You are hereVirgil Vaduva, Planet Universalist, and The Bucs Make the Playoffs!

Virgil Vaduva, Planet Universalist, and The Bucs Make the Playoffs!

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By Sam - Posted on 06 January 2006

by Samuel Frost
Well, I suppose it has been awhile since I wrote anything for Planet Universalist. I recently have exchanged e-mails with some brothers (whom I dearly consider brothers) that have once again charged my batteries.Well, I suppose it has been awhile since I wrote anything for Planet Universalist. I recently have exchanged e-mails with some brothers (whom I dearly consider brothers) that have once again charged my batteries.First, let me address the problem of the act of reading material on Planet Arminianist. 1) You can’t see my facial expressions ( which are every bit a part of the communicative act, such as gesture, posture, brow-raising, smiling, grimacing, et al). Some, therefore, might read this and conclude that I am “angry” or “judgmental” or “liberal” or whatever. So, 2) I have to spell out from the outset that I am writing this from a heart that is quite optimistic, quite happy, quite healthy, and quite at ease. My family is intact, my wife is happy (a huge relief!) and my dog is fed. Oh, and did I mention that we have no snow in Florida? “Let them thank the LORD for his steadfast love, for his wondrous works to the children of men! For he satisfies the longing soul, and the hungry soul he fills with good things” (Ps 107.8.9 – ESV). All is well.

Now, I have been accused of “having relations” with Tim King and Virgil Vaduva, two of the largest promoters of Liberalism and Universalism ever to walk the preterist planet (I must chuckle at that pun myself). It is as if the sky is truly falling after all and the doom and gloom foretold in Revelation will, in fact, happen as Preterism crumbles all around us. After all, Chrisitianity has not survived with all of its errors, so why should Preterism (or, Transmillennialism – which, when I use either of these copyrighted terms, money is immediately sent to Virgil Vaduva and Tim King, respectively, since they “own” them). Let me use Paul’s argument: “If Christianity has not survived, then not even Preterism can survive, and if Preterism cannot survive, then we have been found as false witnesses! But, now, Christianity has survived!”

This is why I love Christian history. It was forged through sweat and argument; these things being the very things that God, in His Providence, used. “I didn’t say the work would not be easy, you cry babies! I said my burden is easy and yoke is light!” Yet, sometimes we want it the other way: Let’s make believing in Jesus for the forgiveness of sins really, really heavy, but let us not work to defend in detailed argument why it is so heavy. So, when someone comes along and again proclaims, “you know, believing in Jesus is easy” the Heavy Hitterists cry “foul!” Equally, the Easy Yokers fail to provide a detailed justification for their actions, and when they do, they encounter criticism and have to write more papers. Instead of this, why not just opt out?

Continuing my little story here, when the Heavy Hitterists cry, “foul”, the Easy Yokers generally give up in the name of “can’t we all just get along?” (the old Rodney King defense…what is it with these Kings, anyways?). What is worse, is that the Heavy Hitterists become labeled as such and are eventually “banned.” This, in turn, causes the Hitterists to invent new names (such as I have done throughout this essay). And so it goes, Christian history in the making. Now, someone will say, “right, that’s the problem. It’s the same old argumentation approach. We need to move beyond that.” Yet, when asked for a defense of what “beyond” looks like, we get, yet, another paper.

The general problem in all of this is where does one draw the line? Of course, we go to our Bibles and make some lines and say, “The Bible saaaayyss….!” Yes, the Bible says that. It says a lot of things. I love this line from the great Christian philosopher Gordon H. Clark: “Admittedly the theistic view of the world faces difficulties. There are questions to which Christianity seems to give an inadequate answer or none at all” (A Christian View of Men and Things, Trinity Foundation, 1980 – 34). And this is from a staunch conservative Calvinist!

Part of the problem, then, is that we think the Bible gives us all the answers for every problem and every supposed dilemma in which we might find ourselves. It doesn’t. Paul’s solution: “the conscience.” Now, to be sure, this conscience is not an individual acting apart from other individual advice, devoid of having effects on other individual consciences. That’s impossible in this world. Interaction is inescapable on this globe. Our decision affects others, as theirs affects us. In fact, I am writing this little rambling work precisely because I have been affected by others. We could argue some sort of causa secunda here, but you get the point.

Mainly, the decisions we have to make is, again, where do we draw the line? Virgil Vaduva and Planet Liberal befriends the Kings, and the Kings, we all know, are baaaadd. Samuel Frost gets to speak at Planet Deconstructionist’s conference and has his book published by them, and since Virgil is a flaming Liberal, then Samuel Frost is one, too. Guilt by association. In fact, some have gone so far to say that the only reason I hang with Transmellowists and Planet Post Modern is because they help boost my career and sell my books (I am laughing all the way to the bank as I compromise the Gospel, bury my head in the sand, and make a mockery of everything good and Christian so that I can sell another book or tape, or get my ego fed at a conference lecture – whew!).

But, wait, if that is true for me, isn’t it true for Don Preston, too? Isn’t it true for Gary DeMar, or any one else that supports or writes for Planet I-Don’t-Know-What-To-Believe? But, hold on! I go, sometimes, when necessary and depending on the situation, by the name Calvinist! Gasp! I must support everything he said, too! And, I happen to like Martin Luther’s theology. But, we all know Martin Luther would have written the most vile and foul things about Preterism (like he did the Jews of his day, which cannot be sugar coated if you have ever read his On the Jews and Their Lies - 1543). In fact, let me make this particular paragraph a little long whilst I quoteth from Luther himself, the Great Man of the Reformation, Whom We All Quoteth to Support Our Appeal to Sola Scriptura Against the Creed Huggers:

“Learn from this, dear Christian, what you are doing if you permit the blind Jews to mislead you. Then the saying will truly apply, "When a blind man leads a blind man, both will fall into the pit" [cf. Luke 6:39]. You cannot learn anything from them except how to misunderstand the divine commandments...”

“Moreover, they are nothing but thieves and robbers who daily eat no morsel and wear no thread of clothing which they have not stolen and pilfered from us by means of their accursed usury. Thus they live from day to day, together with wife and child, by theft and robbery, as arch-thieves and robbers, in the most impenitent security.”

“Did I not tell you earlier that a Jew is such a noble, precious jewel that God and all the angels dance when he farts?”

“In brief, dear princes and lords, those of you who have Jews under your rule-- if my counsel does not please your, find better advice, so that you and we all can be rid of the unbearable, devilish burden of the Jews, lest we become guilty sharers before God in the lies, blasphemy, the defamation, and the curses which the mad Jews indulge in so freely and wantonly against the person of our Lord Jesus Christ, this dear mother, all Christians, all authority, and ourselves. Do not grant them protection, safe-conduct, or communion with us. . . . With this faithful counsel and warning I wish to cleanse and exonerate my conscience.”

“However, we must avoid confirming them in their wanton lying, slandering, cursing, and defaming. Nor dare we make ourselves partners in their devilish ranting and raving by shielding and protecting them, by giving them food, drink, and shelter, or by other neighborly acts...”

“Accordingly, it must and dare not be considered a trifling matter but a most serious one to seek counsel against this and to save our souls from the Jews, that is, from the devil and from eternal death. My advice, as I said earlier, is: First, that their synagogues be burned down, and that all who are able toss sulphur and pitch; it would be good if someone could also throw in some hellfire...Second, that all their books-- their prayer books, their Talmudic writings, also the entire Bible-- be taken from them, not leaving them one leaf, and that these be preserved for those who may be converted...Third, that they be forbidden on pain of death to praise God, to give thanks, to pray, and to teach publicly among us and in our country...Fourth, that they be forbidden to utter the name of God within our hearing. For we cannot with a good conscience listen to this or tolerate it...”

Wow.

Well, that’s enough of Luther. Can you imagine anyone writing such stuff today? But, I tell you what, befriend Tim King or Virgil Vaduva and, well, you get the picture. Anyone have a torch lit?

But how can I still admire Luther? Well, I don’t know. I admire his theology in some degree. He was a tough old, bird. And, also, I am sure Luther was the product of his times, when such vitriolic papers were the norm. Our styles have changed over the years from where this once was the norm in theological circles, whereas it is now only found at KKK rallies held at trailer parks somewhere in Off The Map Country. Granted. But historians have linked Luther to the German zeitgeist of National Socialism. In fact, Bernhard Rust, Minister of Education under Hitler, stated, “Since Martin Luther closed his eyes, no such son of our people has appeared again. It has been decided that we shall be the first to witness his reappearance.... I think the time is past when one may not say the names of Hitler and Luther in the same breath. They belong together; they are of the same old stamp (Volkischer Beobachter, 25 Aug. 1933 – cited from The Holy Reich : Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919-1945 by Richard Steigmann-Gall). Many more quotes could be given, but the point is proven: identify with Luther in any way, and you are a Nazi, Anti-Semite.

Now, I can hear folks (Volks) getting upset for defaming Luther, but does the same mentality of some exist for those (like myself) who have not turned a cold shoulder to the Kings or to Planet Democrat? Does a friendship mean a full support? Does the fact that Virgil is my friend mean that he is now a Calvinist? God forbid (he would say!).

Maybe I am making light of all this. Making the seriousness of this issue of Tim King and Virgil Vaduva cannot be overlooked, while the intense dislike for the Jews Luther had (to the point of urging the magistrate to burn their synagogues) can be overlooked. I mean, after all, Luther was ein Kind des Vaterlands. Virgil and Tim are not synagogue burners, but, even worse: Universalists!!!! And here is the kicker: neither one of them has ever admitted to being Universalists!!! They just are because some of their writings are vague and ambiguous and appear to suggest a universal gospel. Heck, I was ready to disown them because they were Church of Christ! And now this!

Seriously, “If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone” (Paul, Rom 12.18 – or, for you Nazi’s, Luther’s translation: Ist's möglich, soviel an euch liegt, so habt mit allen Menschen Frieden). This goes for Transmillennialists, who can be as equally sneering at times, and for Planet Whatever Goes. Listen, if you offer peace and it is extended, and dialogue, however painful, ensues, then you post-modernists, with all your fancy linguistic “turns” and future-trend technocratic, critical “realist” ideas are walking the walk. If the Luther loving, synagogue burning, Michael Servetus killing Calvinists (such as myself) refuse that hand, then so be it. At least you made the effort and obeyed Paul. I believe this goes the same, vice versa, for us in our “camp” as well. I believe that I practice what I preach, and am willing to publicly say that, and publicly defend it. I know a lot of others that do as well.

It’s hard to talk to someone whom you imagine to be a complete bone-head. I mean, just ask my wife when she has to talk to me! It’s hard to talk to someone who has publicly spent a career out of trashing your good name. Heck, it would be very, very hard to talk to someone who even denied your name to your very face, when you spent 3 and half years training this person to be a leader within the community! And this, three times in a row! I am sure that criticism will come as a result of my writing this paper (affecting other consciences to respond kindly, or “Oh no, Sam is Liberal, Universalist now!”). I say, great! Let it continue (as long as someone does not urge government to burn down my house). I will try to hang in there as long “as it is within me” to do so. I will promise to listen. I will promise to extend courtesy. I will promise to painstakingly clarify my position so that there be no misunderstanding (a problem for postmodernists who have a hard time defining what “is” is). I will promise to be nice when I tell you that you are wrong, only if you promise to be nice when you tell me I am wrong.

Finally, my question raised earlier has not really been answered because we have not yet defined the “line” that cannot be crossed. I have my own “line” rooted in faith in Christ and that God raised him from the dead. Believe in that, and “you shall be saved.” Of course, we have to define “believe”, “Christ” and “God.” Herein lies the problem. However, maybe it is not words so much as it is actions that make the lines. If someone is downright violent in their approach (like wanting synagogues to be burned), perhaps it would be best to say, “you know what, I don’t think so.” But, has our differences among Preterists and Transmillennialists and all within those ideas really come to that? I mean, I respect the heck out of Ed Stevens and the wonderful job he has done. But, I can say the same of Tim and Max King. I get along with both. That may change, however, because some are saying that to even be friends is wrong. It matters not that I have publicly criticized post-modern philosophy, Universalism and Arminianism (oops!). To even be friends is a crime. To even appear to like Virgil is downright evil. One person said I was a “lost cause”! Yes, indeed, where does this end, for this same person quoteth Luther.

I guess each person has to make up their own mind, based on their own seeking out of counsel and devotion to the Lord. I, for one, simply have not come to any point of breaking ties with folks that I know in this goofy “movement”. Sure, some are, from my perspective, quite bankrupt when it comes to reasoning theologically, or even logically for that matter. But, when I make such a pronouncement, I am claiming that I am reasoning theologically better than they are. This would make me “more spiritual” I guess. And what did Paul say:

Brothers, if anyone is caught in any transgression, you who are spiritual should restore him in a spirit of gentleness. Keep watch on yourself, lest you too be tempted. 2 Bear one another's burdens, and so fulfill the law of Christ. 3 For if anyone thinks he is something, when he is nothing, he deceives himself. 4 But let each one test his own work, and then his reason to boast will be in himself alone and not in his neighbor. 5 For each will have to bear his own load. 6 One who is taught the word must share all good things with the one who teaches.

Now, of course, “teachers” are no longer for today, but died out in A.D. 70 (as some would say). But, that’s another matter. Another matter to argue….and another matter to argue while attempting to live at peace. “Of the increase of His Government and PEACE there shall be no end.” Isn’t that, really, what Covenant Eschatology, Preterism, Transmillennialism, Fullfilled Eschatology, blah, blah, blah is all about? (and if anyone has these names trademarked, please send me an address to which I can mail your residuals).

Oh, did I tell you that the Tampa Bay Buccaneers made the playoffs?

paul's picture

Dear Brother Sam,

I recall that someone told the Apostle Paul that too much reading had made him mad!!!

How can you even hang out with someone with a last name like "Vaduva" which sounds like a foreign car, undermining our American economy!!!

In all seriousness, what a riot. Points well taken. What a joy it is to love our brothers and sisters, and maintain the vital communication which has been necessary in all of our lives for us to ever change from point A to point B.

Thanks so much,

Paul Richard Strange, Sr
dadprs@hotmail.com

israel98's picture

Though I may not agree that we can all always "just get along..." I love what you have brought to this discussion. A smile.. :o)

leslie's picture

Wonderfull post Sam. From a former CoC and now a Southern Baptist Preterist. I have a lot of trouble figuring out who I AM, and your article has just added to my confusion.:) Les

Brother Les

MichaelB's picture

How can you attack a brother in Christ if we don't know what one is or isn't?

Mike Bennett(TM) =)

Paige's picture

Isn't asking "who my brother in Christ is" a little like asking "who is my neighbor"? Just wonderin'.

:)

JL's picture

And that, is the Planet Preterist "Play of the Game." Congratulations to Paige on that remarkable interception and 40-yard run into the end-zone.

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

MichaelB's picture

JL - no one said that you should treat anyone poorly. I simply asked how do you know who is a "brother" and who is not. The bible DEFINITELY makes that distinction.

Ephesians 6
10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Why is there a distinction / difference between the two groups mentioned in Ephesians.

So what designates a believer from an unbeliever...???

"All men are my neighbor. Not all men are my brother." - RC Sproul

Ed's picture

So what designates a believer from an unbeliever...???

Belief.

ed

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

MichaelB's picture

Really Ed - is that it - even pre-70 ???

James 2
19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder.

1 Corinthians 15
2By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Jude
3Dear friends, although I was very eager to write to you about the salvation we share, I felt I had to write and urge you to contend for the faith that was once for all entrusted to the saints. 4For certain men whose condemnation was written about[b] long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord

davo's picture

Come on Michael, don't keep us in suspense, spew forth what you really think – you know, as an acolyte of pastor nimRod what would he say.

davo

MichaelB's picture

Way to deal with the scriptures I put forth Davo.

By the way, I have never met Rod, but I do admire alot of what I have read that he has put together. Probably because he puts forth pretty biblical & logical arguments. I have even complimented Virgil at times. Heck, if I remember correctly I even said that I thought you had some interesting thoughts in previous posts awhile back.

Davo - you have resorted to name calling now. A sure sign that you are out of theological arguments and thoughts on the subject at hand.

All I said was that the bible is clear that there is a difference between a "brother" and a "neighbor" or "non-brother" and that there is more to "beiliving" than just "belief" ie there is a substance to it as demonstrated by the scriptures I put forth. there is no getting around this. I am posing the question of what it means to be a "believer" either pre or post 70 since there is no way of getting around this.

Ed's picture

Mike,
So what if you put forth scripture to prove a difference between "brother" and "neighbor?" That was NOT IN QUESTION. I know that is difficult for people like you to deal with - that we might be talking about something other than what YOU want to talk about, but alas, it is true.

The scripture is clear (but I know it is difficult for someone like you to consider anything other than what you believe). We are to do good to our neighbor.

And besides, your very comments are name-calling at their finest. You have disowned us as brothers along with your Pope, Pastor Rod. So, what's the point of your posts? Since we are unable live up to YOUR FAVOR, we are lost...

Oops, one of the Pope's cronies will probably latch on that one and claim that I admitted I was lost. That's the way it is done in the preterist world now, thanks to folks like Pastor Rod, Deacon Whitey, and Acolyte Mike.

I'm am so sick of this crap...some days I just want to delete all this stuff off my computer and never talk to pharisees like you again.

Oh, and I know I didn't deal with your scriptures nor site any of my own. I don't care. There's more fuel for the Pope's articles.

ed

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

israel98's picture

ED: "So what if you put forth scripture to prove a difference between "brother" and "neighbor?" That was NOT IN QUESTION. I know that is difficult for people like you to deal with - that we might be talking about something other than what YOU want to talk about, but alas, it is true.
."

Paige: (#2 POST on this section) "Isn't asking "who my brother in Christ is" a little like asking "who is my neighbor"? Just wonderin'. :)"

Ed,
You seem to be very hostile.
Because that is EXACTLY what is being discussed in this thread of comments from the beginning. Comments begun BY MichaelB!

vento's picture

When I'm lost, I like yahoo.maps better than mapquest. You should try it. I know it's tough for us men to admit when we are lost, So, I won't tell anyone. ;)

Scott

MichaelB's picture

LOL Ed - where have I ever said you are not my brother?

You are getting all bent out of shape just because I am asking you all what a brother is or isn't.

Its the bible that makes it clear that there is a difference.

I am just trying to figure out what that difference is. Sorry it doesn't fit your theology but it doesn't change the fact that it is in the bible. Yes Ed, IN THE BIBLE. Not "beyond the bible". Ed - you can't make it go away.

More name calling Ed - LOL - you are grasping at straws.

MichaelB's picture

Interesting how "loving your neighbor" actually served the purpose of "heaping burning coals on his head" =)

Romans 12
17Do not repay anyone evil for evil. Be careful to do what is right in the eyes of everybody. 18If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with everyone. 19Do not take revenge, my friends, but leave room for God's wrath, for it is written: "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," says the Lord. 20On the contrary:
"If your enemy is hungry, feed him;
if he is thirsty, give him something to drink.
In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

But none of you guys wanna compare scripture with scripture anymore...heck...we are "beyond the bible" now right ???

israel98's picture

Some things are clear to me in scripture.

1. The community of Christians was something that 1st century believers were dedicated to. They divided wealth, provided for the needs, and cared for ONE ANOTHER. This was above and beyond the treatment to just anyone.

2. The community of Christians was harsher on each other to follow the word. If a man claimed to be a believer, then sinned unrepentantly, they were to be treated worse than an unbelieving sinner in the realm of accountability. How can you hold someone to a standard they do not believe? It is more costly for the one who believes a standard and then sins against it willingly, than for one who sins against the standard they deny.
Christ was the perfect example of this when He loved the sinner, but constantly judged the Pharisee. How can we apply this to todays debate?

3. The words of Christ (ask for coat, give shirt...last first, first last...take the lowest seat...) are universally applied to all men. Everyone rates this treatment from a Christian, it is our salt and light...but to say that this command overrides the directions on our treatment of a brother who is in rejection of rebuke from those who have come to help him see the need to repent, is folly, and against scripture that gives policy to how we deal with a sinning brother.

Paige's picture

So...

When the "church" comes to one of its members and tells them to repent of the erroneous doctrine of preterism, they are justified to excommunicate the unrepentant and treat them as "worse than an unbelieveing sinner", correct?

Thats all fine and well w/me as I don't really care what the "church" thinks of me for following my conscience as to the way I interpret scripture.

Where it gets really scary is when the "church" starts trying to discipline those who listen to different music, read different books, women who wish to wear pants and cut their hair, drink a beer or glass of wine, smoke a cigarette, dance, etc... (This is not a list of my preferences, but rather examples of what I've seen gone after over the years.)

I refuse to let a group of people who want to label themselves "the church" tell me what books I can read or not read, what music I can listen to, whether I can believe the earth is old or young, if I can dance, drink, or smoke, pay taxes or not, bind me to the select few OT laws they want to conveniently (for them) leave up and running, etc...Call me crazy if you will, but I refuse to hand that power over to others.

Paige
(Now branded a heretic and an infidel)

israel98's picture

You sure put a lot of words into my mouth. I was responding to the discussion on how we deal with Christians differently to non-Christians using what I know from scripture.

You responded with an emotional rant, having nothing to do with what i actually said!

I said nothing about you or if a Christian believes a varying view of preterism.

Paige's picture

Actually, I showed how your prescription for the treatment of fellow christians can be abused and has been abused. That wasn't putting words in your mouth or any kind of attack on you. I am sorry that you read it that way.

What would your suggestion be to those who have been abused by a "church" that has overstepped its bounds? How is an abusive church held accountable for its actions?

I have been branded a heretic by others because I believe that Christ's redemption goes beyond the scope of what many have been willing to see (and also because I have the audacity to believe His work is finished). For that, I am accused of making a "mockery" of the gospel. Yes, I have some emotion involved in this...especially after what I've witnessed go down this past week.

Paige's picture

Mike,

"In doing this, you will heap burning coals on his head."

Do you take that to mean that the reason we do good is to cause another to suffer? I think the suffering occurs not because we intend it to, but rather one might suffer conviction knowing they have not acted in a way to deserve kindness. I don't think I'm doing "good" if my intent is not in line with my actions.

Jer's picture

Hi Paige:

You have the right idea. The phrase "heaping burning coals on his head" does not have to do with suffering as such. I believe the idiom speaks of honor and shame. The act of aiding your enemy is a positive honor challenge. If he does not respond in like manner, he would be put to open shame. The idea of "heaping burning coals on his head" is not punishment, but a challenge to your enemy to act the same towards you. I think it's a beautiful sentiment. Unfortunately, it's often misunderstood due to the idiom's "literal" translation. The Greek words are given English equivalents, but the meaning is not translated.

Regards,
Jeremy

KingNeb's picture

Paige, how so?

thereignofchrist.com

Paige's picture

Well,

It seems to me that there is a correlation between why both questions are asked (Who is my neighbor, and How can you attack a bro. in Christ if you don't know what one is or isn't). Luke 10:29 says the question was asked (who is my neighbor) because the man wanted to justify himself. I wonder if we want to split hairs about "who is really a christian" for the same reason. If I can come up with a test that supposedly reveals who "real" christians are am I justified in treating those who don't pass differently?

If I said this badly, I apologize.

Ransom's picture

Remarkably clear and brilliant. Thanks, Paige!

Ed's picture

No Paige, you nailed it on the head.

ed

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

MichaelB's picture

Ephesians 6
10Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

If thats the case - why the difference between the two groups mentioned in Ephesians.

"All men are my neighbor. not all men are my brother." - RC Sproul

Paige's picture

Mike,

I think that is Gal. 6:10 (rather than Eph.). In any case, you don't read the "especially to those who are of the household of faith" to be eradicating the command before it (do good to all) do you?

Gal.5:15 might also be good to remember:

"But if you bite and devour one another, beware lest you be consumed by one another."

Ed's picture

Even if someone is not your brother, we are called in scripture to do good to them. What Roderick is doing, even if he thinks we are all non-Christians, is in violation of scripture.

And Mike, I have a question: do you think we are not Christians?

ed

ed

Papa is especially fond of us

Virgil's picture

Apparently yes! And some are quite comfortable doing do!

vinster's picture

"To even appear to like Virgil is downright evil. One person said I was a “lost cause”!"

Then count us all as evil, brother!!!

And by the way: The Bucs won't move past this weekend ;^)

Vinster

KingNeb's picture

"And by the way: The Bucs won't move past this weekend"

well,,,you nailed that one.

thereignofchrist.com

Sam's picture

Prediction: Bucs 27 'Skins 14

Sam

soultattoo's picture

Sam, at first I thought you may be drinking the same beer that Luther used to drink, but then it came clear (LOL).
Great article

RWagner

Erick's picture

Ridiculous, ludicrous, an outrage, you can't be serious -- the Tampa Bay Buccaneers really made the playoffs? Perhaps we ARE in the last days :^)

Erick's picture

If I may post something on a more serious note (and a bit longer)… I think the general points Roderick has been making are valuable and worth paying attention to whether one thinks they apply to this situation or not, or if one is in complete doctrinal agreement with him or not. He is someone who values the Word of God above all - which is admirable and worth emulating. None of us should compromise essential doctrine for the sake of “unity” -- though we can be “neighborly” or even “friends” on other grounds. Plowing together becomes increasingly difficult with oxen that so often go in different directions. Eventually the work becomes virtually impossible and unwise. As Sam has pointed out our thresholds may vary from person to person, but even for the most ecumenical among us we must ultimately seek the Lord in his word (“to the law and the testimony”) to find out when enough is enough. As far as considering someone a brother, or just a neighbor the Bible does make a distinction, and tells us that if someone calls themselves a brother and lives immorally we are to actually treat them more “strictly” (1 Cor. 5:9-13) than an unbeliever, yet those “in good standing” we should make particular efforts to bless above and beyond what we’d even do for an unbeliever (Gal. 6:10) and not associate with a divisive person after they’ve been warned, and that “bad company spoils good character.” Clearly the Utopian love-fest that some portray as Biblical is mere fiction, yet love is the highest ideal and peace should be sought at every turn “in as much as it depends on you.”

Given that we all call ourselves “believers” or followers of Christ, and we spout off doctrinal opinions at every turn, we have an obligation to hold each other accountable to higher moral and doctrinal standards as well as be more zealous to bless each other at every opportunity. Although I’m not privy to all the drama surrounding this current situation (nor do I wish to be quite honestly), it does appear on the surface that Roderick in general is trying to maintain what he sees as a clear biblical standard, and I admire him for it. For me, anyone who wants to plow the field with the simple message that Christ’s coming was in 70AD, that message can yoke us together, but that yoke will crack and eventually break the more we pull in different directions on other things that define what that “coming” meant – we can eventually end up with two different comings and thus two different gospels - sure both could be false, but both can’t be true. Then we both may be plowing the field, but we can’t do so together, and we’ll have to wait for the growth to see whose work was more in line with the Farmer. Honestly, as a Calvinist/Preterist I enjoy coming here and debating some of you very much, I think many of you have some interesting ideas, but then some of you I wouldn’t let near my kids with a ten-foot Bible, LOL! – and, I’m sure the feeling is mutual :^) Anyway, at the risk of sounding “preachy” or stating the obvious, let me just say that God is a Father who is not afraid to discipline His children, may His name be glorified.
Peace,
Erick Blore

vento's picture

Well said, Erick. I appreciate your comments, as usual.

Scott

Randude's picture

I'm going to chuckle at this one all the way to the bookstore to buy more copies of Sam's book! Thanks for helping to put things in perspective Sam! I would love to see you get a new boat with your book sales, but I think you'll need to money to pay Virgil. He can then add it to the millions he has made off of the web site. ;) hehe

mazuur's picture

Well Sam, I just contributed to your collecting fortune. I just purchased a copy of your book on the Resurrection. Now you can get that boat you've always wanted.

Also, do people really think Virgil and Tim/Max King are Universalist? If so, it's obvious they have never read their writings, or they just can't read…opps...was that a little harsh? Luther would be proud I suppose.

Rich

-Rich

davo's picture

haha lol, good one Sam :). I didn't have you figured as a nimRod - which in Aussie parlance isn't all that complimentary.

davo

Flakinde's picture

Good stuff, Sam.

This whole porquería about attacking brothers in Christ deserved a good hard laugh, and that's exactly what you've helped us all do. Of course, some will want to crucify you, Virgil, and even me for this insignificant comment. To this I say: let it be so . . . let them be known by their fruits.

God bless my Preterist brothers and sisters who are applying their completed faith, hope and salvation to foment love throughout their walk and talk, and not only to strengthen their zeal for "being right" in theological disputes.

Blessed in His rest,

A. Rodríguez

Virgil's picture

Alex, nice commend dude. By the way, how did you come up with the word porquería? I thought that was only a romanian word!! It means "a pig farm" and this is the first time I see someone using it around here (of course it is spelled "porcaria"). I thought it was quite amusing :)

Flakinde's picture

Virgil,

I'm just a plain old stereotipifiable latino . . . Romanian and Spanish have the same common origin in Latin, from what I understand.

In Spanish porquería strictly means the same as in Romanian, but coloquially it's used just as you use the word (sorry if this is offensive) crap, which is what this whole issue is after all, no matter what language you rather use.

Peace bro,

A. Rodríguez

Virgil's picture

Well yes, the point was well made and it sounds like it is being used exactly the same in Romanian. Fascinating..and you are right. We shouldn't have this discussion at all, but when some just insist on doing these things, we have to bring it up.

Flakinde's picture

Oh sure . . . and I appreciate the way it's being brought up so far, at least from you guys.

Keep it up, in love and peace in the Lamb and King,

A. Rodríguez

daveedwards's picture

Witty and Scholarly! Sam you breath some truly rarified air!!!

I've often heard that it's easier for some Christians to befriend people outside the faith with whom they agree with only 2% than it is with other believers with whom they only disagree with 2%. I'm sure glad friendship does not require 100% agreement - this would be a very lonely place. And since our opinions change so often, are we only friends with those whose opinions change when ours do? The species would suffer extinction.

Didn't the Lord say "Let us reason together"? If God knows that that is the condition of His relationship to man, why do we require or expect our relationships with one another to be above that?

Good Text!

David William Edwards

BigD's picture

I've heard it said the Christians tend to shoot their wounded. And Barry Goldwater said that if you find someone that agrees with you 80% of the time, you have a good ally.

BigD

KingNeb's picture

Sam, yo mama's goofy.

thereignofchrist.com

flannery0's picture

Dude, you need professional help... but that was awesome.

flannery0's picture

I don't normally post here, but I just wanted to say Sam.....

Your article made me smile.

:)

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