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Water on Mars

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By Virgil - Posted on 21 June 2008

The existence of ice on Mars was confirmed today by NASA scientists, the first time frozen water has been sampled on another planet. Water in liquid form is an essential ingredient for life. Whitish, dice-sized chunks, which were dug from the rocky red soil and warmed in the sun, vanished four days after the National Aeronautics and Space Administration's Phoenix probe dug them up June 15. They confirm what NASA satellites have suggested for years: Frozen water exists several centimeters beneath Mars's surface. Scientists believe ice exists on planets including Pluto, though Phoenix is the first probe to confirm it on the ground. The survey is part of NASA's theme in Mars exploration: follow the water.

``We've hit what we're looking for,'' said Mark Lemmon, an atmospheric scientist at Texas A&M University in College Station and co-investigator on the NASA project. ``The job now is to find out what's mixed in with the ice.'' He spoke at a press conference in Tucson, Arizona.

The Phoenix's robotic arm also hit a hard surface yesterday while digging in a different spot, raising scientists' hopes that they might uncover a larger ice layer to sample, NASA said.

``When I look over this flat plain of rock and dirt, it's amazing what we're looking at,'' said principal investigator Peter Smith of the University of Arizona in Tucson, which is co- managing the project. ``If you got a giant broom and swept if off, it's a big ice sheet.''

Ice Below Surface?

Click to read the entire article

UncleJesse's picture

Some say institutional religion will crumble if alien life is found.

Starlight's picture

Quote … “The Vatican's official newspaper has endorsed the possibility that the universe could contain intelligent life beyond Earth, while insisting that aliens would be "our brothers" and "children of God" as much as human beings are.”

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/popes-astronomer-insists-...

We need to check in with Parker on this<;-)

Norm
PS.Like the old saying goes "all dogs go to heaven"

mazuur's picture

Norm,

Why do we need Parker's opinion? The Pope dictates his belief, therefore, what the Pope says is what Parker believes. This is the hole he has dug himself into. That is why Parker can't accept Preterism

-Rich

-Rich

Starlight's picture

Rich,

That was of course tongue in cheek as was the quip about dogs. I guess we could consider them (dogs)our brothers also according to the Catholics. LOL

Norm

davo's picture

Starlight: Like the old saying goes "all dogs go to heaven"

So, I'll see you there then Norm... ;)

davo

Starlight's picture

Davo,

Actually I was thinking of you when I wrote that.

Talk about Universe_aliensim. LOL

Starlight

davo's picture

haha lol :)

Virgil's picture

Christianity was never meant to be "institution" so in that sense I am rooting for alien life..hehe.

The question for me is not as much about religion as it is "where is/did the water on Mars coming from?"

UncleJesse's picture

Maybe 5-6 thousand years ago Mars had an atmosphere, and it rained. LOL Who knows!
According to Rob Bell, even alien life is spiritual.

Virgil's picture

Where did Rob Bell say that?

mazuur's picture

I don't see what the big deal is. So there is water on Mars. There's dirt too. Not to mention all kinds of other elements in the atmosphere.

"Water in liquid form is an essential ingredient for life."

That is the really funny statement. This is why they think finding water on Mars is so important. An "essential ingredient" for life (to begin, not just to survive). Oh, brother. Says who? Life on earth for sure needs water, but it also needs other things too.

What about the "goo" that life supposedly started in on earth? Have they found the presence of it? What about proteins? What about amino-acids? What about ...

Water and dirt makes one thing....mud.

That entire statement rest on the assumption that life began in the manner they suppose according to their man made paradigm (evolution). Problem is, they have never proved (even in a control science lab with man's intervention through experiment) it to be so.

-Rich

-Rich

Virgil's picture

Well, what IF there is life found on Mars? One comment above is making a great point - how will that impact the conversation on creation?

Of course, I imagine that if life will be found on Mars, the response will be that we brought it there. Although all the equipment sent off-world is baked in an oven at high temperatures in order to kill any remaining life forms, the possibility remains that we took life to Mars.

mazuur's picture

Virgil,

"how will that impact the conversation on creation?"

I'm sure it will be interesting. Especially for the YEC types. heh heh heh

-Rich

-Rich

Virgil's picture

Exactly!!

Barry's picture

If we do not find microscopic life anywhere (else) in the solar system I think a slight feeling of loneliness will begin to form.
Such may evidence that life is quite rare.

While we have not felt it yet because we have not begun to really explore, we have a hidden fear that we might actually be alone or that other life may be so very distant.

If we do find microscopic life in the solar system (that was not formed on earth), this will indeed begin to change some of our perspectives.

What we may not have yet realized is that either way things are going to change. Confirming either the rarity or the abundance of life will change things each in there own way.
If life is abundant we will what to discover it.
If life is rare we will want to plant it.

Barry

we are all in this together

Ransom's picture

That entire statement rest on the assumption that life began in the manner they suppose according to their man made paradigm (evolution). Problem is, they have never proved (even in a control science lab with man's intervention through experiment) it to be so.

Actually, this has nothing to do with evolution, but abiogenesis. Completely different subject.

tom-g's picture

Ransom,

A rose by any other name....!

Actually Rich was correct but he just didn't go far enough. My Webster's defines your term as a former theory in biology NOW REJECTED.

Tom

JL's picture

Your Webster's is in error. Abiogenesis, transpermia, and special creation are the only hypotheses on the table for initial life.

Before Pasteur's experiments, abiogenesis was assumed to be quick and common. Now, those who believe it, believe it to be slow and rare.

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

JohnRiffe's picture

[Here's a fuller explanation of what I'm trying to say http://prophecyandhistory.com/?q=node/84 ]

I think its interesting that God fixates on water so much from the very Beginning. Water is also the main thing that scientists fixate upon to find possible locations for biological life beyond Earth's. (That's why they got so excited when they found unmistakeable evidence of water on Mars of late via the robotic surveyors "Spirit" and "Opportunity" and "Endeavor"). Of all the things that students of Nature have forever insisted as absolutely necessary to sustain biological life, it is water. (I believe I'll have a glass right now...) And governmental planners are coming to agree that the most sought after natural resource in the not too distant future is water. Why does God fixate on the waters? And why did God make a point to tell us within the opening words of His Book where the water is? Why did God tell us there is water on the other side of the sky as well as what we have here on this side? Was He encouraging our curiosity about life-supporting places beyond the Earth?

Genesis 1:1-19
Proverbs 8:24-31

God fixates on water for the same reason we do: that's where human beings can live, "the habitable part."
So why would God give us all this detail about where the water is? He lets us know, even long, long ago, that there is both water under the sky, (which is self-evident), and water above the sky, ABOVE THE EXPANSE INTO WHICH ARE SET the notable lights -thesun, themoon, and the viewable planets ("stars") which help serve as signs to mark the seasons and days and years.

So why does God tell us all this?

[It kind of reminds me of how God also told Adam where he could find some gold & gemstones,
Genesis 2:10-12, "Now a river went out of Eden to water the garden, and from there it parted and became four riverheads. 11 The name of the first is Pishon; it is the one which skirts the whole land of Havilah,where there is gold. 12 And the gold of that land is good. Bdellium and the onyx stone are there." NKJV]

So again, why does God make a point tell us about the water BELOW "the firmament/expanse/sky;"Sun, Moon, stars set IN "the firmament/expanse/sky;" and water ABOVE "the firmament/expanse/sky" unless there will eventually be a need to know? Since God saw fit to tell us these things were so at the Beginning, it reasons that He would tell us if this arrangement has ever been changed since.

I think I can find it within my understanding of things to expect water out there beyond the same Sun, Moon and stars referred to in Genesis 1. This communicates to me that God has provided for the sustaining of biological life both here on Earth (below the "firmament/expanse/sky”) as well as the sustaining of biological life beyond the Sun, Moon and stars, (above the "firmament/expanse/sky" into which these lights are set).

And since I hold that Jesus has already Returned, (albeit, in a time and manner not popularly grasped), I must hold that the New Jerusalem, (the Kingdom of the Heavens, Kingdom of God), is also here - lasting forever and ever. This being the case, there remains no end or cataclysm to interfere with Mankind's "going up and taking the land," as seems eventually desirable, even necessary. (It may be a while, though, there is plenty yet that can be done right here. And there's plenty of time - untold centuries to come, actually).

Virgil's picture

Your observation on water is very interesting; what if God gave us humans the ability to use the water on Mars to populate the planet and transplant life over to it? It may sounds a little sci-fi-ish for some folks but it's not inconceivable. Who knows what our solar system will look like 50 thousand years from now?

mazuur's picture

Virgil,

I started to talk in this same manner in a post I was replying to you in, but I then deleted it.

I think one of the reasons for the vastness of space is to serve as a playground for man. I believe in 10,000 years we should have Star Wars technology to travel far distances.

In conjunction with this, man will further the spread of the "Kingdom". Think where Preterism will be hundreds, if not thousands of years, from now. Man will understand the true nature of the Kingdom and understand that it's to always being expanded upon in the physical realm. Man will take the Kingdom out into the Universe.

Who knows what God is "creating" (currently) out there in space. There could be billions of planets just like earth in the process of forming just waiting for man to finally reach the point where he can travel to them and populate them. All to further the Kingdom of His Christ.

-Rich

-Rich

Virgil's picture

Remember dude...the same people who were advocating flying were mocked by everyone who saw they ideas as extravagant and unrealistic. The future holds great possibilities for the mankind. God gave us imagination for a reason: to pursue what we can imagine. :)

mazuur's picture

Yeah, but I don't live under Calvin so I don't need to be worried about the stake.

-Rich

-Rich

Starlight's picture

Rich and Virgil,

I ‘m one of the most pro science guys that you can run across but I think you have seen too many Star Trek or Lost in Space episodes.
Take a look at an excerpt from one of Hugh Ross’s discussion concerning the limitations of space travel. Mathematical probabilities destroy most of these “far fetched “ideas.

Begin Quote:

“How realistic is the notion of interstellar (between planetary systems) or intergalactic (between galaxies) travel—even if we temporarily suspend questions about the possibility of intelligent physical life beyond Earth? Of all the books available on UFO phenomena, few give adequate attention to the properties of space and to the physical challenges of space travel. Such challenges have been underscored by human endeavors of the past few decades, including Apollo 13 and the biosphere experiments.
Distance Problems

In this day of almost routine success by the National Aeronautics and Space Administration (NASA) in sending spacecraft to Earth's neighboring planets (not to mention familiar television and movie depictions of space travel throughout the Milky Way and beyond), people may easily lose sight of two facts: (1) the laws and constants of physics set hard limits on any significant space travel by intelligent physical beings; and (2) no amount of technological capability can overcome such limits.

One obstacle to intergalactic or even planetary-system-to-planetary-system travel arises from the enormous distances separating the stars. Distance, of course, translates to time, and time translates to risk exposure. The more time a living or mechanical body spends in space, the more dangers it encounters—deadly dangers.
The nearest star is 25 trillion miles away. If one were to use a grapefruit to model our roughly million-mile diameter Sun, the distance to the nearest star, on this scale, would be the distance from Los Angeles to Managua, Nicaragua. If a person were to hitch a ride to that star on NASA's fastest (to date) spacecraft, the trip would take 112,000 years.

The nearest stars, however, fail to meet the basic requirements for life support. Sentient physical beings require an Earth-like habitat—one that orbits a single, middle-aged star closely resembling the Sun. This planet's orbit must be nearly circular, not too eccentric. The planet must be shielded from asteroid bombardment by a massive companion planet (such as Jupiter) but cannot be bounced around by the gravity of that protector planet. Many more criteria could be listed, but these suffice to make the point.2 No star within about 50 light-years of Earth can meet these requirements. Those with a mass similar to the Sun's are either too young or too old to burn with sufficient stability.3 They possess partner stars or huge nearby planets that would disrupt the orbit of any Earth-like planet, or they lack large protector planets

Read the full article at the following link.

http://theresurgence.com/hugh_ross_2001_aliens_from_another_world

Norm

mazuur's picture

Norm,

bah. He has no vision and is limited by filtering possibilities through our current technology, and through our current understanding of physics. Everything could change over night.

The scientific discoveries that awaits man is unlimited. Who knows, we may even discover how to "bend space" (or something similar) and the problem of distance is not even an issue.

Do you think 2000 years ago man even had the imagination of traveling faster than the speed of sound? They couldn't even grasp the idea that sound was a wave that moved. So, how can any man today even grasp things that might be common place 10,000 years in our future? I can't even imagine the computing power that man will have 10,000 years from now, and I already have the knowledge of a device called a microprocessor.

-Rich

-Rich

Starlight's picture

Rich,

Yes, I know the pro arguments as well as anyone.

Let's hope that we make it 10,000 more years as the next mega volcano or huge asteroid may take care of us any way. We might want to expend more time and energy putting controls on Yellow Stones super volcano than messing with space travel. We have higher probabilities of controlling the earth's dynamics than effective long distance space travel.

What chance do you see in our controlling our own physical destiny here on earth long term?

The deserts and Oceans are much more hospitable to our living in them than space is. Besides population demographics predict we will start a downward trend by the end of this century. There will be no incentive to populate space.

The practical and economic issues are most likely more important than technology.

Norm

JohnRiffe's picture

All the difficulties you describe are legitimate. And they are daunting. Its reality. But I also think one of the great lessons God gets across throughout the Scriptures, whether its conquering the giants to go up and take the promised land or conquering death to take the exceedingly great and precious promises of God in Christ, it is this: "ALL THINGS ARE POSSIBLE TO HIM WHO BELIEVES" and "WITH MAN THIS IS IMPOSSIBLE, BUT WITH GOD NOTHING SHALL BE IMPOSSIBLE.

I wonder what God was getting at with His special miracles on the Day of Pentecost. I like to consider if the blessing Pentecost is the reversing of the curse at the Tower of Babel.

The coloring and hightlighting I am able to do on my website allows me to point out the interesting similarities between the two:

Genesis 11:1-8
Acts 1:4-11 and Acts 2:1-12

From: http://prophecyandhistory.com/?q=content/there-no-glass-ceiling-blocking...

Starlight's picture

John,

I appreciate your response and I also agree that all things are possible through God such as overcoming the laws of physics through creating out of nothing to feed the thousands, walking on water and overcoming physical death. All these things were done as signs and wonders so that we might believe and have faith in the one who overcame spiritual death so that we may have spiritual “Life” and eternal assurance.

All of these signs and wonders were performed in the that ancient context and I see nowhere in scriptures that we mortals are going to be given the keys to overthrow physical laws again in the future so that we may colonize the Universe. It sounds wonderful to escape into another dimension where everything is possible but I fear we could simply be replacing futurist heavenly ideas for a science fiction futurist variety. We need to be careful that we are not trading one form of futurist escapism for another variety just to fulfill our deep desire for an eternal longing.

We are stewards of the good earth and it should last us for as long as God intended it too. I like science fiction escapism just as much as the next guy and all the dreamy netherworlds that we can bring to mind. But there is a limit to our abilities as we are finite creatures and this whole Universe is a finite dimension as well and will not be around forever. As soon as we get our Star Wars minds around that reality we can return to the business at hand which is everyday Godly living.

We can catch the movies on the weekends :)

Norm

PS. I agree that Pentecost was a reversal of Babel as a close inquiry into the Hebrew language discloses that the scattering was more related to a diversity of religious beliefs than simply the language. James Jordan discusses this in some of his work on his web site and in his new book on Daniel.

JohnRiffe's picture

"I agree that Pentecost was a reversal of Babel"

What I see in the account at the Tower of Babel was certain key phrases such as:

Gen 11:6 And the LORD said, Behold, the people is one, and they have all one language; and this they begin to do: and now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do.

This is talking about natural men here being able to eventually do whatever they can imagine. This is not talking about suspending the laws of physics to work supernatural miracles. This is simple saying that when even natural men cooperate together they can accomplish anything they set their minds upon. ANYTHING.

In the early 1960's, many said that landing two men on the moon and returning them alive was impossible. But, like ancient Nimrod, Kennedy called upon the nation to find a way to do it. It was a massive undertaking, one that harnessed together tens of thousands of employees of hundreds of contractors. The level of their cooperation and the intensity of their focus harkened back to that of the Manhattan Project that produced the first atom bomb.

They landed 2 men on the moon and brought them back alive in July, 1969. No suspension of the laws of physics was required; no supernatural miracles. They simply cooperated together to overcome the obstacles of nature and made their shared dream happen. THIS is what I am talking about.

At the Tower of Babel, God recognised that those ancient men could make happen whatever they set their minds to do because of the level of cooperation with which they were working together, "of one mind and langauge." God frustrated them by dividing them up with different languages. But at Pentecost, God set in motion the process by which men come together again, speaking the same language, learning the way of peaceful cooperation again ---> restoring their collective capabilities so that, once again, "now nothing will be restrained from them, which they have imagined to do." (Gen 11:6)

Again, no one is talking about suspending any laws of physics. We are only talking about people learning the way of peace sufficiently to cooperate together to accomplish amazing things. ---> and this time, with God's Pentecost blessing (unlike at Babel).

plymouthrock's picture

John, Norm

Thanks for posting your thoughts. I am writing an in depth study on precisely this topic - Babel and Pentecost and the issue of spiritual gifts.

I am a going to cull a few nuggets from you two if you don't mind.

plymouthrock!

JohnRiffe's picture

*Feel FREE to claim as your own anything I write - while I retain the right to do the same the same with it.*

This has been my signature line in years past. In fact, its the whole reason I post anything anywhere ---> simply to share things that bless me and hope to see spread.

Please cull whatever you want from my website. Here is a section devoted to the fruit of a Tribulation-is-past view: invigorating hope for the future:

http://prophecyandhistory.com/?q=content/the-gospel-3rd-millennium-christianity

Starlight's picture

Rock,

You may be interested in Jordan’s work on this subject. He devotes a chapter called “In the Land of Shinar” to Babel and ties it in with Pentecost. His book is “The Handwriting on the Wall”.

I’m going to quote an extensive excerpt for you to get a taste of what he is doing in this chapter.

Begin quote:

This situation recurs in the Babel Project. The second group of people involved in Babel were apostate descendants of Shem through Eber (Hebrew). Eber had two sons, and one joined with
Nimrod at Babel. This was the line of Joktan, while the line of Peleg led down to Abram (Genesis 10:21–31). Joktan is given thirteen sons and thus has become a “people.” The world was divided in the days of Peleg and Joktan (10:25), an event that in context can only refer to the Babel incident. We read in 10:30 that Joktan and his clans’ “dwelling was from Mesha as you go toward Sephar, the mountain of the east.” Only four sentences later we read, “And it came about as they journeyed east” (11:2). Who is “they” here? It might be the “families of Noah” from 10:32, or the “sons of Shem” from 10:31, but since “they” are identified as a group moving east, it seems clear that “they” are the Joktanites from 10:30.

Thus, the “they” who are referred to throughout 11:2–9 are specifically the false Hebrews, the Joktanites. We already know however that Nimrod and the Cushite Hamites were also involved in
the Babel Project, but it is specifically the apostasy of the priestly line that is in focus in the Babel incident. This is important, because it focuses us on the religious rather than the political or cultural aspect of the Babel affair. Understanding that the religious aspect is primary but does not
exclude the cultural aspect, which is important but secondary, we can see a whole list of dualities in the Babel story; to wit:

We read first of all, “Now the whole earth had one language [lip] and one vocabulary [set of words]” (Genesis 11:1). The word usually translated “language” (saphah) in this verse actually means “lip.” Saphah, as a concordance study will show, can refer to the lips of the human mouth, the edge of the sea, the lip on a bowl or basin, or to speech. When it refers to speech, it does so in a context of the content of speech, not the language thereof, and especially the confessional or religious content of speech. The phrase “one vocabulary” refers to language, but the phrase “one lip” refers to religion. The word for “language” in the immediate context is lashon, used for various Japhethite, Hamite, and Shemite tongues in Genesis 10:5, 20, and 31. See also Deuteronomy 28:49, Nehemiah 13:24, Esther 1:22, 3:12, 8:9; Isaiah 28:11; Jeremiah 5:15; etc. “Lip” means religious confession. For instance, alluding on the Tower of Babel, the prophet Zephaniah wrote: “For then I will restore to the peoples a pure lip, that they all may call on the name of the Yahweh” (Zephaniah 3:9).

The only other place in the Bible where the saphah is generally mistranslated as “language”
is Psalm 81:5, where again it clearly refers to religious confession,
not to a foreign language: v. 4. For this is a statute for Israel, And a law of the God of Jacob.
v. 5. This He established in Joseph for a testimony when He went throughout the land of Egypt, Where I heard a language [lip] that I did not understand.

Notice that the word lip is parallel to statute, law, testimony in the preceding phrases. It clearly refers to a religious confession, not just to Egyptian vocabulary and syntax.
A glance at a Bible concordance will show the religious meaning of “lip.” Start by looking at Job 27:4; 33:3; Psalm 12:2–4; 16:4; 40:9; 45:2; 51:15 (“Yahweh, open my lips, and my mouth will show forth Your praise”); Isaiah 6:5 (“I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell among a people of unclean lips.”); Isaiah 6:7; Malachi 2:6–7. What happened at the Tower of Babel was not first and foremost a division of languages, but rather a division of religious beliefs. Are we excluding languages? By no means; the parallelism in verse 1 and the dualities throughout the passage prove that both religious and cultural-linguistic diversification was involved. The primary division, however, was in terms of religion.

We are now ready to take up Genesis 11:1–9 line by line. Doing so will set before us the fundamental aspects of the Babylon concept. 11:1 AND ALL THE EARTH WAS OF ONE LIP AND ONE VOCABULARY. We have commented on this already. We should note, however, that the entire human race is in view here, while only the apostate priestly Hebrew Joktanites are in view in what follows. The sin of the priestly people affects the whole human race, just as the sin of Adam did. Though not all of humanity was present at Babel, the scattering of religions and languages affected all humanity because of the sin of their representatives. The Shemites were established as priestly representatives in Genesis 9:26–27, and the Shemite line has focussed to the Hebrews at this point.

End Quote:

Norm
PS. I edited a little out of this above section so it’s not a pristine quote.

plymouthrock's picture

Thank you very much Norm!

plymouthrock!

Starlight's picture

John,

Let me continue to provide just a little variation of Babel and my take on its implications. Historically Babel has been thought to be about God disrupting men and their desire to be as gods. In essence that belief about Babel’s meaning is what leads us to think we can put our minds to any task and accomplish it. That is not the main point of this section of Genesis though and in fact it becomes more of an illustration that nothing can be accomplished with out God’s hand of approval, and what man can accomplish is done so only in His will. We need to remember Biblical scriptures are theological works of literature and the actual work that was being constructed there was a tower limiting God and so this is the underlying current in which men were beginning to pervert the honoring of God.

I will state a position now that needs restating over and over again constantly concerning our investigation of the scriptures. All scripture has a theological purpose behind it and that the consistent unity of that purpose is pointing to the eventual replacement of a decadent means of obtaining life and peace with the only one that count, Jesus Christ. That was the story of Babel as it was an attempt by man to circumvent the prophetic “seed” line and impose its own will just as Adam did.

This is the underlying story of Babel and the better translation is “11:1 AND ALL THE EARTH WAS OF ONE LIP AND ONE VOCABULARY.” One lip refers to a common religious belief as it is applied in the Hebrew OT. This was the state of affairs that we find at Babel but it was being polluted by false religion and was dispersed and men were not to rise under one religion until Pentecost. That is when men from the Nations gathered to hear the message spoken to them in their own tongues so that they may join together in reunification of what had been dispersed at Babel. They came together in “one Lip” (one religion) again this time forever.

This story of Babel also has implications for the story of Daniel where reference is made back to the land or plain of Shinar when the Hebrews are dispersed into the Nations to help prepare them for the acceptance of the coming of Pentecost by becoming acquainted with the God of the Hebrews. Jonah started it by going and preaching to Nineveh and converting them. The Hebrews (Daniel) influenced Babylon and Assyrian peoples and leaders with a fear of the Lord and thus set the stage.

John, the adventure to go to the Moon was one of man’s greatest monuments of all time. It reminds me though of another era when massive undertakings were embraced by a Nation. We still have those monuments with us although they are withering away and are not as glorious as they once were. I’m speaking of the Pyramids of Egypt which had their origins nearly 5000 years ago. They are here to remind us that the glories of man fade just as the glory of the moon missions continue to fade into the past as we can’t seem to afford that luxury of pyramid space building at this time. Just as the Egyptians quit building great Pyramids so to we just send mechanical robots to take pictures, cook a little mud pie and get all giddy about finding some ice.

John I’m playing devils advocate somewhat here as I agree in mankind having purposeful goals but I’m also a historic realist and can look at past and present events and see our limitations as well. Like Dirty Harry liked to say “A man’s got to know his limitations”.

If you read carefully the complete story from the previous post web link I shared you will see that man would have to develop miraculous powers beyond normal physical laws to escape our solar system. There is nothing in our solar system equal to earth for habitation.

Why don’t we check back with each other periodically say every 500 years or so and see how life is that much different here on earth. We have had the biggest improvements in history during the past 100 years of mankind but the essence of our lives really hasn’t changed that much when you stop and think about it.

Blessings

Norm

Barry's picture

Hey Norm,
Quote:
We have had the biggest improvements in history during the past 100 years of mankind but the essence of our lives really hasn’t changed that much when you stop and think about it.
End Quote.

I could not disagree more with this statement Norm. :)

At no point in previous human history have we found such a deep and profound affect that the one has an effect upon the whole. Never before has a distant country been able to effect other countries around the entire world. Never before has our interconnectedness been more MANIFEST. And this point is what is presently being realized. We are not making Unity, we are realizing it. And such is the difference between an independent human potential and what is possible with God.

Man cannot make Unity, man can only realize divine Unity in whom will live and breath and have our being.

It is this man made "made with hands" interconnectedness that God put a spoke in the wheel of at Babel. At Babel, God intervened in the aspect of an independent Human potential lest such progress then bring about eventual catastrophe.

Yes this dealt with covenantal issues of the time. But covenant is not and was not an end to a means, being thus self serving, but rather was a catalyst to work out from comprehensively. A covenant is a promise.

We see the unfolding of these things now. Humanity is becoming in practical terms "one" because humanity has a sovereign creator who is one and is all in all.

Having (covenantally) taken away the precedence of an independent human potential that stood in the presence of types and figures God has in and through His possibility made unity.
The firstfruits were the willing participants in this possibility within the age of types and figures and thus overcame that world.

The temple made with hands (the pinnacle of an independent human possibility) is destroyed permanently. Man cannot rebuild this temple.
Mankind can only now realize it's passing away.

While Pentecost is the fulfillment reversal of Babel, there is a continuing outworking of fulfillment.
One major stepping stone of this is seen in universal translation which is now in its infancy.

The continued outworking of fulfillment as seen in the aspect of our interconnectedness is seen in:
Printing press, akin to the giving of the law.
Internet, akin to Abraham.
Universal translation, akin to Babel.

There are many minor out-workings which correlate. Such as Israel's move from Judicial to Monarchy and the reversing of that.
http://infinite-grace.com/judges.htm

See also:
http://infinite-grace.com/historygift.htm

Blessings,
Barry

we are all in this together

Starlight's picture

Barry,

Yep, I didn’t really define well what my essence entails did I.

I had in mind the mundane daily living that is the quintessence embodiment of our personal lives. I wasn’t really looking at the collective sense although that is an interesting discussion. I guess I’m speaking from personal experience of being born into a relatively rural pre modern life myself and comparing the realities of daily life then with today’s personal realities. I was born on a rural farm in which we did not have an indoor bathroom, television or many of the other things we now take for granted. We raised 90% of our own food and butchered animals daily as we needed them and I milked the cow by hand until the day I left for college. We worked the fields by hand and with a tractor and sold the surplus along with extra milk, cream and eggs to the local town general stores for other necessities.

As I look back on those times I try to determine what the difference is for me today. Primarily I have just exchanged working on agriculture with working on computers. I still read news, the Bible, and interact with people daily and then go home to rest and then to bed. These are all human endeavors that are time objects in which we spend the time that we have. I may have the chance to live a few years more than my ancestors due to medical advances but that doesn’t change the fact that I will still be living life doing things by simply filling my time. That is the human condition and my premise is that it will continue in multifaceted ways in the years and eons to come but it will still be just regular daily living in which the principles of Christ are never changing as man’s nature will not basically change unless one espouses evolutionary processes. The essence of a man’s life is not really the embodiment of the things around him in other words but who he allows himself to become.

Now as far as collectively there is no doubt that mankind enters different levels technologically that will affect us in the cooperative sense. Just like the introduction of the printing press increased man’s collective knowledge so also the internet and the sharing of ideas collectively will just continue to increase as one example.

I will say that I sense a little of the collective nostalgia in your post Barry and what I mean is a sense that comes from say a Marxist collective mentality as the plan for mankind. Now we saw the fruits of man’s aborted attempts at that perceived higher level through the failures of Nazism, Fascism, and Communism this past century. That doesn’t mean that some form of social improvement isn’t allowable and expected but the ideology of Marx was found wanting and relegated to the dustbin of history. Huxley’s “Brave new World” seems to be somewhat of a model for you although yours is tempered somewhat with a biblical connection.

Barry part of your analysis uncertainty is it is based upon too short a period of time to be statistically verifiable and reliable. Let’s check the trend in another 100 years and see how things are progressing for humanity. Although the “Bomb” has kept the big boys from each other’s throat for half a century there is no guarantee that the status quo will remain with us perpetually.

Now for the positive agreement, I do agree that God is working in the world of which there can be no doubt and there are lots of positives as you are recognizing. It is exciting especially when we consider the long dark valley the Nations have transverse in the past 100 years. There is room for some quiet optimism though as we watch a billion Chinese pickup the mantel of Christianity and freedom. So I’m not completely off of your bandwagon but I tend to be guardedly optimistic. I sure don’t want the flag of Hitler’s 1000 year reign to be flown again where it is just refabricated with the window dressing of Christianity covering it. It’s kind of hard for me to imagine the marriage of Christianity and Socialism into a new land of Babel.

Yes the small seed is growing into that largest of Trees isn’t it, but occasionally there is some pruning to be done by the Gardner.

Blessings

Norm
PS. Barry your example of Universal translation of the word is a great point concerning speaking in one language.

Life14all's picture

Virgil you wrote;

"God gave us imagination for a reason: to pursue what we can imagine."

I tweaked it a little more to my artistic liking;

"God gave us the ability to reason so that our imagination could be limitless in our pursuits."

Jim K.

PreteristArtist

Virgil's picture

Yeah..yours is better than mine. I like it :)

JohnRiffe's picture

I completely agree. I really think this is where the power is to the Preterist view --> that the future is a blank page waiting to be written, co-authored together with us and Jesus, tommorrow is determined by what we do with Jesus today, not be divine judgments upon generations of man long buried. This is "Good News" to bright-eyed, idealistic college students who want to dream that the future is worth living for and passing on to their children --> an energetic outreach to the upcoming movers and shakers, (movers & shakers who would turn away from the "Good News" if it tried to paint out a fatalistic doomsday vision).

There is a section of my website dedicated to these thoughts --> the fruit of a Tribulation-is-past view. Here is one article from that section.

From: http://prophecyandhistory.com/?q=content/you-are-heirs-cosmos

What do these verses bring to mind?
Romans 4:13
Abraham and his Seed received the Promise that He would be Heir of the World (Greek "kosmos").

Galatians 3:16-17, 19
16 Now to Abraham and his Seed were the Promises made. He does not say, "And to seeds," as of many, but as of one, "And to your Seed," who is Christ.
17 And this I say, that The Law, which was four hundred and thirty years later, cannot annul the covenant that was confirmed before by God in Christ, that it should make the promise of no effect.
What purpose then does the Law serve? It was added because of transgressions, till the Seed should come to Whom the Promise was made;

In the Romans 4:13 phrase, "Heir of the World," the term "World" is derived from the Greek, "Kosmos," the root of the English word, "Cosmos," as well as similar words of every language, such as Russian's, "cosmonaut," (that is, "navigator of the Cosmos").

Does being "Heir of the Cosmos" have implications that exceed what most of us have imagined?

Matthew 28:18
Jesus came to them and said, "All authority in Heaven and on the Earth has been given to Me."

As a Christian, (and consequently an heir of Abraham), what does being an "heir of the Cosmos" mean to you?

Romans 8:17
Now if we are children, then we are heirs — heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ

Romans 9:8
That is, those who are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God; but the children of the Promise are counted as the Seed.

Galatians 3:29
And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's Seed, and heirs according to the Promise.

The Blessing of Abraham = The Promise = the Holy Spirit of God

Galatians 3:14
That the Blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the Promise of the Spirit through faith.

Acts 2:32-33
32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the Promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
KJV

Ephesians 3:20-21
Now to Him who is able to do exceedingly abundantly above all that we ask or think, according to the Power that works in us,
21 to Him be glory in the Church by Christ Jesus to all generations, forever and ever. Amen.

SuperSoulFighter's picture

I posted this on my blog quite a while ago, but it bears repeating in the light of this discussion about the possible existence of "alien/extra-terrestrial intelligent life forms".

Check out this link for amazing info and pics of Iapetus. It really seems to be some kind of ancient, abandoned, artificially constructed "space station" of some kind - like the giant "Death Star" of the Star Wars movies. It'd be fascinating to see a probe land on this moon and explore it. A manned landing someday would be even more intriguing.

http://www.enterprisemission.com/moon1.htm

www.enterprisemission.com has some fascinating material on the whole subject of possible life on Mars.

FireByNite's picture

I also have two papers published about Iapetus -- the idea that it is a "space station" is complete nonsense.

The Tortured Landscape of Iapetus
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/arch07/070720iapetus.htm

Iapetus Rising
www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/arch08/080410iapetus.htm

The Thunderbolts Picture of the Day archive also lists many other papers I've written about Saturn and its system of moons...

Thank-you,
Steve Smith

SuperSoulFighter's picture

How is a perfectly symmetrical, geometrically exact "wall" formed by random, natural forces on a "moon" like this, Steve? This "wall" exists at Iapetus' equator, intriguingly enough. I don't think that just happened by accident.

Also, how do you explain the angular geometry of its horizon? There seems to be some sort of hexagonal structure becoming more and more exposed as the outer shell is worn away via meteorite impacts etc.

This explanation is - if you'll pardon my saying so - a little absurd: In a previous Thunderbolts Picture of the Day, the strange equatorial bulge around Saturn’s moon, Iapetus was discussed. The similarity between it and several types of “concretion” found here on Earth suggest that they all may have been formed in electrical events that act on several scales. As Cassini continues to gather data, more evidence that electric discharge machining may have excavated Iapetus has been seen.

Just a few thoughts from my angle.

John

FireByNite's picture

Wow! Someone actually responded to this comment.

I don't know what you're referring to when you call the equatorial bulge on Iapetus a "geometrically exact 'wall'"

www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/arch08/080121mal-mimas.htm

An excellent image of the "Himalayas of Iapetus" heads the article, Iapetus Rising.

Does that look "geometrically exact"?

The bulge was created when Iapetus was engulfed by a plasma discharge from Saturn. The electrodynamic forces crushed the moon in a Bennett Pinch and compressed the material into a smaller denser object. The same thing happens when you hit metallic objects here on Earth with large electrical jolts in the 100,000vac 10a range. The objects shrink dramtically and bulge out in an equatorial ridge just like the moon.

See Bert Hickman's quarter-shrinking experiments on his Teslamania site.

http://thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/arch08/080410iapetus.htm

BTW -- for an analysis of hexagonal cratering on planets and moons as forensic remnants of electric discharge machining:

www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/arch08/080121mal-mimas.htm

Saturn's weird moon Mimas is peppered with hexagonal craters, as is Mercury.

Steve Smith

FireByNite's picture

I also have two papers published about Iapetus -- the idea that it is a "space station" is complete nonsense.

The Tortured Landscape of Iapetus
http://www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/arch07/070720iapetus.htm

Iapetus Rising
www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/arch08/080410iapetus.htm

The Thunderbolts Picture of the Day archive also lists many other papers I've written about Saturn and its system of moons...

Thank-you,
Steve Smith

extremestan's picture

One of the abiogenetic hypotheses involves subzero, ice-embedded conditions. Our current lander's not very well equipped, but perhaps on later missions we'll find something living up there! The more we found out how God created us, the more about him we'll learn.

I tell you the truth; if it were not so, I would have told you.

Virgil's picture

Solar-derived electricity from a couple of tiny panels cannot create the power necessary to break through hard ice to depth, so yes you are right.

I still am extremely curious to know where all this water came from. There are even indications that water is flowing on mars; one photo showed dry river beds on the surface. What gives?

FireByNite's picture

It's been a long time since I passed by this site and was intrigued by the discussion about Mars. I write for a group called the Thunderbolts project (thunderbolts.info) and have published many articles about Mars and the other celestial bodies in our Solar System.

Here some examples of my papers about Mars:

Martian Water Features
www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/arch08/080428waterfeatures.htm

Sulfurous Mars
www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/arch07/071116sulfurousmars.htm

Martian Skylights in the Laboratory
www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/arch08/080104martianskylights.htm

Mars in Miniature
www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/arch07/071012marsminiature.htm

The Martian Polar Vortices
www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/arch07/070702martianpole.htm

Born out of Hell
www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2008/arch08/080102bornoutofhell.htm

Dust Braids in Melas Chasma
www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/arch07/071107dustbraids.htm

The Tharsis Montes Volcanoes
www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/arch07/071024tharsismontes.htm

Victoria's Other Secrets
www.thunderbolts.info/tpod/2007/arch07/071019victoriasothersecrets.htm

I'm sure you'll find the topic as facinating as it is to me.

Thank-you,
Steve Smith

mazuur's picture

"I still am extremely curious to know where all this water came from."

I got to thinking about your question. Are you just as curious where all the dirt came from that makes up the planet? Why can't water be just as plentiful as dirt?

-Rich

-Rich

Virgil's picture

Well, the reasons I was asking is because water doesn't seem to be as plentiful, as opposed to mineral-based matter like the dirt planets are made of.

mazuur's picture

But that is the point. Maybe it isn't as limiting as we think it is. Maybe it is everywhere. There is a lot more than dirt out there in space. Some planets are made up of nothing but gases. Where did all that gas come from? Why can't water be just as plentiful?

-Rich

-Rich

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