solution is not holding on to modernism for dear life or blindly embracing everything postmodernism brings to the table; after all as I already mentioned, postmodern-ism has become just another –ism that needs to be overcome by the heroes of today, as Carlyle suggested. I believe that God wants us to practice discernment and carefully deconstruct the Scriptures in order to construct a better interpretation of who God is, how we can know him better, why he wants a relationship with us and how we can improve those relationships with him and with each other.

In almost every instance, when Jesus was asked direct questions about a certain issue he responded with a parable or a riddle, framed in such a way that it greatly appealed to the minds and the enigmatic desires of his audience. It is the story telling that motivates us to search, grow and not settle for the comfort of the –isms. The stories told by Christ can not and should not be ossified into “ideologies of –isms.” Rather they are meaningful in different ways to different people from different times and different cultures.

Rethinking modernism and some aspects of postmodernism can cause pain and anger on both sides; we often feel that the light we find in the Scriptures reveals as many mysteries as it uncovers anew. Eric is in his own right to question postmodernism, but he is appealing to modernism in order to do so. The irony of using a flawed system to analyze another flawed system is rich, and the analysis gives us little answers and does not compel me to go back to a modern way of thinking or a modern methodology, nor does it encourage me to embrace all things postmodern. Instead perhaps we can together acknowledge the errors of our own ways and look forward to a post-postmodern age where people like Eric and I can together look confidently to a future where our faith can be relevant, powerful and meaningful for all mankind.

[1] James K. A. Smith is making this case in “Whos Afraid of Postmodernism?

[2] John Owen, Holy Spirit, p. 155

[3] Gary DeMar, Pushing the Antithesis: The Apologetic Methodology of Dr. Greg L. Bahnsen (Powder Springs, GA: American Vision, 2007), 49. Available March 2007.

[4] Eric Rauch, The Forbidden Tree of Postmodernism, http://americanvision.org/articlearchive2007/01-25-07.asp

[5] Several schools of thought within Judaism subscribe to the idea that God created the Earth and life on Earth out of pre-existing matter, therefore contradicting the ex-nihilo creation traditional taught by Christians.

[6] Eric Rauch, The Postmodern Resurrection, http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive2007/01-18-07.asp

[7] Lucian Blaga, I will not crush the world’s corolla of wonders, translated by Andrei Codrescu. (Columbus, 1989), 3. The poem first appeared in Glasul Bucovinei (The voice of Bukovina) on January 16, 1919

[8] Eric Rauch, The Postmodern Resurrection, http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive2007/01-18-07.asp

[9] Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science (1882, 1887) para. 125; Walter Kaufmann ed. (New York: Vintage, 1974), pp.181-82.

[10] Friedrich Nietzsche, The Gay Science (1882, 1887) para. 125; Walter Kaufmann ed. (New York: Vintage, 1974), pp.181-82.

[11] Eric Rauch, The Postmodern Resurrection, http://www.americanvision.org/articlearchive2007/01-18-07.asp

JL's picture

From Calvin's Commentary on Genesis:

25. Cursed be Canaan--This doom has been fulfilled in the destruction of the Canaanites--in the degradation of Egypt and the slavery of the Africans, the descendants of Ham.

From the Geneva Bible:

Ge 9:25

9:25 And he said, {r} Cursed [be] Canaan; a {s} servant of servants shall he be unto his brethren.

(r) He pronounces as a prophet the curse of God against all those who do not honour their parents: for Ham and his posterity were cursed.
(s) That is, a most vile slave.

Ge 9:27

9:27 God shall {t} enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant.

(t) He declares that the Gentiles, who came from Japheth, and were separated from the Church, should be joined to the same by the persuasion of God's Spirit, and preaching of the gospel.

Calvin himself declared that all of Ham's descendants were supposed to be slaves.

The Geneva Bible called Ham and his descendants vile and likewise condemned them to be slaves. Japheth's descendants would be added to Seth's through the gospel. This implies that Ham's would not.

This is the Reformed basis for slavery and racism. Ham's descendants were beyond the reach of God's salvation and were condemned as slaves.

Now Jason, it is up to you to prove they didn't mean it.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

MichaelB's picture

More falsehoods exposed
JL claimed Calvin is the father of racism then supposedly quoted Calvin from his commentary on Genesis 9:25. I went to Calvin's commentaries & could not find the quote. So, I did a search & found that the quote JL used wasn't even from Calvin but rather from the Jamieson-Fausset-Brown Commentary.

JFB Commentary (see Gen 9:25)
http://www.ccel.org/ccel/jamieson/jfb.x.i.ix.html?bcb=0

Calvin's commentary on Genesis 9:25 (search for the word "african" & you'll see it's not there)
http://www.ccel.org/c/calvin/comment3/comm_vol01/htm/xv.htm

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Jeff,

Good reasearch.

You could add R.L. Dabney to the list. He was the southern Presbyterian who wrote "A Defense of Virginia and the South."

Ham is the black son whose progeny were perpetually condemned to servitude. You know, Noah had a white son, a yellow son, and a black son. That takes us back to the flood issue again. How interesting,

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

flannery0's picture

"You know, Noah had a white son, a yellow son, and a black son."

It was a miracle! You believe in miracles, don't you, Tim? I heard a rumor that you didn't, so I was just checking.

;)

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Hey,

I didn't make this stuff up.

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

KingNeb's picture

JL,

You must not have read one my last posts to you, but i said that i'm not interested in going back and forth with you until we get the whole "liar" and "name-caller" situation straighten out. You have my phone number...call me when you are ready to acknowledge the problem. Of course, you've told me there is no problem yet you'll continue calling me a "liar"....whatever.

Even then, i'm not interested in playing these little match games with you anymore. I am coming to see that the worst thing i can do is encourage your baloney by going back and forth with you. Your post above is yet another example of horrible reasoning. There is not ONE thing in your entire post that comes even close to proving that Calvinists "INVENTED" racism. Not ONE thing.

You quote one or two lines here and there, make a ridiculous assertion, and then expect people to jump at your every beck and call and address your undeniable "proof".

I've got better things to do and better things to read.

thereignofchrist.com

JL's picture

No Jason,

I do not have your phone number. You demanded mine but you did not reciprocate.

Go read that part of Calvin's commentaries to your friend Leroy and take a picture of the face he makes.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

Kanzei's picture

Postmodernism is almost an undefined term, and for good reason; postmodernism denies definition! (don't believe me, click here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodernism)

To deny definition is to deny the first act of the intellect, aristotelian logic, the rational nature of man, and one's own ability to think.

It denies the scripture when is says "let us reason together".

It denies everything that is Christian.

But as postmodernism is atheistic (it expicitely rejects A Priori knowledge, upon which faith exists. Quine and other postmodernists wrote on this topic), a Christian argument to refute postmodernism cannot be accepted by a postmodernist.

So, I would offer to them the objectivist argument (which they'll also reject, since no argument can have any meaning. truly, nothing is more self righteous than postmodernism since all argumentation is rejected as without foundation (Rorty). In fact, I'm wondering how a postmodernist can hold his own position, since it by definition has no foundation either...but that aside for a moment).

This is Ayn Rand speaking on philosophy and debunking postmodernism (although not by name).

http://gos.sbc.edu/r/rand.html

Address To The Graduating Class Of
The United States Military Academy at West Point,
New York - March 6, 1974

Since I am a fiction writer, let us start with a short short story. Suppose that you are an astronaut whose spaceship gets out of control and crashes on an unknown planet. When you regain consciousness and find that you are not hurt badly, the first three questions in or mind would be: Where am I? How can I discover it? What should I do?

You see unfamiliar vegetation outside, and there is air to breathe; the sunlight seems paler than you remember it and colder. You turn to look at the sky, but stop. You are struck by a sudden feeling: it you don't look, you won't have to know that you are, perhaps, too far from the earth and no return is possible; so long as you don't know it, you are free to believe what you wish--and you experience a foggy, pleasant, but somehow guilty, kind of hope.

You turn to your instruments: they may be damaged, you don't know how seriously. But you stop, struck by a sudden fear: how can you trust these instruments? How can you be sure that they won't mislead you? How can you know whether they will work in a different world? You turn away from the instruments.

Now you begin to wonder why you have no desire to do anything. It seems so much safer just to wait for something to turn up somehow; it is better, you tell yourself, not to rock the spaceship. Far in the distance, you see some sort of living creatures approaching; you don't know whether they are human, but they walk on two feet. They, you decide, will tell you what to do.

You are never heard from again.

This is fantasy, you say? You would not act like that and no astronaut ever would? Perhaps not. But this is the way most men live their lives, here, on earth.

Most men spend their days struggling to evade three questions, the answers to which underlie man's every thought, feeling and action, whether he is consciously aware of it or not: Where am I? How do I know it? What should I do?

By the time they are old enough to understand these questions, men believe that they know the answers. Where am I? Say, in New York City. How do I know it? It's self-evident. What should I do? Here, they are not too sure--but the usual answer is: whatever everybody does. The only trouble seems to be that they are not very active, not very confident, not very happy--and they experience, at times, a causeless fear and an undefined guilt, which they cannot explain or get rid of.

They have never discovered the fact that the trouble comes from the three unanswered questions--and that there is only one science that can answer them: philosophy.

Philosophy studies the fundamental nature of existence, of man, and of man's relationship to existence. As against the special sciences, which deal only with particular aspects, philosophy deals with those aspects of the universe which pertain to everything that exists. In the realm of cognition, the special sciences are the trees, but philosophy is the soil which makes the forest possible.

Philosophy would not tell you, for instance, whether you are in New York City or in Zanzibar (though it would give you the means to find out). But here is what it would tell you: Are you in a universe which is ruled by natural laws and, therefore, is stable, firm, absolute--and knowable? Or are you in an incomprehensible chaos, a realm of inexplicable miracles, an unpredictable, unknowable flux, which your mind is impotent to grasp? Are the tings you see around you real--or are they only an illusion? Do they exist independent of any observer--or are they created by the observer? Are they the object or the subject of man's consciousness? Are they what they are--or can they be changed by a mere act of your consciousness, such as a wish?

The nature of your actions-and of your ambition--will be different, according to which set of answers you come to accept. These answers are the province of metaphysics--the study of existence as such or, in Aristotle's words, of "being qua being"--the basic branch of philosophy.

No matter what conclusions you reach, you will be confronted by the necessity to answer another, corollary question: How do I know it? Since man is not omniscient or infallible, you have to discover what you can claim as knowledge and how to prove the validity of your conclusions. Does man acquire knowledge by a process of reason--or by sudden revelation from a supernatural power? Is reason a faculty that identifies and integrates the material provided by man's senses--or is it fed by innate ideas, implanted in man's mind before he was born? Is reason competent to perceive reality--or does man possess some other cognitive faculty which is superior to reason? Can man achieve certainty--or is he doomed to perpetual doubt?

The extent of your self-confidence--and of your success--will be different, according to which set of answers you accept. These answers are the province of epistemology, the theory of knowledge, which studies man's means of cognition.

These two branches are the theoretical foundation of philosophy. The third branch--ethics--may be regarded as its technology. Ethics does not apply to everything that exists, only to man, but it applies to every aspect of man's life: his character, his actions, his values, his relationship to all of existence. Ethics, or morality, defines a code of values to guide man's choices and actions--the choices and actions that determine the course of his life.

Just as the astronaut in my story did not know what he should do, because he refused to know where he was and how to discover it, so you cannot know what you should do until you know the nature of the universe you deal with, the nature of your means of cognition--and your own nature. Before you come to ethics, you must answer the questions posed by metaphysics and epistemology: Is man a rational being, able to deal with reality--or is he a helplessly blind misfit, a chip buffeted by the universal flux? Are achievement and enjoyment possible to man on earth--or is he doomed to failure and distaste? Depending on the answers, you can proceed to consider the questions posed by ethics: What is good or evil for man--and why? Should man's primary concern be a quest for joy--or an escape from suffering? Should man hold self-fulfillment--or self-destruction--as the goal of his life? Should man pursue his values--or should he place the interests of others above his own? Should man seek happiness--or self-sacrifice?

I do not have to point out the different consequences of these two sets of answers. You can see them everywhere--within you and around you.

The answers given by ethics determine how man should treat other men, and this determines the fourth branch of philosophy: politics, which defines the principles of a proper social system. As an example of philosophy's function, political philosophy will not tell you how mush rationed gas you should be given and on which day of the week--it will tell you whether the government has the right to impost any rationing on anything.

The fifth and last branch of philosophy is esthetics, the study of art, which is based on metaphysics, epistemology and ethics. Art deals with the needs--the refueling--of man's consciousness.

Now some of you might say, as many people do: "Aw, I never think in such abstract terms--I want to deal with concrete, particular, real-life problems--what do I need philosophy for?" My answer is: In order to be able to deal with concrete, particular, real-life problems--i.e., in order to be able to live on earth.

You might claim-as most people do--that you have never been influenced by philosophy. I will ask you to check that claim. Have you ever thought or said the following? "Don't be so sure--nobody can be certain of anything." You got that notion from David Hume (and many, many others), even though you might never have heard of him. Or: "This may be good in theory, but it doesn't work in practice. You got that from Plato. Or: "That was a rotten thing to do, but it's only human, nobody is perfect in this world." You got that from Augustine. Or: "It may be true for you, but it's not true for me." You got it from William James. Or: "I couldn't help it! Nobody can help anything he does." You got it from Hegel. Or: "I can't prove it, but I feel that it's true." You got it from Kant. Or: "It's logical, but logic has nothing to do with reality." You got it from Kant. Or: "It's evil, because it's selfish." You got it from Kant. Have you heard the modern activists say: "Act first, think afterward"? They got it from John Dewey.

Some people might answer: "Sure, I've said those things at different times, but I don't have to believe that stuff all of the time. It may have been true yesterday, but it's not true today." They got it from Hegel. They might say: "Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds." They got it from a very little mind, Emerson. They might say: "But can't one compromise and borrow different ideas from different philosophies according to the expediency of the moment?" They got it from Richard Nixon--who got it from William James.

Now ask yourself: if you are not interested in abstract ideas, why do you (and all men) feel compelled to use them? The fact is that abstract ideas are conceptual integrations which subsume an incalculable number of concretes--and that without abstract ideas you would not be able to deal with concrete, particular, real-life problems. You would be in the position of a newborn infant, to whom every object is a unique, unprecedented phenomenon. The difference between his mental state and yours lies in the number of conceptual integrations your mind has performed.

You have no choice about the necessity to integrate your observations, your experiences, your knowledge into abstract ideas, i.e., into principles. Your only choice is whether these principles are true or false, whether they represent your conscious, rational conviction--or a grab-bag of notions snatched at random, whose sources, validity, context and consequences you do not know, notions which, more often than not, you would drop like a hot potato if you knew.

But the principles you accept (consciously or subconsciously) may clash with or contradict one another; they, too, have to be integrated. What integrates them? Philosophy. A philosophic system is an integrated view of existence. As a human being, you have no choice about the fact that you need a philosophy. Your only choice is whether you define you philosophy by a conscious, rational, disciplined process of thought and scrupulously logical deliberation--or let your subconscious accumulate a junk heap of unwarranted conclusions, false generalizations, undefined contradictions, undigested slogans, unidentified whishes, doubts and fears, thrown together by chance, but integrated by your subconscious into a kind of mongrel philosophy and fused into a single, solid weight: self-doubt, like a ball and chain in the place where your mind's wings should have grown.

You might say, as many people do, that it is not easy always to act on abstract principles. No, it is not easy. But how much harder is it, to have to act on them without knowing what they are?

Your subconscious is like a computer--more complex a computer than men can build--and its main function is the integration of your ideas. Who programs it? Your conscious mind. If you default, if you don't reach any firm convictions, your subconscious is programmed by chance--and you deliver yourself into the power of ideas you do not know you have accepted. But one way or the other, your computer gives you print-outs, daily and hourly, in the form of emotions--which are lightning-like estimates of the things around you, calculated according to your values. If you programmed your computer by conscious thinking, you know the nature of your values and emotions. If you didn't, you don't.

Many people, particularly today, claim that man cannot live by logic alone, that there's the emotional element of his nature to consider, and that they rely on the guidance of their emotions. Well, so did the astronaut in my story. The joke is on him--and on them: man's values and emotions are determined by his fundamental view of life. The ultimate programmer of his subconscious is philosophy--the science which, according to the emotionalists, is impotent to affect or penetrate the murky mysteries of their feelings.

The quality of a computer's output is determined by the quality of its input. If your subconscious is programmed by chance, its output will have a corresponding character. You have probably heard the computer operators' eloquent term "gigo"--which means: "Garbage in, garbage out." The same formula applies to the relationship between a man's thinking and his emotions.

A man who is run by emotions is like a man who is run by a computer whose print-outs he cannot read. He does not know whether its programming is true or false, right or wrong, whether it's set to lead him to success or destruction, whether it serves his goals or those of some evil, unknowable power. He is blind on two fronts: blind to the world around him and to his own inner world, unable to grasp reality or his own motives, and he is in chronic terror of both. Emotions are not tools of cognition. The men who are not interested in philosophy need it most urgently: they are most helplessly in its power.

The men who are not interested in philosophy absorb its principles from the cultural atmosphere around them--from schools, colleges, books, magazines, newspapers, movies, television, etc. Who sets the tone of a culture? A small handful of men: the philosophers. Others follow their lead, either by conviction or by default. For some two hundred years, under the influence of Immanuel Kant, the dominant trend of philosophy has been directed to a single goal: the destruction of man's mind, of his confidence in the power of reason. Today, we are seeing the climax of that trend.

When men abandon reason, they find not only that their emotions cannot guide them, but that they can experience no emotions save one: terror. The spread of drug addiction among young people brought up on today's intellectual fashions, demonstrates the unbearable inner state of men who are deprived of their means of cognition and who seek escape from reality--from the terror of their impotence to deal with existence. Observe these young people's dread of independence and their frantic desire to "belong," to attach themselves to some group, clique or gang. Most of them have never heard of philosophy, but they sense that they need some fundamental answers to questions they dare not ask--and they hope that the tribe will tell them how to live. They are ready to be taken over by any witch doctor, guru, or dictator. One of the most dangerous things a man can do is to surrender his moral autonomy to others: like the astronaut in my story, he does not know whether they are human, even though they walk on two feet.

Now you may ask: If philosophy can be that evil, why should one study it? Particularly, why should one study the philosophical theories which are blatantly false, make no sense, and bear no relation to real life?

My answer is: In self-protection--and in defense of truth, justice, freedom, and any value you ever held or may ever hold.

Not all philosophies are evil, though too many of them are, particularly in modern history. On the other hand, at the root of every civilized achievement, such as science, technology, progress, freedom--at the root of every value we enjoy today, including the birth of this country--you will find the achievement of one man, who lived over two thousand years ago: Aristotle.

If you feel nothing but boredom when reading the virtually unintelligible theories of some philosophers, you have my deepest sympathy. But if you brush them aside, saying: "Why should I study that stuff when I know it's nonsense?"--you are mistaken. It is nonsense, but you don't know it--not so long as you go on accepting all their conclusions, all the vicious catch phrases generated by those philosophers. And not so long as you are unable to refute them.

That nonsense deals with the most crucial, the life-or-death issues of man's existence. At the root of every significant philosophic theory, there is a legitimate issue--in the sense that there is an authentic need of man's consciousness, which some theories struggle to clarify and others struggle to obfuscate, to corrupt, to prevent man from ever discovering. The battle of philosophers is a battle for man's mind. If you do not understand their theories, you are vulnerable to the worst among them.

The best way to study philosophy is to approach it as one approaches a detective story: follow every trail, clue and implication, in order to discover who is a murderer and who is a hero. The criterion of detection is two questions: Why? and How? If a given tenet seems to be true--why? If another tenet seems to be false--why? and how is it being put over? You will not find all the answers immediately, but you will acquire an invaluable characteristic: the ability to think in terms of essentials.

Nothing is given to man automatically, neither knowledge, nor self-confidence, nor inner serenity, nor the right way to use his mind. Every value he needs or wants has to be discovered, learned and acquired--even the proper posture of his body. In this context, I want to say that I have always admired the posture of West Point graduates, a posture that projects man in proud, disciplined control of his body. Well, philosophical training gives man the proper intellectual posture--a proud, disciplined control of his mind.

In your own profession, in military science, you know the importance of keeping track of the enemy's weapons, strategy and tactics--and of being prepared to counter them. The same is true in philosophy: you have to understand the enemy's ideas and be prepared to refute them, you have to know his basic arguments and be able to blast them.

In physical warfare, you would not send your men into a booby trap: you would make every effort to discover its location. Well, Kant's system is the biggest and most intricate booby trap in the history of philosophy--but it's so full of holes that once you grasp its gimmick, you can defuse it without any trouble and walk forward over it in perfect safety. And, once it is defused, the lesser Kantians--the lower ranks of his army, the philosophical sergeants, buck privates, and mercenaries of today--will fall of their own weightlessness, by chain reaction.

There is a special reason why you, the future leaders of the United States Army, need to be philosophically armed today. You are the target of a special attack by the Kantian-Hegelian-collectivist establishment that dominates our cultural institutions at present. You are the army of the last semi-free country left on earth, yet you are accused of being a tool of imperialism--and "imperialism" is the name given to the foreign policy of this country, which has never engaged in military conquest and has never profited from the two world wars, which she did not initiate, but entered and won. (It was, incidentally, a foolishly overgenerous policy, which made this country waste her wealth on helping both her allies and her former enemies.) Something called "the military-industrial complex"--which is a myth or worse--is being blamed for all of this country's troubles. Bloody college hoodlums scream demands that R.O.T.C. units be banned from college campuses. Our defense budget is being attacked, denounced and undercut by people who claim that financial priority should be given to ecological rose gardens and to classes in esthetic self-expression for the residents of the slums.

Some of you may be bewildered by this campaign and may be wondering, in good faith, what errors you committed to bring it about. If so, it is urgently important for you to understand the nature of the enemy. You are attacked, not for any errors or flaws, but for your virtues. You are denounced, not for any weaknesses, but for your strength and your competence. You are penalized for being the protectors of the United States. On a lower level of the same issue, a similar kind of campaign is conducted against the police force. Those who seek to destroy this country, seek to disarm it--intellectually and physically. But it is not a mere political issue; politics is not the cause, but the last consequence of philosophical ideas. It is not a communist conspiracy, though some communists may be involved--as maggots cashing in on a disaster they had no power to originate. The motive of the destroyers is not love for communism, but hatred for America. Why hatred? Because America is the living refutation of a Kantian universe.

Today's mawkish concern with and compassion for the feeble, the flawed, the suffering, the guilty, is a cover for the profoundly Kantian hatred of the innocent, the strong, the able, the successful, the virtuous, the confident, the happy. A philosophy out to destroy man's mind is necessarily a philosophy of hatred for man, for man's life, and for every human value. Hatred of the good for being the good, is the hallmark of the twentieth century. This is the enemy you are facing.

A battle of this kind requires special weapons. It has to be fought with a full understanding of your cause, a full confidence in yourself, and the fullest certainty of the moral rightness of both. Only philosophy can provide you with these weapons.

The assignment I gave myself for tonight is not to sell you on my philosophy, but on philosophy as such. I have, however, been speaking implicitly of my philosophy in every sentence--since none of us and no statement can escape from philosophical premises. What is my selfish interest in the matter? I am confident enough to think that if you accept the importance of philosophy and the task of examining it critically, it is my philosophy that you will come to accept. Formally, I call it Objectivism, but informally I call it a philosophy for living on earth. You will find an explicit presentation of it in my books, particularly in Atlas Shrugged.

In conclusion, allow me to speak in personal terms. This evening means a great deal to me. I feel deeply honored by the opportunity to address you. I can say--not as a patriotic bromide, but with full knowledge of the necessary metaphysical, epistemological, ethical, political and esthetic roots--that the United States of America is the greatest, the noblest and, in its original founding principles, the only moral country in the history of the world. There is a kind of quiet radiance associated in my mind with the name West Point--because you have preserved the spirit of those original founding principles and you are their symbol. There were contradictions and omissions in those principles, and there may be in yours--but I am speaking of the essentials. There may be individuals in your history who did not live up to your highest standards--as there are in every institution--since no institutions and no social system can guarantee the automatic perfection of all its members; this depends on an individual's free will. I am speaking of your standards. You have preserved three qualities of character which were typical at the time of America's birth, but are virtually nonexistent today: earnestness--dedication--a sense of honor. Honor is self-esteem made visible in action.

You have chosen to risk your lives for the defense of this country. I will not insult you by saying that you are dedicated to selfless service--it is not a virtue in my morality. In my morality, the defense of one's country means that a man is personally unwilling to live as the conquered slave of any enemy, foreign or domestic. This is an enormous virtue. Some of you may not be consciously aware of it. I want to help you to realize it.

The army of a free country has a great responsibility: the right to use force, but not as an instrument of compulsion and brute conquest--as the armies of other countries have done in their histories--only as an instrument of a free nation's self-defense, which means: the defense of a man's individual rights. The principle of using force only in retaliation against those who initiate its use, is the principle of subordinating might to right. The highest integrity and sense of honor are required for such a task. No other army in the world has achieved it. You have.

West Point has given America a long line of heroes, known and unknown. You, this year's graduates, have a glorious tradition to carry on--which I admire profoundly, not because it is a tradition, but because it is glorious.

Since I came from a country guilty of the worst tyranny on earth, I am particularly able to appreciate the meaning, the greatness and the supreme value of that which you are defending. So, in my own name and in the name of many people who think as I do, I want to say, to all the men of West Point, past, present and future: Thank you.

JL's picture

Jason wants to change the subject again.

Here's the link to the original discussion Jason forgot to provide.

Roderick wrote an article that basically asked why so few blacks are Calvinists and why Calvinism has so little impact among Blacks. This is a very interesting and fair question.

Roderick provided a seed of the answer in his second paragraph. I started my search for information there and found the answer. I demonstrated why from history. The answer is not very flattering. Calvinists invented racism and it invented the race-based slave trade. (They did not invent slavery. They invented a specific form of slavery, race-based slavery.) It was one of the first acts of the original Dutch Calvinist state. The Dutch Calvinists and the Scottish Presbytereans then spread it all over the world. Of course, both Jason and Roderick found this offensive. But Roderick finally conceded that the history was true.

Jason however denies the relevance of history. As I am not a gnostic, God's test in Deut. 18:22 is enough for me. Roderick claimed and Jason still claims that Calvinism is good for blacks. History clearly says otherwise, as I documented in that discussion.

Ideas have consequences. If Jason doesn't like the consequences, then the underlying ideas are the problem. Jason is basically denying this principle.

For some reason Jason thinks that I should provide the specific doctrine of Calvinism that led to racism. Why? He feels that if I can't prove logically that some specific doctrine of Calvinism caused racism, then he can ignore history.

Since he's insisting, I think the whole Calvinist doctrine is inherently racist. More importantly, my wife and every black Christian I've personally asked since Roderick's article came out thinks so. (I've also learned that among my aquaintances, most white baptists call themselves Calvinists but most black baptists deny they are Calvinists.)

If Jason and Roderick don't share the racist views of their Calvinist forefathers, it is because they are the ones who have a corrupted form of Calvinism. If they want blacks to accept Calvinism, they need to determine what is different and demonstrate it to those people they are trying to convert to Calvinism.

Roderick understands this and has accepted it. I have no doubt he is still working on the problem. Jason is still in his Gordon Clark inspired, gnostic denial.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

KingNeb's picture

I asked my "blind" buddy Laroy (black, extremely well read and strong calvinist for a number of years, postmillennialist, even a Rushdoony fan)what he thought about JL's theory.

After the initial shock, then laughter, then an immediate question back to me asking, "have these guys read the Babylonian Talmud?" and quoting 2 lines from it off the top of his head...i had him re-enact the shock. Not as convincing as the original, but you get the picture.

http://biblestudy.meetup.com/197/photos/127860/1005192/

thereignofchrist.com

JL's picture

Jason,

I posted the evidence below. Calvin was the father of racism and slavery.

I'm sure you've read Calvin's work. I'm sure you knew that all along.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

JL's picture

So after all your tuff talk and posturing here, you've done nothing but continue to talk trash. I did what you "requested." You failed to do what you promised. Who's playing games?

JL

PS I have no reason to believe your friend knows anything about Calvinist history after Geneva or if he does, that he even considered it.

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

KingNeb's picture

I said days ago that i would ask a well-educated black calvinist about your theory and take a picture of his reaction and that is what i did. I'm simply following that up.

As far as calling you, you've said it yourself...it would be a waste of time.

I asked for your phone number so that i could call you and attempt to reconcile. Obviously, folks have been offended and i wanted to nip this in the bud.

Your last email told me that there is nothing to mend. That the problem is between you and Sam.

JL: "What is there that can be straightened out? "

"This whole thing should have nothing to do with you. You pull yourself into it every time you 1) defend Sam and his lies. 2) Repeat them. Do you understand? This whole issue is between Sam and I. You are the one who put yourself in the middle and continue to do so."

See, on the one hand you want to spread slander about me, calling me a liar and a name-caller to everyone, even emailing it to people (Roderick) but then on the other hand you say there are no problems between you and I.

So yes, i've "done nothing" because i realized at that point that i'm not dealing with an honest person and it would be a waste of time. There is no point in me calling you attempting to reconcile when you don't even acknowledge the problem between us.

Yet, you'll continue spreading slander about me, calling me a liar and a name-caller.

As far as "defending" Sam, i had already addressed the "lab coat" thing and you have not responded. Not only have you not responded, you have, since then, continued in calling me a liar and a name-caller.

yet, you expect me now to ignore all that and answer your questions about gen 2.4 or whatever.

I am more than willing to discuss Genesis with folks and even have my views challenged, but not with people tell me there are no problems between us and then turn right around and call me a "frequent" liar and name-caller.

I'm not going to simply brush that to the side. Sorry.

This will be my last post to you.

Here is my phone number ... 727.490.4892. Call me when you acknowledge the problem.

thereignofchrist.com

JL's picture

Jason,

When you defend and endorse Sam's lies and slanders, what am I supposed to do with you?

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

JL's picture

Gentlemen,

It might be fair for one of you to post an audio I did with a BLACK CALVINIST -- we even addressed why it was in the early days it seemed like there weren't many Black Calvinists. This guy isn't just some guy off the street. He is articulate & knows his history.
The link is here: http://thekingdomcome.com/black_calvinism_discussion

Interesting enough you can read about Lemuel Hayes (1753-1833) -- a black Calvinist who fought against slavery. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lemuel_Haynes)

The audio brings out that the reason many blacks weren't & perhaps still are not Calvinists, is because Calvinism/Reformed theology has always been the "sophisticated" branch of non-Roman Catholic Christianity & in the early days, blacks were not very well educated.

As more blacks begin to actually study the Bible & theology (instead of listening to people like T.D. Jakes), then you'll see more blacks embracing Reformed theology, be they hip-hoppers or Urkle types.

Actually it would be nice if you would just post all of my above comments since JL's original posting made it look like I was conceding that Calvinism invented racism --that is false, just as false as saying Socialism invented poverty. Socialism is bad because in theory it seeks equality yet in reality you will always have people who are harder workers, smarter thinkers, better managers -- Socialism doesn't allow for those differences & THAT is the reason it fails.

Thanks again,
Roderick

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

MiddleKnowledge's picture

Sort of caught in the act? The problem with blindness is that you just can't see what you can't see.

Wow,

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving

KingNeb's picture

JL,

I could follow your lead and simply call you a "liar" for misrepresenting me, but i won't. ( ;

1. My problem with your theory was not a denial that Calvinists can be racist. In fact, i saw a bit of it in a former church i was in. So all this talk about Jason denying "history" is nonsense. My problem was with your theory that Calvinists INVENTED racism.

And here is your theory, in a nutshell:

A. There were a bunch of calvinists over there
B. There was a bunch of racism over there

therefore

C. Calvinists invented racism

And now, you've said it point blank:

:I think the whole Calvinist doctrine is inherently racist:

Yet, I have asked what doctrines are resulting in this racism and you have replied:

1. I don't know
2. I don't have to know

The only "reason" you seem to give is because " my wife and every black Christian I've personally asked since Roderick's article came out thinks so."

So what? What kind of "reasoning" is that? Perhaps your black friends just don't like the idea of God predestinating people? And?

I can just as easily point you to an entire black calvinist revival that is taking place in the Hip Hop culture, of which i have been participating in for the past 5 years.

One of the leading christian hip-hop forums (ran by blacks with hundreds of members)is seeing blacks turn to calvinism like crazy. In fact, it has even gotten the attention of World magazine and Christianity Today.

See there, this is the problem with your empiricism. I can provide just as many examples as you can provide. Who's right?

You have blacks who say it's racist. I have a ton of black friends who would disagree. In fact, i'm going to run your theory by one (as black as they get, postmillennialist, partial-pret) tomorrow at our Tampa meeting just for kicks. I'll send you a picture of his reaction.

thereignofchrist.com

JL's picture

Jason,

Don't bother sending me anything. I know a whole lot of socialists who claim the poverty caused by socialism is just a coincidence. You are no different from them.

You will misrepresent the argument and the data, if you bother at all. And I run in an older and generally better educated crowd than your average hip-hopper. People who understand a bit of something called history.

Ask your friends first if they've heard of the Dutch Republic or the East India Company. Ask them if they can place Cromwell in the right century. Ask them what were the major religious groups that settled the US. I'm sure I'll be impressed.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

KingNeb's picture

"And I run in an older and generally better educated crowd than your average hip-hopper."

hmmm...so you're saying that the average Christian hip-hopper is dumb?

.....and you're complaining about racism... rrriiigghhhttt....

JL, you don't have an argument. It doesn't exist. It's all in your head.

You can't even tell me how or what it is about Calvinist doctrine that leads to racism. You just keep telling yourself it does.

And now you're implying that those who take issue with your so-called theory are dumb, not as well educated, and don't know their history.

...and calvinists have the problem? rrriiighhhtttt.

Your data doesn't prove Calvinism creates racism...pure and simple.

Try again.

thereignofchrist.com

KingNeb's picture

hit enter too soon...

so you is right? your friends or mine?

How about a more solid approach? How about actually demonstrating specifically what Calvinist doctrines necessarily lead to racism and then you might have something.

but simply pinning stuff on a map is a ridiculous argument.

thereignofchrist.com

JL's picture

Like I said. I know a whole lot of socialists who claim the poverty caused by socialism is just a coincidence. You are no different from them.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

Flakinde's picture

JL says:

"Ideas have consequences. If Jason doesn't like the consequences, then the underlying ideas are the problem. Jason is basically denying this principle."

How is this principle not fallacious (affirming the consequent)?

A&R

JL's picture

Alexander,

I posted the evidence below. Calvin himself was the father of racism and race-based slavery.

Watch your back around those Calvinists who deny it.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

JL's picture

Alexander,

The historical link is not fallacious. It is well documented.

History has demonstrated a lot of things that, to some people, don't logically follow. Socialism has proven to be evil in practice everywhere it has been tried. Likewise, Calvinism has proven to be evil in practice everywhere it has been tried. I do not want anyone trying either on me.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

Flakinde's picture

JL,

My question was not if there was a link between Calvinism and racism, which may or may not be true. I do question, though, whether arguments like the one you seem to be trying to make are valid:

if p, then q
q
therefore p

p= Calvinism is racist
q= Finding historical links between the two

Any time this type of argumentation is used, it is considered fallacious. I am wondering why your usage is not.

Blessed,

Alexander Rodríguez

JL's picture

Alexander,

This is not logic. This is 100% statistical correlation. I do not know if racism causes Calvinism, if Calvinism causes racism, or if they are caused by a common factor.

Because of my very limited imagination, I can only imagine one direction for causality.

If you believe they are caused by a common factor or that racism causes Calvinism, then spill it.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

KingNeb's picture

"This is not logic"

Finally something we agree on.

thereignofchrist.com

Barry's picture

we are all in this together

Sam's picture

I have been reading PM literature for over 15 years now. I have quite a collection of material. I don't think that what is being said in here entirely grasps the point of Deconstruction. Let me point this out clearly, because some of the aspects of Decon. was taught by Gordon Clark (Presuppositionalism). He was one of the only men in the forties and fifties analyzing Wittgenstein and Shopenhauer (and Nietschze). In fact, his work was the reason why I took a strong interest in philosophy in general.

Now, on one hand, some on Pl. Pret. affirm Deconstruction as a legitimate means of criticizing Truth (I use the term "criticize" in an academic sense). Yet, these same people affirm science as able to establish absolute-true propositions. Virgil has said this to me explicitly. But, Derrida is more in line with Thomas Kuhn on the philosophy of science. I submitted an article in here by Gary Crampton that showed, very clearly, that science, since it is empirical, can never, ever demonstrate Truth. In that article, basically, the view of Thomas Kuhn on the nature of science was affirmed (the article is here: http://www.trinityfoundation.org/journal.php?id=163). I say this to quote from John D. Caputo, Derrida's able critic and dear friend. Caputo is a Deconstructionist. Listen to him: "So, if deconstruction would have interesting and constructive things to say about science [it would be] very much in the spirit of Kuhnian and post-Kuhnian philosophers of science" (Deconstruction in a Nutshell, 74). Further, "a deconstructivist approach to natural science would maintain that the "laws" of science are always destructible (revisable) just in virtue of an science to come, one that is presently unforeseeable" (73). These "laws" should not be taken "dogmatically" (73). Amen and amen. That's what I have been saying all along in here. Now, the question. For someone who considers themself PM on one hand, yet affirm that science can "discover" absolute truth on the other, how does that square? Second, how is my apporach to science (Kuhnian) ridiculed as "an attack on science and knowledge" as Virgil has written? After all, Virgil, I am just following Derrida here...

Sam Frost
www.thereignofchrist.com

Virgil's picture

I don't think that what is being said in here entirely grasps the point of Deconstruction.

Actually I would be the first to agree with you here Sam - people still argue today over the various aspects of deconstruction, but I will not sweat over that. I simply presented its benefits...that was my intention.

Now, on one hand, some on Pl. Pret. affirm Deconstruction as a legitimate means of criticizing Truth (I use the term "criticize" in an academic sense). Yet, these same people affirm science as able to establish absolute-true propositions. Virgil has said this to me explicitly.

I am not sure deconstruction is a legitimate means to critique all truth, which is why I only used it in conjunction with Eric Rauch's BIBLICAL examples. Derrida's deconstruction is largely based on literary aspects of a text and/or language, so one would be hard pressed to apply it to science or empiricism - this is why i have no problem with being both a scientist/engineer and see value in postmodernism as well.

If someone out there has any work on deconstruction and science, I would love to take a look at it.

These "laws" should not be taken "dogmatically" (73). Amen and amen. That's what I have been saying all along in here.

This is the first time I hear you say this in the context of deconstruction; you should have made it more clear before, because to me (and I am sure to other scientists), you sound pretty crazy when telling me that 1+1 is not 2. Now I do understand you better...thanks for clarifying! :)

Second, how is my apporach to science (Kuhnian) ridiculed as "an attack on science and knowledge" as Virgil has written? After all, Virgil, I am just following Derrida here...

You should consider writing a lengthier response dealing specifically with this so I can see where you are coming; like I said, I would have a hard time bringing Nietzsche and Derrida into the chemistry or math lab, but as always, I am open minded to hear you.

Also, please give me some recommendations on Gordon Clark's work that I can pickup and educate myself on his Presuppositionalism.

And finally, I hope you see that I am making an effort here to recognize the merits of modern philosophy Sam (which are real merits) - the reason I did not answer your first comments was because I am tired of dealing with sarcasm and jabs here. You know me very well, and you know better than implying that I am a relativist, subscribe to no absolutes or no truth.

But you also know that I see merits in Christian postmodernism. You don't, and that troubles me because I know you to be a discerning guy that can find value in places I sometimes cannot.

KingNeb's picture

thereignofchrist.com

Flakinde's picture

"Eric is in his own right to question postmodernism, but he is appealing to modernism in order to do so. The irony of using a flawed system to analyze another flawed system is rich, and the analysis gives us little answers and does not compel me to go back to a modern way of thinking or a modern methodology[...]"

Virgil,

I would submit that what is truly ironic is that you are analyzing both Eric's thoughts and postmodern thinking by using what you call the "modern" methodology, after all. You just can't escape it... yet what you end up doing is refusing to embrace the infinite regress that you have created and is right in front of you, whether you want to ignore it or not.

Some examples:

"If truth demands absolute certainty, then Christianity has much bigger problems to deal with than postmodernism. When my children ask me various questions about God, I find myself answering “I do not know” quite often. In the modern eyes that apparently makes me a bad father!"

Yet "I don't know" is quite a certain proposition. In other words, you are claiming that it is quite certain that you don't know what you're being asked. From the postmodern mindset, you would also demonize the certainty of affirming you don't know, in favor of something "mysterious" like "it might be true that I don't know, but maybe I do know". Now that would be truly refusing to ascertain... something the postmodern claims to do, yet never does successfully.

Another:

"Yet it is only because of the insistence of modernism that the Church continues to offer theological and impersonal solutions to deep spiritual problems experienced by the contemporary generations. Modern Christianity has marketed itself as the solution to all mysteries and problems, when in fact it has very few practical answers to offer, and many ideological solutions available."

Is it absolutely certain that the insistence of modernism causes the Church to offer impersonal solutions? Is it absolutely certain that modern Christianity has marketed itself as a solution? Is it absolutely certain that modern Christianity has very few practical answers? If these are not certainties, then what do these sentences mean, and how do they prove your point? Moreover, how does expressing propositions in this way not contradict everything you are trying to say?

Yet another (as if it were necessary):

"As I wrote before, mysteries seem to be the greatest motivator for humans to do and accomplish great things: Why? Why climb the Everest? Why land on the Moon? Why explore the Unknown, whatever it may be? Because we can! Because God apparently created us with a spirit willing to explore the mysterious, learn from it and become better people and better Christians in the process."

Did scientists ascertain anything after climbing the Everest or landing on the Moon? If so, wouldn't you condemn that too? Or would you say the experience of climbing or landing was the only worthwhile aspect?

Also, how does one know he has "explored the mysterious"? Maybe it should remain a mystery if one has ever explored the mysterious or not? Or maybe it is a mystery that it is a mystery that there either is a mystery or there is not (and right into infinite regress)?

Again, I believe you are doing exactly what you are crying out against, and this proves that postmodern (or postmodernism, no difference when analyzing its methodology) is just a superficial facade that describes an attitude against a methodology, not a methodology itself.

Another entirely different issue has to do with your idea of interpretation, which largely has to do with your notion of God's sovereignty (with which I am sure we would disagree), yet you don't seem to acknowledge this more fundamental aspect of your own interpretation of what "interpretation" means.

I explain further... When you say:

"In essence Owen is subscribing to a very non-traditional apologetic, in that the foundation proposition of Christianity, namely that Christ was crucified, needs in itself to be interpreted in order to become a reality; i.e. there is a difference between receiving doctrine “notionally” and receiving doctrine “really.”"

Many Christians would acknowledge the difference between receiving notionally and knowing really. However, we would define "really" as that which corresponds with the Mind of God, and that which only He is able to impart to others (Isaiah 40:28), not the other way around.

So it's not that we can interpret a proposition for it to become truth, it's that God's Spirit guides man to truth (John 16:13; 1 John 5:6). Otherwise, all propositions are only known notionally (1 John 4:6). What keeps us humble is not acknowledging the simple fact that we all have different interpretations (which is a very superficial observation), but rather that God is in control of our thoughts and our realities (or is He not powerful enough to do this?), and in recognizing this we submit to Him for all understanding.

Blessed in His rest,

Alexander Rodríguez

Kyle Peterson's picture

From the postmodern mindset, you would also demonize the certainty of affirming you don't know, in favor of something "mysterious" like "it might be true that I don't know, but maybe I do know". Now that would be truly refusing to ascertain... something the postmodern claims to do, yet never does successfully.

This seems to be a common (mis)assumption towards Postmodernism - the fact that one can't actually know anything for certain. Critics love to use this strawman to delegitimize and attempt to paint PMists as indecisive liberals.

Yes, Alex, if I see you bite your lip and yelp I'll believe you that it hurts (you). However I can't possibly understand how much it hurts, or what it feels like until I bite my own lip.

Some, maybe most- would say I'm stupid to bite my own lip and not trust that your experience would be the same as mine.

Likewise, should I simply accept what others have discovered about Eschatology, or should I go on a journey/study to come to my own conclusions? What say you?

JL's picture

Kyle,

I just bit my lip. Blood all over the place. I didn't feel a thing. What gives?

Here's my problem. Postmodernism is anti-empiricism. Your lip-biting experiment is empiricism.

For those who are into Clarkian Dogmatics (not those who pretend to be), that leaves irrationalism or dogmatism. (The binary Clarkians call dogmatism presuppositionalism and effectively deny irrationalism.) Post-modernism certainly denies dogmatism. So why isn't it irrational?

JL

PS. Pain is good. Philosophizing about pain and lip biting shortly after a trip to the dentist is not.

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

KingNeb's picture

I'm still waiting for the explanation of how "Clarkian Dogmatics" is a "form of gnosticism".

'Name calling, but no substance'

thereignofchrist.com

JL's picture

Jason,

Given your frequent name calling in the name of Clark, I think I'll let you wait. I've answered it several times over the last several years but you don't have ears to hear. Your separation of everything into what's between those deaf ears which you claim corresponds to Scripture vs. everything outside which you call empiricism makes it impossible for you to understand. But it will all be explained fully in due time. We've got 50 pages devoted to it in the new book.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

KingNeb's picture

JL,

Is this going to be a hit and run? Please point out to me where i have offended you with "frequent name calling".

Tim, do you know what JL is referring to? Perhaps you can help.

Please provide the sources and i will look over them.

Also, please point me to anything you have written demonstrating how clarkian presupp. is a "form of gnosticism." If Clark and/or myself have erred, i would like to be shown.

thereignofchrist.com

JL's picture

Jason,

PP does not have an effective search feature. Your comments on Gary DeMar's, A Prophetic Shift on the Horizon, demonstrate you endorse Sam's lies and name calling. So there's no need to go any further back.

You claimed to have read nothing on young-earth creationism and therefore can not be a follower of Ellen G. White on the subject. The pedigree has been given more than once on PP. Two American Vision articles have been linked since this summer which expressly claim that Henry Morris and John Whitcomb are responsible for modern young-earth creationism. You never disputed those claims in those articles. Everyone in the modern evangelical church gets their views either directly or indirectly from Morris. Morris claimed that he got his views from the 7th-Day Adventist George McCready Price. Price claimed he got them from White. White claimed she got them from her visions.

Bernard Ramm's book (1954) has no mention of young-earth creationism. He discusses theistic evolution, day-age, something that looks like framework, analogic, and gap-theory views of creation, but no young-earth.

Gary North claims that at the time of the Scopes trial, Price was the only young-earth creationist of note.

The only person you can find who's even close to being a young earth creationist is Calvin who applied the "generations" of Gen. 2:4 to Gen. 1. If those days were generations, then how were they 24 hours long?

Gnosticism has two components. Special knowledge and dualism. Clarkian presuppositionalism, as you and Sam continuously define it and use it, is dualistic. You can't know anything about the physical world unless God has expressly told it to us. What has God told us? You and Sam have made claims. You then deny that these claims can be tested. That is special knowledge.

That is also in defiance of Scripture itself, which says to "test everything." It is in defiance of the Law which tells us to test and how to test.

I am a presuppositionalist. As God commands, I test those presuppositions by every means possible. By rationalism and the law of non-contradiction. By empiricism. By the legal-historical method. I'm always testing. If they don't hold, I retest, modify my presuppositions, and test some more.

You, Sam, and Clark only allow the first method of testing. You deny the other two. Yet, anyone who disagrees with you on the interpretation of Scripture you call an empiricist. That is, those who work purely on the basis of the first method of testing, yet disagree with you, you falsely smear. You can't imagine an interpretation that disagrees with your own. What is between your ears is, in your mind, equivalent to God's word. Again, special knowledge.

You've claimed that even if the temple were still standing, you'd be a preterist. Not me. It would either prove that Jesus was a false prophet or that futurism is true. If what a prophet says does not come true, do not be afraid of him. You've explicitly said that history is of no consequence. All that matters is your special knowledge.

I can't think of anything more gnostic than that.

Take care.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

KingNeb's picture

I had an interesting epiphany today…one of those Gnostic moments. I’ve been racking my brain for the past two days trying to remember where and when I have chatted with JL and what I might have said that has ticked him off. Actively posting on a number of websites causes me to forget at times what I said to who and when. I read his latest here, jumped in the van to go get some lunch and then it hit me halfway to Arby’s. I faintly remembered chatting with JL on Roderick’s site about racism and Calvinism. Sure enough, I went over there, searched, and there it was. After going back and reading that short exchange from August of 2006, it occurred to me why JL’s latest post triggered off memories of that post – it’s the same old baloney.

JL tried to argue that Calvinists invented racism!!

JL: “No non-Calvinists advocated true racism before the Calvinists developed it.”

It became immediately apparent to me that JL did (does) not understand Calvinism to make such a statement, so I asked him to define it.

JL: “It is not for me to define. It is common knowledge that the Netherlands broke from Spain and formed a Calvinist state in 1579. The English Seperatists moved there, then later moved back to England and some boarded the Mayflower to New England. History records all of these people along with the Scottish Presbytereans who settled Virginia as being Calvinist. They were racist. They invented racism and spread it wherever they ruled. If you wish to deny they were Calvinists, Judges 16:10 condemns you as a fool. It would be far more productive for you to study the issue and find why 16th century Calvinism led quickly to the invention of racism instead of trying to deny the obvious connection.”

When I responded that Calvinism, when properly understood, actually offers a solution to racism, JL responded:

JL: “You claim that Sovereign Grace is the only answer to racism. Prove it. First you have to determine what doctrines drove 16th century Calvinism to racism. (I don't know which doctrines. I only know that it's the same people involved in both issues.) “

See what happened? JL’s whole argument was that since racism existed only in the areas where Calvinism existed, Calvinist must have invented racism. Not that there have been racist calvinists, mind you (that I don’t deny) but that Calvinists INVENTED RACISM. He has no idea why or what doctrines would have done it, he just knows they did it. Furthermore, he did not even want to explore which doctrines supposedly were responsible

Instead, he responded:

JL: “I have yet to see anybody produce anything in an attempt to refute my thesis. All you've done is complain that you don't like it. The correlation is obvious and well demonstrated to anybody who has studied the issue.”

It is the same ridiculous type of reasoning we see here. So and so is linked to so and so, that so and so was linked to so and so, and that so and so was linked to so and so; therefore, Jason is a follower of Ellen G White.

Well, I like Gordon Clark too, so I guess now that not only makes me a Gnostic, but a racist as well, considering that Clark was linked to Bob and Bob was linked to Boob and Boob was linked to Klein, and Klein was Calvin’s brother-in-law’s step uncle’s former roommate.

At any rate, I responded there with:

Jason: “Ding, ding, ding...there you go. And that's why you refuse to define Calvinism. JL, enroll in a logic class. I'm being very serious here. I'm not saying that just to be mean or whatever. Seriously, take the time to study logic...study fallacies. Your posts are full of them. They are not even worth responding to anymore.”

It’s all starting to make sense now. This is why JL shot off at me in a thread completely unrelated to him:

JL: “Neb, You aren't very good at logic are you?”
It’s all becoming clearer, in a “special knowledge” sort of way.

__________

Well, now that I remember who you are, I’m tempted to not bother with this any further, but I’ll proceed seeing that you’re now charging me with lying, Gnosticism, and name calling…to add on to my foolish denial of Calvinists creating racism.
JL: “PP does not have an effective search feature. Your comments on Gary DeMar's, A Prophetic Shift on the Horizon, demonstrate you endorse Sam's lies and name calling. So there's no need to go any further back.”

Perhaps the real reason you won’t go “further back” is because you don’t find anything further back, except maybe our little go around with the “calvinists invented racism” bit.

As far as name calling from Sam goes, I’ve read his posts three times now and the only thing I see even remotely close to “name-calling” was the reference to “lab coats”.

Sam: “Who would want an archaic book that no one can interpret correctly over and against the consensus of men in lab coats?”

I believe this hardly qualifies as name-calling. It is fairly easy to see what Sam is doing here. He is making fun of the idea of exalting the scientist’s words (as many do) over and against that ole’ “archaic” word of God, i.e. “our scientific research has made us wiser than God.”
And the fact is JL, many scientists do this very thing. Now, whether or not you do is another matter, but the “lab coat” thing was not an insult to ANY and ALL scientists. This was directed towards a certain kind of scientist. The only scientists who should have been offended are the ones guilty of exalting their wisdom over God’s. There was certainly nothing in Sam’s post directed towards you specifically.

You, however, got very direct with Sam:

“You have no idea what a scientist does.”

“You call yourself a philosopher. What's that? A thinker? I think for a living. That is, I get paid to think. Last I heard, you were unemployed.”

“You sit in your ivory tower and pontificate about how the world works and how Scripture works”

“The early church had a name for people who refused to get their hands dirty, for people who had knowledge that couldn't be tested. Gnostic.”

Hmmm…let’s weigh this out….”lab coats” used in attempt to put scientists in their place who exalt their word over God (doesn’t apply to all scientists) versus “unemployed”, “ivory tower”, and “gnostic” made directly to Sam….

There is hardly a comparison between the two.

As far as “lies” go, I can’t really take you serious here either. You simply asserted that Sam’s whole post was a “lie” without any substance and then asserted that “A millions of years old earth came from Scripture.”

Is this the same guy promoting a book that that “avoided strong conclusions”, and simply makes “an investigation, not a dogmatic conclusion”?! (Preface to the Second Edition)

Who here is really throwing a hissy fit because their interpretation of Scripture is being challenged? How in the world do you get “a million” years out of Genesis? I’ve seen no proof of this whatsoever…not even close.

JL: “You claimed to have read nothing on young-earth creationism and therefore can not be a follower of Ellen G. White on the subject. The pedigree has been given more than once on PP. Two American Vision articles have been linked since this summer which expressly claim that Henry Morris and John Whitcomb are responsible for modern young-earth creationism. You never disputed those claims in those articles. Everyone in the modern evangelical church gets their views either directly or indirectly from Morris. Morris claimed that he got his views from the 7th-Day Adventist George McCready Price. Price claimed he got them from White. White claimed she got them from her visions.”

I’m not sure what two articles you are referring to. I’m assuming the one on the 18th is one. However JL, if you take a look at the comments, (at least the ones following the 18th article) I never joined the conversation. In fact, very few did. Soooo, let me get this straight. Since I did not post anything on that page, it can be assumed that I’m pro Morris now? This is ridiculous. And here again we see your so and so linkage argument again.

Ok JL, you got me…I’m secretly in love with Ellen White and I’m a racist too.

I would ask you how you are able to trace what I believe about creation back to my lover Ellen, but seeing that you didn’t feel that was necessary with the Calvinism and racism bit, then it would probably be a waste of time in asking. In fact, as we saw with that, you’re not even really interested in what I believe. All that you really care about is connecting racism with calvinists and young earthers with the White cult.

JL: “Bernard Ramm's book (1954) has no mention of young-earth creationism. He discusses theistic evolution, day-age, something that looks like framework, analogic, and gap-theory views of creation, but no young-earth….Gary North claims that at the time of the Scopes trial, Price was the only young-earth creationist of note..”

Not sure what that has to do with me. Moving on…
JL: “The only person you can find who's even close to being a young earth creationist is Calvin who applied the "generations" of Gen. 2:4 to Gen. 1. If those days were generations, then how were they 24 hours long?”

What does “close” to being a young earther mean? Unless am I completely misreading Calvin and/or have a corrupted translation, Calvin made it quite plain:

“We must not be moved by the profane jeer, that it is strange how it did not sooner occur to the Deity to create the heavens and the earth, instead of idly allowing an infinite period to pass away, during which thousands of generations might have existed, while the present world is drawing to a close before it has completed its six thousandth year.”

“Profane men, I admit, in the matter of predestination abruptly seize upon something to carp, rail, bark, or scoff at. But if their shamelessness deters us, we shall have to keep secret the chief doctrines of the faith, almost none of which they or their like leave untouched by blasphemy. An obstinate person would be no less insolently puffed up on hearing that within the essence of God there are three Persons than if he were told that God foresaw what would happen to man when He created him. And they will not refrain from guffaws when they are informed that but little more than five thousand years have passed since the creation of the universe, for they ask why God's power was idle or asleep for so long.”

It don’t get “younger” than that. So much for the Ellen G White, mother of young earth, theory.

Furthermore, what does your question have to do with disproving the racist as a young earther? Whatever Calvin did with Gen. 2:4 is besides the point…point is, here is one (of many) that clearly held to a young earth prior to White. Case closed.

JL: “Gnosticism has two components. Special knowledge and dualism. Clarkian presuppositionalism, as you and Sam continuously define it and use it, is dualistic. You can't know anything about the physical world unless God has expressly told it to us. What has God told us? You and Sam have made claims. You then deny that these claims can be tested. That is special knowledge.”

I have no idea what you are talking about. JL, paste for me an example of a “claim” I have made.

JL: “I am a presuppositionalist. As God commands, I test those presuppositions by every means possible. By rationalism and the law of non-contradiction. By empiricism. By the legal-historical method. I'm always testing. If they don't hold, I retest, modify my presuppositions, and test some more.

You, Sam, and Clark only allow the first method of testing. You deny the other two. Yet, anyone who disagrees with you on the interpretation of Scripture you call an empiricist. That is, those who work purely on the basis of the first method of testing, yet disagree with you, you falsely smear. You can't imagine an interpretation that disagrees with your own. What is between your ears is, in your mind, equivalent to God's word. Again, special knowledge.”

1.) I don’t disagree you are a presuppositionalist. Everyone is. The question is not whether we are or not, but “what do we presuppose?” I presuppose the Bible to be the Word of God and from that axiom I deduce my worldview. Yikes!...my bad.

2.) JL, how do you “test” by “empiricism” that Cain killed Abel?

3.) Speaking of “lies”, have you been involved with every conversation that I have had with people I disagree with? You must have to know that I call them all empiricists. Furthermore, I can imagine and have imagined my interpretation as being wrong. Uhhh, hello…I USED to be a futurist.

4.) JL, what “special knowledge” do you have that is making you INSIST that the earth is millions of years old?

5.) I’m curious, does “unemployed”, “fool”, and mocking a man in his “ivory tower” qualify as “smear”? It’s interesting how you get when people express disagreement with your dogmatic stance on your millions of years old earth.

6.) As soon as you can demonstrate to me how empiricism furnishes truth, then I’ll listen. Until then, you’re merely begging the question.

JL: “You've claimed that even if the temple were still standing, you'd be a preterist. Not me. It would either prove that Jesus was a false prophet or that futurism is true. If what a prophet says does not come true, do not be afraid of him. You've explicitly said that history is of no consequence. All that matters is your special knowledge. I can't think of anything more gnostic than that.”

Actually, what I said was:

“But the Temple isn't still standing and the reason it is not is obvious from the text. God doesn't need Josephus to validate His Word.”
In other words, it’s a nutty question to begin with. JL, talking about philosophizing up in the tower…if you want to live in “hypothetical” land, then go ahead but there is no “if”.

Furthermore, your insistence on testing God raises even further problems.

How do you account for the faith of every saint who died before ad70? – or – to ask it another way…how was David supposed to test Jesus?

Take any old testament prophet who believed in the coming Messiah…at least 400 years prior to Jesus even showing up on the scene…explain to me how David was suppose to “empirically” and “legal-historically” test Jesus?

I about hit the floor when you said this earlier:

“Scripture demands that we search out these witnesses, interrogate them, and make reasonable conclusions from what they say.”

JL, how did David “test” Jesus words and prophecies from the 1st century?

Maybe if we search, we’ll find him and can ask. Let me know when you’ve found David…maybe we can do a podcast together.

thereignofchrist.com

JL's picture

Jason,

Go back and read Sam's first paragraph. It is false. It is a lie. And it is what started the current row.

You supported it. You are supporting and spreading Sam's lie. You are either a liar, because you are knowingly agreeing to and spreading that lie. Or you are a fool, Judges 16, and Sam is making a fool of you.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

Flakinde's picture

JL,

I don't know the history of this conversation, so sorry if I'm butting in . . .

I am not too (if at all) opposed to what you say here:

"I am a presuppositionalist. As God commands, I test those presuppositions by every means possible. By rationalism and the law of non-contradiction. By empiricism. By the legal-historical method. I'm always testing. If they don't hold, I retest, modify my presuppositions, and test some more."

I would only make one clarification, and it's that I see a distinction between the methods of testing you describe, and the actual imparting of truth. That is, I would affirm that we are imparted truth, even through using those methods, as much as God wishes to impart truth. The methods themselves are not useless, yet they aren't autonomous from God's will for them to work either.

I like Cheung's analogy, in which he posits that if I eat lettuce, it itself has no more (ultimately) inherent qualities to provide me with nourishment than if I ate a newspaper page. God, who sustains all things, and whose power is eternally active, causes the lettuce to be nourishing to my body. In the same way, He causes those methods to work to impart knowledge to my mind.

The "test all things" Scriptures do nothing against this idea, because (unless I am mistaken, and if so, please correct me) those Scriptures take for granted that the audience that will do the testing, would also be those conforming to God's mind, His people.

I do believe history is of consequence, yet I would question the methods of historical research used, and not take anything for granted. I personally am very skeptical towards many supposedly historical accounts.

Hope this is of value, blessed,

Alexander Rodríguez

JL's picture

Alexander,

I'm not concerned with the issue of the proper interpretation of history. I'm concerned with the Bible's own test of a prophet. Deut. 18:22.

If the event does not happen, then the prophet is a false prophet.

I've allowed a second explanation for those of us reading the stuff today. We don't understand what the prophet promised. We don't understand the language. We don't understand the culture. We do our best to try to interpret what the phrophet actually said.

I read a piece of Scripture and have an interpretation. Jason and Sam have a different interpretation. If I express my intrepretation, they call me names and bear false witness against my motives because I disagree with them.

They are unable to allow the possibility that I, in good faith, have merely misinterpreted Scripture, nor will they allow the possibility that they have misintepreted Scripture. They consider their interpretations of Scripture to be Scripture. It is no different from the gnostic's special knowledge.

If I go out of Scripture, as Deut. 18:22 demands, to test an interpretation, they call me more names and bear further false witness against me. I only interact with these two on PP, so there are plenty of witnesses of this.

They do all this in the name of Gordon Clark. I will not be judged by Clark. I will not be judged by them. Sam libeled me and mocked me on another thread and I responded. Jason decided to bring that over here. I'd be quite happy to be done with the two of them, but they won't have it.

Scripture interacts with history. Scripture demands itself to be tested by history. Their separation of Scripture from history is the same as the gnostic separation of the spiritual from the physical.

Special knowledge plus dualism equals gnosticism. They started it with name calling, libel, and mockery. I've demonstrated their error in handling Scripture. I don't expect them to thank me for it.

Hope that clarifies.

Blessings

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

KingNeb's picture

JL: “I'm not concerned with the issue of the proper interpretation of history. I'm concerned with the Bible's own test of a prophet. Deut. 18:22.

If the event does not happen, then the prophet is a false prophet.”

JL, please explain how Isaiah was to know that Christ was a true prophet? How did Isaiah test the claims Jesus made in the first century? How could Isaiah even be confident that there would even be a Jesus?

JL: “I read a piece of Scripture and have an interpretation. Jason and Sam have a different interpretation. If I express my intrepretation, they call me names and bear false witness against my motives because I disagree with them.”

This is false. I’ve addressed this in the other post. “Lab coats” is hardly name-calling and it certainly was not directed towards JL. It was directed towards scientists who exalt their words over God's. No reason why that should have offended you unless the shoe fits.

Furthermore, you have made it emphatically clear that the Bible teaches that the earth is millions of years old. I disagree and now, all of a sudden, I’m a follower of Ellen G White. And I’m probably a racist too, seeing that Calvinists invented racism.

JL: “They are unable to allow the possibility that I, in good faith, have merely misinterpreted Scripture, nor will they allow the possibility that they have misintepreted Scripture. They consider their interpretations of Scripture to be Scripture. It is no different from the gnostic's special knowledge.”

JL, does the Bible teach that the earth is millions of years old or not? And have you not emphatically stated that my theory of knowledge is not Scriptural?

Where do you lay out the possibility that I, in good faith, have misunderstood the Bible? Not only have you not done this, but now I’m a “Gnostic”.

I have never called you “unemployed”, wasting away in the “ivory tower”, and a “Gnostic”.

JL: If I go out of Scripture, as Deut. 18:22 demands, to test an interpretation, they call me more names and bear further false witness against me. I only interact with these two on PP, so there are plenty of witnesses of this.

Go ahead JL, paste it for me. Paste where I have called you a name.

JL: “Scripture interacts with history. Scripture demands itself to be tested by history. Their separation of Scripture from history is the same as the gnostic separation of the spiritual from the physical.”

This is most absurd. It’s not ok for me to supposedly misrepresent you, but your representation of me is certain, isn’t it? Saying that the writings of a historian do not validate the Bible is a FAR CRY from saying that Scripture is separate from history.

You clearly have no understanding of how i view history.

JL: “Special knowledge plus dualism equals gnosticism. They started it with name calling, libel, and mockery. I've demonstrated their error in handling Scripture. I don't expect them to thank me for it.”

You have demonstrated nothing. JL, simply saying “you’re wrong” hardly qualifies as proof. Show me one example of where you have demonstrated an error in the way I handle Scripture. Just one.

thereignofchrist.com

KingNeb's picture

and one last thing JL:

There is a huge difference between what the Bereans did and what you're suggesting.

The Bereans took the words of Paul and laid them side by side with the SCRIPTURE, not some outside source.

They "they received the word with all eagerness, examining the Scriptures daily to see if these things were so."

Not Yockbahn's History of the Flood.

thereignofchrist.com

Kyle Peterson's picture

This begs the question: In 60AD, what were the Jews of the diaspora using as scripture?

KingNeb's picture

Kyle,

"This" referring to what? I don't understand your question.

thereignofchrist.com

Kyle Peterson's picture

You were making a comparison which referenced the Bereans comparing Paul's words to scripture as opposed to external sources. At that point in history, what did scripture consist of?

Virgil's picture

PP does not have an effective search feature.

I agree - I am working on redoing the search algorithm from scratch and adding the ability to search inside comments, by username and in the forums/blogs. There is a lot of work to do...

KingNeb's picture

JL,

I don't doubt that i've called people names, but name-calling is not evil, per se. So if you feel that i have sinned, then please point those out to me and i will look it over.

Please point me to these accounts...do you have links, quotes, etc. or is this just slander?

You should be able to provide these considering I do it "frequent".

Secondly, you say, "I've answered it several times over the last several years but you don't have ears to hear. "

Ok then, please point it out to me. JL, are you really interested in teaching people or are you just interested in strutting yourself around?

Unless you have been posing as an atheist or something, i haven't had hardly any conversation with you, especially nothing in depth concerning Clark. So i have no idea what you are referring to when you say you've "answered it several times over the last several years".

If you're referring to posts on this site, then I am not sure which ones. This is about as active as i have been on this site in a long time.

Sooo, where are they...show me where you've demonstrated that clarkian presupp. is a form of gnosticism.

If don't provide me with any links, etc., then i'll just assume you have none.

thereignofchrist.com

MiddleKnowledge's picture

That's before final editing,

Tim Martin
www.truthinliving.org

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