You are hereRevelation, Trumpets and Millennial Problems

Revelation, Trumpets and Millennial Problems

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By dkpret - Posted on 09 November 2003

by Don Preston
One would think, by reading the literature, and listening to the “prophecy experts” that Revelation is a veritable bastion for the defense as well as promulgation of the dispensationalism. Every dispensationalist quotes and alludes to the Apocalypse with confidence, affirming that we are today living in the days of fulfillment, or that the fulfillment is just around the corner, as soon as the Rapture occurs. What seems to have escaped the notice of so many Biblical students is that Revelation is a total refutation of the dispensational paradigm.One would think, by reading the literature, and listening to the “prophecy experts” that Revelation is a veritable bastion for the defense as well as promulgation of the dispensationalism. Every dispensationalist quotes and alludes to the Apocalypse with confidence, affirming that we are today living in the days of fulfillment, or that the fulfillment is just around the corner, as soon as the Rapture occurs. What seems to have escaped the notice of so many Biblical students is that Revelation is a total refutation of the dispensational paradigm.Now, clearly, in a short article, we cannot delineate all of the problems posed by a careful examination of Revelation. However, we can point out a few major exegetical problems with their claims when compared with the text. To that we proceed.

It is vitally important to understand that the millennial view of Revelation is that the visions flow consecutively, not concurrently. The visions are not repeated visions of the same events in different form with different emphasis. In other words, the millennial view is that beginning with the Rapture, which they claim is envisioned in chapter 4:1f, the book unfolds to reveal the events of the seven year Tribulation period. The 7 Seals open the Tribulation period, and as the 7th Seal is fulfilled, it reveals the 7 Trumpets, to be fulfilled in the middle of the Tribulation. When the 7th Trumpet sounds, it reveals the 7 Vials the closing period of the 7 year Tribulation.

With this before us, we want to explore the implications of the millennial doctrine in regard to two or three areas: 1.) The predictions about Jerusalem, 2.) The predictions about the vindication of the martyrs, 3.) The predictions about the resurrection, 4.) The predictions about the kingdom. We will demonstrate that the millennial insistence on the consecutive nature of the visions of Revelation actually serves to destroy the millennial construct.

THE PREDICTIONS ABOUT JERUSALEM

In a recent two day public debate with Thomas Ice and Mark Hitchcock, Hitchcock affirmed that Revelation 11-16:18 is concerned with the yet future fate of Jerusalem during the Tribulation period. Well, if this is true, then Jerusalem of the Tribulation period is not the place to be!
Consider that under the 7th Trumpet the “great city” is destroyed by an earthquake (11:13f), and that in chapter 16:17-18, the “great city” is once again destroyed by a great earthquake! Remember that according to the millennialist the time of the Trumpets in chapter 11 is in the middle of the Tribulation while the time of the Vials of chapter 16 is at the end. Now, that is only a 3 ½ year period of separation, but to the millennialists it is a vital distinction. So, according to the millennialists, Jerusalem will be destroyed by massive earthquake, twice, within a 3 ½ year period of time. But this is not the end of Jerusalem’s woes during the proposed Tribulation.
It is also critical to understand that in Revelation 11 and 16 Jerusalem is the focus of God’s wrath. Now, this is in direct conflict with the millennialists who believe that during the Tribulation period Jerusalem is the “innocent victim” of the anti-christ’s wrath. But this is not the picture presented by the Apocalypse.

In Revelation 11 Jerusalem is depicted as the city guilty of rejoicing over the martyrdom of the two witnesses, and consequently, judgment comes. In Revelation 16:6, judgment on the great city is justified, “for they have shed the blood of saints and prophets.” Thus, the judgment of Jerusalem, that great city, per Ice and Hitchcock, is because of Jerusalem’s culpability for shedding the blood of the saints. And, according to the consecutive vision theory, Jerusalem must be judged for her blood guilt in killing the saints at the sounding of the 7th Trump, and then judged, once again for killing the saints, at the pouring out of the 3rd Vial! Is there place for this in the millennial view? No. This is a major problem!

THE VINDICATION OF THE MARTYRS

A great deal could be said about this theme in Revelation, but space will not permit. What can be said is that Revelation is deeply concerned with the vindication of the martyrs of God. Scene after scene is focused on their long suffering plight, and God’s promise to vindicate them. One thing that needs to be noted is that if “the great city” of Revelation 11-16, is different than the “great city” Babylon in Revelation 16:9- chapter 18, then one can only conclude that two great cities were, or are to be, the focus of God’s eschatological vengeance on the slayers of his saints. This is patently wrong, for Jesus undeniably posited one entity, and one entity alone as guilty of killing the saints, “It is not possible that a prophet perish outside of Jerusalem” (Luke 13:31-33). Let’s take a closer look at the vindication of the martyrs in Revelation.

In Revelation 6, the time of the 7 Seals, the souls of the martyrs cry for vindication and judgment against their persecutors (v. 9f). The answer to their prayer is under the 6th Seal, the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord. Per the millennial paradigm therefore, the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord, in vindication of the martyrs and judgment of the persecutors, should occur at the end of the first 3 ½ year period of the Tribulation! Does the millennial paradigm have a place for the Great Day of the Lord in the middle of the Tribulation period? No. There is no place for the Day of the Lord in the middle of the Tribulation. But this is not the only problem.
The Great Day of the Lord is the time for the vindication of the martyrs and judgment of their persecutors. This is under the 6th Seal, in the middle of the Tribulation per the millennial view. However, in Revelation 11 we also find the time of the vindication of the martyrs, at the judgment of Jerusalem. It is at this time that the city that killed Lord is judged, “Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead that they should be judged, and that you should reward Your servants the prophets and saints.” (Revelation 11:18).

Thus, so far, we have two vindications of the martyrs and two judgments of the persecutors. One at the 6th Seal, and the other at the sound of the 7th Trumpet. A valid question at this point would be, who are the persecutors in Revelation 6? And, what is the context for their vindication at the Great Day of the Lord? In other words, in Revelation 11, the time of vindication and judgment is clearly set within the context of the judgment of the city “where the Lord was slain.”
But, the judgment of chapter 6 is not as clearly delineated. Furthermore, this cannot be the resurrection of saints killed during the Great Tribulation or the Old Testament saints since, according to millennialists those saints are not raised until the Second Coming, at the end of the 7 year Tribulation. Further, this judgment cannot be the time of the vindication and resurrection of the church saints, since the martyred church saints are resurrected at the Rapture, 3/12 years before the scene of Revelation 6.

So, just who is it that is being vindicated in this scene? It can’t be the church martyrs because the millennialists insist that the 7 year Tribulation has nothing to do with the church. It cannot be the Old Testament martyrs or the Tribulation martyrs because they are not vindicated/resurrected until the end of the 7 year period. Yet, undeniably, if one takes the millennial view of things, there has to be a coming of the Lord, the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord, at the 3 1/3 mark of the Tribulation. But this is not all the problem.

Not only does Revelation 6 depict a time of the vindication of the martyrs, Revelation 11 does as well, as just seen. However, Revelation 16 also depicts the time of the vindication of the martyrs at the pouring out of the Vials. Revelation 16:4, the time of the 3rd Vial or Bowl, anticipates the time of the judgment of those who killed the prophets and saints, “You are righteous, O Lord, the One who is and who was, and who is to be, because You have judged these things, for they have shed the blood of saints and prophets and you have given them blood to drink” (16:4). Then, in verse 17f, the judgment actually falls on the persecuting city, Jerusalem.

In other words, Revelation depicts three distinct times for the vindication of the martyrs (if one accepts the consecutive view of the visions)! What is more, two of those times (Revelation 11 and 16), are positively identified as the judgment of Jerusalem, if one accepts the delineation between “the great city” (i.e. Jerusalem) and Babylon, made by Hitchcock/ Ice and the dispensationalists. Do the dispensationalists believe that Jerusalem will be judged, twice, during the Tribulation period, for shedding the blood of the martyrs of God? Unequivocally not!

To be sure, the millennialists do believe Jerusalem is destroyed during the Tribulation period, but it is not for persecuting the saints. It is at the hands of the anti-christ. (Fast, 111; Answers, 192). In other words, per the millennialists, Jerusalem is innocently and unjustly persecuted by the anti-christ. However, the problem is that in Revelation 11 and 16 the judgment on “the great city” Jerusalem is distinctly stated to be for shedding the blood of the saints and the prophets, including Jesus! Per Revelation “the great city” is anything but innocent, or unjustly persecuted. Her judgment comes from God. This flies in the face of everything the millennialists believes.

But, I mentioned that there are three vindications of the martyrs, and judgments of the persecutors, and so there are. We have the judgment in Revelation 6, that in Revelation 11, and then in Revelation 16. That is, we have a vindication of the martyrs under the Seals, a vindication under the Trumpets, and a vindication under the Vials! Per the consecutive view of the visions, as posited by the millennialists, this has to be three distinct vindications, and three distinct judgments of the persecutors! Let me reiterate and re-emphasize, the millennialists have no place in their construct for any of this! Yet, to take the consecutive view of Revelation and then accept what the text says, demands that there are three distinct times of vindication and judgment of the martyrs and their persecutors.

This raises the question about the identity of the persecuting power as identified in Revelation. Ice and Hitchcock admit that Revelation 11-16 is speaking of Jerusalem. Well, that means that Revelation 11-16 posit Jerusalem as the persecutor of God’s saints during the Tribulation period! The millennialists do not believe that is true!

If Revelation 11-16 posits Jerusalem as the persecuting power, who is the persecuting power behind the scenes of the 5th Seal in chapter 6? And, who is behind the persecution in chapter 20?
The bottom line is that the theme of the vindication of the martyrs as found in Revelation is an insurmountable problem for the millennialists. Revelation identifies Jerusalem as the persecutor of the saints, yet the millennialists do not believe that is true. Revelation depicts the judgment of the persecutors at the middle of the Tribulation period, at the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord, yet the millennialists do not believe in that. Revelation posits three different vindications of the martyrs during the Tribulation period, yet the millennialists have no place for this in their view. The theme of the vindication of the martyrs and judgment of the persecutors is very destructive of the millennial doctrine.

THE RESURRECTION AND THE REVELATION

To say the least, the millennial view of resurrection is confused and confusing. Ice says there are several stages of the resurrection. There is, “the resurrection of the church at the rapture,” the resurrection of Old Testament saints and the Tribulation martyrs at the Second Coming, the resurrection of all millennial believers after the millennium, and finally, the resurrection of the unredeemed at the end of the millennium. (Fast, 166+) Unfortunately for the dispensationalist, this is not supported by the text of Revelation.

Remember that the martyrs of Revelation 6 would be vindicated and judged at the Great and Terrible Day of the Lord (6:12f). This is the resurrection! For clarity, it should be noted that Ice (or whoever truly wrote Charting), says that the prayer of the martyrs (Revelation 6:9f), is not actually fulfilled until Revelation 16:4-7 (Charting, 60). This is a blatant contradiction of their view, however. And worse, it violates Revelation 6;12f. The Day of the Lord that occurs under the 6th Seal is the fulfillment of their prayer! This is a major problem for the dispensationalist! Per the text, one is forced, if you accept the consecutive vision theory, to posit the Day of the Lord in the middle of the Tribulation period. Yet, there is no such tenet in millennialism.

Furthermore, at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet–and remember that this is the time of the judgment of the city “where the Lord was slain,” it is announced, “Your wrath has come, and the time of the dead that they should be judged and that you should reward your servants the prophets.” This is the fulfillment of Daniel 12, the time when the prophets would be rewarded, i.e. resurrection (Daniel 12:2, 9-13). In other words, the resurrection of the Old Testament saints is at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. But the sounding of the 7th Trumpet is in the middle of the Tribulation period, per the millennialists. Again, this is problematic for the dispensationalists since, as you can see above, they posit the resurrection of the Old Testament saints at the Second Coming. Revelation 11 posits the resurrection of the Old Testament saints 3 ½ years before the Second Coming!

There is another problem with the sounding of the trumpets and the millennial paradigm that seems to have escaped the notice of most commentators. At least I have not found any that are discussing the issue. The problem is for the pre-tribulational dispensationalist.

In Charting the End Times and his other books, Ice says that 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 speaks of the rapture. However, 1 Corinthians says that the resurrection would occur at “the last trump.” Now, Biblically, there are only 7 eschatological Trumpets, and they are found in Revelation. But when do the 7 Trumpets of Revelation sound? In the middle of the Tribulation period according to the millennial paradigm! And, not only does the 7th Trump sound in the middle of the Tribulation period, it is at the 7th Trumpet that the resurrection occurs, in total agreement with 1 Corinthians 15.

What this means is that Tim LaHaye and Thomas Ice, or whoever wrote the books with their names on them, are actually, of scriptural and logical necessity, mid-tribulational rapturists!
In logical form the argument would appear like this in sortees form:

Major Premise: The resurrection at the rapture would occur at the last trump (1 Corinthians 15:51-53; Ice/LaHaye, or whoever actually wrote their books)

Minor Premise: But the last trump is the 7th Trump (Revelation 11:17f)
Conclusion: Therefore, the resurrection at the rapture would occur at the 7th Trump.

Major Premise: The resurrection at the rapture would occur at the 7th Trump (Revelation 11)
Minor Premise: But the 7th Trump sounds in the middle of the Tribulation period (Ice/LaHaye, or whoever actually wrote their books.)
Conclusion: Therefore, the resurrection at the rapture occurs in the middle of the Tribulation period.

The conclusions are inescapable. If Ice and LaHaye really believe that 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 is the rapture, then unless they can prove that the “last trump” is somehow different than the 7th Trump of Revelation (even though resurrection occurs at the 7th Trump), they cannot avoid the reality that the rapture is in the middle of the tribulation! Perhaps they should rename their organization “The Mid-Trib Research Center.”
It is obvious that the Trumpets sound nothing but trouble for the millennial paradigm.

THE KINGDOM AND REVELATION

Not only does the doctrine of the resurrection pose severe problems for the millennial view of Revelation, but their doctrine of the kingdom is virtually destroyed by their own construct of the consecutive visions.
According to the consecutive vision tenet, the kingdom should not come until the pouring out of the 7th Vial. The Seals and Trumpets are preceding events that only prepare for the 7 Vials, and the ultimate establishment of the kingdom at the Second Coming in chapter 19. The problem is, according to Revelation, the kingdom is established in the middle of the Tribulation period!

Revelation 11 says that when the 7th Trump sounded: “And there were loud voices in heaven saying, ‘The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever!’” (Revelation 11;15). In other words, the kingdom is established at the sounding of the 7th Trump. But the 7th Trump is in the middle of the Tribulation period according to Ice and LaHaye’s books!
The fact that Revelation 11 posits the kingdom at the 7th Trump totally destroys the millennial view of the Second Coming. It destroys their view of the 70 Weeks of Daniel 9. It destroys their view of the rapture. It destroys their view of the resurrection.

Notice that Revelation 11 does not announce the future establishment of the kingdom under the 7th Vial. It does not announce any eschatological future events at all. It declares fulfillment and consummation under the 7th Trumpet, and that being true, the millennial idea of consecutive visions is falsified.

SUMMARY

This brief article has introduced and examined only a fraction of the problems that Revelation poses for the millennial paradigm. However, the issues examined here are vitally important to the millennial view of things, yet, as the reader can see, destructive to that paradigm. You simply cannot affirm that the 7 Seals are fulfilled, then the Trumpets are fulfilled, and then, finally, the 7 Vials are fulfilled without demanding, logically, that the events of the 7 Trumps are fulfilled in the middle of the Tribulation period. However, that being true, it follows inescapably, that the rapture, the resurrection, and the kingdom all occur in the middle of the Tribulation period. And that means that the pre-tribulational view is totally falsified by their own statements and placement of these events! I say again, the sounding of the Trumpets sound nothing but trouble for dispensationalism!

Footnotes:

i. See for confirmation of what we are saying, Tim LaHaye and Thomas Ice, Charting the End Times (Eugene, Ore, Harvest House, 2002)59f. Also, Mark Hitchcock 101 Questions about the End Times (Sisters, Ore, Multnomah, 2001)164

ii. The debate was held in Tampa, Fl at Christ’s Covenant church, October 17-18, 2003. Disputants were John Anderson of Lighthouse World Ministries and myself, against Thomas Ice of the Pre-Trib Research Center, and Mark Hitchcock. Tapes of the debate are available from our website.

iii. In the debate just mentioned, I pointed out that Thomas Ice claims that Matthew 10 and Matthew 24 supposedly describes “believing Israel” under persecution at the hands of the Gentiles, not under judgment from God. This is also his view of Revelation. This is patently false however. As I noted in the debate, Matthew 10 posits Christ’s disciples being chased through the cities of Israel, and in Matthew and parallels, the disciples are depicted as being brought before “Sanhedrins and synagogues.” That is Jewish persecution! Furthermore, it should be noted that even if Ice were right to say that Matthew 10 and Matthew 24 speaks of Gentile persecution, this would prove that Israel was being judged by Jehovah! Biblically, any time Jehovah allowed Israel to be attacked by the Gentiles was when she had sinned and was being chastised. See the Law of Blessing and Cursing (Deuteronomy 28-30.) For Ice to say that Gentile persecution of Israel does not constitute judgment from God is specious at best.

iv. At the aforementioned debate, Mark Hitchcock tried to negate the force of Luke 13 by listing where the apostles died according to history. This is really a desperate act to obviate Jesus’ declaration. Further, it fails to honor the fact that wherever the saints were persecuted, in most cases, it was the Jews, empowered by the leadership of Jerusalem, leading the way and inciting that persecution (e.g. Acts 22 and the case of Paul).

v. Per the millennialists, the entire 7 year period between the rapture and the Second Coming is called the Tribulation period, while only the last 3 ½ year period is technically the Great Tribulation. (Answers, 182). This presents some rather sticky questions such as, who are the martyrs of the first part of the Tribulation period, and who killed them? The first 3 ½ years of the Tribulation is a time of peace, per the millennial construct, yet, Revelation depicts Jerusalem as guilty of killing the saints during the Seals and Trumpets. That is not a pretty picture, and it is not consistent with the millennial view of things.

vi. Thomas Ice and Timothy Demy, Fast Facts on Bible Prophecy, (Eugene, Ore., 1997)167

vii. Technically, there has to be four vindications of the martyrs and judgments of the persecutors, per the millennial view. They believe that Revelation 20 is a totally different scene/vision than that of the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials. However, Revelation 20 is about the vindication of those slain for the word of God (20:1-4) who rule until their persecutors are judged at the end of the “millennium.” Thus, this demands four vindications of the martyrs and four judgments of the persecutors!

viii. Even though we say that Ice believes in this schema of resurrection, in truth we do not know if he does or not. In the aforementioned debate, Ice accused me of misrepresenting him and what he actually believes, even though in my charts and references to his works I gave page numbers and direct quotes. Ice responded by saying that he very often does not agree with “a great deal” of what is in the books he co-authors (specifically he mentioned Charting the End Times, in this regard). So, for accuracy sake, let us say that the book co-authored by Thomas Ice posits this schema of resurrection. Whether Thomas Ice personally believes in that resurrection program is another matter.

ix. Naturally, this is true only if you grant the millennial view of things, which we clearly do not accept.

x. Keep in mind however, that Ice has told me that there are several things in the books with his name on them that he “strongly disagrees with.” So, while Ice certainly claims to be a pre-tribulational rapture advocate, he has his name on books that espouses positions that are in fact, of logical necessity, mid-tribulational! The other books with Ice’s name on them, listing 1 Corinthians 15:51-53 as a rapture text, are Fast Facts on Bible Prophecy, (186+) and Prophecy Watch (111)

Roger's picture

There are several problems with this article. I will talk about 3 of them.

1. To relate the last trump of 1 Corinthians to the trumpets in Revelation is a mistake. I'm not sure who makes this connection but its not made by any dispensational leaders that I follow. When 1 Corinthians was written Revelation had not yet been written so the Corinthians could not have understood a connection that did not yet exist! I believe (along with Dr Fruchtenbaum) that the last trump in 1 Cor. is the last trump in the Jewish feast of Rosh Hashana which the 1st century Christians of that day would have understood. Thus, Mr. Preston's tying the rapture to the trumpets in Revelation falls apart. And the timing of the rapture is not a problem.

2. The seals in Revelation are not chronologically before the trumpets and seals even though there are many Disp leaders who teach this. Keep in mind that when the seals are being described, they are seals on the book that has not yet been opened - that's why they are called "seals." The seals are an overview/summary of what is contained in the book - death, famine, etc and the 6th seal is a summary of the final events of the book including the Second Coming. Thus, trying to relate the 6th seal chronologically to the other events in Revelation is also a mistake.

3. Finally, the normal dispensational view is not that Jerusalem is an "innocent" victim as Mr Preston says. That is a straw man argument. The common dispensational view is that God is also judging the Jewish nation in preparation for saving a believing remnant at the end of the tribulation. This is consistent with Matthew 24 as well as Zechariah 13:8-9 which indicates that 2/3 will die and 1/3 will be the surviving/believing remnant which will enter the millennium.

If you understand these three things then much of what is contained in this article falls by the wayside and can easily be dismissed as another failed attempt to attack a sound, consistent theology.

Roger

dkpret's picture

Roger, I appreciate your input, although it is wrong, in my view.
1.) You state that millennialists do not associate the trump of Corinthians with that of Revelation. This is part of the problem, if so. The fact is that Biblically, especially in Revelation, the Trumpet is associated with Resurrection. 1 Corinthians is about resurrection and Revelation 11--the Seventh or last trump--is about Resurrection. Further, the resurrection of Corinth is clearly of the righteous, and the resurrection of Revelation 11 is of the righteous. So, to delineate between the texts is specious at best. You have to create a doctrine of two last trumpts, at two different resurrections.
2.)While you say that the Seals are not chronologically prior to the Trumps and Vials, in fact LaHaye, Ice and Hitch*****, in their works, do posit the seals prior to the Trumpets and Vials. See Charting the End Times, page 59f. There is no question about it.
Furthermore, even to posit that the seals simply introduce the events of the Trumps and the Vials, does not solve the problem. You still have two different judgments/destructions of Jerusalem in that view. Jerusalem is judged for killing the saints, under the 7th Trump, in chapter 11, and then again in chapter 16 under the 7th Vial. So the problem still exists. There is no room for this in the millennial paradigm.
3.) As to Jerusalem being an "innocent victim" during the period of Revelation, i.e. the Tribulation. In End Times Controversy, Ice clearly says that the Tribulation period, "does not speak of Israel under God's judgment, but of Israel under threat from the Gentile nations and God's rescue of the Jewish people." (p. 161)
The fact is that the Great Tribulation, as well as the Abomination, could not be viewed as anything other than a judgment from God. See Deuteronomy 32:30. The only way any of God's enemies ever managed to triumph over them, and defile the land or city, was when they were under judgment.
It is valid to ask whether God was going to deliver Israel from Himself. He was to bring the Abomination and Tribulation because of Israel's sin. Was He then going to deliver her from Himself?
One issue not addressed at all by you, Roger, is the reason for God's judgment of Israel in Revelation, and that is for persecuting the saints. This is a critical issue that is ignored by every millennialist I have ever encountered. This is THE reason for the judgment on Jerusalem in Revelation. Yet, the millennialists--and most other commentators--ignore it. Why? This is critical. It cannot be ignored without doing harm to proper hermeneutic.
Thanks again for your input. I gotta go and buy an old Mustang!! :-)
Don K

Roger's picture

Don,

I hope you like your Mustang. I only wish the brakes worked better on vintage cars. I don't like pumping the old style brakes.

You stated>> You state that millennialists do not associate the trump of Corinthians with that of Revelation. This is part of the problem, if so.

me>> If you look at Leviticus 23 you see the description of the seven feasts (appointed times in the Hebrew) that Israel was commanded to observe. The first four of these paralleled events in redemptive history and they occurred on the same day as the event that they were portraying. (Passover-Crucifixion, unleavened bread-purging of sin, firstfruits-resurrection, shavous-pentecost). Paul alludes to these in his writings on occassion. These feasts all occurred in the Springtime. 23:22 then alludes to the alien/gentile church age which the book of Ruth typified. The final 3 Jewish feasts do not occur until the fall season which typifies a time when God again deals with Israel in the future. The final 3 feasts then are types of what will occur in the future - Rosh Hashana=feast of trumpets, Yom Kippur=atonement/repentence, Sukkos/booths=millennium. The next event on this calendar is the feast of trumpets. This is what Paul was alluding to in Corinthians which is also where he alluded to the other jewish feast types that I mentioned (1 Cor 5:7-8, 1 Cor 15:20). In the latter days we have the last trumpet that occurs in Rosh Hashana, Jewish national repentence in Yom Kippur, and then finally Zechariah 14:16 says that God commands everyone on earth to celebrate sukkos/booths during the millennium which completes the entire Jewish feast cycle. The last trump has a Jewish connection and the people in the first century would have understood this, not connecting it to some book that had not yet been written.

You stated>> While you say that the Seals are not chronologically prior to the Trumps and Vials, in fact LaHaye, Ice and Hitch*****, in their works, do posit the seals prior to the Trumpets and Vials. See Charting the End Times, page 59f. There is no question about it.

me>> Yes, but what I said was "even though there are many Disp leaders who teach this." Because a Disp leader says this does not make it right. You have to look at the text. The book is not yet opened until after the 7th seal is broken, thus it cannot be taken as a series of chronological events but must be taken as an overview of what is to come. I personally think that this has led to more confusion in the futurist camp than any other issue because from this one misunderstanding we get our mid-trib, post-trib, and pre-wrath positions.

I'm not going to defend Ice or anyone else on the judgement against Jerusalem (just am I'm sure you don't defend every Preterist book you've ever read). If you like I could dig up some Dispensational writers who give a better perspective on this. Zechariah clearly states that 2/3 will die and 1/3 will repent and be brought through safely. It is this remnant that constitutes the salvation of Israel promised by the prophets. The rest will die from the judgement against them and this is how Paul can say that "all Israel will be saved" when ungodliness is removed from Jacob (Romans 11:26).

Roger

davecollins's picture

Don, You are the best voice Preterism could have! You just won't let them get away with unsound teachings.I'm praying that Christendom at large will one day care that what we've been fed for 160 yrs is specious at best,and down-right fraudulent at worse. What would it profit a man to publish millions in books, if the premise is false to begin with? Thanks for being a voice and a watchman on the wall. Your friend,dave

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