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So That's How It Works

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By EWMI - Posted on 01 November 2005

by Albert Persohn
Say you have a $60,000 debt, are paying $2,000 a month rent and you owe another $1000 in various loan payments and other expenses. You can get a $160,000 mortgage in Israel for less than $400/month. Try getting that from Fannie Mae!Say you have a $60,000 debt, are paying $2,000 a month rent and you owe another $1000 in various loan payments and other expenses. You can get a $160,000 mortgage in Israel for less than $400/month. Try getting that from Fannie Mae!How exactly does the migration to Israel from America work? How is it funded? How do they find the immigrants? Here is a look under the hood at one of the "Signs of the Times"

Recruiting American Jews for Israel
Document Actions

Written by : Karin Friedemann, Joachim Martillo

The U.S. government funds Israel's ongoing program to remove the native population of Palestine, primarily Muslims and Christians, and supplant them with European-American Jewish colonists. Our tax dollars facilitate this ethnic cleansing and colonization of Occupied Palestine.
Why do seemingly normal, middle class Jewish American families take part in genocidal ethnic cleansing?

While some sick individuals might get a "thrill" from moving into property stolen from a family expelled from their home at gunpoint by the Israeli Defense Forces (IDF), our observations indicate that fun and profit serve as the primary motivation for relocating to Occupied Palestine.

The Israeli government offers American Jews subsidized mortgages at interest rates far lower than anything available to non-Jews. The subsidies are funded by Israeli bonds and underwritten by U.S. loan guarantees. The new mortgage holders are allowed to sink their credit card debts into Israeli mortgages valued in shekels, which are practically guaranteed to depreciate relative to the dollar. (See http://www.tehilla.com/homes).

While these "ethically challenged" American Jews stay in Israel, they are offered free Hebrew classes and living expenses for up to one year, paid by the Israeli government.
The cost of “doing business” with Israel is not only financial but moral.

The system creates suburban sprawl in the Holy Land, environmental devastation and mass homelessness of the original, rightful non-Jewish property owners. Most Palestinians under Israeli government control are not citizens and have no rights under Israeli law. Lands to which the Jewish Agency holds title are only leased or deeded under conditions that prevent transfer or use by non-Jews. Such discrimination would be illegal in the USA.

The Israeli government organizes the eviction (nishul) of Palestinians (usually uncompensated) through transfers of the land to specialized organizations like the Jewish Agency or the Israel Lands Authority (ILA), or Israel discovers military or security requirements that "necessitate" the transfer of property from Palestinians to the Army.

Eventually, the ILA develops the stolen land to create or expand Jews-Only settlements. The contractors employed by the ILA and its helper organizations build the homes and necessary infrastructure. They are typically connected to government and military officials and all profit tremendously from the US-financed plunder and ethnic cleansing of the Palestinian population.

Local travel agents often double as recruiters and real estate brokers for Israel. American Jews willing to relocate to stolen properties are not usually subject to credit checks when they seek an Israeli mortgage because the Israeli government subordinates its fiscal responsibility to the goal of overwhelming the Palestinians demographically.

Most American olim (immigrants) do not settle permanently in Occupied Palestine. They live there for a couple of years and then sell their house when the value goes up and come back debt free. They enjoy a nice vacation and make a profit as well.
Here's how it works:

Jewish aliyah (immigration to Israel) organizations engage in ongoing campaigns to recruit American Jews. They advertise in the Jewish media, through Jewish run travel agencies, and on college campuses.

Suppose you are an American Jew with $60,000 in educational or credit card debt. You might attend a class at the local Jewish Community Center or take part in some organized pro-Israel activity. At some point you will meet an official or semi-official shaliah (recruiter/emissary) who will explain the deal to you.

1. You can purchase a home, with no down payment, in a new settlement with a subsidized mortgage of up to $300,000. You will only pay interest (usually 3% or less) on half the mortgage. The other half is interest-free. You can buy a new house for $100,000— comparable to a $750,000 house in Brookline.

2. Say you have a $60,000 debt, are paying $2,000 a month rent and you owe another $1000 in various loan payments and other expenses. You can get a $160,000 mortgage in Israel for less than $400/month. Try getting that from Fannie Mae!

3. You and your family get free health insurance. Can't get that in America!

4. The Israeli government will pay your living expenses for at least 6 months. What a deal!

5. You get Israeli citizenship and all the rights the native population does not have.

6. Settlers in the more recently ethnically cleansed Occupied Territories get lower tax rates and other special benefits than those settling in "Israel Proper."

7. Qualified individuals may receive free plane tickets to Israel from organizations like Birthright Israel.

8. You can apply for an additional $5,000 - $25,000 stipend from organizations like Nefesh b'Nefesh (Soul to Soul - i.e. Jewish souls)

You should be able to live for one year without working, at which point your home has accrued in value as the settlement has expanded and amenities have improved. You should be able to sell your home at a profit, pay off your debt and return to the USA debt free. Once back home you will be strongly encouraged to contribute generously to your local Congressmen. Doesn't it sound like payback for the pleasant vacation and good fortune made possible by the U.S. government simply because you are Jewish?

http://bridgenews.org/news/americanjews

davo's picture

For those interested, you might find this 32min realplayer video presentation informative:

Palestine—Israel 101

davo

BigD's picture

Well, Brad, Yeah,

Great article and you are making some good points. I assume you have read Don Preston's phamplet on the topic (I forget the title) - he gives a good history of today's modern Jews of the area.

But on this particular thread, you're casting your pearls where you shouldn't...

BigD

BigD

BigD's picture

this got posted in the wrong spot - intended it to go at the end of the first "Someone set me straight" thread. D

BigD

NB9M's picture

No problem. You might be referring to Preston's little book on 1948 Israel. You know, Don is a great guy. Anybody that knows him, knows he isn't "anti-Semitic." But, he gets called that because he's a strong Christian man of God that wants truth. That's the way I see it.

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BigD's picture

I met him two or three summers ago at Virgil's get-together in Dayton, and got to talk to him for some time. One of the most interesting things about Don is that he rebuilds classic Mustangs, primarily from parts he buys over Ebay and internet sellers.

BigD

Islamaphobe's picture

So the conclusion to be drawn is, I suppose, that Israel should be returned to its rightful owners, the descendants of the people who attacked the Jews in Palestine in 1948? I suggest an alternative, namely that just as persecuted Christians have emigrated from the Middle East (including Palestine, Turkey, Iraq, Iran, and Egypt) to the United States and other predominantly Christian countries, then perhaps the unfortunate Muslims of Gaza and elsewhere in Palestine should emigrate to predominantly Muslim countries. Isn't some land now becoming available for settlement in Sudan?

SuperSoulFighter's picture

Having spent a little time in the Middle East myself, and having personally interacted with displaced Palestinians - my own formula for a speedy resolution (note the absence of the word "peaceful") would be for the U.S. to withdraw all aid to Israel - both economic and military - immediately.

When the U.S. steps out of the picture completely, the Israelis and Palestinians will be given "free rein" to resolve their issues properly, between themselves.

That's my current position, and I know there are many who agree with this view, at various levels, worldwide.

JM

Islamaphobe's picture

I do respect your on-the-scene experience and recognize that some of the actions taken by the Israeli government and various pressure groups within Israel merit legitimate criticism. From where I sit, however, I see little evidence that a majority of the Palestinians are prepared to repudiate the tactics of Hamas and other organizations that support terrorism and to accept a solution to the mess that recognizes Israel's right to exist and Israeli sovereignty over Jerusalem. Beyond that, I see little evidence among Palestinian Muslims (or any other other group of Muslims for that matter) that other peoples may have legitimate grievances against them. The seem always to believe that they are the victims and never the perpetrators of crimes against others. Barring evidence of change in Palestinian attitudes, I strongly favor a policy of supporting Israel against its enemies in the West Bank and Gaza.

I also believe, incidentally, that it is correct that the U.S. government provides considerable aid to the Palestinians either directly or indirectly through the UN and other organizations.

JL's picture

Phobe,

I thought CL addressed your concern. Without outside influence, all parties will bloody well work out their differences and settle the issues. First, they'll escalate their war. Eventually, one or more factions will surrender or be annilated and the fighting will be finished. Until they are allowed to do that, there will never be peace in the mideast.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

chrisliv's picture

Hey,

This article clearly describes the mechanics of an ethnic cleansing operation which is not only very brutal, but very insidious, too.

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

NB9M's picture

1. Who can demonstrate, conclusively, that they are descended from Jacob/Israel - with such surety that they can be afforded special rights and privileges?

2. Moreover, if today's dominate Askenazi Jews trace their lineage to Ashenaz through Gomer to Japheth, how can they claim to be "Semetic" (from Shem?)

3. As preterists, we believe that God not only keeps His promises, but he KEPT his promises. That means that the markers of physical Israel (for those that don't "spiritualize" it with Galations 3) must apply today: they MUST be great in number, be blessing the nations (with advances in science, education, agriculture, printing Bibles, sending out missionaries, etc.)

4. If those who bless the Jews will be blessed, and those who curses them will be cursed - have we been blessed or cursed since 1948?

5. If John tells us that the term "antichrist" can be applied to those who reject that Jesus was God incarnate, what does that make today's Jews?

6. Where are Christian leaders now on this? How long can the dispensational system prop up such obvious fraud and deceit?

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Virgil's picture

Heh..these are all excellent questions, but I do think that you run the risk of looking to calous or uncaring. The problem with the current situation is that we are all split between supporting a democrating U.S. ally (Israel) in the Middle East, and balancing the natural need for land and freedom for Palestinians. Really, it's a no-win situation.

EWMI's picture

Well now we have 3 democracies in the Middle East. Or do we? Well there is Israel a kind of democracy. And there is Afghanistan ... they had elections. And then there is that other country that has an elected government ... our newest success story ... Iraq.

chrisliv's picture

Oh,

Don't forget about the democratically elected president of Iran, not the one today, the one in 1953, which the CIA effected a coup against, so that the brutal dictatorship of the Shah could be reinstalled.

The people of Iran ultimately threw the Shah out and took US embassy personnel hostage in 1979. But up until that time Islamo-fascist Iranian troops trained on US military bases in places like San Diego.

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

EWMI's picture

That's right, I had forgotten that bit of history. In fact, one of the things that got me thinking about all of these things is that the US never suggested to Kuwait that it should adopt "democracy" in exchange for liberation.

JL's picture

Nor did we suggest that Iraq adopt our constitution. It's not like we're using it.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

chrisliv's picture

Yeah,

After the Islamic Revolution of Iran in 1979 (which overthrew the US supported dictatorship), US support of Saddam Hussein became a priority, and US corporations were permitted to supply him with weapons of mass destruction, since Wash DC had a sudden object of hatred: newly uncompliant Iran.

Saddam fell out of Wash DC favor when he invade Kuwait in 1990. Kuwait may have been slat-drilling for oil into Iraqi oilfields (a seeming valid complaint). And, an interesting point at that time, was that Osama bin Laden (a former CIA asset) offered Wash DC and Kuwait that he and his Afgan freedom fighters would come a drive Saddam out of Kuwait, because bin Laden hated the secular-fascist Saddam as much as anybody. But, of course, Wash DC refused Osama's offer, and decided a foreign invasion (Gulf War I) was more fitting. No-fly zones over most of Iraq and harsh US-led sanctions were imposed over Iraq for a dozen years, until Wash DC wanted another Gulf War, this time it included a full-blown US Occupation of Iraq.

So, yeah, the people who claim that the motivation factors for killing so many Iraqis and turning some of those cities into rubble are to promote "freedom" and "democracy" are either living a fantasy or don't have a good grasp of recent history.

US supported oppressive dictatorships, such as Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and others in the Middle East are well known. But, there's a lot of denial about those facts by statist-churchgoers.

As you may know, I don't think Leftist or Rightist Statists are that much different. They're both statist, and believe it is proper to do evil and use violence or coercion to take property and funds to do what the State deems as a greater "good" for the Public Welfare.

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

Jer's picture

Don't forget... Brad (NB9M) is a self-proclaimed "unabashed separatist."

NB9M's picture

There's another knee-jerk response :) Can someone demonstrate to me that the sovereign Creator of the Universe is NOT a "separatist?"

You know, if you can come to the understanding that I'm not a whacky, cammo-wearing, wild-eyed racist with a semi-auto strapped to my ankle, I'd like to worship with you folks up there! I've got a tremendous respect for your congregation and what you're doing.

Better yet, give me a call and tell me what my problem is (Roderick has my number.) I know you're capable of defending yourself; I've heard you do it well on your broadcasts.

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Jer's picture

Brad wrote, "You know, if you can come to the understanding that I'm not a whacky, cammo-wearing, wild-eyed racist with a semi-auto strapped to my ankle, I'd like to worship with you folks up there!"

Brad, in an email, wrote, "We’re pretty much all camo wearing, armed-to-the-teeth separatists down here."

Have you changed?

NB9M's picture

OK, you got me :)

But, did the stars LITERALLY fall from the heavens? Did the elements actually melt?

Come'on, I was speaking figuratively; tongue-in-cheek. I'm just a dumb programmer that loves the Truth as revealed in the Word of God. I'm not a faithful follower of brother John Birch, or have clandestine meetings with militia members having nervous twitches.

Hope that helps.

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JL's picture

Brad,

You are way out of line. Attaching "whacky," "cammo-wearing," "semi-auto strapped to my ankle," "John Birch," and "militia members" to "racist" doesn't help at all. CL's right. You sound like a bigot.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

NB9M's picture

Who said "racist?" Did I say that? Sounds like a Freudian slip there, JL.

Heads-up: there is a BIG difference between "racist" and "separatist."

Perhaps you're just poking fun...

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JL's picture

Brad,

Yes you said racist.

You said, "You know, if you can come to the understanding that I'm not a whacky, cammo-wearing, wild-eyed racist with a semi-auto strapped to my ankle, ..." and "I'm not a faithful follower of brother John Birch, or have clandestine meetings with militia members having nervous twitches."

Your implication is that whacky people, cammo-wearing people, wild-eyed people, people with CCW's, Birchers, and members of the militia are racists.

Are one of those fools who can't remember what disgusting things he just said? You called half the regulars here racists. I didn't slip.

Heads-up: I gaurantee your distinction between racism and separatism will be lost on me. I view either as a personal threat to my safety and the safety of my family.

JL

Blessings,

JL Vaughn
Beyond Creation Science

NB9M's picture

You're not making sense. I clearly said "I'm NOT a whacky, cammo-wearing....racist." Then, you appear to defend those people by saying I'm "implying" people having those atributes are racist, and openly stated that "half the regulars here" are those people.

You'll probably next say I called YOU a fool, and that I threatened you!

Sure wish folks like you would stick to the 6 questions I posted, rather than lashing out in anger because I had the nerve to ask them.

Besides, sounds like the "regulars" were thinking these things anyway - right? :)

I'm sensing alot of bitterness and hostility from you, and I'm not equipped or qualified to help you. I'm backing away slowly...

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BigD's picture

Whoa! JL's one of the good guys! You're just missing his point. If I were to say "I'm not a tea-totaling, Bible-thumping, right wing extremist" (I still haven't completely figured out what an "extremist" is) you could infer that I think everyone who doesn't drink, everyone who might be seen carrying a Bible anywhere other than their home or church, or anyone that sounds like a conservative, is an extremist. JL's taking issue with the parallel construction of a couple of your sentences; that is to say he takes issue with you lumping a bunch of classifications of people or stereotypes with the one of the hypocritical liberal's favorite perjoritaves: racist. Most of us on this site are considered to be "wacky" because we're preterists of some stripe, some are old earth creationsts, and most of us spend more time studying the Word in any given 48 hour period than your typical "Christians in the pew" do in a year. Some of us love to spend time in God's creation, we do it in camo so we can more easily acquire and enjoy the tasty animals he created for us, and we may wear some field worn camo around while doing chores and running errands on the weekends. Some of us do wear automatic pistols strapped to our ankles because we have concealed weapon carry permits (which have proven to reduce the crime rate significantly in counties that have such laws according to More Guns, Less Crime and other more recent studies). But you don't think any of us that I just described are automatically racists, do you?

I saw some mention of you being a separatist, what does that mean? Come out of this world and be ye separate like th Amish? Balkanization of the races and cultures in this country?

BigD

BigD

BigD's picture

Do the Illuminati overlords send messages through your TV?

BigD

NB9M's picture

No, I receive them through alien implants. Works great.

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Virgil's picture

Ahh...now some stuff makes more sense :)

NB9M's picture

Virgil, if it will save my boys from coming back from war in wooden boxes, I'll run the risk of appearing "callous or uncaring."

For His Kingdom,
-Brad

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Virgil's picture

Well now, you are linking the war in Iraq with Israel somehow, which sounds like some Michael Moore propaganda...come on :)

EWMI's picture

Joking aren't you??

The Israel Iraq connection is absolute:

President Bush went to war in Iraq "to secure our friend, Israel" and "everybody knows it,"

Ernest Hollings

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/whoiscongresslisteningto.html

Jamie's picture

Al, I am not buying it...just anti-american and anti-israel propaganda. Bush is not a dispensationalist and Israel is hardly dictating foreign policy.

EWMI's picture

Hi Jamie,

I just bumped into this and remembered your comment to me.

"I've never seen a President - I don't care who he is - stand up to Israel ... They always get what they want. The Israelis know what is going on all the time. I got to the point where I wouldn't write anything down. If the American people understood what a grip these people have got on our government, they would rise up in arms."

Admiral Thomas H. Moorer - 1984

EWMI's picture

Jamie, it is worth digging into this a bit. How have you come to your opinion?

I don't mean to be unkind to the President but your statement presupposes that he makes those decisions apart from his advisors. Some them are Dispy's but most of the Neocons are probably Jewish religious futurists. Dispy prophetic teaching runs very close to Jewish prophetic teaching on the subject of Iraq/Babylon.

chrisliv's picture

Well,

I don't it was only a Neocon or Mossad-led conspiracy. Wash DC has a recent history (WWII) of looking the other way when Hitler was mass murdering Jews, and then not really receiving Jewish refugees immediately with open arms, so to speak.

I think it had more to do with Saddam (a US ally at that time) misreading the go-ahead from Wash DC to invade Kuwait in 1990, and then later when Saddam was planning to denominate all oil transactions in currency besides US Dollars, were probably the greater motivating factors for the fradulent pretenses for the US invasion and occupation of an Iraq which was made largely defensless by a decade of harsh US-led sanctions and UN disarmament of heavy weapons.

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

NB9M's picture

Virgil, don't quote me; quote folks like Philip Zelikow (a Jew and a rabbi, serving on President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board):

"Why would Iraq attack America or use nuclear weapons against us? I'll tell you what I think the real threat (is) and actually has been since 1990 -- it's the threat against Israel.."

Ditto for Brent Scowcroft (CIA) or Nathan Brown (professor of political science at George Washington University.) You know, as well as I, that I could fill pages with quotes like this. lots of people with IQs above room temperature can figure it out.

Is the problem the possiblity that I may be right - or the fact that I'm bring this up at all? If it's the later, we're simply wasting each other's time.

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Virgil's picture

Righ, and I never said I swallow up everything that comes out of the Bush administration. Israel has been lobbying Bush for years to attack Iran, but he said no. Perhaps it's time for Israel soldiers to risk their own lives and bomb Iran's nuclear ambitions. If Iran is a threat to Israel, then Israel needs to do something about it.

BigD's picture

Not just Israel has been lobbying Bush, but his own advisors. Abrams, Pearle and Wolfowitz have been pushing what I like to call their "domino plan" for the middle east since '95 or '96 through various articles and think-tanks. Baffles me as to how Bush ended up with that cabal of advisors!

BigD

BigD

NB9M's picture

Allowing for the possibility of Mr. Livingston to accuse me of being "anti-Semitic" for pointing this out: Of course, Abrams, Perle and Wolofowitz are Zionist Jews. So is our new head of Homeland Security and the bulk of his cabinet on foreign policy.

Even though we have the AIPAC scandal, the capture of Mossad agents posing as Al-Queda in Palestine, and the selling of our technology to China via Israel, our $10.4 daily infusion of funds continue unabated to Israel.

I simply believe it's time we spoke out.

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chrisliv's picture

OK,

Would you really feel better if their pedigree were undeniably pure?

Would that justify what is happening there?

And crime is a crime, regardless of pedigrees.

The Israelis are doing something similar to what Adolf Hitler was doing, just not to quite the same degree or pace. The effects are the same though: removal of a certain population of "undesirables".

Jews today are no more "antichrist" than are unbelieving Eskimos. Do you really think an antichrist gene is carried along with Jewish DNA (whatever the purity). Your question implies anti-Semitism (whatever the purity).

There's no fraud and deceit about what's happening. It's right out in the open. Most Israelis don't claim to be Israelites who are reestablishing Judaism. But, even if they did, it wouldn't have anything to do with the Bible. As Preterists, we know that much.

Most Israelis consider the settlers to be dangerous fanatics. But, of course, they'll take the Foreign Aid, the socialized "free" medicine, the subsidized housing, etc.

Sure, they'll take the money.

The real fraud and deceit is more with the so-called Christian leaders today. Their state-incorporated charter and federal 501 (c) 3 status helps to cloud their perception and judgment. Of course, a non incorporated group is no guarantee of clarity, either.

I would say, stop looking to "Christian leaders" for your direction. Be a leader yourself.

Be the change you want to see.

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

NB9M's picture

Let me say this as gently as I can: I am not "anti-Semite." Why? Because I'm semite, and I don't "hate" anybody. Having dispensed with the common response to having honestly addressed this issue, let's continue.

1. I'm not making the claim of genetic purity - they are (and using the claim as theological extortion.) Aren't you accusing the wrong person?

2. Did you notice that you called them "Israelis" (and not Israelites?) Why?

3. If eskimos, being antichrist, were to cast themselves as the "Chosen People" and exploit the ingorance of the populace for personal gain, I would feel the same.

4. The fraud and deceit, agreed, comes as much from the pulpits our our churches as much as modern jewry. Minimally, this would not be happening if we were being "salt and light."

5. By studying, writing on and addressing this issue (as a deacon) to the eldership of my church (and having to leave because of it) I feel I'm willing to be a leader. I've lost family and friends over this issue. But perhaps, Mr. Livingstone, when I grow up, I can be as good a leader as you.

Truly, it gets tiresome to have the predictable, knee-jerk "your question implies anti-Semitism" leveled. I wonder what the Pharisees accused Jesus of when He addressed them: "For ye have the devil as father, and ye wish to carry out your father's desire. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for the truth is not in him. When he tells lies he is but speaking his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies." (John 8: 44)

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chrisliv's picture

Well, Brad,

Your statement, in the form of a question, did sound anti-Semetic, to me, regardless of whether you are Semitic, or not. And, why do you place quotes on the the word "hate"? I never used that word. You're quoting something I never stated. So, please don't do that anymore.

Sure, I called them Israelis. That's what they prefer to call themselves. I respect that. I'd call them Israelites, too, if that's what they preferred. As Preterists, we are not superstitious about sylablles or semantics. Are we?

You are whining that Israelis are not genetically pure. Again, would you really feel better if their pedigree were were more geneologically sound?

Or, are you somehow jealous, believing that you are somehow of the true Israelite decendants or supposedly Lost Tribes now believed to be Germanic peoples? Are you influenced by the Christian Identity movement?

If you are, I can certainly accept that. I won't "hate" you. I will only believe you to be badly mistaken.

I think were on the same page about wanting to see positive change in the society of the human species by the Body of Christ shining as the Salt and Light in a very Dark World System.

Although, when you hear someone suggest that your comments imply anti-Semitism, there's need to get too defensive and accuse your critics of "predictable, knee-jerk" responses.

It may be that you are in denial, and really are a low-grade, chronic anti-Semite, thinking that your sentiment is valid because of your impurity claims against Jewish DNA.

Of course, Jewish pedigrees are certainly not as pure as they were before all the geneology records were destroyed with the Temple in 70 AD.

You claim to be Semetic!

"Bring forth therefore fruits meet for repentance: And think not to say within yourselves, We have Abraham to our father: for I say unto you, that God is able of these stones to raise up children unto Abraham." Mat.3:8 & 9

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

NB9M's picture

I've already addressed most of your responses, though some are best left to specualation. It seems you're intent on focusing on WHY I said what I said - rather than effectively addressing the potential validity of it.

Again, I'm not bringing up DNA - THEY are. You haven't touched that. Why is it that it is OK for today's Jew to claim descendancy from Israel - with no proof - but absurd for another people to make the same claim (in spite of biblical, historical, anthropological and archaeological evidences supporting them?)

This very odd double-standard demands refuting.

Mr. Livingston, if you come out of the gate using stock responses, making implicit accusations and challenging my role as a Christian leader having no knowledge of me at all, you're not exhibiting the same even-handed "respect" to me that you seem to want us all to observe.

Finally, regarding Matthew 3:8F - to whom is Jesus talking? Israelites who have believed that their genetic ties to Jacob/Israel alone were sufficient for their salvation. It's the same issue that Paul was dealing with in Galations 3. In both cases, it's clear that their genetic heritage alone is not sufficient for their deliverance. WHAT IS YOUR POINT?

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chrisliv's picture

Well, Brad,

In the title of your post you asked for "Some To Set You Straight."

Please don't get upset when your request is granted.

Claims of "stock responses," "accusations" and "challenging your your role as a Christian leader" are unfounded and show a loss of objectivty by you. I don't know if you are considered to be a leader by others or are now self-proclaiming yourself to be one. From your original post and complaint about "Where are Christian leaders now on this?", I just figured you didn't consider yourself to be a "Christian leader" since you were accusing them of inaction.

It was John the Baptist speaking at Mat.3:8 & 9, not Jesus. And the POINT both he and I were making, and you missed, was that "genetic heritage alone" or in part, counts for NOTHING, big guy!

Please don't mistakenly believe that I have any hostility toward you for any reason. I think this is just a typical dialogue and exchange of ideas.

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

NB9M's picture

For the very same reason you thought I was out-of-line for using the word "hate", I think your presumption that I believe that DNA matters is out-of-line. It is clear that DNA was always an issue with Israel (through whom the nations would be blessed.) However, both in the Old and New Covenants, "strangers and foreigners" could join with Yahweh, the god of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. What I'm saying is this: one does not have to spiritualize Israel to facilitate the inclusion of all peoples into Salvation.

We're not going to connect on much, Mr. Livingston. As can be demonstrated by the frustration of preterist leaders like Don Preston and Sam Frost, who both have expressed their concerns, there are serious problems with our Christian leaders. Leaders can - and do - exhibit frustration with their cohorts. Whether or not I'm a Christian leader in the eyes of Mr. Livingston is inconsequential; I would still maintain there are problems.

Accusing one of being anti-Semitic, the accusations regarding my leadership don't go far in establishing your lack of hostility. If this is "typical dialogue", count me out.

What I'd like to be "set straight" on are my original questions; not your perceptions about me and why I'm asking the questions.

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BigBaldBrother's picture

Well I can't answer your questions but i do believe that mr C.Livingstone was a bit antagonisticin his responses

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Duncan a.k.a. the Big Bald Brother
Australia.
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chrisliv's picture

Yeah,

Again, I responded to your original questions very seriously, yet you cried "knee-jerk response" and got over-defensive.

And, yes, one of your comments seemed to clearly imply anti-Semetism, as I mentioned. It is possible that you are mildly anti-Semetic and in denial about it, since you lash out at me for suggesting as much. That's why they call it denial, because you don't realize you're in it even as you claim not to be an anti-Semite, alcoholic, drug addict, etc.

If you have empathy for guys like Don Preston and Sam Frost, why not reach ot to them directly, instead of wailing about the suppposed "frustration" of Preterist leaders? If they really are frustrated leaders, I'm sure it's self-inflicted. But, from the way I've heard Don Preston speak on the John Anderson radio programs, he seems very much at ease and enjoying himself as he makes masterful demonstrations from scripture, history, and the English language on why the Preterist position is, largely, a biblical position.

You've been "set straight" as you asked. But, maybe that's not what you were really trying to accomplish with your original 6-point question-complaints.

I won't bug you any more in this thread, though.

Peace to you,
C. Livingstone

Sam's picture

OK...I'm converting to Judaism now

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